So is regen gimped for stalkers or are people dumb
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2006-02-06 06:06 in Stalkers
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it's my cracked out conspiracy theory du jour. i think there is no castle or at least, he's a patsy set up the main man so they can play good cop/bad cop with us.
like i sad, cracked out.
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Yeah, I was just recalling the old days, the bad days when people accused random posters of being secret dev shills.
I was accused of that.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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Hrn. What are your methods of attack? Hit'n'Run/Open With AS or Scrap/Finish With AS?
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I'll normally try to open with an AS and then scrap. If I follow up with a placate i'll then use focus instead of AS. At that point too much is usually going on to get a successful AS off.
If I miss with the AS I'll sometimes scrap, even if the odds are not in my favor. I'll try to get a few licks in even if I know I can't take somebody out.
Focus with its knockdown works very well on an enemy that you can't get hit with an AS.
normally to get back into hide I will have to run. the def based scrapper sets may have a slightly easier time getting back into hide, but with a properly buffed up hero team attacking them they'll most like have to run as well.
I think this is pretty much what I'm going to have to resort to, now... Urgh. This isn't just a hit to my character. >/ It's a hit to my pride.
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it's my cracked out conspiracy theory du jour. i think there is no castle or at least, he's a patsy set up the main man so they can play good cop/bad cop with us.
like i sad, cracked out.
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Yeah, I was just recalling the old days, the bad days when people accused random posters of being secret dev shills.
I was accused of that.
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woohoo, me too. i think it was something to do with posts i made about whatever the latest regen nerf was not, in fact, actually signalling in the apocalypse.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲
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I'll probably be dropping Fast Healing and Dull Pain now, to pick up Assault and Tactics.
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You will be giving up your single most effective power, in the sense of the power that provides you the most benefit the highest percentage of the time. Only Integration's mez resistance has a bigger effect on your playability as a Regen Stalker.
3-slotted for heals, you can look at Dull Pain as the approximate equivalent of 37% damage resistance that can't be bypassed by anyone or anything. At the same time, it boosts your regen rate by 59%. Dull Pain plus Instant Healing, while not a combo you can have running all the time by any means, make a Regen Stalker, even with those Defender base HP, incredibly hard for almost any character to kill without a team. And they can't be detoggled.
If your goal is just to be a Stalker torpedo who goes in for the kamikaze kill, go nuts. I think you'll be hating life in PvE.
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Regen gets something: it gets to be regen. It will be easier to knock out of hide when this gets eventually fixed, but it has superior damage mitigation on average.
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With our below average HP, it gives as much mitigation as the +Def sets against enemies with high Acc.
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What Aracna said. Regen's peak raw mitigation capability is quite a bit beyond that of any of the other sets. It just can't have it all the time. And that's why it's no surprise to me that it gets the harder time with rehiding.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I have a regen/spine too. and i gotta tell you. This Bug was about the only thing that helped mitigate the fact that everything hits us. Now that it is going to be eventually removed? Regen is going to SUCK! Think about it......Everything hits you. Everything gets thru. Sure you can heal fast but your DMG now more thn any other AT will be castrated. You will be a Poverty struck Stalker version of a tank. Better resistance to dmg but crapier dmg than your rest of your bretheren. And that means having to rely more on not being seen, (and almost impossible feat now adays) and a prayer you get in time before you are actually seen to do your worst. We'll get no def. We'll be knocked out of hide more easily and a hell of a lot often than any other set. And we're essentially screwed. So even though it was not intended......REGEN get's screwed again!
NERF REGEN!
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So wait, im kinda confused by all of this.
So what your telling me that if you went into auto-hide the exact same time that Dull Pain went off, you would never lose HIDE effect?
And on the same note, if you were held or terroized the exact moment that Dull Pain went off you would be "forever" held or terroized?
Am I correct in this thinking?
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I don't think so... The way I understand it and have seen it work is you placate a mob and if they're winding up for an attack or something else is and hits you after you've hidden it doesn't bring you out of hide when dull pain is on.
But I dunno, maybe auto hide doesn't break either when dull pain is on. I rarely go on streaks where the enemy misses me enough for that to happen anyways.
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I do pretty good in pvp.
