Rad Defender Superteam

I started putting together a big analysis on how to make the perfect team of Defenders and/or Controllers. The idea is that with the right mix, you get a team that buffs itself and debuffs mobs so much that it is unstoppable. After doing my analysis, I came to the conclusion that the perfect team has all Radiation Defender Primary powers. Controllers can be added after a few levels if they take the Radiation Secondary. Here’s why, assuming everyone starts as a Defender…

At level 2, everyone gets Accelerate Metabolism. Then everyone activates them at the same time. This gives everyone +200% damage, +240% recharge reduction, major END Recovery buff, major Run buff, and major status resistance. Note that this is Perma-AM because it recharges before it wears off.

At level 2, you can run through Atlas Park at high-speed one-shotting mobs at an amazing rate. At level 4 when you pick up your second attack, your can attack almost non-stop, as one attack recharges while the other is animating. If half the party takes Radiant Aura and the other half Radiation Infection, the mobs won’t hit much, and you’ve got healing covered. At level 2, city zones are a waste of time. Hit hazard and trial zones ASAP, and tear through them.

NOTE: You do NOT slot your attacks at all. There is no need.
NOTE: No one takes Hasten or Stamina, you don’t need them.

It gets better. At 6, those who can take AoE or Cone attacks do so, while others take Enervating Field. Minions are defeated instantly, so debuffs go on bosses. Single target attacks are only needed on Lts and Bosses.

Between levels 6-10, each person takes some of Maneuvers, Tactics, Enervating Field, Grant Invisibility, or Recall Friend. Enervating Field makes the mobs drop faster and hurt you less if they do hit. Grant Invisibility lets you run right up to mobs before attacking, so they don’t spread out. A Rad Controller with AoE Immobilize can do the same. You start going after level+4 mobs for the XP, and they still drop like flies.

By level 16, everyone takes Assault. Combined with AM, that gives +300% damage without slotting a single thing in your attack powers.

At 18 combat opens with a few Choking Clouds (Toggle:PBAoE Hold) and Enervating Fields before the mobs get slaughtered. 8 Choking Clouds will probably choke an AV when their status protection dips.

Monsters and AVs go down pretty quickly. They probably still hit despite the massive Defense buffs and To-Hit debuffs, but not for much due to Enervating Field. And that same field combined with +300% damage on rapidly cycling attacks is REAL punishing. By 20 everyone should have Radiant Aura for healing, just in case.

Time passes. People advance in levels REAL fast. Some people get bored, try something else, but then come back. 8 stacked AMs is like Crack on steroids.

Coast to 32. Every combat starts with a couple EM Pulses now.

Coast to 38. Every combat starts and immediately ends with a couple EM Pulses and level 38 AoE Extreme damage blasts.

Coast to 45. Start Hamidon Raids. Sniper Shot with 6 slotted range is real nice for Hamidon raids, and you’ll have the spare slots to do it. And since everyone in range of AM gets the buff, you’ll have a lot of friends. The fast recharge and damage bonus means you can increase the DPS of nearby blasters by a factor of about 4!!!

What powers do you skip in the Radiation Primary? No one needs Mutation. Defeat should be very rare, and Awakens should suffice. Everything but AVs and Monsters die too fast for Lingering Radiation to be useful, but you still might pick it up just for them. You don’t need the damage from Fallout, so you can skip that. (Unless you take melee types on a Hamidon raid. :-)

What powers do you skip in your Secondary? About half of them. You need the first 2 primary attacks, one or two AoEs, and the big blast at 38. Aim is completely useless, and big attacks are overkill. Sniper may be good for Hamidon raids.

What Power Pools do you take? Everyone needs Leadership. Some people need Concealment and some need Teleport, but a lot will probably take both. Some might take Flight and Group Fly. No one needs Speed or Fitness, or hardly anything else.

How do you slot your powers? That’s a really good question. You shouldn’t need to worry much about Endurance, Damage, Accuracy, or Recharge because those are all handled by other stacked buffs. That doesn’t leave much.

You don’t put ANY slots in attack powers. Use the free slot for damage before 16, and just in case you don’t get in a team of 8. Cone attacks could use a Cone Range Increase to make it larger.

Radiant Aura needs slots to be effective (6 recommended); it’s too small otherwise. Slot AM with recharge if you can’t get in 8 people teams all the time, just so it’s permanent. Maybe add Endurance Recovery if that buff isn’t big enough. Teleport can be 6 slotted with Range. You might as well slot Maneuvers and Tactics to full, since you probably won’t needs the slots for much of anything else. Those with Grant Invisibility may want to fully slot it for defense, see below.

What can kill this team? Anyone who can drop all of their toggles. Without Enervating Field, Maneuvers, and Radiation Infection, big groups of mobs can kill quickly. Fortunately, AM gives resistance to Sleep, Hold, and Disorient. Unfortunately, the team needs to stay together for Leadership buffs, so AoE status attacks hit most everyone. Grant Invisibility is a click power so it won’t get dropped, but it is high maintenance to constantly recast.


Time for some questions…
What did I miss?
What is wrong?
Are any controllers even needed?
Who has done this before?
How did it work out?
Is Running capped below SuperSpeed?
How effective is the status protection from AM?
What Defender Secondaries have the fastest animation times?

