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The reason is as he stated blasters, kelidens, defenders and controllers have options for ranged attacks that tankers and scrappers do not have.
It may not make "sense" but rarely does game balance make sense outside of game mechanics.
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I don't think this makes sense from a game balance perspective, either. It completely cuts out a Blaster's secondary (other than Devices).
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No it doesn't. It takes two hurricanes to debuff melee range to the point that you can't attack, and if your blaster is in melee range of a Sorcerer with hurricane, you're already getting knocked around. You can run away and blast from a distance.
Melee can...punch or not fight.
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Range needs a limit to which it can be debuffed. I don't even understand the point behind a power that debuffs the range of people right next to you.
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Hurricane debuffs range and accuracy, and teh debuff lasts for 10 seconds after you leave the hurricane.
In PVE, NPC hurricanes lost the 10-second debuff, because it was painful to deal with for ranged and melee ATs.
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There is Scrapper which is Melee, and Blaster which is Ranged.
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Wrong.
Scrappers are Melee and defense
Blasters are Ranged and Melee.
Read the description as well, blasters are about massive damage at range or close up.
If you want to play a blaster as range only, fine you pay you play. Don't tell other how to play when they are paying to play.
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Because they can distinguish by AT, and not by attack type.
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wrong.
Check the defense powers sometime, defense only vs melee, defense only vs range.
If the devs are saying that then they are not being truthful, either they cannot tell the difference between attack types or they cannot be getting defense working as documented.
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This is a great annoyance for my Blapper too - any chance to help out on that?
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Not likely. You have Ranged options. Many Scrapper, Stalker, Tanker and Brute builds do not have Ranged options. The exclusion to the Range debuff only applies to those AT's for that reason.
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Gee, my first direct redname reply. 
The way I figure this, there really is no such thing as a melee attack in CoH/V. There are only ranged attacks with a range of 5 feet. Since two toons cannot get closer than 5' from each other (rather, the minumum distance is more than 2.5'), when range is halved, melee attacks become impossible to use.
This means that a melee toon using a ranged attack will not get a range reduction for Hurricane.
This is an explaination, not an excuse. As a fire/energy blaster, I have exactly one ranged, single-target attack I can use against someone using Hurricane (I am taking neither Flares nor Blazing Bolt).
Possible solution would be a small increase in melee attack range (like mastermind pets seem to have), or make the minimum distance between two toons just under 2.5'.
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The way I figure this, there really is no such thing as a melee attack in CoH/V. There are only ranged attacks with a range of 5 feet.
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however defense is typed, melee , ranged, aoe. That means the game does have the concept of melee attack, and the code can differentiate between the types. It may be that the implementation is based on range:
atk.range < 6;
or it may be flag based
atk.isMelee;
or bitmask based
atk.type & MELEE;
However, some where (unless the defense system is screwed up) there must be a way of ascertaining whether an attack is melee rather than ranged.
Of course flooring the range to a minimum of 5' would suffice as well. That would allow melee to work for all, and allow fire ball to work when you stuff your pinky up his nose and say 'debuff that! stormy'. The issue then is just overcoming the repel of hurricane to get next to the guy - a challenge in itself against a competent stormy.
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Bug. We neglected to give Stalkers and Brutes the immunity to the Range Debuff that Scrappers and Tankers get. I fixed it internally yesterday...it'll hopefully make it to you folks "Soon(tm)"
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Honestly, I have never been able to hit a player with hurricane up with a scrapper or tanker...
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That is a lie Ryko, because you have been able to hit and kill me in PvP. Storm is good VS melee, but that is about it, should storm defenders complain because they have no way to effectivly attack a blaster, or prevent being splattered by one?
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There is Scrapper which is Melee, and Blaster which is Ranged.
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Wrong.
Scrappers are Melee and defense
Blasters are Ranged and Melee.
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Yeah, Devices has all those awesome melee attacks. 
Blasters are ranged damage with a mixed bag of secondaries. They can include really good melee attacks (I've played /energy and /electric, so I know the blapper ways, at least at pre-SO levels).
That's beside the point:
Thematically, blasters are about the ranged damage. Scrappers are about the melee. If melee becomes impossible, blasters have ranged attacks. Scrappers might have EPPs, or one or two ranged attacks in claws and spines, but are otherwise out of luck.
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Read the description as well, blasters are about massive damage at range or close up.
If you want to play a blaster as range only, fine you pay you play. Don't tell other how to play when they are paying to play.
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Hey, just quoting Statesman. Blasters = ranged damage.
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Because they can distinguish by AT, and not by attack type.
