About -Res....
By
Angry_Citizen,
Posted on: 2005-12-22 12:04 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Was this supposed to be news? Geko explained this a long time ago 
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Link?
The information is probably lost.
Unless they compile a list of FAQ... the same questions are bound to come back regularly.
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Was this supposed to be news? Geko explained this a long time ago
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Link?
The information is probably lost.
Unless they compile a list of FAQ... the same questions are bound to come back regularly.
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They always do (come back that is). You'd be amazed at the wealth of information (numbers, formulas, etc) that have gone down the drain since they implemented the forum purge.
Anyway, he explained how it works waaaaay back when they made EF resistable.
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Unless resistance inspirations work significantly different from resistance powers, yes, what _Castle_ has said is accurate.
I haven't tested the Controller versions of -resistance powers, however, so that's something to add to my todo list.
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Let me save you some time.
What _Castle_ said already explains this, but if you want in-game verification too (which never hurts...), Pennelope and I already tested this a while back.
We tested Defender and Controller resistance debuffs (specifically Enervating Field and Tar Patch for Defenders and Enervating Field and Freezing Rain for Controllers) and concluded that Controller resistance debuffs are resisted by damage resistance in both PvE and PvP, while Defender resistance debuffs were resisted by damage resistance in PvE but completely unresisted in PvP.
Or just like _Castle_ said:
Resist Debuffs are resisted by Damage Resistance.
Defenders debuffs are not resistable in PvP.
I don't have access to the actual numbers we used at the moment, but if you want I could give them to you at a later time.
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Resist Debuffs are resisted by Damage Resistance.
If your 100 damage attack hits someone with no resists, it does 100 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff, damage taken would be 125.
A 100 damage attack vs someone with 50% resists would take 50 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff on them, damage taken would be 62.5.
EDIT: The above assumes the Resist Debuff is resistable. Defenders debuffs are not resistable in PvP.
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Finally. Now I have something to point back to when I start making a list of why defenders underperform in PvP as far as -res goes. -dmg also seems to be affected by this as well when the damage and the resistance are the same.
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I'm confused. You're making a list of why defenders underperform, and are planning to use a definite advantage to show this?
Defender res debuffs are not resisted in PvP.
If a Controller and a Defender both use a 30% resistance debuff against a player with 75% resistance, the player will take 32.5% of "base damage" when debuffed by the Controller (an effective 30% increase in damage taken), and 55% of "base damage" when debuffed by the Defender (an effective 120% increase in damage taken).
How is this a disadvantage for the Defender?
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Long long ago, in a post far away, one of the devs mentioned the way -Resistance worked. Now, What I've heard that post mentioned was that -Res wasnt actual -Res but a damage multiplier. Is this correct, or is this one of the fallacies just randomly flying around?
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Resist Debuffs are resisted by Damage Resistance.
If your 100 damage attack hits someone with no resists, it does 100 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff, damage taken would be 125.
A 100 damage attack vs someone with 50% resists would take 50 damage.
If that person had a 25% Resist Debuff on them, damage taken would be 62.5.
EDIT: The above assumes the Resist Debuff is resistable. Defenders debuffs are not resistable in PvP.
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Finally. Now I have something to point back to when I start making a list of why defenders underperform in PvP as far as -res goes. -dmg also seems to be affected by this as well when the damage and the resistance are the same.
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In actual fact, in a very real sense resistance debuffs only work "as expected" in the specific case of defender debuffs used in PvP. In all other cases, resistance debuffs are always "softer" than you might expect, because they are resisted (and due to the way the math works out, in effect resisted resistance debuffs look just like a damage multiplier).
So in fact, this would specifically be one of the areas where (some) defenders have a distinct advantage in PvP, not a disadvantage. But it might point to some strong imbalances *between* defenders in PvP. Defenders without resistance debuffs (i.e. kinetics, force fields) have significantly less damage potential than defenders that do against high resistance targets; this may or may not be significant when comparing different defender sets.
Elsewhere, I believe it was mentioned that in a non-unique quirky way, damage resistance also resists *damage* debuffs of the same type. The game engine seems to have very funky design to deal with certain related things like damage resistance and damage debuffs (think about the endurance drain/endurance recovery issue recently).
