Red Flags - Before You Start The Villain Respec
By
American_Knight,
Posted on: 2006-01-02 13:21 in Player Guides
I've done the respec several times for various reasons. I think in general I agree with your recommendations. I think a good working team can do it regardless, but I would be very cautious about starting a respec without at least one brute and someone with an area heal (/dark MM, most corruptors).
I'm going to pass on commenting that corruptors aren't dmg dealers - I do agree you look to have them on your team for their secondary - but the comment still irks.
I've done it without a MM, but that time we had two brutes and a stalker.
Not essential, but helpful
1) TP Foe (for the vines)
2) Recall (either with Stealth, or someone else with Grant Invisibility)
3) A Powerful Debuff (/rad's 3 powers ; /dark's DN ; etc) to slap on the AV.
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I'm going to pass on commenting that corruptors aren't dmg dealers - I do agree you look to have them on your team for their secondary - but the comment still irks.
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I don't think the comment was meant to be derogatory in anyway. I agree with him on the point though. Yes, damage is the Corruptors primary, but their Secondary is Buff/DeBuff and any Corruptor that ignores their secondary or refuses to use it is a poor Corruptor. Like he said, if the team wanted more damage it would go for a Brute, the Corruptor is there to help by Buffing and DeBuffing, while handing out a dose of damage.
"Me, I assume 99% of the world's population are full-blown *******. Humanity seldomly lets me down."--Eisregen
�Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.�
― George Carlin
Just a personal thing here, but I really wouldn't reccomend going with more than four people. The increasng vine spawn for larger teams can kill you. 4 people need to kill 24 vines, 8 need to kill 96 (IIRC).
I'd have to sort of disagree with the advice; my rule of thumb for any task force is # of (corrupters + dominators) >> # of (brutes + stalkers)
Corrupters are going to outdamage brutes in most situations... significantly outdamage where they can AE, and also somewhat outdamage on bosses, elites, and AV's... where they drop all the debuffs. Corrupter's archtypes are among the least fungible (interchangeable) in the game; so it make a lot of different what type of corrupter you are getting.
I'd be careful about taking more than 1 thermal corrupter in; you want to load up with dark/rad/cold/kinetic.
The same is true to a lesser extent with masterminds... /dark and (shockingly!) /poison are the best for TFs/Trials.
Every AT in CoV does good damage, its the secondary effects that diffierentiate them. Brutes are mainly there to manage aggro and take alpha strikes. Neither function is very useful in the respec.
(Adding a corrupter to a team might raise the damage of everyone by 25%, in addition to their own damage. That's a very useful effect.)
Massed debuffs win AV fights.
In this fight, you need a bunch of masterminds. The tree has a very long recycle "death ray" attack. If you have a lot of pets around, they'll generally take it. It goes without saying, all masterminds need their high end pet, so 28 minimum. Because pets are lower level, its critical that masterminds be at the high end of a group in order to contribute.
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My Advice to winning the trial:
The major trick at all to the respec is get a team the appropriate level: 29-30. Everyone has to be in that range, or lackeyable to that range. Its not a 25, 26, or 27 mission.
This trial is somewhat easier with less than 8 people; 5-6 is a good number.
Everyone needs to go in with 4 revives or something. People will die when clearing the place.
The leader needs to be set to the minumum possible difficulty.
Teleport friend is seriously useful.
Its a difficult trial, but not as difficult as most people make it. Levels make a huge difference. I don't see how any but the most perfect 25-26 team could do this... a 29-30 team can be full of rejects and people who made very poor character choices.
Glad to see some discussion, I never said this was to be taken as if it was written in stone.
If the editing time was not over I'd add the points about difficulty setting and level of players, slipped my mind.
I stand by my comments on Corruptors. Yes, a Corruptor who neglects his secondary is only half a character in my eyes. Also the reason I'd take another Brute if I just wanted damage is because a Brute is not as fragile as a Corruptor.
As for debuffs winning the battle, you can have all the debuffs in the world but in the end if you don't have the damage you are not going to kill the AV. Debuffing only does so much.
Plus Brutes don't have to worry so much about the ambushes coming to stab them in the backs.
4 mastermind group and only 1 death in the whole respec and that was during the longbow base raid, and it was when I was Lackeyed up, after my Boss Lost connection and my bots dropped I was right after. Did the rest without a single death. the guide should not discuss types to be in a group. Its quite simple with ANY group makeup. I have done it a few times with 4-6 people. Even with a incompitent player we were still able to make it through without to much pain. until the last room its no difference than any other mission. once you get to the last room its quite easy, go around take out CoT and the occasional vine that may be near. Once the CoT are gone take out the vines then wail on the tree.
The easiest time I had with this trial was a full group, yet no Corruptors.
