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For those of you remember the CoV End of Beta event with the signature heroes battling all the players, we found a very curious problem during that event: It quickly became completely impossible to know who/where your target was. There were so many characters taunting continuously, that it was not only not fun, but essentially not playable.
So, we are trying to make sure that Taunt Ping Pong doesn't become a major concern in PvP. We want Gauntlet to be a bonus which helps, but it is not meant to replace Taunt or related powers.
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I don't think this is anything to worry about in actual play. How often are you going to have a situation where you have hundreds of players vs one or two, as you did then? Which is what gave you the 'ping pong' effect.
Anyway, if you have a Target box you can see what your target is, and if you press F to follow them you can go right to them. It just can't possibly be that hard as you describe it except when you're being re-taunted by so many people and outnumbered so drastically.
But in a real pvp if you were that badly outnumbered, you would be defeated so fast AND SHOULD BE, that it would hardly matter what your target was -- only because of the devs having special characters designed to fight hundreds of players at once was that not the case in the beta.
So that is a really bad reason to give tankers a poor quality gauntlet. If you're being punched by four tankers at the same time you SHOULD be a bit confused as to your targets 
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For those of you remember the CoV End of Beta event with the signature heroes battling all the players, we found a very curious problem during that event: It quickly became completely impossible to know who/where your target was. There were so many characters taunting continuously, that it was not only not fun, but essentially not playable.
So, we are trying to make sure that Taunt Ping Pong doesn't become a major concern in PvP. We want Gauntlet to be a bonus which helps, but it is not meant to replace Taunt or related powers.
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Firstly, is there no tech that would popup an additional targetting box (say drawn in purple squiggles) to identify the taunter? Secondly, add a purple icon on the compass to indicate the direction of the taunter. Thirdly, use Confuse technology to direct all attacks to the taunter.
The reasoning is that the character is being explicitly called out, so it follows that the player should have full indication of who is the target of the character's rage. It would also follow that since the character is focused on only the taunter, all attacks will be auto-targeted.
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That's an acceptable answer. Sometimes I forget you're more responsive then other devs.
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you guys do realize that the other devs doesn't let _castle_ sit in the same launch table at the cafeteria right?
_castle_ has to sit down alone by himself...except when cuppa is feeling nice.
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And Cuppa is out to E3.
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And CuppaJo works for the publisher and not the studio, and the US headquarters of the publisher is in Texas, and the studio is in California.
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If the "taunt ping-pong" isn't acceptable as a tactic to use in PvE, then why isn't getting multiple Assassin Strikes within a few seconds? After all, we really don't have any defense against three or four stalkers coordinating their AS to hit at the same time. Why can't tanks use group tactics with other tanks?
Now it seems that only damage will cause an interrupt in a stalker's AS. Well, I can certainly tell you this...getting hit with three AS by coordinated stalkers time and time again isn't fun, either.
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Exactly.
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What do you mean 'exactly'?! This is apples to oranges in comparison. Stalkers don't have nearly the hitpoints or defense a tank has, and honestly, if the tank is seriously talking about being able to survive 3 assassin strikes simultaneously.. they need to have their head checked.
Ping-pong taunt is NOTHING like an AS. An AS you can heal up from, and only goes off once (maaaaaaybe twice) during a fight, meanwhile you could taunt until you are blue in the face or the sun sets. There are plenty of resists for damage, but not nearly enough against taunt.
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For those of you remember the CoV End of Beta event with the signature heroes battling all the players, we found a very curious problem during that event: It quickly became completely impossible to know who/where your target was. There were so many characters taunting continuously, that it was not only not fun, but essentially not playable.
So, we are trying to make sure that Taunt Ping Pong doesn't become a major concern in PvP. We want Gauntlet to be a bonus which helps, but it is not meant to replace Taunt or related powers.
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I don't think this is anything to worry about in actual play. How often are you going to have a situation where you have hundreds of players vs one or two, as you did then? Which is what gave you the 'ping pong' effect.
