I've tried to start a similar concept with kinetics. With speed boost, siphon power, and other such buffs and debuffs, I thought a team of kineticists would be unstoppable. But we never got off the ground. Im lvl 20, and everyone else in my SG was to low of level and I just got bored with it and started another toon. My SG name is Legion of Kineticists, my guys name is Green Marvel, on the Victory Server.
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Why do people challenge me this way?
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Did you read my post? The Rad/* defenders don't get anything crucial out of Rad that the Ill/Rad controllers don't also get by level 10 (when they finally get EF). The controllers however will get stealth and the ability to cap their defense via a single click power (Group Invis) at level 12, which the defenders simply cannot duplicate except via pool toggles which can be knocked down, or grant invis which is a single target nuisance every .. (what's the duration on this? 2 minutes?).
I will grant you that it takes the Ill/Rad controllers longer to mature. They don't get much in the way of damage until level 19 or so with some slots in Phantom Army, and they won't truly blossom until level 33 with some slots in Phantasm. But once they get there, I don't think it's much of a contest any longer.
At that point, I'll stack the ~36 damage/defense capped AE blasting Phantasms (don't forget they also are getting hit with AM/invis's) + ~24 indestructible Phantoms against your 8 damage capped AE blasting defenders any day. Phantasms and Phantoms may be dumb, but they still outnumber the defenders over 7:1 
. I guess there were 8 controllers there too, but they don't really do anything but buff and summon more pets, maybe hold or nuke some stuff when they get bored. But the controllers won't really have to engage in melee themselves post level 18, which would make getting to level 50 without ever suffering another defeat well within the realm of possibility for them.
Yes, I read your post. The pets and the Illusionists are getting the same benefits but I don't believe the pets have the same speed of damage delivery. The key words in what you wrote being, "they're starting to take out groups as fast as they can drag their horde of Phantoms to them". Phantasms don't pass through each other that I've ever noticed. . .they can block both each other and their master's movements. (Had a friend get trapped on a CoT mission due to his own Fire Imps. . .talk about funny.)
As to danger, I'm pretty sure the Defenders aren't in much danger either. 8 AMs means status effects probably pass in the blink of an eye. 8 EFs makes incoming damage laughable, and 8 Radiant Auras. . .well, any hit had best be a one-shot kill, which is unlikely under 8 AFs, assuming there all that many hits under 8 RIs.
Phantasms use Energy Torrent. They'd better be one-shot killing as otherwise what you're going to rapidly end up with is mobs spread all over the place due to knockback. Given the Controllers have absolutely no control over the Phantasms and how they decide to attack, their attacks aren't coordinated for best effect, the Defender's attacks are. ("Everyone, target the guy on the center and start blasting when you see me start.")
Suffice to say, I'm not convinced of the Phantasm superiority.
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Yes, I read your post.
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It doesn't sound like you did. I already dealt with most everything you mentioned, but I'll repeat it for emphasis .
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The pets and the Illusionists are getting the same benefits but I don't believe the pets have the same speed of damage delivery.
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Sure they do. EVERY one of them has the damage output of about 6-7 normal Ill/Rad's (you can check the math above if you like), which I can assure you solo very effectively in Hazard zones already (with their measly 2-3 pets at a paltry +230% damage attacking at a feeble 130% normal rate). I team with an Ill/Rad regularly, and I know how effective they are once they get Phantasms.
But for comparison, each Phantasm will have an Energy torrent up every 8s/340% = 2.35s, just the same as any energy defenders in your group (actually I think the Phants get it a slight bit faster, if Hero Planner is correct about the 12s recharge time on Torrent for defenders vs. the 8s for blasters/Phants). Except there's about 4-5 times more of them. Admittedly, I AM talking about the level 33+ game here, not the level 18-32 game where the defenders should have a pretty clear edge (Phantom Army is unbuffable via any means except SO's, although they will benefit from any debuffs).
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The key words in what you wrote being, "they're starting to take out groups as fast as they can drag their horde of Phantoms to them".
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Yeah, that's from 18-32, before they get Phantasms.
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As to danger, I'm pretty sure the Defenders aren't in much danger either. 8 AMs means status effects probably pass in the blink of an eye. 8 EFs makes incoming damage laughable, and 8 Radiant Auras. . .well, any hit had best be a one-shot kill, which is unlikely under 8 AFs, assuming there all that many hits under 8 RIs.
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Agreed, neither team is in much danger. I was just pointing out that the controllers are even more unkillable. But your defenders should be splitting up into smaller teams (probably 2 teams of 4, but 4 teams of 2 might be workable) anyway, which lessens their defenses somewhat. But there IS a cap on how much a mob can be debuffed, so at some point you get no extra benfit from any more EF's/RI's (IIRC -100% is the resistance debuff cap, so only 3 EF's should stack for any actual effect there. I don't know what the -dam cap is, maybe 10-25%?).
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Phantasms don't pass through each other that I've ever noticed. . .they can block both each other and their master's movements. (Had a friend get trapped on a CoT mission due to his own Fire Imps. . .talk about funny.)
