I wouldn't mind if they upped the damage and made it an actual AoE attack that, by the way, gives endurance.
Or is it supposed to be an end drain that, by the way, deals damage? It sucks either way.
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Something tells me you've been getting way too many PMs on this 
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That, and I'm getting cranky in my dottage. :P
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And here I thought I was being original with that PM...
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Five seconds after I read the burn normalization note, I thought to PM Castle about Consume, because its the obvious next thing. Ten seconds after I read the burn normalization note, I figured there was no point, because its a little too obviously next thing.
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What about Dark Consumption? It has damage, accuracy debuff, and end gain.
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Just damage and end gain. Neither DC nor Soul Drain have debuffs attached.
We'll always have Paragon.
One thing to be noted about this whole normalization of Edruance Leach powers, is not only the recharge. Consume does has the obvious gigantic difference there, but most of the powers give drastic different endurance gains and at drastically different endurance costs, those are all aspects that would require looking at if you do shoot for normalization. The side effects of the powers are the part that should be different, with ice causing slow and self def, fire doing damage, and energy/electric simply lowering the endurance of the target.
I can see how some powers may get what may be considered nerfs under such a normalization, in one way or another.
Well Consume doesn't actually suck, because I'd suspect that almost every Fire Tanker takes the power. On the basis of a necessity, it is one of the most important powers in FA, I think.
The problem is that it only partially alleviates one of Fire's biggest problems. With Consume, I can usually bring my bar back to full if I find even a small mob. So the End Modification isn't the issue. Within the 90 seconds (yes I have it 3-slotted), I will still run out of Endurance when I'm actually attacking constantly. And I have Stamina.
100 seconds would help Fire Tanks a lot...of course, still, just with offense. We also need a help with defense.
Powersink VS Consume VS Energy Absorption VS Dark Consumption
Stone/Electric Brute. I don't have to take Stamina because Powersink is an instant fill-up when I need one. In the case where I will only have one target for a while (vs AV/Hero) I can just hit Conserve Power and/or Power Surge and never worry about endurance.
Fire/Fire Tanker. I am forced to take Stamina to be efficient. Since Consume requires 4 enemies around me, and a to-hit check, every 90 secconds I may or may not have an endurance refill. This is unreliable.
Ice/Energy Tanker. I am forced to take Stamina to sustain my toggles. However, I have an auto-hit power that refills my endurance with about 3 enemies around me and gives me a massive defense boost.
Dark/Dark Brute. I'm forced to take Stamina to have endurance. In addition, I have stymied AoE damage because both of my AoE attacks are on a 120 seccond timer. One of these AoEs is an endurance heal power. I'm not sure whether or not to slot it for damage or drain. It already needs two accuracies and two recharges, so theres not much room for anything else.
Dark/Fire Brute. I don't need to take stamina, but I do anyhow. With two endurance recovery powers endurance problems are a thing of the past. I can afford to slot Dark Consumption for damage, but why bother. Its DPS is horrible. I can't figure out why a power like this is in an attack set.
I did this to show how practical these powers really are. Consume could get a buff, but then Dark Consumption would deserve one too. Buffing both of these powers would make Dark/Fire overpowered. But hey, since AR/Devices gets a synergy bonus other sets should too huh? Energy Absorption needs left alone. Sure, the power itself might be very strong, but the rest of the set is weak. This single power balances the set. Powersink/Energy Drain are powerful. Using these, you can get rid of stamina altogether. They are probably too strong, their drain is massive and they can keep your endurance sustained.
These powers really are not balanced. Given Primary/Seccondary combinations though, I can't see how they could possibly be balanced without some major changes.
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I wouldn't mind if they upped the damage and made it an actual AoE attack that, by the way, gives endurance.
Or is it supposed to be an end drain that, by the way, deals damage? It sucks either way.
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I'm convinced it's supposed to be the latter.