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The number of players wasn't the cause of the problem. That problem probably wouldn't have been obvious with normal PvP play except after a lot of playtime, or if had occured to someone. The number of players brought that problem to light and very quickly. A saying from the software development world is that all bugs are shallow with many eyes.
And that issue did happen to me during the PvP testing session during CoV beta. My Villains got taunted, and with the number of player around me I didn't know who did it. So I couldn't respond. And it never occured to me then or afterwards that is was a problem.
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As to why it's differnent for different powers, that does make sense if you consider the that endurance cost is directly linked to recharge time - powers that occur more often should have a lower chance to active, not only from a thematic stance (I can't see someone being more likely to decide you're a bigger threat than a Blaster because of a Jab or Barrage, compared to Energy Transfer), but from a balance viewpoint. Higher endurance/recharge time powers keep their validity in a Taunting viewpoint, as opposed to if they all had the same flat rate (thus making low-endurance/recharge attacks the only valid choices).
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See, but it doesn't make sense, because (as you in your earlier post later eluded too - it just took me a while to parse that you had two ideas that got merged into one textually), and see my Taunt Guide for reference, duration of the Taunt on powers is already designed to rougly follow the Endurance costs. Therefore its already moderated, and it doesn't need to be moderated twice. You either give them varying times, or you give them varying chances, you don't need both.
And again I have no problem with Taunt not firing 100% of the time, I do having it not fire at a consistent rate, because its already moderated in duration.
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I really don't think it works that way. If someone was so powerful that you had to disable part of their abilites for PvP, that doesn't necessarily justify a secondary buff. You reduce things if they are too powerful, and increase them if they underperform, not because you 'should'.
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You still make sure that all similar powers are roughly equivalent in use. And you don't just do this in PvE, you make sure it translates to PvP. And we're talking about Inherent powers here. Ignoring badly broken inherents like Defiance, do any other Inherents function at somewhere between 7% and 40% of its PvE effectiveness in PvP? Answer no.
For example, in PvE Critical Hit works out to somewhere between 6.67% once you average it out. How Gauntlet functions in PvP would be the same as Critical Hit working between 0.467% and 2.67% in PvP. Or Containment only working between 7% and 40% of the time. etc.
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And what would you ask for? A containment-like system that increased damage against Taunted targets? Tankers certainly don't need more damage - their current values are problematic enough from a balance viewpoint. Decreased incoming damage from Taunted targets? With Tanker defenses only getting dropped by Domination-buffed Dominators, the act of taunting itself should cause that.
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There are only 2 inherent powers that do not give a damage bonus: Gauntlet and Vigilance. Why would it be so bad to allow for Tankers to get a bonus on Taunted targets? Or Defenders to get a damage bonus when their team members are injured? Certainly there's room for this, especially in PvP. Especially since Taunt itself requires a to-hit roll in PvP, and Gaunlet is working so infrequently.
Now if everyone else's inherents were similarly gutted in PvP, I wouldn't be asking for such a thing. But instead we see the devs bending over backwards to give Stalkers a high degree of flexibility with their inherent power, both in PvP and PvE.
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I meant the high-end powers with Gauntlet active... it was supposed to be a secondary statement having little to do with the statement on BA/RotP/Icicles except that the value for Gauntlet needs to be increased for them. For example, I assume KO Blow/Energy Transfer/Total Focus/Seismic Smash are the powers at ~40% Gauntlet activation. Due to their long recharge, I think that 40% really isn't enough.
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This is why I think you gate by either duration or chance, you don't do both. If it were gated by duration then your attack chain would drive your chances to maintain Taunt through attacking, and not random chance. Especially since random chance is already factored in by the fact that you need to already hit something for Gauntlet to work.
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It may be required, since the listed balance mechanism (endurance) isn't really applicable to them. It may also be working as designed, so that using RotP against enemies with mez protection won't instantly be forced turn and kill you again (the 'invulnerability' RotP is supposed to give is spotty at best in PvE, and worse in PvP).