People who know their powers know how to talk to each other, and know how to bring everything they have to the table are far more useful than any particular formula for ATs.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
This is concerning pick-up groups, not well-oiled SG teams. Your mileage may vary.
you CAN do the respec with any type and complete it, however there are a few AT's that can make your life a WHOLE lot easier.
A few things to keep in mind are that you will need more damage dealers than anything else. Otherwise the vines respawn more than you can kill. Espeically on higher teams such as with 8 people and only a brute and a stalker maybe. The best ratio is every non damage dealer grab 2 damage dealers...much like how it is stated in the first post.
However, another VERY valuable trinket even more so then a brute is either a Bubbler Mastermind with Personal Force Field and Recall Freind or a Stalker with Recall Freind. EVERY single one fo the 3 missions your given including the last AV one you can skip 90% of the mobs and go straight to the action. By simply teleportation. Done it 3 times already all times I have completed under 40 minutes flat and under. The person with pff can do just as well as a stalker if he knows what he is doing, the key is to get the aggro off him after he reaches his destination but in each mission there are plenty of side stops for you to teleport too so that is no problem.
A good team makeup is 2 brutes, 2 healing corruptors (i.e a corruptor that can heal for all the people who vainly say there are no healers everytime I broadcast), 1 stalker or mastermind with recall freind, and a dom for crowd control. Best dom used would probably be gravity since you wont be attacking most of the enemies as you will be trying to hold off the ambish at the end.
Other than that enjoy. This is a guide to make your life a bit easier, you can do it without and some can do it even better, I just posted my two cents and hope you can use this as a reference when respecing. =)
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go around take out CoT and the occasional vine that may be near. Once the CoT are gone take out the vines then wail on the tree.
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No! Those early kill vines will start respawning by the time you're getting to the rest of the vines. Don't kill any vines until you're ready to dive in and take them all out as fast as possible. Even if you're a low damage group, this is the win strategy (even more so if you can TP Foe the vines by the AV away from the AV (but don't kill them immediately)).
WRT to the OP: One question for you... what about advising us not to team up with stupid and incompetent Brutes? You know the type: in order to keep Fury up they rush into the next spawn without regard to the readiness of the rest of the team, and then when they do a faceplant, they blame us for not being there.
And let me telling you something else, uberbrute, when I have a foe debuffed and all of my minions attacking it... it goes down faster than a brute can do. That's something a few brutes in PvP have learned the hard way when they thought they could stand toe to toe with a squishie MM while standing in my Tar Patch debuffed with Darkest Night and my self heals. They thought they could ignore the minions. They thought wrong.
So much for damage.
BTW, I've been on a respec trial loaded with MMs. The tree was zerged by the minion army and the extra spawns were ignored. The tree was down in a minute.
I concur with those who've said the real trick to the trial is have the right levels of villains... not the right ATs. That is so much more important than team balance. This isn't CoH.
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And let me telling you something else, uberbrute, when I have a foe debuffed and all of my minions attacking it... it goes down faster than a brute can do. That's something a few brutes in PvP have learned the hard way when they thought they could stand toe to toe with a squishie MM while standing in my Tar Patch debuffed with Darkest Night and my self heals. They thought they could ignore the minions. They thought wrong.
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Wow, that was an awful lot of hostility against someone just trying to help others. Even if you don't agree with his advice you don't need to be insulting.
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Wow, that was an awful lot of hostility against someone just trying to help others. Even if you don't agree with his advice you don't need to be insulting.
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Where were you when "Incompetent Masterminds" was one of his topic headings?
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I stand by my comments on Corruptors. Yes, a Corruptor who neglects his secondary is only half a character in my eyes.
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I agree. I feel the same way about "pure" Defenders who neglect their secondary in CoH. Both are not whole characters and do not bring as much to the team as they could.
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As for debuffs winning the battle, you can have all the debuffs in the world but in the end if you don't have the damage you are not going to kill the AV. Debuffing only does so much.
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Yes and no. If you are only debuffing Accuracy and Damage, then you are correct. However, once you add in debuffs to resistance and regeneration, then you are wrong.
My CoH SG Buffer Overrun dropped both Babbage and the Clockwork King in the Synapse TF in under 20 seconds apeice. This was without any "damage dealers" on the team. I believe that this was before you could debuff regen as well.
SA
@Griffyn
"40 characters is my limit... okay, 50... 50 is my limit... okay, 60... 60 is my limit... okay, 70..."
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Wow, that was an awful lot of hostility against someone just trying to help others. Even if you don't agree with his advice you don't need to be insulting.
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Where were you when "Incompetent Masterminds" was one of his topic headings?
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Dude, we was singling out bad corruptors too, and we haven't fliped out yet. Mainly because he's right, corruptors who won't support a team are a disadvange to a team. So are master minds who can't or won't control there pets, can litterly bring the hords of hades on top of a team.