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Just a question. Is that with or without the assistance of Dull Pain's bug? I know for a fact that I'm now easy bait for */Dev Blasters TPing me into Mines. With the bug, I could be TPed onto the caltrops and walk off without a scratch due to Hide sticking.
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In PvP I've dueled Nin stalkers and beat them. I have taken on things that they can't because they can't stay in the fight long enough if their lvl 38 power hasn't recharged yet. Do I use the DP bug? No. I dont' need to. Once I do my initial AS, I can stay in the fight and scrap until the opponent(s) are defeated or run. And yes, I said, that is plural as in more then 1. And as far as TPing into mines? with DP, IH, and reconstructions. Out of the 3 times that it EVER happened to me, I survived 1. Not only did I survive, but I had IH running and healed myself enough that I could finish of the guy that TPed me.
And back my what I said originally, does this mean one is better then the other? No. All it means is that you have a different playing style. You can be in more fights more often and you can jump into fights that good Nin stalkers would know to avoid. The downside? If theres more then 1 player, placating and re-ASing is almost impossible. For Nin its still very hard, but feasible. Again, different play styles. Youre sacrificing a chance for a follow-up AS in some situation for a lot more defensive capabilities.
Rehiding and ASing only works some of the times for other sc
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You will be giving up your single most effective power, in the sense of the power that provides you the most benefit the highest percentage of the time. Only Integration's mez resistance has a bigger effect on your playability as a Regen Stalker.
3-slotted for heals, you can look at Dull Pain as the approximate equivalent of 37% damage resistance that can't be bypassed by anyone or anything. At the same time, it boosts your regen rate by 59%. Dull Pain plus Instant Healing, while not a combo you can have running all the time by any means, make a Regen Stalker, even with those Defender base HP, incredibly hard for almost any character to kill without a team. And they can't be detoggled.
If your goal is just to be a Stalker torpedo who goes in for the kamikaze kill, go nuts. I think you'll be hating life in PvE.
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The reason I'd be dropping Fast Healing and Dull Pain is because DP is going to become virtually useless to me and I need two power selections, if I'm going to pick up two other powers.
I killed Regen Scrappers, Invuln Tankers, and Dwarf form Kheldians for the sole fact that I could re-Hide while they were hitting me, to get that extra burst damage (and chance to AS, if they couldn't interrupt it) before I ran out of Endurance. Without that extra damage, I'm just whittling away at an armored vehicle with a toothpick (as I'm not Energy Melee). I guess this is just the game's way of telling me that I'm meant to scavenge for squishies like the rest of the Stalker population.
To me, just because something gives you bounty and reputation doesn't mean it's worth the effort. Heck... do you think I'd only have 200 rep, if I were picking off Blasters, Defenders, and Controllers like the rest?
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And that's why it's no surprise to me that it gets the harder time with rehiding.
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Even WITH Dull Pain's bug, it's not as easy re-Hiding, simply because Dull Pain can't be up all the time. Now, it's like "Yay. I can delay the inevitable, but not actually kill anything worth killing!"
Yes, I'm a bit crazed and semi-irrational, here. I'm losing my playstyle and pride (as a hunter) with this change. Why would I react in any other manner?
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In PvP I've dueled Nin stalkers and beat them. I have taken on things that they can't because they can't stay in the fight long enough if their lvl 38 power hasn't recharged yet. Do I use the DP bug? No. I dont' need to.
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Well, yeah. I don't suspect that a Stalker would live too long after being ASed... I'm talking about the targets worth killing. The big guys.
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I have a regen/spine too. and i gotta tell you. This Bug was about the only thing that helped mitigate the fact that everything hits us. Now that it is going to be eventually removed? Regen is going to SUCK! Think about it......Everything hits you. Everything gets thru. Sure you can heal fast but your DMG now more thn any other AT will be castrated.
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My God. Cry "doom" much?
I didn't know this bug existed for 36 levels. The way I used Dull Pain (usually after my AS/Placate/crit and only if I was losing the resulting fight) directly prevented me from taking advantage of this big most of the time.