In either case, even if they made it do meaningful damage I'm not really interested in an AoE with a three minute base recharge. As long as it also recovers endurance it will likely never do big damage. So moderate damage at best on a 3 minute recharge? No thanks. I'd much rather it be primarily an end recovery power and actually do that well.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Consume could get a buff, but then Dark Consumption would deserve one too. Buffing both of these powers would make Dark/Fire overpowered.
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You make this bizarre statement in the same post where you admit that your Stone/Electric Brute has no end issues because of Conserve Power, Power Surge, and Power Sink? Are you saying that you feel /Electric is currently overpowered and lowering the recharge on Consume and DC would make a Dark/Fire Brute equally overpowered? Of course, regen scrappers then must also be overpowered, as well as /Energy Brutes.
I don't think the 2 end recovery powers a Dark/Fire Brute can get would make them overpowered even if they were both on a 1 minute timer.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Consume could get a buff, but then Dark Consumption would deserve one too. Buffing both of these powers would make Dark/Fire overpowered.
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Consume and Dark Consumption only "deserve" the same treatment if the presumption is that all endurance recovery powers everywhere have to be identical for balance purposes. But that is not the logic behind buffing consume (at least, it isn't mine). The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
Dark consumption does not specifically have the same issues as consume in that light. It does not underperform its peers just because its endurance management is inferior - almost the opposite.
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The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
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What about /Fire blaster's Consume? /Fire blasters fit into both of your justifications, as far as my experience goes. They suck down endurance to reach their potential and other blaster secondaries have endurance management powers as well.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
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What about /Fire blaster's Consume? /Fire blasters fit into both of your justifications, as far as my experience goes. They suck down endurance to reach their potential and other blaster secondaries have endurance management powers as well.
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The difference is, the Dark Melee set is a complete utility set, With Fear, Healing, AoE Buffage and AoE Damage that restores endurance. As is its quite a strong set and does not need any sort of extreme buffs to make it able to sustain massive endurance costs. Compared to Firey Aura that is still somewhat lacking with Resistances and Some Mez protection, boosting consume to be in line with other defensively based Endurance Restorative powers might not be such a bad idea.
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The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
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What about /Fire blaster's Consume? /Fire blasters fit into both of your justifications, as far as my experience goes. They suck down endurance to reach their potential and other blaster secondaries have endurance management powers as well.
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Fire blaster /Fire attacks aren't specifically designed to suck more endurance. There are more AoEs, which means they are only endurance-efficient when hitting multiple targets. Actually, giving endurance management to high-order AoE damaging things is counter-productive for balance. The devs can do whatever they want regarding /Fire consume, but it would be pointless to design AoEs to balance their endurance around a higher than 1.0 target-strike, then give out free endurance to sets with a lot of AoE attacks. That would be the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing, and shooting off its thumb with a pistol.
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<QR>
Haven't really read this thread so this may have already been mentioned.
I recently got consume and had some concerns about it's effectiveness as well. Certainly given the choice I'd rather have power sink but consume is still a good power. It has a 20 foot radius, which is really a big deal. Also the endurance cost of practically zero means you can use it even when at pretty much nothing. The low endurance cost also means that even if I use it against a single target I'm getting some endurance. It's not the type of power you should plan to use all the time to keep your end bar full but I anticipate that once slotted, I will love it even though it's not power sink.
Ian Moroe
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Consume could get a buff, but then Dark Consumption would deserve one too. Buffing both of these powers would make Dark/Fire overpowered.
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Consume and Dark Consumption only "deserve" the same treatment if the presumption is that all endurance recovery powers everywhere have to be identical for balance purposes. But that is not the logic behind buffing consume (at least, it isn't mine). The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
Dark consumption does not specifically have the same issues as consume in that light. It does not underperform its peers just because its endurance management is inferior - almost the opposite.
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Although even if they buffed dark consumption the dark/fire brute would not get more endurance management utility, than a dark/energy does now.
The true issue by boosting Dark consumption is that the power actually does a decent amount of damage, about twice as much damage as Consume, and Dark melee is [supposedly] balanced around minimal AoE damage potential.