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wrong.
Check the defense powers sometime, defense only vs melee, defense only vs range.
If the devs are saying that then they are not being truthful, either they cannot tell the difference between attack types or they cannot be getting defense working as documented.
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I believe the reason for this is simple:
Range debuffs are a status effect (all debuffs are, really). So, when hurricane applies its debuffs to you, you get:
-range
-accuracy
Scrappers, brutes, tankers, and stalkers have status protection against range debuffs.
I don't think they can apply a selective status protection so that it only helps some kinds of powers. Otherwise, they really would've done it. This ground was gone over months ago, and I made exactly the same point you did, and it got nowhere then, too.
Who knows, though? It may change.
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Bug. We neglected to give Stalkers and Brutes the immunity to the Range Debuff that Scrappers and Tankers get. I fixed it internally yesterday...it'll hopefully make it to you folks "Soon(tm)"
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Why is this the conceptual solution? Wouldn't it make more sense to make MELEE attacks, regardless of source, immune from range debuffing?
There is no reason why Scrapper ranged attacks are immune to range debuffing
There is no reason why Blaster melee attacks are vulnerable to range debuffing.
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as i recall, this "tank/scrapper range -range debuff immunity" was to be a temporary fix awhile back. it was originally implemented because ALL tank/scrapper attacks were being -range debuffed--melee and ranged. because of this tankers and scrappers were not able to execute melee attacks at all.
i'm not sure how or why this temporary solution has become the norm.
a much more reasonable solution, and i believe the original solution suggested at the time by the devs, was to make all melee attacks immune to the -range of hurricane and NONE OF THE RANGED ATTACKS.
I can believe that if there is a coding problem, then we live with this awkward and half-[censored] solution because of the coding problem.
I'm a programmer. I can believe the complexities. But if it's due to a coding problem, then please just say so.
Don't give me that crap about "Blasters aren't meant to melee therefore this is a good solution". That's just crap. Explain why a Blaster's Bonesmasher cannot reach through the Hurricane, but a Tanker's Bonesmasher can. Because the Blaster has OTHER options? Ridiculous answer. OTHER OPTIONS are, you know? OTHER OPTIONS! They're not what I'm using now. Why are two ATs using the same power, where the Blaster is actually using it BETTER (more damage)... and the Blaster's Bonesmasher is vulnerable to range debuffing while the Tanker's isn't?
"Other options" is a bad answer. They shouldn't affect THIS power. A melee attack is a melee attack, period. The source doesn't matter.
And what of Peacebringers? Do we count them as melee since their main attacks are melee and they have damage shield? Or do we count them as ranged since they have ranged attacks? What if they're in Tank form? What if they're in Nova form?
All sorts of questions that are caused by the silly solution of having range debuffs be AT-specific. If it's that much easier to code it that way, fine, admit it and we'll live with a less than right solution, but don't tell us "this IS the right solution".
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as i recall, this "tank/scrapper range -range debuff immunity" was to be a temporary fix awhile back. it was originally implemented because ALL tank/scrapper attacks were being -range debuffed--melee and ranged. because of this tankers and scrappers were not able to execute melee attacks at all.
i'm not sure how or why this temporary solution has become the norm.
a much more reasonable solution, and i believe the original solution suggested at the time by the devs, was to make all melee attacks immune to the -range of hurricane and NONE OF THE RANGED ATTACKS.
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It was never presented as a temporary solution.
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I can believe that if there is a coding problem, then we live with this awkward and half-[censored] solution because of the coding problem.
I'm a programmer. I can believe the complexities. But if it's due to a coding problem, then please just say so.
Don't give me that crap about "Blasters aren't meant to melee therefore this is a good solution". That's just crap. Explain why a Blaster's Bonesmasher cannot reach through the Hurricane, but a Tanker's Bonesmasher can. Because the Blaster has OTHER options? Ridiculous answer. OTHER OPTIONS are, you know? OTHER OPTIONS! They're not what I'm using now. Why are two ATs using the same power, where the Blaster is actually using it BETTER (more damage)... and the Blaster's Bonesmasher is vulnerable to range debuffing while the Tanker's isn't?
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Because you do have other options. If a blaster can't hit a sorcerer with Total Focus, the blaster can hit the sorcerer with a ranged attack - and some blaster primaries have stuns or holds.
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"Other options" is a bad answer. They shouldn't affect THIS power. A melee attack is a melee attack, period. The source doesn't matter.
And what of Peacebringers? Do we count them as melee since their main attacks are melee and they have damage shield? Or do we count them as ranged since they have ranged attacks? What if they're in Tank form? What if they're in Nova form?