If you're playing on dial up or something, or you personally have the reflexes of a toaster, yeah, maybe you'll suck now. Otherwise you're radically exaggerating. I mean, really, what sort of planning and tactics do you use to fire your Placate? Have you ever even tried to fire it without Dull Pain as a crutch? Do you know how to wait for your PvP enemy to enter a long animation? Do you understand how the PvE AI works, and what its attack patterns tend to look like? If you don't, then try learning, just like I did. You might save yourself foolishly restarting a character you alreadly liked.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I killed Regen Scrappers, Invuln Tankers, and Dwarf form Kheldians for the sole fact that I could re-Hide while they were hitting me
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It sounds to me like the difference here is that you didn't need to use any tactics at all about how you fired your placate. There are very few powersets in the game that can attack you so fast, so constantly, that you can't get off a placate and a fast attack during an animation. My experience is that, once an enemy starts an attack animation, if you placate them during that attack's animation then that attack's damage does not break hide. The difference is its' not going to be guaranteed because you could misjudge the timing. Nor should it be guaranteed, because it's not for the defense sets, either. But what they have to do based on luck, you actually get a chance to control through timing.
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(and chance to AS, if they couldn't interrupt it)
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I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where you have the liberty of firing an AS on a foe (which DP did nothing to make easier) but they could break your hide.
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Yes, I'm a bit crazed and semi-irrational, here. I'm losing my playstyle and pride (as a hunter) with this change. Why would I react in any other manner?
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My recommendation, especially since you've got a whole stable of Stalkers: wait and see. Maybe you really won't like it. I'm willing to be you will find a way to adapt.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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It sounds to me like the difference here is that you didn't need to use any tactics at all about how you fired your placate.
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It's not timing Placate that's a problem... Placate DOES NOT count as re-Hiding during combat. SR re-Hides during combat. Ninjitsu re-Hides during combat. Energy Aura re-Hides during combat. With the Dull Pain bug, you can sit around, taking the hits and re-Hide as long as you don't attack. It has NOTHING to do with Placate.
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I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where you have the liberty of firing an AS on a foe (which DP did nothing to make easier) but they could break your hide.
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Imagine what a Super Reflexer could do. Not attack for 7-8 seconds and, as long as they weren't hit, re-Hide on the spot. NO PLACATE INVOLVED. That is what I'm talking about with Dull Pain. Instead of Scrapping away at their resistances and heals, I could re-Hide by taking their hits, (in some cases) hoping they don't kill me, and not attacking. In which, I could then AS (if they didn't fire off an AoE or hit me with something else). The Dull Pain bug was a knockoff of being able to dodge attacks to re-Hide WITHOUT Placate.
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My recommendation, especially since you've got a whole stable of Stalkers: wait and see. Maybe you really won't like it. I'm willing to be you will find a way to adapt.
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If I really don't like it, I'll be doing the same thing other people have done when they found they couldn't play to their style. Delete the character and make one that DOES fit the playstyle. This isn't like my Regen Scrapper where all the Regen changes and adjustments rolled off my back like water. Those were nothing to complain about, in my opinion. This change directly affects my "I don't care if I'm seen. Hidden status is merely for criticals." playstyle.
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I have a regen/spine too. and i gotta tell you. This Bug was about the only thing that helped mitigate the fact that everything hits us. Now that it is going to be eventually removed? Regen is going to SUCK! Think about it......Everything hits you. Everything gets thru. Sure you can heal fast but your DMG now more thn any other AT will be castrated. You will be a Poverty struck Stalker version of a tank. Better resistance to dmg but crapier dmg than your rest of your bretheren. And that means having to rely more on not being seen, (and almost impossible feat now adays) and a prayer you get in time before you are actually seen to do your worst. We'll get no def. We'll be knocked out of hide more easily and a hell of a lot often than any other set. And we're essentially screwed. So even though it was not intended......REGEN get's screwed again!
NERF REGEN!
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Can't you just break line-of-sight?