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The logic behind buffing consume is that its in a defensive set, and specifically a defensive set that relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance with its peers on average, both for tankers and brutes. In many cases, that is because many of its peers have significant endurance recovery and/or endurance management also.
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What about /Fire blaster's Consume? /Fire blasters fit into both of your justifications, as far as my experience goes. They suck down endurance to reach their potential and other blaster secondaries have endurance management powers as well.
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Fire blaster /Fire attacks aren't specifically designed to suck more endurance. There are more AoEs, which means they are only endurance-efficient when hitting multiple targets. Actually, giving endurance management to high-order AoE damaging things is counter-productive for balance. The devs can do whatever they want regarding /Fire consume, but it would be pointless to design AoEs to balance their endurance around a higher than 1.0 target-strike, then give out free endurance to sets with a lot of AoE attacks. That would be the left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing, and shooting off its thumb with a pistol.
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I would also boost blaster fire consume, if simply because blaster /electric power sink also has a 60 second recharge timer. There is precedence that should this change happen, it should cover all versions of consume.
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Fire blaster /Fire attacks aren't specifically designed to suck more endurance.
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Is Healing Flames what you mean when you say that Fiery Aura relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance, or is it more than that? What is it about Fiery Aura that deserves more endurance than Fire Manipulation (I am not disagreeing, just curious as to your reasoning)?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Fire blaster /Fire attacks aren't specifically designed to suck more endurance.
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Is Healing Flames what you mean when you say that Fiery Aura relies on high endurance output to reach comparable performance, or is it more than that? What is it about Fiery Aura that deserves more endurance than Fire Manipulation (I am not disagreeing, just curious as to your reasoning)?
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There are a number of factors. Three of the tanker sets have a high cost damage aura: Fiery Aura, Stone, and Ice. Ice gets endurance recovery. Stone gets to eventually be granite, and outperform them all. FA gets neither massive tanking performance, nor endurance recovery to power all of its defenses continuously.
In addition, its performance only rivals the other sets when healing flames is spammed. That costs additional endurance: if slotted for maximum effectiveness (3heal/3rech) it can burn almost 0.5 eps. And when healing flames was buffed, it was simultaneously strengthened by increasing its heal (from 17.5% to 25%), and reducing its recharge (60 seconds to 40 seconds). Boosting the heal simultaneously boosts heal per second, and heal per endurance point, but reducing recharge only boosts heal per second, not heal per endurance point. So while the power was increased by a total of 114%, its heal per endurance point was only increased by 43%, and its endurance burn per second was actually increased.
In effect, not only does Fiery Aura burn more endurance for its performance, but the devs actually *increased* the endurance costs of the set by tying some of the buff to HF to higher endurance costs. The only justification for doing that would be that Fiery Aura was in danger of outperforming the other sets if it had too much endurance, but that's not even remotely true.
Fire manipulation does not share this property relative to its peers. It doesn't lag its peers in damage output unless it uses more endurance, and any deficiencies in the set (such as secondary effects) would not be resolved by having more endurance. The fact that they both have a power called "consume" or for that matter the fact that /Fire has significant endurance recovery at all is a coincidence, not I believe a signal that Fire manipulation is supposed to have vastly superior endurance management ability. From a game balance perspective, I believe fire manipulation consume has more in common with dark consumption than fiery aura consume.
There's a difference between being constrained by endurance costs, and being burdened by them. Dark armor is a set that can easily approach its peers without burning very much more endurance than them. But it can *exceed* its peers by burning *more*. That's a case where unlimited endurance would potentially unbalance the set, because endurance costs are what keep it within the rough performance range of its peers. But Fiery Aura is not like that: it doesn't outperform its peers but for the lack of endurance to do so.
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Dark armor is a set that can easily approach its peers without burning very much more endurance than them. But it can *exceed* its peers by burning *more*.
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How can Dark Melee exceed the other attack sets by burning more endurance?