All sorts of questions that are caused by the silly solution of having range debuffs be AT-specific. If it's that much easier to code it that way, fine, admit it and we'll live with a less than right solution, but don't tell us "this IS the right solution".
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They admitted it was much easier to code this way when it was first implemented over a year ago. The fact is that the ATs with melee attacks that don't get the immunity have access to ranged attacks, so don't act like your only option is to use Total Focus or whine on the forum.
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Bug. We neglected to give Stalkers and Brutes the immunity to the Range Debuff that Scrappers and Tankers get. I fixed it internally yesterday...it'll hopefully make it to you folks "Soon(tm)"
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You know this was put in pre ED when a fully slotted hurricane made it impossible for the melee types to cap on a controller or defender with hurricane on. Since this is no longer the case and since you have to touch the affected indivduals with the hurricane to debuff them, could this "fix" get removed? It isn't necessary anymore
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This fix was made because two Hurricanes meant that melee characters could not attack at all. It happened in issue 2, before PVP was close to being implemented in the arena or CoV.
That has not changed.
Also, in PvP, Hurricanes continue to debuff for 10 seconds after you're in it, which makes it even easier to debuff melee ATs to zero range than it is in PVE, where the debuff only lasts while you're in the hurricane.
So, anyway, I don't see any reason to remove the fix.
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Well how is two hurricanes different from two rads making you the anchor for the to hit debuffs? and the damage debuffs? You add any two of something it really shells people. I still don't see why this is necessary anymore.
Not that it is going to change. And while you're quoting States he said essentially when this came out that it should impact tankers and scrappers they just weren't sure how to do it and make it balanced and implied that it was a temporary fix (I am paraphrasing).
On Justice
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Bug. We neglected to give Stalkers and Brutes the immunity to the Range Debuff that Scrappers and Tankers get. I fixed it internally yesterday...it'll hopefully make it to you folks "Soon(tm)"
[/ QUOTE ]
You know this was put in pre ED when a fully slotted hurricane made it impossible for the melee types to cap on a controller or defender with hurricane on. Since this is no longer the case and since you have to touch the affected indivduals with the hurricane to debuff them, could this "fix" get removed? It isn't necessary anymore
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This fix was made because two Hurricanes meant that melee characters could not attack at all. It happened in issue 2, before PVP was close to being implemented in the arena or CoV.
That has not changed.
Also, in PvP, Hurricanes continue to debuff for 10 seconds after you're in it, which makes it even easier to debuff melee ATs to zero range than it is in PVE, where the debuff only lasts while you're in the hurricane.
So, anyway, I don't see any reason to remove the fix.
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Well how is two hurricanes different from two rads making you the anchor for the to hit debuffs? and the damage debuffs? You add any two of something it really shells people. I still don't see why this is necessary anymore.
Not that it is going to change. And while you're quoting States he said essentially when this came out that it should impact tankers and scrappers they just weren't sure how to do it and make it balanced and implied that it was a temporary fix (I am paraphrasing).
On Justice
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Well how is two hurricanes different from two rads making you the anchor for the to hit debuffs? and the damage debuffs? You add any two of something it really shells people. I still don't see why this is necessary anymore.
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Because two hurricanes completely removes a melee's ability to do anything. Two rads with EF + RI can be overcome with inspirations, buffs, and such.
Even without the range debuff, two hurricanes will pretty much floor anyone's to-hit. What's the problem?
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Not that it is going to change. And while you're quoting States he said essentially when this came out that it should impact tankers and scrappers they just weren't sure how to do it and make it balanced and implied that it was a temporary fix (I am paraphrasing).
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No, the "temporary fix" interpretation is wishful thinking.
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They admitted it was much easier to code this way when it was first implemented over a year ago.
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I was not here when they implemented this change in PvE over a year ago, but I do remember when they implemented it in PvP in I4.
Back on 04/28/05 Circeus said:
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No in fact this is a PvE change that happened about 6 months ago being applied for PvP. And back then a similar discussion was had. After all Blasters have many melee attacks yet are still affected by this.
At the time we were told two things:
1) That they could apply a change per AT easier then they could set a minimum range at the time they were doing it
2) That they would do this right and set a minimum range before applying this change to PvP
I was one of the few people who raised a big stink about this back then, not really buying (1) because I'm a programmer and my gut tells me this is just a conditional statement in a line of code somewhere -- no different than the ACC floor conditional statement that exists in the code somewhere.
And look, they didn't fix it, instead they perpetuated it.