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Correction, Castle specifically indicated that endurance is not the mechanism, its the guideline. The actual mechanism is separate.
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Tanker, Scrapper and Brute Taunt powers will now accept Accuracy Enhancements. Note that these enhancements will have no effect in PvE, as the powers automatically hit PvE targets. The change is made strictly for PvP purposes.
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Wow. So now, with builds as tight as they are, we have to decide if our build is pvp or pve even moreso than before! 
Very bad idea. I urge you to go back to the drawing board on this one.
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Exactly, as if chances of breaking your toon by selecting the bad powers were not high enough and thus require your players to be expert at designing builds, you are requesting people to make the decision between a PvE and a PvP build.
Target flip-flop due to multiple taunts should be a valid strategy for a team.
Willing to counter everything just makes the PvP very dull and uncreative.
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Target flip-flop due to multiple taunts should be a valid strategy for a team.
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Sure, then Stalkers should get a % chance to placate with each hit they get as well, scaling with the amount of endurance it costs as a guildline. It works essentially the same, except in reverse. AFter about 5 or 6 hits, you shouldn't be allowed to hit the stalker again, and have to beat on something else. Oh, and make placate AoE instead of single target.
any chance at all of getting the AOE on Taunt upped to 17, or 10 instead of 5? 
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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Target flip-flop due to multiple taunts should be a valid strategy for a team.
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Sure, then Stalkers should get a % chance to placate with each hit they get as well, scaling with the amount of endurance it costs as a guildline. It works essentially the same, except in reverse. AFter about 5 or 6 hits, you shouldn't be allowed to hit the stalker again, and have to beat on something else. Oh, and make placate AoE instead of single target.
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Seriously? Stalkers should get a chance to AoE placate and pull off AS at their leisure because MULTIPLE tanks might be able to prevent ONE person from doing anything but RUN AWAY or ATTACK THE TANK?
Think about that for a second...
-Taunt provides the tank with no extra bonuses, it just stops you from completely ignoring them.
-Taunt can still be broken by RUNNING AWAY or killing the tank (yes, it's quite possible in a team setting).
-At most, I'd say two tanks could "Ping-Pong" one person with any consistant success, and even then you're fighting with a 1:2 ratio, as such that one person should be hightailing it or dead.
Its only viability is in a team setting, and in that case it would be one or two tanks doing what they were made to do (protect the squishies from the most dangerous opposition) or a team full of tanks ping-ponging only half the opposing team... leaving the other half to slaughter them.
If the odds were better, (IE 2 tankers being able to lock half a team between them using multiple taunts) then it might be overpowered, but really, it's not like a hold... you can run away, wait till it wears off, get out of the taunt's AoE range, use a power, call a friend... there's enough options available in a team setting where ping-ponging with taunt is a worthless strategy in an even team setting.
The only time this might be "overpowered" would be in a drastically skewed match, like a 2 on 1 (or more) setting, and in such a case it SHOULD be a worthwhile tactic.
As a side note, you could give break frees some taunt resistance if buffing up taunt feels dangerous (Even though people would be stupid to use it to break out of taunt, when you can just back around a corner... ).
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Target flip-flop due to multiple taunts should be a valid strategy for a team.
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Sure, then Stalkers should get a % chance to placate with each hit they get as well, scaling with the amount of endurance it costs as a guildline. It works essentially the same, except in reverse. AFter about 5 or 6 hits, you shouldn't be allowed to hit the stalker again, and have to beat on something else. Oh, and make placate AoE instead of single target.
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Seriously? Stalkers should get a chance to AoE placate and pull off AS at their leisure because MULTIPLE tanks might be able to prevent ONE person from doing anything but RUN AWAY or ATTACK THE TANK?
Think about that for a second...
-Taunt provides the tank with no extra bonuses, it just stops you from completely ignoring them.