EDIT: I should note that I believe Fire Manipulation can exceed the other blaster secondaries by burning more endurance, but they already sacrifice most of the protections the other secondaries provide for that benefit.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Dark armor is a set that can easily approach its peers without burning very much more endurance than them. But it can *exceed* its peers by burning *more*.
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How can Dark Melee exceed the other attack sets by burning more endurance?
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Theoretically, by slotting a lot of recharge and closing its attack chain gaps with very fast attacks, but that's not what I said in the original post you quote above: my example was Dark Armor, not Dark Melee, and has nothing to do with dark consumption per se.
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I would also boost blaster fire consume, if simply because blaster /electric power sink also has a 60 second recharge timer. There is precedence that should this change happen, it should cover all versions of consume.
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What he said. I think though we should take Castle at his word and let inventions come out and then open the floodgates folks.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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my example was Dark Armor, not Dark Melee, and has nothing to do with dark consumption per se.
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Ok, the example was just to illustrate the point that endurance can be and is used to balance sets.
Do the following statements bear any resemblance to your opinions? I may or may not agree with these statements myself, just trying to further discussion and gain a better idea of what people think.
Dark Consumption from Dark Melee has no counterpart in any Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker attack set, and Dark Melee has no particular reason to require higher than normal endurance in order to bring it on par with those other attack sets.
Fiery Aura Consume does have counterparts in other Brute, Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanker sets, and it also requires higher endurance use than many (if not all) other defense sets in order to bring it on par to those other sets.
Fire Manipulation Consume does have counterparts in other Blaster secondaries, but does not require higher endurance use than those other secondaries to bring it on par with those support sets.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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my example was Dark Armor, not Dark Melee, and has nothing to do with dark consumption per se.
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Ok, the example was just to illustrate the point that endurance can be and is used to balance sets.
Do the following statements bear any resemblance to your opinions? I may or may not agree with these statements myself, just trying to further discussion and gain a better idea of what people think.
Dark Consumption from Dark Melee has no counterpart in any Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker attack set, and Dark Melee has no particular reason to require higher than normal endurance in order to bring it on par with those other attack sets.
Fiery Aura Consume does have counterparts in other Brute, Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanker sets, and it also requires higher endurance use than many (if not all) other defense sets in order to bring it on par to those other sets.
Fire Manipulation Consume does have counterparts in other Blaster secondaries, but does not require higher endurance use than those other secondaries to bring it on par with those support sets.
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Rephrasing those statements as I would put them:
Dark Melee does not have a specific balance requirement to have significantly more endurance than other scrapper primaries, so the inclusion of dark consumption should be seen as a "nice to have" and not a "critical to balance." Therefore, there is no specific requirement for it to be any stronger or weaker than it currently is, because its inclusion in the set is specifically to be a unique benefit to the set.
Fiery Aura does appear to have issues related to its performance relative to its endurance consumption. Therefore, there is every reason to consider the overall endurance management ability of the set relative to its tanker and brute peers. Under those circumstances, its clear that taken as a whole, Fiery Aura has less endurance management capability than other sets with comparable performance, and less performance than sets with comparable endurance management capability. In some cases, it lags in both areas simultaneously.
Fire Manipulation appears similar to dark melee: its performance relative to its peers is not limited by endurance, and therefore like dark melee the presence of consume appears to be a "nice to have" unique benefit, not a "necessary for balance" component. As a result, just because it shares the same name with Fiery Aura consume, doesn't intrinsicly mean it should be balanced by the same criteria.
The devs *could* buff both FA consume and FM consume. But those buffs would have two different net results. The net result of buffing FA consume would be to equalize the imbalance between FA and other tanker and brute sets. The net result of buffing FM consume would be that /FM blasters would be getting a substantial endurance management tool "for free" as a secondary benefit of taking the FM secondary. It would be an out-of-balance addition similar to the DoT damage of Fire attacks (which are considered "secondary effects" by the devs that are not explicitly balanced for in the same way as base damage when designing the various attack sets).
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The net result of buffing FM consume would be that /FM blasters would be getting a substantial endurance management tool "for free" as a secondary benefit of taking the FM secondary.