Really bad choice on the part of the developers not to spend the time to do this right and set a min range of 5' for all powers and get rid of stupid AT specific changes like this.
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I would add that they are perpetuating it again.
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No, the "temporary fix" interpretation is wishful thinking.
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Also Statesman said on 04/28/05:
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With Hurricane, a player could debuff Tanker and Scrapper melee attacks down to 0 meaning that the Scrappers and Tankers could NEVER be in range to use an attack.
Admittedly, Tankers and Scrappers have some Ranged abilities (ex.: Hurl) that it does make sense that Hurricane would affect them. This is something well work on in the future.
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I am not quite cynical enough to think that believing something Statesman said equates to "wishful thinking", although sometimes I am close.
I accept and understand that something like this may be difficult to code, and that over one year ago they needed to implement something quickly to make melee types not cry in a PvE hurricane. I have a much harder time accepting that in over a year they have not been able to implement a better fix to this situation.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
"Working on in the future" strikes me as similar to "soon." That is, it may happen, it may not. It doesn't really strike me as a definite. It may also be that it was determined that changing it wasn't really necessary.
I think that the basic problem is how debuffs are applied to characters, as I explained in an earlier post.
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I can believe that if there is a coding problem, then we live with this awkward and half-[censored] solution because of the coding problem.
I'm a programmer. I can believe the complexities. But if it's due to a coding problem, then please just say so.
Don't give me that crap about "Blasters aren't meant to melee therefore this is a good solution". That's just crap. Explain why a Blaster's Bonesmasher cannot reach through the Hurricane, but a Tanker's Bonesmasher can. Because the Blaster has OTHER options? Ridiculous answer. OTHER OPTIONS are, you know? OTHER OPTIONS! They're not what I'm using now. Why are two ATs using the same power, where the Blaster is actually using it BETTER (more damage)... and the Blaster's Bonesmasher is vulnerable to range debuffing while the Tanker's isn't?
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Because you do have other options. If a blaster can't hit a sorcerer with Total Focus, the blaster can hit the sorcerer with a ranged attack - and some blaster primaries have stuns or holds.
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Kali, I usually agree with your opinions, but I have to disagree here. The point isn't what options blasters have that melee AT's might or might not have (remember, with several APP's, tankers and scrappers have the option to get ranged holds now too.- They HAVE that option) but rather that what is an option for one AT is not for another AT using the SAME POWER. It makes no sense from an immersion or balance standpoint that Total Focus works one way for a tanker and another for a blaster. It's the same power, they even kept the same name, so why the different effects when used by different characters? A -range debuff should hit all ranged attacks and leave all melee attacks alone. That's intuitive, that's what actually makes sense, and that is the way they should make it work.
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"Other options" is a bad answer. They shouldn't affect THIS power. A melee attack is a melee attack, period. The source doesn't matter.
And what of Peacebringers? Do we count them as melee since their main attacks are melee and they have damage shield? Or do we count them as ranged since they have ranged attacks? What if they're in Tank form? What if they're in Nova form?
All sorts of questions that are caused by the silly solution of having range debuffs be AT-specific. If it's that much easier to code it that way, fine, admit it and we'll live with a less than right solution, but don't tell us "this IS the right solution".
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They admitted it was much easier to code this way when it was first implemented over a year ago. The fact is that the ATs with melee attacks that don't get the immunity have access to ranged attacks, so don't act like your only option is to use Total Focus or whine on the forum.
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So, what of peacebringers? Are they melee or ranged? What, intuitively, is the answer? And then, what do the devs say? Is this another spot where a player can easily make uninformed choices? Game mechanics should not require dozens of specific exceptions in order to be coherent. KISS as a primary design rule seems to be falling farther and farther away for the dev team (KISS- Keep It Simple Stupid, for those who don't know.) Keeping it simple, from a player perspective, would mean melee attacks are not subject to range debuffs, and melee attacks are. It maintains internal consistancy and means that the same set of rules applies at all times. I fail to understand why you're so set on defending a "fix" that just sets up a new set of mechanics with special exceptions, rather than implementing a real solution that keeps things simple for the players.
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
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Kali, I usually agree with your opinions, but I have to disagree here. The point isn't what options blasters have that melee AT's might or might not have (remember, with several APP's, tankers and scrappers have the option to get ranged holds now too.- They HAVE that option) but rather that what is an option for one AT is not for another AT using the SAME POWER. It makes no sense from an immersion or balance standpoint that Total Focus works one way for a tanker and another for a blaster. It's the same power, they even kept the same name, so why the different effects when used by different characters? A -range debuff should hit all ranged attacks and leave all melee attacks alone. That's intuitive, that's what actually makes sense, and that is the way they should make it work.