Sailboat
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
----------------------------------------------------------
The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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I have a regen/spine too. and i gotta tell you. This Bug was about the only thing that helped mitigate the fact that everything hits us. Now that it is going to be eventually removed? Regen is going to SUCK! Think about it......Everything hits you. Everything gets thru. Sure you can heal fast but your DMG now more thn any other AT will be castrated. You will be a Poverty struck Stalker version of a tank. Better resistance to dmg but crapier dmg than your rest of your bretheren. And that means having to rely more on not being seen, (and almost impossible feat now adays) and a prayer you get in time before you are actually seen to do your worst. We'll get no def. We'll be knocked out of hide more easily and a hell of a lot often than any other set. And we're essentially screwed. So even though it was not intended......REGEN get's screwed again!
NERF REGEN!
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Can't you just break line-of-sight?
Sailboat
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There are a lot of things one can do. It apears that the biggest problem people are having is that with regen you can't sit in the middle of a fight, not do anything, and re-hide since nothing is hitting you.
Only thing that I'd have a problem with is if there are multiple badies (PvP or PvE) if I placate one of them, I have a much lower chance to do another AS vs +Def based stalker. In my PvP experience, when I fight with or against Nin's most of the time they hit, do 1 follow up and run for the hills trying to heal as they run. Why? because +def on that set isn't that good due to all the other toys that set gets. Where am I with my regen stalker when this happens? finishing off my first target and starting on my 2nd, when I lower their health a bit, placate and AS and they're dead. Unless there's more then 2 in this instance so I just scrap, that 2nd target runs away, leaving me to placate and AS the 3rd one. Can Nin do that? In some rare circumstances yet, always? no. Regen can. and bug or not, DP is one of the best powers for stalkers. Stalkers have very little health compared to other melee chars. DP turns a stalker into a scrapper with placate, hide and AS. And that is a nasty scrapper.
They talk and talk about Gambler's Cut double crit'n as a feature. Last patch it got "Adjusted".
So, It seems that things that get talked about enough on the boards get looked at for adjustments. Just keep that in mind, when talking about "Features" in the future.
Ah well.. we can all just be SR stalkers with lots of greens and purples.
I am tired of having to reroll my stalker. This "feature" was the one thing that made sence to me. Why is it that other AT's get features, and we get bugs?? 
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Can Nin do that? In some rare circumstances yet, always? no. Regen can. and bug or not, DP is one of the best powers for stalkers. Stalkers have very little health compared to other melee chars. DP turns a stalker into a scrapper with placate, hide and AS. And that is a nasty scrapper.
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No, but a /SR can, and they can even take out more, beacuse they dont get hit. They dont have to run, because they are not taking any damage.
Where are they... Probably starting on there 3rd mob by then, getting ready for the 4th
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It's not timing Placate that's a problem... Placate DOES NOT count as re-Hiding during combat. SR re-Hides during combat. Ninjitsu re-Hides during combat. Energy Aura re-Hides during combat. With the Dull Pain bug, you can sit around, taking the hits and re-Hide as long as you don't attack. It has NOTHING to do with Placate.
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If you are waiting, inactive, for the 10 seconds it takes to rehide, then you are flatly wasting incredible damage potential. I mean, the example we're looking at here is the one of facing melee foes, so it's not as if they're Blasters off pelting you while you try to rehide (which is a tough problem). It makes no sense to me to stand around and wait for a natural re-hide to achieve double damage on an attack. For an AS I could see it, because at an equivalent BI of 19.4 you might not be able to deliver equivalent damage in 10 seconds. But for a standard crit?
If anything the change in combat style this requires is going to increase your DPS. That is unless I completely don't understand something you're doing. Because I can't fathom why you want to rehide in this way if you can't use it to AS.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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DP turns a stalker into a scrapper with placate, hide and AS. And that is a nasty scrapper.
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Until you notice that we have to sacrifice some attacks to fire off that crit, unlike a Scrapper. We also don't get the nice damage (well... maybe EM does) as regularly.
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Can Nin do that? In some rare circumstances yet, always? no. Regen can. and bug or not, DP is one of the best powers for stalkers. Stalkers have very little health compared to other melee chars. DP turns a stalker into a scrapper with placate, hide and AS. And that is a nasty scrapper.
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No, but a /SR can, and they can even take out more, beacuse they dont get hit. They dont have to run, because they are not taking any damage.