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Unless resistance inspirations work significantly different from resistance powers, yes, what _Castle_ has said is accurate.
I haven't tested the Controller versions of -resistance powers, however, so that's something to add to my todo list.
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Let me save you some time.
What _Castle_ said already explains this, but if you want in-game verification too (which never hurts...), Pennelope and I already tested this a while back.
I don't have access to the actual numbers we used at the moment, but if you want I could give them to you at a later time.
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Thanks a ton, Stargazer, and don't bother looking for numbers, I just wanted some independent confirmation. Guess this makes one type of debuff that isn't resistable.
I'm still sticking by my earlier statement, though; this is a really cheesy mechanic, particularly when you consider how long we've had this "resistance debuff resistance" - it's even worse when you consider how new "defense debuff resistance" is.
Okay, so I have a question. I was fighting a scrapper 1-on-1 with my Rad/Traps corruptor. I'm pretty sure he was regen, but my memory is foggy.
Anyway, I had mortar out (~25% resist debuff) and several of my attacks scourged on the scrapper.
However, instead of the two numbers being identical (doubling my damage as in PvE), the second number was 25% less than the first. Anyone care to explain that?
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Okay, so I have a question. I was fighting a scrapper 1-on-1 with my Rad/Traps corruptor. I'm pretty sure he was regen, but my memory is foggy.
Anyway, I had mortar out (~25% resist debuff) and several of my attacks scourged on the scrapper.
However, instead of the two numbers being identical (doubling my damage as in PvE), the second number was 25% less than the first. Anyone care to explain that?
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Sounds bugged to me, I don't think the scourge critical is taking into acct the debuff. /bug it
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I'm still sticking by my earlier statement, though; this is a really cheesy mechanic, particularly when you consider how long we've had this "resistance debuff resistance" - it's even worse when you consider how new "defense debuff resistance" is.
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I don't really like the way it currently works either. Before I got Freezing Rain on my Controller, I had imagined that resistance debuffs would be particularly useful against foes with high resistance (i.e. the debuff would be unresistable). I was very disappointed when I found out this was not the case.
I think I might prefer it if resistance debuffs were made to always be unresistable, and lowered somewhat in magnitude to compensate for this added bonus (say that a 30% debuff would be reduced to a 20% debuff). This would make resistance debuffs less powerful against foes with low or no resistance, but more powerful against foes with higher resistance.
IMHO, this would feel more "appropriate".
Of course, this would remove an advantage Defenders currently have in PvP, so something would have to be done to compensate for this. Maybe double (triple?) their res debuffs in PvP? Alternatively make all res debuffs unresistable in PvE, but keep only Defender res debuffs unresistable in PvP...
(There's also the weird interaction between resistance and damage debuffs that currently makes it harder to debuff the damage of my sword if I'm wearing a bullet-proof west. Yeah, that makes sense. 
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I don't have much hope that this'll be changed though. Balancing would have to be taken into consideration, and unresistable resistance debuffs would be insanely good against AVs with 90-ish% resistance...
(I suppose AVs could be given separate debuff resistance though...)
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Anyway, I had mortar out (~25% resist debuff) and several of my attacks scourged on the scrapper.
However, instead of the two numbers being identical (doubling my damage as in PvE), the second number was 25% less than the first. Anyone care to explain that?
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Criticals are generally unresistable in PvP. This means that they bypass the entire resistance part of the equation, and thus also the debuff (which affects this very same part).
At least that'd be my guess...
Each point of res% increases your longevity more per point as your res gets higher. Let me illustrate.
For these examples...the attacker's base damage is 100, you have 1000 hp. The resistance is multiplied off of the base damage (10% damage resistance would take 10 off of the 100 damage, making it 90)
Resistance--Damage Taken per hit--Number of hits to die
0%-----------100-----------------------10
20%----------80-------------------------12.5
40%----------60-------------------------16
60%----------40-------------------------25
80%----------20-------------------------50
Notice how much your longevity (number of hits to die) increases exponentially per % of res? (this is also partially why the ability to tank was nerfed so much) Hitting someone with a tiny bit of -res IF -res subtracted straight off of the person's res bonus would be extremely overpowered, as it would dramatically weaken a mob/pc's chance with high res to tank when hit by it. That is why, say, a power that hurts def by 15% will take 15% off no matter how high their res is.