And an important one…
Would you make up a level 1 char to try this out?
If yes, look for Buffer Master, leader of the Buffer Overrun SG on Freedom.

you may be right. we have a bunch of Rad/Rads in our SG. The HAMBOTS. Concept group, all hamsters in mecha. They are amazing en masse. The only problem with your power picks/slotting is no one on your team could solo or contribute to a different team. They are utterly dependent on the rad/rad synergy.

So if you can find 8 people to play together exclusively as rad/rads, great. If not then you are SOL.

It's only the Rad Primary that's important. You can select different Secondaries if it matters. And the builds have a lot of room for variation.

This type of build could contribute significantly to a group, but granted not as much as a non-synergy oriented build. Maneuvers and Tactics max-slotted can be nice, and the usual Rad toggles work fine. Recall Friend and Grant Invis are group friendly. But the lack of slotting on attack powers would significantly limit soloing. And the lack of slotting END reducers on toggles would be a problem.

Here's an option. Make sure you slot AM with recharge and END Recovery. If there aren't enough Rad defenders for an 8 man team, fill it out with Blasters. They have the slotted attacks and do damage. A few debuffs soften the mobs up considerably.

But the real answer is... Use Global Chat in Update 3 to make sure you always have big teams and stacked buffs. And post messages like this on the boards to get lots of people in the SG, so you always have enough people to do at least one team at normal playing hours. And keep bumping your thread by posting relevant information.

Maybe start a flame war.

On that note, let me just say YOU'RE WRONG!!! I dare you to post a rebuttal!

One correction to my earlier post. Swap Assault and Tactics, as Tactics is the third power in the set. You get Tactics by level 16, and probably Assault earlier. That means the entire team may be at the damage cap of +300% around level 10.

Early testing is going well. With 6 people (including 1 Earth/Rad controller), we were dropping things pretty easily. We didn't have perma-AM, but we did usually have several up at once. It was a good proof-of-concept. Still looking for more people to hit critical mass of 8 people on together. (If you're interested, Freedom server, look for Buffer Master.)

We did the Sewers to get everyone to 6. I charged into the middle of mobs with EF, the Controller did Stone Cages, then came the other debuffs, one AoE attack, and a lot of single target attacks to finish things off. People were dinging often. It looks like EF and early AoEs are the key. My char is Rad/Dark, and I picked Dark for the supposedly fast animation times of the first two attacks. Now I don't think Dark is a particularly good Secondary. The AoE is a slow higher-level DoT. Rad secondary has two attacks that are nearly as fast, followed by two AoE/cone attacks, and another one at 35 before the big nuke at 38. The Rad cone attack, Electron Haze, seems to be one of the best options with only knockdown and high damage up front. So I will probably reroll Buffer Master as a Rad/Rad Defender before he gets too high level.

Also, Maneuvers and Grant Invis may be more important early on. The first person to draw agro needs to be protected somehow. At really low levels the mobs alpha strike isn't too bad. But even if you toss EF first, the alpha strike from a higher level hazard zone mob group can take you out. With stacked slotted Maneuvers and Grant Invis, the problem goes away. So the recommended build is AoE (if possible) or EF at level 6, Maneuvers or Grant Invis at level 8, and slot it fast.

Back to tonight... Then we hit the Hollows. We picked up a Blaster in the Hollows for added firepower, since we were down to 4 Rad defenders. He decided to create a new Rad Defender after he saw how well it worked. I think that'll become a standard recruiting tactic. :-) If we're lucky, we'll have 8 people to sweep Perez tomorrow.

Logging out tonight I got the Update 3 download. I look forward to Striga Isle with an all-Rad team.

Interesting idea. I like it. Rad is a great primary and multiple rads usually means massive debuff, but I never thought about the buff side. I have to say that rad secondary probably is the best choice, though I really wouldn't count out Psychic Blast and Dark, those would work really well in that combo too.

I may try to start up the same kind of thing on protector server, I already know a few rads that would probably help out with some testing.

A friend and I have started an ALL Rad/* SG on the Virtue server, Fallout Shelter, if interested send a tell to Chernoble.
/end shameless plug

Actaully EF is a rather endurance heavy toggle, for the levels with out Stamina I suggest going RI due to it's not that END heavy. Also if you want to be able to have Perma-AM you are going to have to get AM slotted with 6 Recharge, and maybe a 4-5 slotted Hasten, that should give you Perma-AM and Perma-Hasten.

Also with 6-8 AM stacked all you should need is Tactics, it's like putting SO Acc in all your attacks (unslotted)

I was running around with a group in Steel, the team was all Rad/* defenders and the team was a: 11,9,7,7,6,6,6,5 and we were defeating lvl 13 LT's that's what stacked AM and RI can do, only one guy had EF and by the time it was down, it would be dead.

That's just what you can do with an all Rad/* team.

Some more observations...

I did some timing tests. AM gives +30% Recharge Reduction, lasts 120 seconds, and has a base recharge time of 420 seconds (not counting itself). 8 stacked AMs with a single training Recharge Reduction enh should give a recharge time of 120 seconds. That's perma-AM.

You really need 6+ Rad Defenders or Controllers for critical mass. Fewer than that and you have AM downtime long enough to cause problems.

No need to slot AM at low levels if you always have enough people. The problem is getting enough people. In the early levels, your slots are better off being spent on Radiation Infection and Radiation Aura. But once you start getting enough toggles at 10+, it may be good to add slots to AM for END Recovery.