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Exaggerate much? Aim (or Build Up with toHit slotting) is sufficient to trump the entire benefit of the SR and Ninjitsu defense lines for 10 seconds, barring the activation of level 38 powers. You make it sound like that they can stand in the midst of enemy fire and can ignore it at will. It's flatly untrue.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Exaggerate much? Aim (or Build Up with toHit slotting) is sufficient to trump the entire benefit of the SR and Ninitsu defense lines for 10 seconds, barring the activation of level 38 powers. You make it sound like that they can stand in the midst of enemy fire and can ignore it at will. It's flatly untrue.
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You are talking about PvP, what about PvE?
Also what if SR takes a few purples? Does that not push there defence up??
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If you are waiting, inactive, for the 10 seconds it takes to rehide, then you are flatly wasting incredible damage potential. I mean, the example we're looking at here is the one of facing melee foes, so it's not as if they're Blasters off pelting you while you try to rehide (which is a tough problem). It makes no sense to me to stand around and wait for a natural re-hide to achieve double damage on an attack. For an AS I could see it, because at an equivalent BI of 19.4 you might not be able to deliver equivalent damage in 10 seconds. But for a standard crit?
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Some people fall for it, some don't. Most people I've run into, when they see their health at half and know I've already used my Placate and follow-up... they don't heal. I don't know why, but I guess they feel confident that I can't scrap them down fast enough. So, they don't hit that heal, just yet. That's why I wait for that crit. Even if it's a normal one. By the time they realize that I've just vanished, I'm already firing off the finishing blow faster than they can manage that heal.
When you play the helpless, incompetent Stalker, people get confident. It's a nice edge. While I may not be incompetent, I'll certainly not be able to use the deceptive cover much longer.
By the way... the times the Dull Pain bug helped the most were against Blasters, Spines Scrappers, Tankers (due to needing to conserve endurance), and Dwarf-form Kheldians (for the same reason as Tankers).
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If anything the change in combat style this requires is going to increase your DPS. That is unless I completely don't understand something you're doing. Because I can't fathom why you want to rehide in this way if you can't use it to AS.
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You CAN use the chance to AS... but you have to NOT be hit while doing so, just as if you were doing it normally. It's not like Placate where they can't attack you. They still can, but it's an extra opportunity, regardless.
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Exaggerate much? Aim (or Build Up with toHit slotting) is sufficient to trump the entire benefit of the SR and Ninitsu defense lines for 10 seconds, barring the activation of level 38 powers. You make it sound like that they can stand in the midst of enemy fire and can ignore it at will. It's flatly untrue.
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You are talking about PvP, what about PvE?
Also what if SR takes a few purples? Does that not push there defence up??
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You never "run out" of Build Up or Aim, you just wait for it to recharge. You aren't limited to having any fixed number of them in your tray. And frankly, Lucks work for Regens just as well. One small purple is about 2/3 the defense /SR can muster, total.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just pop some purples 
Unless your tray is filled up with break frees...
blues:
Lyla Twilight
Ember's Rise
reds:
Gray Inferno
Leiura
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Exaggerate much? Aim (or Build Up with toHit slotting) is sufficient to trump the entire benefit of the SR and Ninitsu defense lines for 10 seconds, barring the activation of level 38 powers. You make it sound like that they can stand in the midst of enemy fire and can ignore it at will. It's flatly untrue.
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You are talking about PvP, what about PvE?
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Like I said, I didn't even know about this till two weeks ago, and never intentionally used it. In fact the way I did use DP was usually such that it made it hard for me to benefit from this bug. I don't see an issue at all. Of course I also think that people who stand around and rehide in combat are losing DPS bigtime.
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Also what if SR takes a few purples? Does that not push there defence up??
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Build Up never runs out. You aren't limited to having any fixed number of them in your tray. And frankly, they work for Regens just as well. One small purple is about 2/3 the defense /SR can muster, total.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The truth is out there.
Honestly that would be sorta cool. Statesman playing good cop; bad cop with himself. Hmm... interesting. But does anyone know Castle's real name?
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i friggin TOLD you!!!!!
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Wait, are we accusing a dev of being a secret dev?
Because that'd be kind of cool.
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it's my cracked out conspiracy theory du jour. i think there is no castle or at least, he's a patsy set up the main man so they can play good cop/bad cop with us.
like i said, cracked out.
Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.
▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