-Taunt can still be broken by RUNNING AWAY or killing the tank (yes, it's quite possible in a team setting).
-At most, I'd say two tanks could "Ping-Pong" one person with any consistant success, and even then you're fighting with a 1:2 ratio, as such that one person should be hightailing it or dead.
Its only viability is in a team setting, and in that case it would be one or two tanks doing what they were made to do (protect the squishies from the most dangerous opposition) or a team full of tanks ping-ponging only half the opposing team... leaving the other half to slaughter them.
If the odds were better, (IE 2 tankers being able to lock half a team between them using multiple taunts) then it might be overpowered, but really, it's not like a hold... you can run away, wait till it wears off, get out of the taunt's AoE range, use a power, call a friend... there's enough options available in a team setting where ping-ponging with taunt is a worthless strategy in an even team setting.
The only time this might be "overpowered" would be in a drastically skewed match, like a 2 on 1 (or more) setting, and in such a case it SHOULD be a worthwhile tactic.
As a side note, you could give break frees some taunt resistance if buffing up taunt feels dangerous (Even though people would be stupid to use it to break out of taunt, when you can just back around a corner... ).
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You stress that this is in a team situation and then fail to take into consideration what your teammates would be doing in the process. All it would take is 2 tanks and a controller and any team could be easily decimated. Tank 1 gets down to half health, Controller snares/AoE holds, those that aren't hit with it are taunted off tank1 by tank 2, tank 1 heals up/gets healed, tank 1 taunts off of tank 2, controller holds/sleeps/confuses any who aren't taunted.. rinse repeat, dead team of anything. And the ducking behind a building is not an option, because if it is the healer that is taunted (of which there are very few in CoV) they will no longer be able to heal. If it is a brute or a stalker, there goes the DPS to take out a tank, and if it is a dominator.. who am I kidding, nobody PvPs with a dominator.
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There are plenty of resists for damage
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Not AS damage.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
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There are plenty of resists for damage
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Not AS damage.
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AS can't 1-shot a tank.
General Thoughts:
Well, as anticipated, they're really struggling with how to implement this. The problem is simple...to do it in a way that is effective for tanks is uber-annoying to play against and will tick of the rest of the user base. It's simply easier to screw tanks.
Taunt is roughly comparable to Detention Field or Sonic Cage in the "annoying-factor". Except you can be hit while in it, which sucks even worse. So, yeah, I always predicted they would either overshoot and nerf this or make it a relatively ineffective change. Like stalkers, really binary stuff like this is going to either really work or really NOT.
(someone mentioned this not applying to big attacks...I can't seem to confirm this and I'm kind of tired of piecing it together from various patch notes and stuff. Can someone confirm if I have this right atm? Basicly the % chance to taunt is going off the endurance cost of an attack. It does not affect any auravokes or powers such as burn. It is, theoreticly, working on our ranged attack powers, even though it was recently found that PvE gauntlet does not work on those powers. This punchvoke will still be subject to the "run away/hide behind a rock" breaking of the Taunt affect that the taunt power itself is being subjected to. Duration on the punchvoke is unknown at this time, and it is also unknown if slotting for pve punchvoke in attacks will enhance the duration of pvp punchvoke. IE, I could definately see a way of slotting Stun with 3 acc/mez and 3 taunt durations and opening every fight with that.)
My ultimate suggestion for Tanks and making a lot of other stuff more fun in pvp is this:
Make some secondary effects un-resistable. Now, before you all crap your pants and hit the reply button without reading, let me explain some...
1st, we have this rather odd issue of having many of the pve secondary effects being rather worthless in pvp. Knockbacks in particular, thanks to Accrobatics and the uber-common Leaping pool. Leaping, btw, wouldn't be so over-used if it weren't so over-powered in our current enviroment, but we'll talk about that another day.
