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This is a good point; I misunderstood you. However, since the difference between Heroic and Invincible is, er, 2 levels... I think that making one a death march and one an easy challenge is going to be.. hard.
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1SO, 3DOs, 2 Training enhancements. Try it out. It is not as hard to balance as you think.
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Remind me again: 1SO, 3SO, 6TOs max per power altogether, or is this a per-type restriction per power.
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The List of Problems:
Tanks do too much damage.
Scrappers are too tough.
Controllers get pets.
Defenders...... need to be looked at later.
Blasters...... are ok for now.
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Tanks fought to do 80% of the base damage of scrappers because it was (and still is) impossible to play Colossus, the Hulk, Strong Guy, and so forth. Spider-Man is more of a CoH tank: nigh-impossible to kill and does good damage while snarking off bad guys. Do not take away what the Tanker boards have begged to get since beta.
Some Scrappers are too tough. States has hinted that Invulnerability needs a little toning down. Reflexes and Dark Armor have very real problems. Regeneration has been a rollercoaster. I suspect if there were more than 4 Scrapper secondaries there would be more woes to list.
The problem is not that Controllers get pets. The problem is that Controllers get pets only late in the game, and not all Controllers at that. Ergo, Controllers can't solo for 64% of their career and then suddenly they can -- some can very well.
Defenders are, for the most part, fine. Multi-role classes typically suffer from the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome.
Some Blasters are okay. Some are not. If you take all of your primary and secondary powers and only a travel power, then you're probably not okay (unless you're */Ene or */Dev).
There are exceptions to all of the above. To paraphrase Statesman: "It's not that all X's are broken. It's that some X powersets are broken."
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Remind me again: 1SO, 3SO, 6TOs max per power altogether, or is this a per-type restriction per power.
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Correct. 1 SO in a power max, 3 DOs in a power max and six TOs max. Any all origin (Hammidon, Eden, Hydra) enhancements will go take up an SO for slotting puposes.
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I've never been against it, really. I just think that it will take longer (2-3x) and be less fun or everyone involved.
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Why? Are you assuming that after the game is balanced that the amount of XP given by mobs can't change? Perhaps if red and purple mobs were a challenge for a group the devs would raise the xp on them? Seems reasonable. The Devs have raised the xp on mobs that are more dangerous to reflect risk VS. reward so I so no reason to assume that if there was an appropriate level of risk the devs would not give an approriate xp reward. Or in other words it will not slow the game down as much as you think.
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Remind me again: 1SO, 3SO, 6TOs max per power altogether, or is this a per-type restriction per power.
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Correct. 1 SO in a power max, 3 DOs in a power max and six TOs max. Any all origin (Hammidon, Eden, Hydra) enhancements will go take up an SO for slotting puposes.
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That's what I remembered.
Do you think this, as an unfortunate side effect, punishes people that currently slot for variety to begin with? If I want to slot recharge, or range into my attacks, I now have to choose whether I get to have an SO of range, or an SO of damage, and that really takes the wind out of the sails of slotting variety.
Would it be better if the restriction was 1SO of each type maximum? So that it was still legal to slot 1 SO of damage, 1 SO of accuracy, and 1 SO of range into a power?
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[ QUOTE ]
Tanks fought to do 80% of the base damage of scrappers because it was (and still is) impossible to play Colossus, the Hulk, Strong Guy, and so forth. Spider-Man is more of a CoH tank: nigh-impossible to kill and does good damage while snarking off bad guys. Do not take away what the Tanker boards have begged to get since beta.
Some Scrappers are too tough. States has hinted that Invulnerability needs a little toning down. Reflexes and Dark Armor have very real problems. Regeneration has been a rollercoaster. I suspect if there were more than 4 Scrapper secondaries there would be more woes to list.
The problem is not that Controllers get pets. The problem is that Controllers get pets only late in the game, and not all Controllers at that. Ergo, Controllers can't solo for 64% of their career and then suddenly they can -- some can very well.
Defenders are, for the most part, fine. Multi-role classes typically suffer from the "jack of all trades, master of none" syndrome.
Some Blasters are okay. Some are not. If you take all of your primary and secondary powers and only a travel power, then you're probably not okay (unless you're */Ene or */Dev).
There are exceptions to all of the above. To paraphrase Statesman: "It's not that all X's are broken. It's that some X powersets are broken."
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I agree with what you said, Adron.
I made that post from the "power-nerfer's" point of view. I posted what I posted to show that balancing in the near term is either pointless or bad.
Specifically, there are as many opinions on balance as there are people, and they're all wrong...even me! 
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Why? Are you assuming that after the game is balanced that the amount of XP given by mobs can't change? Perhaps if red and purple mobs were a challenge for a group the devs would raise the xp on them? Seems reasonable. The Devs have raised the xp on mobs that are more dangerous to reflect risk VS. reward so I so no reason to assume that if there was an appropriate level of risk the devs would not give an approriate xp reward. Or in other words it will not slow the game down as much as you think.
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Concern, I have great respect for you as a source of good ideas. That said, I can't go along with this.
If the game truly becomes harder, leveling will slow. The downtime between taking on more powerful mobs for more XP will ensure this. I was going to rant about this in a seperate post, but I'll get into it a little here....
Consider the new Elude. It's the poster child for the new slower game. I agree that it shouldn't have been perma. I agree that it's a situational power.
OK, now that that is out of the way, let's look at how people play the game (something the Devs don't do, as was recently shown).
How is the new Elude useful? It's not. To me it's not even worth taking. The reason is that it's a 3 minute power with a 12+ minute recycle time. This is entirely unfeasable in practical use.
Can I clear a mission in 3 minutes? No.
Do single fights last that long? No.
Is an AV/Monster encounter over in 3 minutes? No.
I can't use it in every encounter, and I can't use it to chain encounters, and it doesn't last long enough to be of use in AV fights. I call that either "lots of downtime" or "don't take the power".
If Elude was perma-able and one third as effective, I'd take it. If it lasted 15 minutes and had a 12 hour downtime, I'd take it. Anything else is simply an occasional boost, and I'd rather not even bother fooling with it.
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Concern, I have great respect for you as a source of good ideas. That said, I can't go along with this.
If the game truly becomes harder, leveling will slow. The downtime between taking on more powerful mobs for more XP will ensure this. I was going to rant about this in a seperate post, but I'll get into it a little here....
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Leaving aside perma-elude for the moment, I actually agree with Concern about the difficulty. I think, and have always thought, that a superhero game should not have heros defeating hundreds and thousands of villains. I've already defeated more villains in a year than every single Marvel and DC hero has defeated in seventy years combined. I think each and every fight should be a longer and more tactical affair. Not harder, necessarily - longer. Longer fights give time for actual tactics to come into play, create less opportunities for eye-blink oops-you're-dead issues, and more time to allow a variety of powers and effects to have an effect.
This wouldn't necessarily slow down leveling speed, because as Concern mentioned, you can always recalibrate xp per villain to compensate. Consider that people like doing missions now, even with the downtime between missions, because they are fun, and also because the bonuses are more than just the seat-cushion loose change they used to give us.
If you could earn half a bar of xp for fighting one boss and a couple of his minions in half an hour, I think that would be better than earning half a bar of xp for fighting two hundred minions in a half an hour.
Actually, I was a proponent of putting dampening fields in the arena (like jails) that would slow down the combat there - lower damage, health recovery, and a little less end drain, so that fights wouldn't be over in a couple shots.
That's in principle. In practice, there's a lot of catches. For the casual player, they might not be able to finish a mission in the one hour a day they have to play - missions would have to be interruptable or continuable the next day.
I think the fights we now have with AVs is kinda what boss fights should be like. The devs don't want AVs to be soloable, but that means one on one 10 minute or 15 minute fights - some of the most enjoyable - are going to go away. Bosses will never be that hard, and AVs are going to be put out of reach.
Upping the difficulty - and the xp reward - gives some wiggle room to create those knock-down drag-out fights that are both enjoyable for large teams and also enjoyable for a solo player.
Wouldn't it feel really heroic if every once in a while, say once or twice a level, you were forced to fight a really tough baddie that took you a really long time to beat, and bang, two or three bars of xp for chasing him all across Talos and finally nailing him at the foot of the Talos statue?
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[ QUOTE ]
Wouldn't it feel really heroic if every once in a while, say once or twice a level, you were forced to fight a really tough baddie that took you a really long time to beat, and bang, two or three bars of xp for chasing him all across Talos and finally nailing him at the foot of the Talos statue?
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If this wasn't a casual-play solo-friendly MMO? Sure! That would be awesome!
I fail to see how that would be workable in CoH though... but what do you mean by a really long time? 5 minutes? 15? Half an hour?
This idea has merit...but as always the devil's in the details. Of course, such a mighty foe would be immune to holds and debuffs, most likely, so I fail to see how a Controller/Blaster/Defender could participate as well.
One good thing about this idea is that we'd finally get a "acceptable XP/Hour" number out of the Devs...
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If you could earn half a bar of xp for fighting one boss and a couple of his minions in half an hour, I think that would be better than earning half a bar of xp for fighting two hundred minions in a half an hour.
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Good plan. It will make missions seem more Heroic.
Some builds can't deal with multiple Lieutenants, or any Bosses at all while soloing. It would take a lot of rebalancing for the game to support this. 
Blasters don't have long, drawn out fights. I wish they could. Blasters bushwhack some poor villain or die within 15 seconds, usually...
Currently playing:
Infaerna Who knew Fire/Fire Brutes were fun to play?
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This idea has merit...but as always the devil's in the details. Of course, such a mighty foe would be immune to holds and debuffs, most likely, so I fail to see how a Controller/Blaster/Defender could participate as well.
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Blasters don't have long, drawn out fights. I wish they could. Blasters bushwhack some poor villain or die within 15 seconds, usually...
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The way difficulty is handled in the game is usually "more, more, more" which creates problems for blasters. Ironically, especially for people who disagree with nerfs on principle, "less, less, less" might be better for this reason: with big numbers flying around, someone is going to lose, and lose big. And its blasters, who might be able to throw big, but can't eat big, that will get squished by the "bigger=better" arms race.
If we did less, the developers could theoretically allow the foes to do less, and we'd have a slower game all around. Slower in terms of raw numbers, anyway.
With lower numbers, the devs could afford to do things like speed us up, so the game is a little more action-oriented, and less waiting-around oriented. They could make things hard less by making everything able to kill you, and more by making things harder for you to kill. "Risk" would be less "risk of death" and more "risk of failure." You fail to complete the mission on time; less xp. You fail to rescue Joe Shmuck so the Malta relocate him; you have to do it again. You fail to defeat that last carnie, and instead of wandering around a bunch of caves for an hour, the carnie makes a break for it and escapes, warning the Dark Ring Mistress, and forcing you to do another mission to defeat *her*. It wouldn't take all that much work to add this; the missions could be randomly generated filler when you "fail."
Heroes do sometimes die, or get seriously incapacitated. But usually, they just *fail*. You can still make "failure" cost something; no mission bonus is comparable to death (not numerically identical, just the concept).
I have never argued against the death-penalty in CoH - I was on the side of the devs when that one made its rounds. But I do think that the game could be predicated more on the risk of other bad, xp-slowing events other than death.
When we do less damage, and the villains do less damage, the thing most likely to happen to a blaster that isn't currently scrapper-locked is the blaster has to run away. And the villain might give chase. And the blaster might still die, but its more the case that the blaster's vulnerability is causing the blaster to slow down by being unable to defeat the villain in a timely manner, or faster than the villain is whittling the blaster down, and thus must disengage. You'd die only if you decided to roll the dice and hang in there.
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If this wasn't a casual-play solo-friendly MMO? Sure! That would be awesome!
I fail to see how that would be workable in CoH though... but what do you mean by a really long time? 5 minutes? 15? Half an hour?
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My own feelings of what would be a good time are highly subjective, but my feeling is that missions should be all about sneaking past or running over the minions and LTs guarding the "goal" or "goals" (the boss, the crate, the prisoner, etc) in anything from 5 minutes to thirty minutes, on average, but the "climactic battle" at the end, if its a boss, could be ten to fifteen minutes at least, all on its own. Minions wouldn't go up in difficulty all that much, LTs somewhat (to near boss-like levels now) and Bosses to near AV-levels now. But remember, while I say "AV-like" - this is in the new regime where Bosses don't have the damage to just one-shot you, I mean AV-like in the sense of having a lot of health and defenses, and should take a long time to whittle down. Maybe they have extra trickery, like immobilizes, holds, summons, whatever - but still, in a lower-numbers game, these things are a problem, not insta-death, even for a blaster (most of the time).
Its a thought, and I'll be the first to admit, its more of a concept than a full-fledged suggestion. The principle sounds nice, but to actually implement this would be a significant undertaking to balance out all around. But since they seem to need to do that anyway, perhaps the extra work required to gravitate in this direction is no higher than what they are doing now. They may even be moving in a direction similar to this now, and we just don't know it.
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[ QUOTE ]
That's what I remembered.
Do you think this, as an unfortunate side effect, punishes people that currently slot for variety to begin with? If I want to slot recharge, or range into my attacks, I now have to choose whether I get to have an SO of range, or an SO of damage, and that really takes the wind out of the sails of slotting variety.
Would it be better if the restriction was 1SO of each type maximum? So that it was still legal to slot 1 SO of damage, 1 SO of accuracy, and 1 SO of range into a power?
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That is kinda the funny thing. My scrapper friend found that because he was looking at diminishing returns if he slotted all one kind of enhancement it actually allowed him to slot different kinds of enhancements. For myself it was the same way.
Did I really want to put those damage TOs in or perhaps I should put in some disorient TOs to make that disorient last just long enough that I can chain disorient. It is interesting how it works out in play but sometimes just the TOs are enough to make the secondary effects worthwhile. You can still slot for damage or accuracy however you choose. Heck if you had a high accuracy attack you may put accuracy TOs in and leave the other SOs and DOs as something else rather going the 1/5 method.
It's interesting. I am glad that you understood my point about the dangers of balancing upwards. It can be done but the flavor of the game will change in the process. The ATs won't be the same as they were at release.
We should do more damage then scrappers. We have low hit points and if anyone get close to us we have no defense to protect us. Scrappers have plenty of powers that keep them alive, so the idea that they should get more cause they are close to the action is false. If a blaster is close to the action he is dead.
We need to be able to deal the damage at range to live.
As much as I hate nerfs, I have to agree with Concern. The only way the game is going to regain any sort of balance is to bring everything down a bit. The game has been stretched to a point where it is no longer possible to fix things by moving upwards. An EXTREMELY basic example:
Character - Damage/Defense
Blaster - High/Low
Tanker - Low/High
Enemy - Med/Med
This works out ok. The blaster does a lot of damage, but takes a lot in return. It defeats the enemy because it can take them down fast enough. The tank is safe, but takes a little longer to take down. Now, we boost both players:
Blaster - Extreme/Low
Tanker - Low/Extreme
Now the Blaster is at no threat, because it kills everything too easily. The tanker is completely without risk, but becomes much too slow compared to the blaster. Balancing this is impossible because both sides have completely different problems. Since they fight the same enemy, we would have to boost both sides of the foe:
Enemy - High/High
Now the blaster is screwed because he can't survive the enemy damage and the tanker is screwed because he can't take the enemy out. Our only option is to boost blaster defense and tanker offense, but that breaks the concepts of both ATs and begins to blur the class distinctions.
I remember a REALLY long time ago, Positron mentioned that only 3 SO's of a single type would have an effect on a power. I think he was under the impression that you couldn't enhance past 100%. He was wrong, but it could be possible that that was the intention all along.
Just wondering if any other blasters have had the issues I've encountered since the update.
My accuracy has fallen dramatically. To test it, I fought 10 yellow minions. Which averaged out to only one hit in five actually connecting. Highly dissapointed I tried the same thing on some blue minions. After another ten slow deaths, my accuracy proved to even out just over 50%. All this with dual origion accuracy enhancements equiped. Ive delt with the low damage caps, the poor choice in secondaries, but this really hurts.
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Just wondering if any other blasters have had the issues I've encountered since the update.
My accuracy has fallen dramatically. To test it, I fought 10 yellow minions. Which averaged out to only one hit in five actually connecting. Highly dissapointed I tried the same thing on some blue minions. After another ten slow deaths, my accuracy proved to even out just over 50%. All this with dual origion accuracy enhancements equiped. Ive delt with the low damage caps, the poor choice in secondaries, but this really hurts.
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Sure did, then I read the detailed update page and turned off SS/Superjump as appropriate and continued kicking (pre 30) or prodding (post 30) buttock.
I did this with one of my scrappers too, I was thinking, dang, this is one tough rikti drone, then, oops, changed SJ over to CJ, and bam, two shots later, no problem
Maybe I should of read that update after my morning coffee.
I do thank you for the information though. Although this does stink quite a bit. Running around and sniping people while super speed selcudes you is (was) this blasters primary defensive mechanism. I can understand why SS got changed, but I don't see why somthing that was working should be messed with. All of us whove been robbed of the usefullness of SS should get a free respec from the devs.
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Maybe I should of read that update after my morning coffee.
I do thank you for the information though. Although this does stink quite a bit. Running around and sniping people while super speed selcudes you is (was) this blasters primary defensive mechanism. I can understand why SS got changed, but I don't see why somthing that was working should be messed with. All of us whove been robbed of the usefullness of SS should get a free respec from the devs.
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*points at the free respec that came with issue 4*
Furio--Lvl 50+3 Fire/Fire/Fire Blaster, Virtue
Megadeth--Lvl 50+3 Necro/DM/Soul MM, Virtue
Veriandros--Lvl 50+3 Crab Soldier, Virtue
"So come and get me! I'll be waiting for ye, with a whiff of the old brimstone. I'm a grim bloody fable, with an unhappy bloody end!" Demoman, TF2
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Maybe I should of read that update after my morning coffee.
I do thank you for the information though. Although this does stink quite a bit. Running around and sniping people while super speed selcudes you is (was) this blasters primary defensive mechanism. I can understand why SS got changed, but I don't see why somthing that was working should be messed with. All of us whove been robbed of the usefullness of SS should get a free respec from the devs.
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*points at the free respec that came with issue 4*
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Read the dev tracker thread religiously. In it, you'll see that they're going to remove the -Acc and instead have SJ & SS temporarily self-suppress after you attack.
This basically saves us from pressing buttons, as we would instead have to SS over, turn it off, shoot, turn it on, and SS away. Now the transmission in the car is automatic rather than manual.
I believe that the acc losses hurt us blasters the most. I can count on one of 5 - 7 shot attempts actually hits its mark. Those shots mean the difference between winning & losing.
The only player chars that should be able to avoid my attacks are scrappers and those with speed and teleport pwrs. I think that a blaster's acc should be based on range from the target
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Maybe I should of read that update after my morning coffee.
I do thank you for the information though. Although this does stink quite a bit. Running around and sniping people while super speed selcudes you is (was) this blasters primary defensive mechanism. I can understand why SS got changed, but I don't see why somthing that was working should be messed with. All of us whove been robbed of the usefullness of SS should get a free respec from the devs.
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The SS/SJ 'nerf' isnt staying, State's already said so, the -50% accuracy thing was something that was implimented to fix certain concerns, but what it should be is currently under discussion in the test area, and SS/SJ will not have that -50% acc debuff for long, the power will just be momentarily supressed when you use an attack instead. check El'States post on the matter here
Don't mean to sound really stupid, but I have an Ice blaster and all three of my Single target attacks are 5 damage 1acc SOs and fighting +3's i average 90% hit rates. what are you fighting that you can only hit once out of 5 attacks?
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what are you fighting that you can only hit once out of 5 attacks?
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I'm gonna guess "the forces of rhetoric and bad math" but it could be a PvP thing, I dunno.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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Don't mean to sound really stupid, but I have an Ice blaster and all three of my Single target attacks are 5 damage 1acc SOs and fighting +3's i average 90% hit rates. what are you fighting that you can only hit once out of 5 attacks?
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He's got SS or SJ running, which right now is eating 50% of his accuracy. Hover blaster like me has no problem hitting as normal, though I get the usual occasional odd streak (pausing just a second seems to break the miss streaks, though).
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Man, if one of the side effects of adjusting the average power level downward is to cut way back on the mezzing in the game, I'm all for it.
I'm not even against adjusting the average power level downward, as long as the end result is a fairly equitable playing field.
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I've never been against it, really. I just think that it will take longer (2-3x) and be less fun or everyone involved.
I'll elaborate on that for the nerf-happy people. I'll admit that in a perfect world taking everyone down to a weaker level would be a great idea. I also believe in Communism, too. The problem with these great ideas is people.
Let's ignoring the reality of human behavior for a moment and check out the nerf everyone to make the game better idea.
Nerf Change: PvE is too easy. Obviously, I agree that PvE is too easy for some people with some builds. So let's fix it!
The List of Problems:
Tanks do too much damage.
Scrappers are too tough.
Controllers get pets.
Defenders...... need to be looked at later.
Blasters...... are ok for now.
Well, the Tank fix is to do 66% damage from Blasters, the same as Defenders do now. Both support damage ATs should do 2/3 base damage - that's balanced, after all. We could lower Tank defense as a balancing move, instead, but CoH is teaming-friendly, so that's out.
Scrappers by slotting all Defense, can get too tough. I'll ignore for now that slotting defensively should be a player option, and just (wrongly) assume it's a problem in capability, not customization. So, sure, let's keep the Issue 4 proposed Regen changes. The /Invuln set will be stay the same, but the Resistance cap will be set to 66% (that number again...odd...). SR will be left alone, but a Defense cap of 132% (for the SR set powers) will be put into place. That should floor a +1 boss, so that should be enough for Scrappers.
Ah. Controller pets. Well, we could always set the recharge time to 10 minutes. That would ensure no herds of pets, right there.
As far as SOs, go, let's not make them rare. Let's not make them expensive. Let's just change all enhancements to 5%/10%/20%. That should work fine.
Allowing 30% enhancements for drops only is a great idea, but then people will try to farm them, or worse yet, they will be considered "loot", like a +4 sword in EQ2. That's the last thing that CoH needs.
Or......we could just make the 5/10/20 SO change and reduce the effect of Hasten to about where Quickness is. That would be about the same level of change. Except that Blasters would still need some kind of minor boost.
This sounds simple and makes sense and would work. I wouldn't like it, but I'm the minority. The real problem is in the way that the developers will implement this change. From past experience, they tend to look at indivdual ATs, and then power sets in that AT. I'll be generous and assume that they change a whole AT at once. This isn't likely from past updates...let's look into the future:
Issue 4 - Scrappers get rebalanced a bit. Some powergamers start to play Tanks. Some players quit.
Issue 5 - Tanks get nerfed to where they should be: Weaker than in Issue 3. Powergamers that played Tanks start to play Controllers. Enhancements are made more expensive. Many players quit.
Issue 6 - Controllers get nerfed in some way. Likely Pets. Powergamers that played Controllers start to play Defenders. Enhancements are made cheap again, but weakened. Some players quit.
Issue 7 - Defender debuffs are weaked signifigantly. Blasters get some sort of resistance avoidance for attack powers. Any Powergamers left start to play Blasters. Blasters have damage reduced slightly to compensate. CoH is now "balanced". Remaining players rejoice, I guess.
I would rather that Mobs start to use Defender powers, to replace some (useless) Controller powers. Oh, and Blasters get 10-25% more damage. That's one issue, and noone needs to get nerfed. But, I'm entitled to my own wrong opinion, so I guess this suggestion won't get far.
Happy playing!
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