If it res DID work by subtracting the res straight off their res bonus, then someone who has 80% res...if they got hit by a -20% res debuff to bring them to a 60% res bonus, then they would take DOUBLE THE DAMAGE that they were taking before.
This is also why CoH has had so many balance problems before, and why a majority of other MMORPG's have their resistance formulas go by an "armor class" method rather than a straight % resistance to damage.
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Long long ago, in a post far away, one of the devs mentioned the way -Resistance worked. Now, What I've heard that post mentioned was that -Res wasnt actual -Res but a damage multiplier. Is this correct, or is this one of the fallacies just randomly flying around?
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Perhaps this is the post? Geko on Resistance Debuffs
Yeah.. it is strange. -Resistance powers works the least where they are actualy needed the most. If it is called -resistance shouldn't it reduce resistance.. not act like a damage multiplier?
Then again.. what do I know. I just play the game.
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Yeah.. it is strange. -Resistance powers works the least where they are actualy needed the most. If it is called -resistance shouldn't it reduce resistance.. not act like a damage multiplier?
Then again.. what do I know. I just play the game.
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Resistance Based sets have (almost) always resisted -res effects. Defense Based sets can now resist -def based effects.
I don't see whats wrong since someone could just as easily argue that you need -def the most when fighting a defense based enemy.
Very true.. I had forgotton about that.
Though I will give a counter arguement. Some amount of -Resist won't completely destroy a resistance based set. Below a certain threshhold defense is an utter joke. Yes.. to much of either will make them a joke.. but the amount of defense needed to matter is argueably higher. All it takes is one -def attack to land for the cascade to start.
I guess it all comes down to who's side you're on. If you are the debuffer you're gonna want your debuffs to have a serious effect while if you are the defending person you are not going to want your multiple shields destroyed by a single debuff.
In the case of Resistance the Defending person is gonna be doing "/e victory". While in the case of Defense the attacker is going to be "/e cheer"-ing up a storm.
Hey.. I am primarily a regen. if I am hit with a -regen my regen STOPS.. it isn't debuffed. That should give you an idea of who I might cheer for.
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Hey.. I am primarily a regen. if I am hit with a -regen my regen STOPS.. it isn't debuffed. That should give you an idea of who I might cheer for.
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Defense debuffs can be stacked (relatively easily) so that net overall defense actually goes negative. That would be comparable to regeneration debuffs becoming a DoT when stacked. A lot of times, when defense is "debuffed" its not just "stopped," its actually worse than stopped.
Also, no power or effect I'm aware of stops either dull pain or reconstruction from working under any circumstances.
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I do think its a bit whacky that -REGEN effectively kills your entire regen.
Just doesn't make sense.
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Also, no power or effect I'm aware of stops either dull pain or reconstruction from working under any circumstances.
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-regen stops you from regeneration HP automaticly. weather your regen is, example not the real numbers, 10 hp per sec or 30 hp per sec -regen makes it 0 hp per sec. Same with recovery. no if you use a self heal or are healed by another player -regen has no effect on those powers because the are not +regen they are +hp.
and you can't stack a defense debuff below 5% deffense because they way accuracy and defense works. You allways have a 5% chance you will miss a target regardless of how much acc you have. or how much you have debuffed their defence.
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Also, no power or effect I'm aware of stops either dull pain or reconstruction from working under any circumstances.
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-regen stops you from regeneration HP automaticly. weather your regen is, example not the real numbers, 10 hp per sec or 30 hp per sec -regen makes it 0 hp per sec. Same with recovery. no if you use a self heal or are healed by another player -regen has no effect on those powers because the are not +regen they are +hp.
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That's correct, which is why the actual effect of -regen on a regeneration scrapper is not necessarily the same apples to apples effect that -DEF has on an SR scrapper. The regeneration set has heals that are not affected by -regen, and it has dull pain which is also not affected by -regen debuffs.
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and you can't stack a defense debuff below 5% deffense because they way accuracy and defense works. You allways have a 5% chance you will miss a target regardless of how much acc you have. or how much you have debuffed their defence.
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That's not correct. If a minion has a base 50% chance to hit me, and I have 25% defense, net tohit is 25%. I can be easily debuffed to -25% defense, which would make the net tohit now 75% - higher than if I had no defense at all. ETCs were getting virtual autohit on SR just by stacking two quicksands.
The actual tohit can't go above 95% or below 5%, but defense can be debuffed far below zero. Regeneration cannot be debuffed to less than zero.
Resistance too can be debuffed below zero (I believe it was once stated that the resistance floor was -400%), but because of the way resistance and resistance debuffs work, its a much, much more difficult thing to do, unless you are a defender debuffing a player in PvP combat and you have a lot of friends helping you.
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With the description of how this works normally. That mathetmatical method is EXACTLY how I think multiple resist powers should work. Multiplying effective damage together (two powers with 20% resist each lead to 0.8 * 0.8 damage)
That would have seriously limited the amount of resistance people were having at higher levels without having any effect on people with just one power, and minimal effect on people with two. Also, they seem to have the tools to make enhancement only affect some of a power without boosting the whole thing (they've used it on regen powers) Would have taken more coding though than just chopping a single number though, but may have had closer to the actual effect they wanted.
as for the critical not doing debuff damage on the critical effect. I have heard scrapper criticals bypass resistance completely (which may in their coding also mean it bypasses resistance debuffs). The additional damage was 25% of which value less than the first number?
posts I'm seeing about -regen. So, the powers a regen scrapper should be relying on can be essentially negated by a single power? Fast Healing, Health, the +regen of Integration, and Instant Healing all combined (plus buffs from Accelerate Metabolism, Regeneration Aura, etc) can ALL be negated by a single -regen attack? Ouch.
If the -defense works how you illustrate (completely negates your +def and then also gives the -def at full value) that's a vulgar programming error too.
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I hear the same goes for Damage Debuffs, if i can hit for 100 points with some punch and have 50% smash resist, and get a 50% damage output debuf, i would also be hitting for 62.5 instead of 50. Is this true? And if true, is it intended?
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?
If you hit someone with 50% resistance for 100 damage, and then have your damage reduced by 50%, would you not do:
200/2 or 100 damage, resisted 50% to 50 damage? Even if the damage debuff affects the resistance, increasing it by 50% to 75%, you're doing 25 damage.
Or if it flips the other way, and damage debuff is reduced by resistance to 25%, you're doing 75 damage.
Where'd you get 62.5 from 50? That's a 25% increase to damage dealt, is it not?
Synonym wrote,
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Where'd you get 62.5 from 50? That's a 25% increase to damage dealt, is it not?
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By that first line, he meant that the attack regularly does 100 damage. Against someone with 50% resist, that attack now does 50 damage because half of it was resisted.
Now let's look at the resistance debuff (not to be confused with a damage debuff):
Resistance debuffs work just like damage multipliers. If you could do 100 damage against a target with 0 resistances, if that target was hit with a resistance debuff of -25%, your damage would be multiplied by 1.25. If the resistance debuff was -33%, your damage would be multiplied by 1.33.
Now it gets complicated (isn't it always? ) if the target has any resistances.
If the target has 50% resistance, and your target would do 100 damage against a target with 0 resistance:
- Your damage is going to be reduced by 50%. Final damage (excluding debuffs) is 50.
-Your resistance debuff is going to cut in half (half resisted). If the debuff was -25% (normally a 1.25 damage multiplier), it now becomes a -12.5% debuff (a 1.125 damage multiplier).
So take your damage (post resistance) check and multiply that by your debuff (post resistance) check.
50 x 1.125 = 56.25 damage.
In Starman's example, the resistance debuff started at as -50% (1.5 multiplier) and was modified into a -25% debuff (1.25 multiplier) due to the target's resistances.
50 x 1.25 = 62.5 damage
Kali and myself tested this out with resistance inspirations a while ago, and at least for them, we got numbers which suggested that Resistance debuffs from defenders weren't 'resistable' (yes, I'm going to put that into scare quotes whenever I say it; this is a really cheesy mechanic). Unless resistance inspirations work significantly different from resistance powers, yes, what _Castle_ has said is accurate.
I haven't tested the Controller versions of -resistance powers, however, so that's something to add to my todo list.
We did find that -recharge and -movement speed were resistable. And some evidence has shown that -def may be, although since Castle himself doesn't seem too certain about the defense debuff resistance mechanic, I'm not going to run on that one.