Of all the melee sets, only EM/DM/Elec/Fire don't use a secondary effect that is commonly resisted in pvp, which is interesting, since they're ALSO the least-resisted damage types in pvp. Compare them to: Mace/Axe/SS/Katana/BS/Claws/Stone, all of which do the ubiquitous S/L damage and all of which have their secondary, "control" aspects marginalized in pvp. Why it's fair for my stuns to work in pvp and not some other guys knockback has always been a mystery to me.
So we have a situation in which, through bad design, many of the more fun and interesting effects are ignored in pvp, and the Devs keep focusing on this "taunt" concept, which nobodies really wild about, but we'll all take in place of the jack-squat we get now.
I see this for blasters too. They're really wondering what to do now in pvp, with detoggling gone. I think killing detoggling was a great idea whose time had come, especially with the "team minded" pvp we're supposed to be enjoying. However, as has been noted, non-EM blasters aren't really performing that well. With their current HP, Aid self not getting fixed, the whole PFF+powerboost+aid self heal phenomenon, S/L shields, FoN, and Defiance, I'm not really feeling too badly for them in the high game. I don't want them to have a higher % of unresistable damage or to bring back toggle-dropping, but some kind of fun and interesting dynamic...for all blasters may be needed. I would propose making the early powers in the sets, like power thrust, bypass certain levels of protection as well...perhaps not to the point where they can affect a tank, but certainly to where they can another caster using acrobatics or a stalker or something. This would also function as an ghetto "anti-caster" ability like you see the mages in other games having...a controller can't hold you if you sent his a** ping-ponging around the map. There are already steps in place to prevent chain-knockbacking in pvp, I don't understand why it has to be so commonly resisted. With regards to other sets, that don't use KB, pick 1-2 powers and find a use for them. Devices, for example, already has the rather uber-usefull web grenade. Up Taser a bit and we're in the ballpark there, I think.
Said as much here and here.
Last question, to reflect on:
"Which is more fun to play against...an opponent whose strength can toss you into the air in an epic contest of might or a guy who hits you and you get a little red "taunted" on your screen and might as well send shots into the pavement for awhile?"
I know my answer.
Enough with grinding away at lame fixes. Tankers could use punchvoke too, it's a step in the right direction, but if you're going to leave it fairly compromised, give us that "something else" you mentioned too, eh? And help out all blasters, but especially non-EM ones in one stroke while you're at it.
Oh, one more thing...I guess the Devs had an issue with all the taunting going on in the end of beta event.
Well...when you guys are playing AV level critters surrounded by 20-30 players apiece.... "No duh" you'll get taunted a lot, just like any Giant Monster that spawns. It's definately effective damage mitigation, similar to two defenders coordinating to perma-cage one guy.
While I agree some kind of resistance to further taunting while you're already taunted in pvp would be ok, be sure to leave it alone for pve, eh?
I think taunt duration in pvp is low enough, and the % chance of being taunted low enough, that this should be a fairly back-burner priority. Frankly, even the chance of seeing 2 pvp tanks on one foe in pvp is a bit long to even be worrying about "ping ponging" at this moment...and isn't really any less annoying than being chain-held, which it only takes 1+1/2 a controller to do.
Would it not make sense to make it so the target can only attack taunters? This would kill the 'ping-pong' effect if done right.
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--If you don't like what I have to say, it was probably a typo you are refering to.
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Would it not make sense to make it so the target can only attack taunters? This would kill the 'ping-pong' effect if done right.
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That's too simple for them...they need to make it harder if possible, so they can come up with some elaborite slap-dash fix.
I call it "Occam's Lawnmower".
Up the cap Taunt effects to 10 and I'll be a happy tanker. PvP usage is going to be borked anyway, as it's hard to find a middle ground. 6 slotted taunts for taunt effect in i4 were too much. Now, they're significantly lower than what they used to be, and it's more like a perster than a taunt.
I don't mind the to hit checks on it, as long as the taunt ability is viable. If I can't hit some targets, they'll most likely be ones I'm not entirely concerned about (ie Ice Tankers/SR, etc). I just want to be able to pull off a target from attacking one of my teammates. After that, I really don't care what it does.