Kaor01, Enervating Field may be an END hog, but there's no problem running it and RI and attacking at high speed with enough stacked AMs. One stat I saw claims AM is the equivalent of Stamina unslotted. Stack 8 AMs and you could run Enervating Field and still gain END fast. At higher levels with more toggles (the entire Leadership line), you may need to slot a few END Recovery enhancers just in case.

Darkening_Flame (or anyone else), stop by Freedom tonight (Dec 6) around 8:00 PM EST. Bring your friends! I'm going to shamelessly bribe people with Influence to try this build starting at level 1. Try it for an hour and see if you like it.

You really need a lot of Rads to get this going. Most builds increase the Damage Per Second (DPS) of a team at best linearly. A team of 4 Blasters & Scrappers will increase it's DPS if it goes up to 8 of the same by a factor of x2. But they'll start dying due to larger mob sizes, so they'll have to cut down on the damage classes (and DPS) and add some support that puts out less DPS.

This Rad team will increase its DPS by a factor of about 8 if it goes from 4 members to 8, and they'll be safer! 4 Rads get +100% damage about 60% of the time. 8 Rads get +200% damage all the time. That works out to a bit less than x2 damage. Everyone is blasting so you get x2 damage from having x2 people. 4 Rads can maintain 4 Radiation Infections, but probably not 4 Enervating Fields during combat, due to the END cost. 8 Rads with perma-AM can maintain 8 stacked Enervating Fields, so I'll give that a conservative x2 damage from the mob Resistance debuff.

Why is it safer? The mob DPS may actually drop going from a 4 Rad team to an 8 Rad team, even though there are lots more mobs, more Lts and Bosses, and higher level. The mobs will be even more debuffed by stacked RI and EF. More people with Maneuvers and Grant Invis at level 10+ can cut down on the mob's Alpha Strike before the debuffs all take hold. More people with Radiant Aura (PBAoE Heal) can heal damage.

I'm not trying to nitpick, because frankly, I've always wanted to try a group like this, but I really only play on the Victory server, but there was one thing I noticed about the build. It is very toggle heavy, and late game there are many mobs, as we all know, that use primarily status effects before their heavy melee attacks. While Accelerated Metabolism provides reduced status effect time, it provides no resistance to such effects. They have just as high a chance of hitting (based on your defense of course), they just have a much shorter effect duration. Even if the duration is only .0000001 seconds, that still means toggles have dropped and people can get one shotted. I would still recommend investing in some mez protection like CJ or Acrobatics.

Cap

I would love to run with a Rad/* team I tried speaking to Chernoble on Virtue, but haven't bumped into him yet -- I'd definitely start a hero for that SG. And I'll try to show up on Victory tonight.


I agree with Cap about mez effects. It's just like why the devs changed the Kheldian's bonus from being grouped with Controllers to mez protection instead of mez resistance: teamed with 7 Controllers, they'd still get held, it'd just be over before you blinked. But it still drops toggles.

I'll definitely take Leaping on any kind of "Offender" build I'd make. And if we take Medicine, we can spend time spamming Stimulant in between blasts. Not that that's any fun , but a high mag hold or stacked holds will overcome Acro, so better have a backup plan for Chief Mesmerists and the like.

Having never done this at high levels, I assumed that AM gave something like a Magnitude 1 resistance to most status effects. My understanding is that you are immune to status effects until they beat your resistance. That means you would have to be hit by several big attacks, or lots of smaller ones, before you actually got Stunned or whatever. Running around in the Hollows and getting smashed by Bricks, I don't recall ever seeing anyone in the team wandering around Stunned if AM was up. But, if you're right and I'm wrong, then I see your point. Can anyone else confirm that AM ONLY reduces the time?

I've got 2 Blasters near 40 with CJ and Acrobatics. CJ gives you some magnitude of Immobilize resistance. Acrobatics give some magnitude of protection against knockdown, and some protection against Holds that I haven't studied. So taking 3 powers gives you some resistance against 1 type of status attack that affects toggles. Immobilization isn't a problem when mobs are massively debuffed. Knockdown isn't a problem unless it is chained, which I haven't seen. You really recommend taking those powers?

I've already theorized about this a bit, since I don't really know how this will play out at higher levels. I've started recommending Grant Invis, as it's a click power with a moderate duration. It's high maintenance, but a full group casting it fully slotted on every player will put everything up to +1 bosses down to 5% chance to hit versus direct attacks. (Supposedly, pool powers like Maneuvers and Grant Invis don't provide defense against AoE attacks.) Assuming Radiation Infection will debuff the accuracy of AoE attacks, just a couple up will keep the team very safe. With +240% Recharge Reduction, toggles that go down will likely be ready in a couple of seconds.

But say this is just too big of a problem to get around. What if the gravy train stops at level 40 when status protection is too important? Maybe Respec to be a "regular" Rad defender. Maybe have people take Medicine, Stimulant (if that's magnitude protection rather than time reduction). Maybe take an Empath with Clear Mind and only run with 7 Rads at a time.

Or do what everyone else does when faced with those types of mobs. Don't fight them. Find something easier.

I just want to get to the point where something provides a challenge to a team like this.

I seriously doubt anything could top an 8 * Ill/Rad team, it just takes a bit longer to mature (basically until everyone hits 19th) than a Rad/* defender team, given controller's initial crappy damage. But all the key Radiation powers will be available early (RI at 2, AM at 4, EF at 10), and Illusion provides them with an AE hold at 6 (flash), and group stealth/defense at level 12 (group invis).