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Is that what Power Sink in Electric Manipulation is?
I am pretty confident that when Blazing Aura and Hot Feet are on, and with the occasional use of Fire Sword Circle, the Fire Manipulation secondary will use more endurance than the other secondaries (using just those 3 powers will probably use more end than anything the other blaster secondaries can muster). Will they use more endurance per bad guy killed though? That I am not so sure about, and really that is what matters I guess. It is entirely possible that since Fire Manipulation kills so quickly, endurance issues are an important balance mechanism to slow it down.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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my example was Dark Armor, not Dark Melee, and has nothing to do with dark consumption per se.
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Ok, the example was just to illustrate the point that endurance can be and is used to balance sets.
Do the following statements bear any resemblance to your opinions? I may or may not agree with these statements myself, just trying to further discussion and gain a better idea of what people think.
Dark Consumption from Dark Melee has no counterpart in any Brute, Scrapper, Stalker, or Tanker attack set, and Dark Melee has no particular reason to require higher than normal endurance in order to bring it on par with those other attack sets.
Fiery Aura Consume does have counterparts in other Brute, Stalker, Scrapper, and Tanker sets, and it also requires higher endurance use than many (if not all) other defense sets in order to bring it on par to those other sets.
Fire Manipulation Consume does have counterparts in other Blaster secondaries, but does not require higher endurance use than those other secondaries to bring it on par with those support sets.
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Rephrasing those statements as I would put them:
Dark Melee does not have a specific balance requirement to have significantly more endurance than other scrapper primaries, so the inclusion of dark consumption should be seen as a "nice to have" and not a "critical to balance." Therefore, there is no specific requirement for it to be any stronger or weaker than it currently is, because its inclusion in the set is specifically to be a unique benefit to the set.
Fiery Aura does appear to have issues related to its performance relative to its endurance consumption. Therefore, there is every reason to consider the overall endurance management ability of the set relative to its tanker and brute peers. Under those circumstances, its clear that taken as a whole, Fiery Aura has less endurance management capability than other sets with comparable performance, and less performance than sets with comparable endurance management capability. In some cases, it lags in both areas simultaneously.
Fire Manipulation appears similar to dark melee: its performance relative to its peers is not limited by endurance, and therefore like dark melee the presence of consume appears to be a "nice to have" unique benefit, not a "necessary for balance" component. As a result, just because it shares the same name with Fiery Aura consume, doesn't intrinsicly mean it should be balanced by the same criteria.
The devs *could* buff both FA consume and FM consume. But those buffs would have two different net results. The net result of buffing FA consume would be to equalize the imbalance between FA and other tanker and brute sets. The net result of buffing FM consume would be that /FM blasters would be getting a substantial endurance management tool "for free" as a secondary benefit of taking the FM secondary. It would be an out-of-balance addition similar to the DoT damage of Fire attacks (which are considered "secondary effects" by the devs that are not explicitly balanced for in the same way as base damage when designing the various attack sets).
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When you speak about FM consume for blasters and say looking at other sets in its category the buffs not needed to balance or that it is more of a bonus then to off set endx costs I say incorrect.
FM has 2 very heavy endx toggles (/Elec has 1) so if the balance is in regards to offsetting the heavy endx costs in such a set... well fire would be more worthy then /elec.
Both hot feet and blazing aura are part of FM and to say it does not appear to be limited by endx is bogus. It is only not limited by endx if you specifically skip the powers that drain it... Which by that rationale nothing is limited by endx for you can skip all their powers too. To ague otherwise would to be to somewhat imply blasters (or at least a */FM) are not designed to battle in melee, thus their melee toggles are only bonus, to which I would disagree with too.
Buffing FM consume does not get FM any advatage over other sets, what it does allow is for them to use the powers they do get without having a empty endx bar.
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Weren't we trying to lower Consume a little so it balances along with the other End Recharge powers? Especially due to the fact that that's basically all it does, no debuffs or anything.
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Yeah... I kinda mentioned that, especially in the post right above the one you quoted?
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA