There seems to be a problem with the sheet's calculations. It was explicitly explained that the toHit calculations would cause foes to "floor" at 10% of their base chance toHit due to the internal second floor in the forumla. This does not seem to occur in the sheet - no matter the foes' base toHit, the sheet shows them flooring at 5% no matter their rank and level.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have never heard of such a thing. Please post a link to where a dev said that.
Also, every enemy's base to-hit chance is 50% as of I7.
50% x .1 = 5%
Either way you look at it, it's correct.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, every enemy's base to-hit chance is 50% as of I7.
50% x .1 = 5%
Either way you look at it, it's correct.
[/ QUOTE ]
Quizzles, that's simply not correct.
Foes of rank above minion have a higher accuracy. Foes of level difference above +0 have higher accuracy. There is known to be in internal floor. You can floor the internal quantity at 5%. This is then multiplied by their accuracy and again checked for the floor. Thus you cannot ever floor a boss at 5%. You would floor a boss at 6.5%, which is 10% of their 65% base.
The closest I could come was this. I know we were specifically shown floors in two places. I think it was by geko, but I do not remember for sure and am having trouble finding it.
The formula I saw looked like:
MAX[0.05,ACC*MAX[0.05,BTH-DEF]]
The spreadsheet does not represent this as far as I can see.
EDIT: Lower, in the same thread Arcanaville pointed us to the Ask Geko thread. This is why I couldn't find it. It was in CuppaJo's name.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
What's a .xls?
Bearing in mind that it's April 1st, I'll respond...
It's an MS Excel Spreadsheet.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
The accuracy formula looks like this:
[Base ToHit - (defense - defdebuffs) + (ToHitbuffs - ToHitdebuffs) maxmin 95,5] * (accuracy)
at which point the 95,5 max,min is again applied.
As of Issue 7 (which is what this sheet is made for), all enemies will have a Base ToHit of 50 regardless of rank or level. Instead, the accuracy modifier will be increased and decreased based upon level and rank.
You can get a boss down to 5% final accuracy, just never an even-lvl one. They have 2 accuracy modifiers, one for level and one for rank, that are multiplied together. The accuracy modifier for level goes below 1 when an enemy is a lower level than you. At some point, the rank modifier and the level modifier multiplied together will be equal to or less than 1.
So against a -3 boss, 50 defense would look like this:
[50 - (50) + (0)] * (.7330 (level modifier)*1.3(rank modifier))
^^^This gets hit by the minimum
[5]*(.9529)=4.7645
The minimum then brings that back up to 5
The level accuracy modifier is enough to drag the entire accuracy value below 1, making a 5% final accuracy possible.
Yes, I'll concede that a very low level mob can be floored at 0.05.
However, you are still ignoring the inner [0.05,0.95] clamp that is described by Geko. This clamp means that a mob will never be floored below (0.05 * accuracy modifiers). We can never debuff their accuracy, only their toHit. Because an even level boss has an accuracy modifier of 1.3, their miniumum toHit will be 1.3 * 0.05. or 0.065. This is what the sheet does not show. It allows us to floor their final toHit at 0.05, even for an even or higher-level boss. This is incorrect.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Wait, no it doesn't. Even if you input 15000000 defense, you will not get the sheet to report an even-lvl boss's final accuracy under 6.5%.
I did respect the lower clamps (the ones stopping it from going under 5%), that's why the formulas are so long and rife with IF statements.
I ignored the upper-end clamps (the ones stopping it from going over 95%) because they're largely irrelevant and I felt that the formulas were long and complicated enough.
The exact formula used:
=IF(IF((50-(L14+(M14*L46)))<5,(C14)*5,(50-(L14+(M14*L46)))*(C14))<5, 5, (IF((50-(L14+(M14*L46)))<5,(C14)*5,(50-(L14+(M14*L46)))*(C14))))
Where C14 is the accuracy modifier, M14 is the ToHit debuff, L14 is a defense value, and L46 is the level disparity power effect modifier.
OK, now I'm really confused. I did just that - had entered about 6 nines in for my toHit debuff, and I swear to you I got 5.00 all up and down the columns. I re-downloaded the sheet and now it's doing what we both expect. I wish I hadn't overwritten the original copy I had when I downloaded it. 
I want to know how I broke it like that.
Anyway, uh, carry on!
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Ummm... so now the sheet is right? Just wanna make sure. 
Yes, it's correct 
[ QUOTE ]
OK, now I'm really confused. I did just that - had entered about 6 nines in for my toHit debuff, and I swear to you I got 5.00 all up and down the columns. I re-downloaded the sheet and now it's doing what we both expect. I wish I hadn't overwritten the original copy I had when I downloaded it. I want to know how I broke it like that.
Anyway, uh, carry on!
[/ QUOTE ]
My copy is doing the same thing. I'll save it for you if you want. Haven't downloaded another copy yet.