So at level 12, 8 * group invis should give everyone +60% defense out of the box (and it's already perma with 8 AM's), which can go as high as +142% after everyone eventually slots it with 6 * defense SO's (and this defense stays up even after you get statused!).

At level 18, everyone gets a permanent Phantom Army with Hasten (which even unslotted is already perma because of the 8 AM's!), and can eventually slot it with all damage. That's 8 * 2-4 pets = 16-32 Phantoms out at all times, who should be 1 shotting minions (and maybe lieutenants) with +228% damage from SO's (at 22nd) and 8 EF's up, and the 8 RI's will cause them to pretty much never miss. Did I mention they're indestructible and draw aggro like crazy? Not that you'll care much about that while yawning invisibly from the sidelines with your capped defense for the 10-15 seconds any fight should take .

After level 32, you can throw Phantasms into the mix, and everything gets completely nuts. Everyone slots their Phantasms for 1*recharge and 5*damage. This gets everyone 4.5 Phantasms each (accounting for perma Hasten), with each Phantasm doing +191% (SO's) +200% (AM) +10% (Assault) = damage cap (why only 1 Assault? read on ), with each one attacking 3.4 times as fast as normal (from the AM's), for a total of 500%*4.5*3.4 = 76.5 times base Phantasm DPS. For reference a standard solo ill/rad would optimally have 2.8 Phantasms up (2 recharge SO's + perma Hasten) doing +187% damage (1*AM 1*Assault 4*SO's) and attacking 1.3 times as fast as normal for 287%*2.8*1.3 = 10.4 times base Phantasm DPS. So now every one of our 8 ill/rad controllers has the theoretical damage output of 7.4 normal ill/rads, but we'll be a little conservative and call it only 6 to account for the on average 35s (about 15% of it's life) each Phantasm will go without AM's.

Everyone should now also have Flight (Hover with a couple SO's might be even better, considering the AM's will probably get it to the movement cap anyway) as a movement power, so you can get your Phantasms off the ground to increase their speed. With 8*AM both you and your Phantasms should be at the movement speed cap, although any new Phantasms you create will be miserably slow and do crap damage by comparison until they get hit with a round of AM's. Flight also allows you to hover above combats with your Phantasms, which keeps them from scattering any villains lucky enough to survive the alpha to all kingdom come with their knockback.

So what do you do? After the round of buffs every 2 minutes, you all split up and destroy Hazard zone groups solo. Each of you has 4-5 damage capped AE blasters following you around, so you invisibly fly them up to a group. Now drop an EF (maybe lead with PA if it's ready) and watch all the minions/lt's drop to the first volley of energy torrents, with the bosses following a few seconds later to all the concentrated single target nukes. Each controller should have a Phantom Army available every 38 seconds (perma Hasten + 8 AM's + 6 * rechargers, you'll yank the damages for recharge after you get Phants) for emergency or opener use. After soloing anywhere from say 3-10 Trial zone groups apiece in 1.5 minutes, you all regroup for the next round of AM/invis. Every hour or two you can take a break to visit the trainer, although you don't really need any more powers or slots after level 34.

So, try to beat THAT . Phantom Army, Phantasm, Flight, Hasten, Group Invis, RI, EF, AM, Assault.. Hmm, that's 9 powers with only 3 of them requiring any slotting, a couple that could probably eventually be dispensed with (RI and Assault), and all but one of them available by level 18. That gives you plenty of leeway to make any kind of Ill/Rad build you want (you can still take 2 power pools and have many powers picks and slots available, after all), including ones that can solo or operate just fine in non ill/rad groups. Really, most ill/rad's would already have all this stuff (excepting maybe Flight and the nonessential Assault), so it shouldn't really be that hard to get any 8 similarly leveled ill/rad's together, switch a few enhancements around, and go to town.

[EDIT] Fixed a couple numbers I goofed [/EDIT]

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I seriously doubt anything could top an 8 * ill/rad team, it just takes a bit longer to mature (basically until every hits 19th)

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Oh, that's REAL easy.

AM affects everyone in range. Think about 16 Ill/Rad Controllers doing the same thing in 2 teams of 8. They all converge to the same spot for AM every 2 minutes. They can summon more PAs, more Phantasms, and the Phantasms hit the damage cap without any Damage Enhancements. But you still 6 slot them for damage for the ones you summon after AM.

In this case you don't need Hasten; you'll probably be at the Recharge Reduction cap.

Anyone know the Recharge Reduction cap? If I had to guess, I'd say +300%. But you never know.

As an alternative, how about Fire/Rad controllers doing the same thing? You'd call them Zookeepers, because they'd have about 200 Fire Imps. But that many would probably get in each other's way, so ranged attacks from the Illusion pets would be better.

I was trying to consider which controllers would best fit into a Rad defender team. Illusion was one of my choices. But I have never actually played a controller, much less to high level, so I couldn't make a real informed decision.

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I seriously doubt anything could top an 8 * ill/rad team, it just takes a bit longer to mature (basically until every hits 19th)

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Oh, that's REAL easy.

AM affects everyone in range. Think about 16 Ill/Rad Controllers doing the same thing in 2 teams of 8.

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Hey, not fair! You know I meant topping it with another team of 8, not just throwing in another 8 Ill/rads.