I think you're really mistaken in how you're looking at the changes, Lyte.
Furthermore, it's REALLY pushing Tanks to take Focussed Accuracy in PvP. It's really pretty lame when you have to do that to be able to perform your role in teams. Without it, even a slight to-hit debuff or +def on your opponents and you might as well just not press the Taunt button at all, save yourself a rooting 1s activation.
With Taunt as-is on Test, I will be advising people to skip it in my pvp guides. Just frees up another power choice for me, now.
Good job, Devs.
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Blue, I did not even request anything to happen 100% of the time. My point was more one of, why is 40% good for some powers, and for others its only 7%.
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Sorry about assuming you wanted it to work 100% of the time. It really did sound like that.
As to why it's differnent for different powers, that does make sense if you consider the that endurance cost is directly linked to recharge time - powers that occur more often should have a lower chance to active, not only from a thematic stance (I can't see someone being more likely to decide you're a bigger threat than a Blaster because of a Jab or Barrage, compared to Energy Transfer), but from a balance viewpoint. Higher endurance/recharge time powers keep their validity in a Taunting viewpoint, as opposed to if they all had the same flat rate (thus making low-endurance/recharge attacks the only valid choices).
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In fact, I agree with what you've said. However, last I checked, mezzers (primarily Controllers) get Containment to supplement the fact that they have mezzed.
I'm saying if you can't let it work 100% of the time, you should be providing something that makes up for the missing percentage.
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I really don't think it works that way. If someone was so powerful that you had to disable part of their abilites for PvP, that doesn't necessarily justify a secondary buff. You reduce things if they are too powerful, and increase them if they underperform, not because you 'should'.
Most Defenders, Corruptors, and Dominators, some Blasters, and, yes, even Tankers got hit by mez suppression, and that doesn't mean they need Containment or *should* get it. Containment only came around to solve the problem of low PvP damage invalidating solo or small-group controllers.
And what would you ask for? A containment-like system that increased damage against Taunted targets? Tankers certainly don't need more damage - their current values are problematic enough from a balance viewpoint. Decreased incoming damage from Taunted targets? With Tanker defenses only getting dropped by Domination-buffed Dominators, the act of taunting itself should cause that.
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I don't see why Blazing Aura and RotP don't benefit from Taunt, though, or Icicles. That seems unnecessary, and one of the strong points of RotP is that you can reclaim aggro after a death. Likewise, the high end for these probably need to go up unless their Taunt duration is extremely long - if these powers only recharge once every twenty seconds, you won't have a chance to use them twice when trying to help an ally.
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None of those powers are high End. BA and Icicles both had their End costs lowered significantly in I5. And RotP has no End Cost since you're dead when you use it and therefore have no End to spend. So I have no idea what you're trying to say in the last bit there.
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I meant the high-end powers with Gauntlet active... it was supposed to be a secondary statement having little to do with the statement on BA/RotP/Icicles except that the value for Gauntlet needs to be increased for them. For example, I assume KO Blow/Energy Transfer/Total Focus/Seismic Smash are the powers at ~40% Gauntlet activation. Due to their long recharge, I think that 40% really isn't enough. Chances are, anyone you want to protect will already be toasted by the time you get a second try. 60% or so would be decent for non-/em, probably ensure that at least one power activates Taunt during a decent attack chain. /Em's two big attacks probably would require a different and lower value, but together, they really should ensure a Taunt (a la 40% for Energy Transfer, 60% for Total Focus).
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I don't see why they don't Taunt either. I mean if Tremor, Whirling Hands, etc. Taunt, why can't other AoE damage powers.
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It may be required, since the listed balance mechanism (endurance) isn't really applicable to them. It may also be working as designed, so that using RotP against enemies with mez protection won't instantly be forced turn and kill you again (the 'invulnerability' RotP is supposed to give is spotty at best in PvE, and worse in PvP).