Thanks for the spreadsheet, but I'm dense and I still can't visualize the difference between what we have now, to what is on test, to what we will have after the I7 defense scaling is put into place.
Would you or one of the other wizards be able to run a graph depicting those three scenarios with a power like Radiation infection?
Is it your contention that once the changes on test are added to the proposed defense scaling coding, that debuffers will be better, the same, or worse?
Hoping for a response and thanking you in advance for your help.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Ok, I made up 4 graphs that assume an enemy is being affected by a Radiation Infection that has been 3-slotted for ToHit Debuffs.
Graph 1- Final accuracies of the current live version
Graph 2- Final accuracies of the current test version
Graph 3- Final accuracies of Issue 7 with the proposed nerf
Graph 4- LT values of each set against each other (LT values fall in the middle, so it's a good comparison)
A bunch of graphs detailing the changes.
Am I correct in saying that, in Issue 7 (even with the nerf), To Hit debuffs will still be better? Or does that only hold true for Radiation Infection? What are the base numbers for RI? Would you mind doing a similar graph for Darkest Night? Pretty please?
Thanks a bunch Mr.Quizzles! It's folks like you that make this community great.
While the numbers might change depending on slotting, AT, and powers, I am guessing that the trend would be the same regardless. In fact, if the only variable you change is the tohit debuff, then I am positive that the graph lines would only slightly shift left or right but the trend would be exactly the same.
One less thing for me to worry about. Although the time period between the patch going live and I7 going live with the new Accuracy/Defense formula will be painful.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
What does it all mean man? All these numbers, wow man! And all this time I just thought throwing fireballs at stuff was my objective. You've enlightened me... :::Bows to the numbers god:::
[ QUOTE ]
Am I correct in saying that, in Issue 7 (even with the nerf), To Hit debuffs will still be better? Or does that only hold true for Radiation Infection? What are the base numbers for RI? Would you mind doing a similar graph for Darkest Night? Pretty please?
[/ QUOTE ]
That's why I made the trends graph. The base debuff for RI is 30%. Darkest Night is 18%. The graph would look almost the same for any other ToHit debuff, just without the bits where RI floors LT (just imagine the curve/line continuing on without hitting bottom).
It is a general improvement for all ToHit debuffs.
[ QUOTE ]
It is a general improvement for all ToHit debuffs.
[/ QUOTE ]
Great! Now I think you should add a dynamic graph creator to THE SHEET. Pretty please?
I would, but two things:
1. It would only ever be able to show the stats for a single defense/debuff value at one time. You'd never be able to compare, say, defense and debuffs. Every graph would look pretty much the same.
Defense vs Debuffs
2. Pilcrow's hosting it, and I don't want to bug him about uploading another version of it.
Oh dear, Statesman informed us of this little gem today:
[ QUOTE ]
In addition, higher ranks have an inherent resistance to To Hit Debuffs (.1 for Lts., .2 for Bosses, .3 for AVs).
[/ QUOTE ]
And with that, the sheet is incorrect as it currently stands. I have already made the appropriate corrections to my personal sheet, and I'll bug Pilcrow about getting it out to you guys as soon as possible.
This little tidbit of information makes ToHit Debuffs even worse than we originally thought.
Sorry for giving you false hope, everyone. I7 + this nerf means a general reduction in the effectiveness of ToHit debuffs.
If you want, I'll host it for you. It's tiny. Blast me a PM if Pilcrow is too busy to help you out.
Any chance you'll get the updated spreadsheet hosted, MrQuizzles? Or perhaps a revised graph similar to the one you produced before?
Good news!
The Updated Spreadsheet!
All values and formulas have been fixed.
When tried against Statesman's 2-slotted RI example, The Sheet matches Statesman's numbers almost exactly (the hundreths place is off, possibly due to rounding).
Also:
An updated graph that properly reflects the doom and gloom that is I7. As with the other graph, RI 3-slotted for ToHit debuffs is used for all debuff measurements, 40% defense is used for all defense measurements, and the values shown are against LTs.
This spreadsheet was originally created by Ladioss_Sopp some time ago, and it has been a great tool to use to help us calculate enemy accuracy and power effectiveness over a large spread of levels.
With the coming changes to enemy accuracy in Issue 7 this sheet would have been obsolete (his old sheet was actually working off the old assumption that to-hit debuffs were multiplicative, anyway). Ladioss hasn't been around in a while, so I have updated it to work with Issue 7.
So now I give you: The Sheet!
Using it is simple. Just type in the amount of defense or to-hit debuffing you have in either L4 or M4 respectively, and the sheet will calculate the final accuracy of enemies of all levels and ranks.
On it is also a handy recharge calculator and HP/healing sheet for heroes.
See the sheet.
Love the sheet.
Live the sheet.
And a thank you to Pilcrow for hosting the sheet.