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In this case you don't need Hasten; you'll probably be at the Recharge Reduction cap.

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Even if recharge is capped with 16 AM's already, Hasten will probably still be worth taking (although superfluous when in your super team, true), just for those times when you aren't in your super team.

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Anyone know the Recharge Reduction cap? If I had to guess, I'd say +300%. But you never know.

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Is there a recharge cap? Drat, that would screw up all my numbers .

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As an alternative, how about Fire/Rad controllers doing the same thing?

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No AE hold at level 6 (not till 18). No pets at 18 (not till 32). No group invis ever. I think Illusion wins.

[EDIT]Took me a bit to figure out you were topping my team by adding another team to it![/EDIT]

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Who has done this before?

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I've been trying to find some of the old rad/rad supergroup threads, but I think they all went the way of deletion.

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How did it work out?

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In a word, unreal. Of course, the devs later found a serious bug in some defense debuff powers that they later fixed. (It worked much like the bug for Smoke Grenade: 110% instead of 10%). So in other words, there wasn't much that could stop these teams.

I haven't seen any dedicated rad/rad teams in recent months.

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What Defender Secondaries have the fastest animation times?

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Looks like you already have it... nothing gets faster than radiation blast. (Elec might make a close second).

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Would you make up a level 1 char to try this out?

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Lucky for me I have some free time for once. I'll head over to Freedom tonight.

AM does not provide mag, it only reduces mezz duration. No amount of AM stacking adds mag. I've had between 10-12 AM's on my toon at one time, and have still gotten mezzed by a rather standard mag mezz effect (yes, it was 10 AM's, and I'm not exaggerating) that CM, ID, or any scrapper mezz protection survived.

There isn't a recharge reduction cap afaik, and if there is, its nowhere near as low as 300%. However, recharge reduction works on a reciprocal function.

Enhanced Recharge Time = Base Recharge/(1 + Sum of all Recharge enhancements) As you increase your recharge buffing it keeps doing less and less for your recharges:

180 second base power with:
6 SO's recharge = 60 seconds
8 SO's recharge = 49 seconds
10 SO's recharge = 41 seconds
12 SO's recharge = 36 seconds

---
Cosmic Inferno - lvl 46 Fire/Rad
Devouring Shadow - lvl 12 Rad/Dark - Member of Fallout Shelter

Yeah, mez terminology is confusion with 'protection' meaning the effect is blocked, and 'resistance' meaning you snap out of it sooner. Especially when damage resistance means that damage is blocked IMO this makes Leaping a good pool for the superteam; AoE Sleep attacks would be about your only problem... for the Ill/Kin's the threat would be much lower though, as the stacked AM's would break your pets free of holds very soon so that they draw aggro again (Phants don't run toggles, so they don't care, lol).


To the OP, I have to admit that Ill/Rad would probably be superior... you get AM in no time anyway I have a level 46 Ill/Rad friend I've duo'd with a lot (ever since he was 35-ish and I was ~16), and they're unreal soloers -- which is what many with that build do, since they really needed groups to advance faster early on. But with a directed team of Ill/Rads, it'd be too fun to pass up And when you're team wasn't on, you could still do some damage.

Another plus for the Ill/Rad: at 41 you get your epic pool, and since you don't really need anything else at this point, you take Indomitable Will for status protection. Now, on the off chance something gets lucky enough to slip a status past your capped defense, the one effect will not burn through your status protection. With all the AMs up, it will have a miniscule duration, too.

Since we're in the realm of theory, how about 8 Kinetic/Psis? I'm not going to do the math on this, but hear me out.

First, you've got 8x Transfusion. Transfusion drains 20 endurance per shot, meaning that in the simple act of healing, your team could drain a boss's endurance to zero in one second. You don't need slots to accomplish this. With stacked Speed Boosts, even Archvillans would turn to mush before too long.

Siphon Power, here's your first stackable buff. +200% damage for all involved when all 8 Defenders cast it, and it stacks with itself once your recharge rate gets reduced. With Siphon Power, all 8 Defenders would stay at the damage cap for the entirety of every fight. Not to mention, affected mobs do almost no damage, ever, under any circumstances. Once we get chain-Speed Boost running, even AVs will hit the damage floor.

Increase Density acts as your status protection. Every few minutes, each Defender casts one Increase Density on the guy above him on the list, and everyone is protected.

Speed Boost... muahaha. This is your AM counterpart, the recharge reductor and the endurance recharger. The power of this skill would actually be limited by its cast animation... in theory, each Defender could buff all 7 of his teammates, creating a frenzy of hyperspeed warriors. You're at the movement cap, probably the recharge cap, and I imagine everyone has basically limitless endurance. It's annoying to have to buff 7 people every few minutes though, which is Accelerate Metabolism's biggest advantage over Speed Boost.

Fulcrum Shift, basically a Siphon Power that debuffs everything. 8 Fulcrum Shifts, and everything within 100 yards is fighting like a one-armed gimp.

Why Psi as a secondary? The early attacks are slow, but 8x Siphon Power means that you only really need one shot to take down anything you're fighting at low levels. Don't need to slot anything, etc. Psi gets its snipe shot early, useful for bosses. The biggest advantage is the reduction in the enemy's attack rate... so in addition to the damage debuff from Siphon/Fulcrum, enemies you hit will be attacking considerably slower.

The only thing Kinetics really lacks is a Defense debuff, which is a shame. I think Rad/* might come out better in the end, but nothing would reduce a crowd of mobs to a gibbering pile of mush faster than 8 Kinetics all dropping Fulcrum Shifts all at once.

Hi TopDoc,

I teamed last night with Dr. Schwartz, Lanthanide and Violet Radiant (sp). Dinged 6, almost at 7.

Here is my feedback.

We had four AMs up, roughly 75% of the time. Not critical mass, sadly.

One note: Slotting of AM is definitely key - one thing I noticed - the two higher levels in our group were almost always low on endurance from running EF almost constantly. I would suggest moderate slotting of AM for end recovery - at lvl 12ish, 6+ 3-slotted AMs with DOs should theoretically make for a nearly bottomless supply of end, right? Not sure myself.

Also, some of the Leadership powers may be over kill - Maneuvers and Tactics might me un-necessary - I was rarely hit and I rarely missed with 3+ stacked Radiation infections. 8 stacked maneuvers should still be helpful.

Recharge time was awesome with even 4 AMs - Neutrino Bolt was almost always up. I might slot a couple of recharges into Irradiate just to have it always up (if that's possible).

Anyway, it was fun, and I'll be back for sure.

Im REALLY interested in this. What times do you guys play???

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StabbinPayne : Is there a recharge cap? Drat, that would screw up all my numbers

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There are probably caps on everything, just to prevent the sort of thing we're doing here.

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Arcas: I haven't seen any dedicated rad/rad teams in recent months.

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Maybe I'll start a revival.

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Arcas : Lucky for me I have some free time for once. I'll head over to Freedom tonight.

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Seems like a lot of people did. I got a half dozen new people asking to get into the SG who learned about it from reading these boards. Most were already Rad characters on Freedom.

Also, I shamelessly bribed people 100k Influence to play a Rad/Rad for an hour. It took a while to find enough people, get everyone to make new characters, get organized, get to level 2, and hit the Sewers. We only actually played for a half hour, but everyone made it to level 4. Only 2 deaths, me early on and one other veteran who drew too much agro.

I had half the chars take Radiation Infection and half Radiant Aura, just to make sure we had a nice mix. At level 2 with only a single attack, we could mow through 2 mob groups before AM started dropping. Level 2 everyone took AM, and I recommended a second attack at level 4. But then we broke up so I could pay people and we didn't start up again.

I'll be recruiting again tonight, starting at 8:30 PM EST. Look for Miss Ion if you're interested. With better organization, we should have more time for playing. And with 2 attacks starting at level 4, I expect things will go faster.

This team can't really hunt in city zones; there just aren't enough mobs. Once we have enough people in the SG to make a group of 8 of level 5+ every night, we can hit the Hollows and level pretty fast. Once we get enough people over 10 who are somewhat close in level, they can SK lowbies and do missions. After all, any Rad level 6+ can make a significant contribution. They'll have AM, 2 attacks, and some combination of RA, RI, EF, and an AoE. One of the higher level chars can take Recall Friend and use that as needed. After all, Teleport is the fastest movement power if you have a massive END recovery, and you can 6 slot it for range.

So all we really need is a core of 4 people who are all about the same level.

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Bobartig : There isn't a recharge reduction cap afaik, and if there is, its nowhere near as low as 300%. However, recharge reduction works on a reciprocal function.

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I meant +300% Recharge Reduction, for a recharge time of X/(1+3). Diminishing returns limits the effectiveness, but doesn't really cap this. But I believe the Devs put caps on everything, just in case.

I know about the reciprocal function, that's how I figured out the AM bonus and base recharge time. Rest recharges in 600 seconds, or 564 seconds if a single AM is used (which lasts 120 seconds). The 36 second difference for 120 seconds means AM provides +30% Recharge Reduction. AM normally recharges in 384 seconds (IIRC), which would be 420 seconds (7 minutes) unenhanced by itself. With 8 AMs for +240%, AM should recharge in 420/(1+2.4) or 123.5 seconds.

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The_Deliveryman : To the OP, I have to admit that Ill/Rad would probably be superior

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Yep, I'm beginning to see that. I just don't have a basis for comparison. A big group of them would be like Zookeeper Fire Controllers with their 200 Fire Imps. Maybe I'll recommend 1 char tonight makes an Ill/Rad Controller. Spam Spectral Wounds and the mob may fall before any of it heals. But Earth is quite good at low levels. The combined Stone Cages and Quicksand keeps all of the mobs tightly packed.

BTW, we have an Earth/Rad Controller who started Friday or Saturday when I made the SG, and he's already level 15. Granted he plays a lot. I don't think the early levels will go slowly. Maybe 4 Rad/Rad Defenders for firepower and 4 Ill/Rad Controllers for CC, then the Rad/Rads can switch if they want later. Who knows.

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quuuux : Another plus for the Ill/Rad: at 41 you get your epic pool, and since you don't really need anything else at this point, you take Indomitable Will for status protection. Now, on the off chance something gets lucky enough to slip a status past your capped defense, the one effect will not burn through your status protection. With all the AMs up, it will have a miniscule duration, too.

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With lots of pets taking agro, you're unlikely to get attacked. If you are attacked, you're unlikely to get mezzed. If you do get mezzed, it'll be for a short time. With lots of pets, you won't be attacked by many mobs during that time. Sounds about as safe as possible.

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ColdSnapps : Since we're in the realm of theory, how about 8 Kinetic/Psis?

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I considered that, but I don't have numbers on Kinetics. I was originally thinking that Fulcrum Shift would be needed to really debuff mob damage and reach the damage cap, but Rads don't really need it. They get RI and level 1, AM at 2 and EF at 6. The combination of RI and EF means the mobs do very little damage. There's absolutely no reason to take a Kinetic for Fulcrum Shift, since you don't even get it till 32.

Siphon Power at 1 is a nice damage buff/mob debuff, but Speed Boost isn't available till 12. Assuming they are the same buff as AM at 2 and EF at 6, I think the Rad powers are more effective, easier to use, and lower level. Lower level is important.

The key thing is getting enough people together to make a team of 8. You need to find some dedicated people to do that with Kin/Rad before 12. But with Rad/Rad, you get Uber at level 2. It's REAL hard to beat that.

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ColdSnapps : Why Psi as a secondary?

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I wondered that too. I eventually decided it was a perfectly good secondary, just not as good as Rad. Psi has one of the best early AoEs with front loaded damage and a nice secondary effect, and another AoE at high levels before the big nuke. But Rad has 2 low level AoEs, plus another before the big nuke. The secondary effect of Rad is mostly useless with RI, but the secondary effect of Psi is similarly useless if the mobs are really debuffed and drop real fast. In the final analysis, the AoEs are enough of a difference to make Rad the secondary of choice. You don't snipe bosses to open combat, you debuff with RI and EF. Then 2 AoEs from everyone and the bosses may not be left standing. Do 1 AoE with Psi and that may not be the case.

That said, there's nothing wrong with having a few Rad/Psi defenders in the group. Diversity is good. I talked with a Rad/Elec who groups with 2 friends that are the same, and they can rock with END drain. You can fully slot your attacks for End Drain and watch bosses stand around gasping for End.

I don't think there's one perfect team. People play what they like. I play what I like, and I like crunching numbers and looking for efficient, creative, interesting builds. I have to make do with the number I have available, which are no where near complete. And more importantly, for this build I have to convince other people to play Rad to get the most out of it. So I do my best.

It really doesn't matter what you mix; you're going to be rolling over mobs with any combination involving the Radiation Primary. But the number cruncher in me can't resist finding the perfect combination that gives the best, safest, fastest, most efficient, and most exciting gameplay experience.

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Rad_Avenger : One note: Slotting of AM is definitely key

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I keep going back on forth on this. With 8 people, there's no need to slot AM. But until we get enough people playing regularly, it's probably a good idea. I'd recommend slotting it for Recharge though, so it's up more often. Once there are enough people to get teams of 8 regularly, change some slots to END Recovery. One or two slots of End Reduction in EF might be enough to make a difference. Also, you don't need to run many EFs. No one else needs extra END, so pass all Catch a Breath Inspirations to those doing EF.

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Rad_Avenger : Also, some of the Leadership powers may be over kill

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Early on yes, the mobs don't hit often or hard, and they don't have many status effects. Later, being hit hurts more. So there may always be a place for Maneuvers. But it also depends on how well the team plays. If mobs are always debuffed with a couple RIs and EFs, then you don't need Maneuvers or Tactics. If you have a Controller with well-behaved pets to take agro, then you may not need Maneuvers. But if you have pets or players that agro mobs before they are debuffed, you need some sort of defense.

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Rad_Avenger : Recharge time was awesome with even 4 AMs - Neutrino Bolt was almost always up. I might slot a couple of recharges into Irradiate just to have it always up (if that's possible).

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With 8 AMs, you can almost use Neutrino and X-Ray as fast as they animate. According to Hero Planner, Irradiate has a 20 second recharge. Recharge Reduction has diminishing returns, so the more you put in the less it does. Assuming there is no Recharge Reduction cap, 8 AMs and 6 Recharge Reduction SOs will give you 3.7 second for recharge. Electron Haze (the level 10 AoE) has a base 16 second recharge, or 3 seconds after AMs and SOs. You could alternate these two AoEs with a little waiting between each. At level 35 you get a third AoE. At this point, you should be able to cycle through them as fast as they animate.

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JovianF : Im REALLY interested in this. What times do you guys play???

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I'm usually on starting at 8:00 PM EST. I'll be organizing another recruiting run tonight (Dec 7) and maybe tomorrow, starting at 8:30 with Miss Ion, so make sure you're on before then and give me a tell. I play Uranium 238 during the run, I reroll him at level 1.

Wow. Irradiate every 3.7 secs? No need to even take Electron Haze at that rate (I remember its activation time to be abysmal but its been a while). Can't wait to team with a larger than 4 group

In my recruiting drive last night, we ended up with 7 of us at level 4. (I had to kick one person who kept attacking high level groups when AM was down.) I had offered 100K Influence for playing, but no one wanted it. Most wanted to just keep playing after that. 2 of us picked up Irradiate at level 4. With 5 or 6 stacked AMs, the 2 Irradiates were enough to defeat the minions in a group. At level 6, add some more Irradiates and EFs, and I expect the Lts would go down as well.

I think that means fewer X-Ray Beams. Irradiate does the same damage but it's AoE. Granted the recharge is considerably longer, and the END cost is higher, the total damage is considerably larger as well. But with stacked AM, it recharges really fast and probably doesn't cost too much END. You only use it once or maybe twice per battle.