Idiot brutes can be a hinderns to there teams, but, in my expeaince, 9 times out of 10 they just get themselves killed, then LEARN after a death or two to wait on the rest of us.
Not all AT's are created equal. Some AT's if played poorly are more damageing to a team then others. An incompanent master mind is the 2nd worst team mate i can think of. (leaches are worse IMO.) But a GOOD master mind is one of the BEST team mates i can think of. and belive me i've played with both. heh.
@KingSnake - Triumph Server
@PrinceSnake
My common sense is tingling... ~ Deadpool
If you can't learn to do something well... learn to enjoy doing it poorly...
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Wow, that was an awful lot of hostility against someone just trying to help others. Even if you don't agree with his advice you don't need to be insulting.
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Where were you when "Incompetent Masterminds" was one of his topic headings?
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Dude, we was singling out bad corruptors too,
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See, that's the thing. If you have 'bad players' no matter what the AT, then they're not helpful in completing a difficult task. So, it's not really about the AT. But the OP kept singling out badly played ATs, excepting the Brute, who seemingly, can do no wrong.
This isn't a guide to the respec, it's a complaint against bad players (except those who play Brutes).
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This isn't a guide to the respec,
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That's right, it is a list of things that should ring warning bells in your head when the team is being assembled. Nowhere does this say how to do the respec.
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But the OP kept singling out badly played ATs, excepting the Brute, who seemingly, can do no wrong.
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Because yes, some ATs when played badly are more dangerous to the team than others. A Corruptor with no buffs is not of much use to a respec team. A Mastermind who does not hold a tight reign on his pets will clog doorways, aggro multiple mobs when the team is not ready or already fighting one mob.
Brutes, Stalkers, and Dominators on the other hand tend to only get themselves in trouble when they screw up and usually die alone and learn from their mistake right away, as another poster already pointed out.
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Where were you when "Incompetent Masterminds" was one of his topic headings?
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Never read it. But I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic.
Please excuse me for thinking this, but it seems like you were very upset by this other thread and have brought it to this one. That just isn't a good thing.
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See, that's the thing. If you have 'bad players' no matter what the AT, then they're not helpful in completing a difficult task. So, it's not really about the AT. But the OP kept singling out badly played ATs, excepting the Brute, who seemingly, can do no wrong.
This isn't a guide to the respec, it's a complaint against bad players (except those who play Brutes).
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Look I can understand frustration at someone disliking what you like but when you become hostile and condecending you lose 'discussion currency'. Few will want to deal with you when you rant.
And as the OP says, it isn't a guide a simple guide to respecs, its a guide to forming a respec team. I too get frustrated with bad players...MM's ...Brutes..and any other.
The thing is his complaint was specific. It was not a general argument against MM's. Each character (not just AT but character) has strength and weaknesses. The trick is to minimize the weakness while maximizing the strengths. If that means a corruptor does nothing but heal then so be it. If that means a brute can't maintain fury oh well. And yes, if that means a MM needs to watch his minions like a hawk then that is the price you pay to play.
This is what I read in the OP's post. I may not agree with his examples or have a few of extra of my own but I still see the overall context.
If you go back and read the posts again I think you will find that you were the only one to see insult in the OP's post.
You people spend more time crab-assing about each others offenses than you do sharing your notable wisdom with the rest of us. You all have something to share but seem to be too worried that someone else has offended you. You have to remember, humans share emotion with annunciation and body language. Neither of which are conveyed in informational writing. We are here to learn and to share our knowledge not to criticize people for their opinions. It sounds like a bunch of emotionally unstable kids with no self-confidence involved in flame wars. Lets try to change that from now on. It would help us all out. I like the original post and just about everyone had good things to contribute. Lets keep this sort of thing informational.
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This isn't a guide to the respec,
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Lazarus: That's right, it is a list of things that should ring warning bells in your head when the team is being assembled. Nowhere does this say how to do the respec.
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Perhaps the Forum in which it was posted under (Player Guides) would lead someone to believe you were posting a player guide?
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Where were you when "Incompetent Masterminds" was one of his topic headings?
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Deamongelous: Never read it. But I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic. Please excuse me for thinking this, but it seems like you were very upset by this other thread and have brought it to this one.
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What other thread? He used "Incompetent Masterminds" as a topic heading (not thread title) in the original post of this thread. You did read the original post of this thread, no?
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Sgt_Subterfuge: You people spend more time crab-assing about each others offenses than you do sharing your notable wisdom with the rest of us.
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Which is exactly what you're doing in your post, Kettle.
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Good suggestions. I haven't yet done the respec but in reading the guides to this respec, your notes would seem to make your life easier on this mission.
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Perhaps the Forum in which it was posted under (Player Guides) would lead someone to believe you were posting a player guide?