[/ QUOTE ]
And if they could have made it that way, they would have.
Anyway, in PVE, you'll find very few hurricanes from 41-50. I mean, a Task Force AV, and a few portal missions against Banished Pantheon seems to cover it. The advantage doesn't mean much at those levels, or really past level 30 at all.
[ QUOTE ]
So, what of peacebringers? Are they melee or ranged? What, intuitively, is the answer? And then, what do the devs say? Is this another spot where a player can easily make uninformed choices? Game mechanics should not require dozens of specific exceptions in order to be coherent. KISS as a primary design rule seems to be falling farther and farther away for the dev team (KISS- Keep It Simple Stupid, for those who don't know.) Keeping it simple, from a player perspective, would mean melee attacks are not subject to range debuffs, and melee attacks are. It maintains internal consistancy and means that the same set of rules applies at all times. I fail to understand why you're so set on defending a "fix" that just sets up a new set of mechanics with special exceptions, rather than implementing a real solution that keeps things simple for the players.
[/ QUOTE ]
Since Peacebringers have access to ranged attacks, they should be classified as ranged. if possible, the Dwarf should be immune to range debuffs, because it's all melee.
My Peacebringer relies most heavily on her melee attacks, fwiw.
I know what you want, and I agree that it would be a good thing. What you want is apparently not possible or easy with the engine, or they would have done it. Who knows, they may get around to it eventually? Until then, though, the best available solution - making melee ATs immune to range debuffing - should be used. If that means that characters with ranged options have their melee attacks debuffed...well, cry me a river. You have ranged attacks to get around that.
EPPs do give ranged ability to tankers and scrappers, but those are not available in the vast majority of situations where you'll face hurricane in PVE or PVP.
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Why is this the conceptual solution? Wouldn't it make more sense to make MELEE attacks, regardless of source, immune from range debuffing?
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...or at least put a minimum range cap in place, even if that shortens melee range. IIRC, that's the fix that was put in place for the mob version of Hurricane in PvE.
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Actually, the fix discussed in this thread (making melee ATs immune to the range debuff) is the fix that was put in place for Hurricane in PvE. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that this was somehow a PvP or primarily PvP fix, as it was implemented two issues before the arena.
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After doing some testing in the arena with a friend, we came to the conclusion that a blaster's melee attacks (secondary or power pool) were being debuffed to zero. They would only go off if the two characters were actually in physical contact with each other, and the repel on Hurricane is strong enough that you can't do that without a power that resists repel such as Unstoppable. It's literally impossible for a non-melee AT to get a melee attack off against a character running Hurricane.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's not crippling for him because he has ranged attacks in his primary. If a blaster can't Total Focus a defender, he can shoot the defender. If a brute can't Total Focus a defender, he can...what...wave Temporary Invulnerability at him?
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Hey, I'm the blaster that helped Soy test. I'm pure melee so thats why I expressed concern about the situation. This may not be the time fo a discussion on the PvP side of hurricane but not adjusting for blasters just cause they have ranged attacks isn't a good enough excuse for me.
Alot of Melee AT's get ranged attacks to (fire breath, claws, spines, stone melee, super strength immediately spring to mind) and all of the CoH ones have access to ranged attacks with app's. As a blaster there is inherent risks going into melee (which is where we are being pushed to with toggle dropping powers) already, why make it worse by having a single power negate our secondary.
Tho agree with all the stuff about brute melee changes in regards to hurricane anyways.
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Hey, I'm the blaster that helped Soy test. I'm pure melee so thats why I expressed concern about the situation. This may not be the time fo a discussion on the PvP side of hurricane but not adjusting for blasters just cause they have ranged attacks isn't a good enough excuse for me.
Alot of Melee AT's get ranged attacks to (fire breath, claws, spines, stone melee, super strength immediately spring to mind) and all of the CoH ones have access to ranged attacks with app's. As a blaster there is inherent risks going into melee (which is where we are being pushed to with toggle dropping powers) already, why make it worse by having a single power negate our secondary.
Tho agree with all the stuff about brute melee changes in regards to hurricane anyways.
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I'm not really arguing against fixing it for all melee attacks - I want them to solve it. Just, without that solution, this is the best available, and should be implemented.
I'd suggest, until they fix it, get a ranged hold. The -range alone isn't enough to kill your secondary - you should still be able to hit them. Two will kill your range to zero, I think. The repel, though, does kill it. 
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Range needs a limit to which it can be debuffed. I don't even understand the point behind a power that debuffs the range of people right next to you.