My recommended build up to level 10 is (1) Radiation Infection or Radiant Aura, Neutrino Bolt, (2) Accelerate Metabolism, (4) Irradiate, (6) Radiant Aura or Enervating Field, (8) open, (10) Electron Haze. Slot AM fully, then slot Radiant Aura or attacks. You can add more that 2 slots per attacks, and it may actually be a good idea, but you'll likely respec out of them unless they are for secondary effects. Damage SOs in 3 slots is about +100%, so you're at the damage cap with 8 AMs. That may be a better option than Assault, and you probably get enough slots to do that. Irradiate and Electron Haze 6 slotted with DO Damage up to level 22 may make levelling easier. At 22 switch to 3 Damage SOs and 3 Recharge SOs, then respec at 24 to just 3 Damage SO.

Note that everyone should have Radiant Aura and 1 toggle debuff. Everyone opens with a debuff, hit 2 AoEs, heal while finishing bosses, next group.

The above build leaves one slot at level 8 for something else. The team should have 1 or 2 people each with Recall Friend and Grant Invis. Everyone else can take a different Movement power prerequisite or X-Ray Beam. Hasten might be nice for the extra recharge reduction, but Super Speed may not be necessary as you're already moving nearly that fast with the stacked AMs. Combat Jumping would be reasonable, plus the status protection with it and Acrobatics might be necessary at higher levels. Hover (and later Flight) seem too slow to be worth taking. Still, some Rad controllers may take it to get Group Fly for pet movement.

Once we can get 8 people all together and all around the same level (via SK or Exem), things are really going to pick up.

I think I'm done recruiting at level 1. Tonight we start levelling.

I'm in Project Radiation on Virtue with my primary. We are all Radiation primary defenders. In my experience, when more than 5 of us get together, we can take all purples all the time. With the stakced Rad Infections, we can stand our ground all day long with no worries... except some of the nastier toggle knockers that seem to hit no matter what.

Additionally, after level 28, those of us with rad secondary get blaster caliber firepower with cosmic burst. Some other secondaries also pack quite a punch, and with EF going, your basic blast power alone becomes an almost continuous stream of damage.

Another nice side effect of Rad teams, is that you don't really need to be the same level. Sidekicking works great because as long as you get rad infection and AM early (hahaha, I'm so funny), you can contribute easily. Just don't be the first to draw potential aggro if you are weak. Usually, when done right, the first round of aggro will only be sligtly effective because the first thing to drop on a group is infection. And everyone that's not initiating can just hit radiant aura when the first volley comes in.

One last observation is that level 12 and 22 are really power boosters for Rad teams. Those DO and then SO recharge reductions on AM reduce the critical mass to have multiple permanent AMs. Anyone that takes hasten can also set aside some AM slots for end recovery, although it's almost unneccessary. They only thing that drains your end with 5 AMs is a kamikaze power or a sapper (evil and accurate things that they are).

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I seriously doubt anything could top an 8 * Ill/Rad team. . . .

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Why do people challenge me this way?

You have 8 Rad/* Defenders who have taken the obvious powers. AM is a 0.3 factor to recharge and a 25% boost to damage. With 8 people each running it you're looking at a 2.4 factor to recharge and a 200% boost to damage. Combined with the base 100% you only have another 100% to cover, so let's consider level 38 Blast powers shall we?

You slot them with 3 Damage SOs and 3 Recharge SO's. Due to AM's effects they are all hitting the cap at 400%. with 3 Recharge SOs plus perma-Hasten plus 8 AMs you're looking at a total factor of 3*(1/3) + 8 * 0.3 + 0.7 = 4.1, so you're dividing the recycle time of the level 38 Blasts by 5.1.

Those powers recycle in 360s base. After all of this the recycle in 70.58s. Let's call that 71s.

Now, each Rad/* Defender has Enervating Field. As tested, the result of stacking is that each adds 42% damage that does not respect damage caps because it is making the mob take more damage, not causing the person dealing damage to deal more damage. 42% * 8 = 336%.

So every 71s one of the Defenders can set off a level 38 blast power that will deal 736% of base damage.

My Thunderous Blast, unslotted, versus even con targets, deals 33.08+66.16+33.08 damage, or 132.32 damage. Let's assume they all deal roughly the same. At 736% that works out to be 973.88 damage to even cons.

973.88 damage to even cons translates to:

876.49 to +1s
779.10 to +2s
633.02 to +3s

You'll likely be clearing the field of these, but in case you aren't consider that we are dealing with 8 Defenders, each of which possess AE attacks. Consider Ball Lightning, which unmodified deals 54.25 damage. With this group it would be tossed for 399.28 extra damage to even cons. When whoever is up to use their level 38 power the other 7 Defenders might as well do something, like each tossing an AE. This gives total damage output of 399.28*7 + 973.88 = 3768.84 damage.

3768.84 damage to even cons works out to:

3391.96 to +1s
3015.07 to +2s
2449.75 to +3s

Pretty nifty, no?

And what to do in the roughly 70s between level 38 power usage? Well, those AEs that have been being tossed about normally cycles in 20s or so. Divide by 5.1 and this becomes 3.92s. So roughly every 4s the group can toss out 399.28*8 = 3194.24 damage. . .only about 700 less than when one is using a level 38 power. Let me repeat for emphasis: EVERY 4 SECONDS!

I think that trumps the Illu/Rads.