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Yes, it is a small guide on forming a respec team, not a guide on completing a respec like you claimed it was. In other words, learn to [censored] read.
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What other thread? He used "Incompetent Masterminds" as a topic heading (not thread title) in the original post of this thread. You did read the original post of this thread, no?
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I see what you mean now. One of the SUB-headings in his original post.
I apologize for the mistake.
I am curious, why was his comments on those who don't play an AT offensive to you?
Please, I really want to know what that is such an issue with you?
Speaking only for myself, and not trying to put words in anyone's mouth here:
I play 2 masterminds, one is at lvl 40, and one is at lvl 15. I believe I am one of the good ones (but who really believes they are bad?).
MMs are often singled out as an AT. I've seen people claim they will never team with one, I've seen multiple rants against them, and I don't know that there is any other AT that is the target of as much hostility.
In the OP, there were comments about not playing with corruptors who wouldn't heal/buff. There were comments about the types of players and the types of AT you should take. MMs were the ONLY AT singled out with their own sub-heading for a discussion of incompetance. So... some of us are a little more sensitive about it than others. Myself, I've played with some seriously bad MMs... and here is what I've decided: Everyone can, and does, screw up. However, when a mastermind screws up it is terribly obvious, and, likely to have very very serious consequences. ... sorry, getting off topic. Let me step off the soapbox... All I have ever asked is that you not blame the entire AT just bc you've met an incompetant player, and, that seems to be what the OP did. Thanks.
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In the OP, there were comments about not playing with corruptors who wouldn't heal/buff. There were comments about the types of players and the types of AT you should take. MMs were the ONLY AT singled out with their own sub-heading for a discussion of incompetance. So... some of us are a little more sensitive about it than others. Myself, I've played with some seriously bad MMs... and here is what I've decided: Everyone can, and does, screw up. However, when a mastermind screws up it is terribly obvious, and, likely to have very very serious consequences. ... sorry, getting off topic. Let me step off the soapbox... All I have ever asked is that you not blame the entire AT just bc you've met an incompetant player, and, that seems to be what the OP did. Thanks.
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I didn't get that at all. But like Shakespear says...'nothing is but think makes so'
Red Flags - Before You Start The Villain Respec
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By: Lazarus
The villain respec trial is a sizable undertaking and inspecting the team before starting the trial goes a long way towards making it easier. Take a look at peoples powers and see if there is something you should be aware of that could be a problem and discuss with the team how to avoid it. Look at the balance of archetypes and see what kind of support you have.
Here are some red flags that your team may be doomed to failure. These are my opinions formed from observations after running a few respec trials, I've seen team set ups that worked great and ones that were disasters. Remember, these are opinions, if my view on Masterminds offends you then too bad.
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1) Poor balance of damage dealers and supporters.
Try to have at least one Corruptor for every two damage dealers. Just about every Corruptor has at least a heal or if not some form of debuff/buffing. Even a /Traps Corruptor who cannot heal is a great help if they have Force Field Generator.
2) Not enough Brutes.
Seriously, bring at least two Brutes. Those vines will fall fast and they can wail away big time on the AV as long as they have the Corruptor support.
3) Corruptors who say that they will not heal or buff.
Yeah, damage is your primary but let's be friggin' honest. If we just wanted more damage on this trial we'd invite more Brutes and Stalkers. We pick up Corruptors because they offer more than just damage.
4) Too many Masterminds.
I am serious. More than two and you'll have a painful time reaching the AV in those little tunnels. Also the last thing you need in that room is pets running amok and aggroing everything because someone forgot to put them on passive.
5) Incompetent Masterminds
Make sure you have competent Masterminds who can maintain control of their henchment. Make sure that they are willing to sacrifice their pets if needed. Make sure that if they have team buffs and foe debuffs that they are willing to use them.
If they refuse to use their buffs on you or debuff foes (I've met /Dark MMs who refused to use Darkest Night even when Psi Bosses were slaughtering us, /FF MMs who have bubbles but won't give you one even if you ask) then don't bring them. Just get another Corruptor and you will have less headaches.
6) Bad mix of archetypes overall.
You need some balance. 4 Dominators and a Brute may be relatively safe but could takes ages to finish. 4 Brutes without any support will tear through mobs until their endurance runs out or the AV whittles them down to nothing. A bunch of Masterminds may do ok until something goes wrong and the MM dies, taking all his pets with him and severely reducing the strength of the team.
My honest recommendation is a max of 6 players. 2 Brutes and 2 Corruptors at minimum, fill in the last 2 with anything else.
Stalkers are great for quickly getting rid of bosses and those uber-annoying Spectral Daemon Lords.
With two Dominators you wouldn't have to worry about them building up Domination all the time since they can stack their holds.