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Phantasms FLY, and so will you, remember? And you won't be in missions anyway, each controller will be going solo after Hazard zone groups at the Flight movement cap. New Phantasms will suffer for awhile, true, but it shouldn't take long for them to catch up with groups available every 50-300 feet throughout a Hazard zone.
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Phantasms use Energy Torrent. They'd better be one-shot killing as otherwise what you're going to rapidly end up with is mobs spread all over the place due to knockback.
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See above. With flight your Phants will be doing knockDOWN during your vertical assaults. And yes, they will be one shot killing pretty much all the minions anyway, with any remaining lt's/bosses going down 4-8 seconds later as the fire gets more concentrated.
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Given the Controllers have absolutely no control over the Phantasms and how they decide to attack, their attacks aren't coordinated for best effect, the Defender's attacks are. ("Everyone, target the guy on the center and start blasting when you see me start.")
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Phantasms are retarded, yes, but you CAN control them to some degree. Coordination also simply doesn't matter as much when everything can be defeated inside 10 seconds anyway.
I'm not saying the team of 8 Rad defenders is not sick. They really really are. I should know, I have one myself. But being able to share the benefits of 8*AM over ~36 pets makes every Ill/Rad a mini army unto himself.
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Yes, I read your post.
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It doesn't sound like you did. I already dealt with most everything you mentioned, but I'll repeat it for emphasis .
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If "Yes, I did" doesn't make the matter clear, then I suggest you may suffer from perceptual difficulties.
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The pets and the Illusionists are getting the same benefits but I don't believe the pets have the same speed of damage delivery.
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Sure they do. EVERY one of them has the damage output of about 6-7 normal Ill/Rad's (you can check the math above if you like), which I can assure you solo very effectively in Hazard zones already (with their measly 2-3 pets at a paltry +230% damage attacking at a feeble 130% normal rate). I team with an Ill/Rad regularly, and I know how effective they are once they get Phantasms.
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You miss the point totally, which was one of logistics and moving your circus about.
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But for comparison, each Phantasm will have an Energy torrent up every 8s/340% = 2.35s, just the same as any energy defenders in your group (actually I think the Phants get it a slight bit faster, if Hero Planner is correct about the 12s recharge time on Torrent for defenders vs. the 8s for blasters/Phants). Except there's about 4-5 times more of them. Admittedly, I AM talking about the level 33+ game here, not the level 18-32 game where the defenders should have a pretty clear edge (Phantom Army is unbuffable via any means except SO's, although they will benefit from any debuffs).
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First it was Defenders have the edge to 18, now to 32. Only have to squeeze out that last 18 levels I guess. 
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The key words in what you wrote being, "they're starting to take out groups as fast as they can drag their horde of Phantoms to them".
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Yeah, that's from 18-32, before they get Phantasms.
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That the post 32 practicality of moving the horde, keeping it from getting distracted by passing too close to something that you didn't want to attack (which of course won't survive but may very well not be worth the effort).
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As to danger, I'm pretty sure the Defenders aren't in much danger either. 8 AMs means status effects probably pass in the blink of an eye. 8 EFs makes incoming damage laughable, and 8 Radiant Auras. . .well, any hit had best be a one-shot kill, which is unlikely under 8 AFs, assuming there all that many hits under 8 RIs.
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Agreed, neither team is in much danger. I was just pointing out that the controllers are even more unkillable. But your defenders should be splitting up into smaller teams (probably 2 teams of 4, but 4 teams of 2 might be workable) anyway, which lessens their defenses somewhat. But there IS a cap on how much a mob can be debuffed, so at some point you get no extra benfit from any more EF's/RI's (IIRC -100% is the resistance debuff cap, so only 3 EF's should stack for any actual effect there. I don't know what the -dam cap is, maybe 10-25%?).
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(1) Solo I can stand up to groups of oranges or a red or two. Give me a partner and things are considerably safer. Give me two and its going to take stupdity on our part to die.
(2) There is a limit to how much RI brings--a 95% chance for the Defenders to hit and a 5% chance for the mobs to hit. EF however does not, despite the mathematical obviousness of it all, work by additively subtracting from resistance. Each one stacked after the first adds the amount of damage it would do were it the only one there. There is no mathematical limit (in the sense you were reaching by considering -100% resistance) this way as you can continue to add +42%. In theory 2 teams of 8 each using EF would bring 16x the benefit, 3 teams 24x, and so on.
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Phantasms don't pass through each other that I've ever noticed. . .they can block both each other and their master's movements. (Had a friend get trapped on a CoT mission due to his own Fire Imps. . .talk about funny.)
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Phantasms FLY, and so will you, remember? And you won't be in missions anyway, each controller will be going solo after Hazard zone groups at the Flight movement cap. New Phantasms will suffer for awhile, true, but it shouldn't take long for them to catch up with groups available every 50-300 feet throughout a Hazard zone.
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Wasn't suggesting that you'd be in missions. The point was that they block each other. Admittedly flying helps over the case of groundpounding imps, but it is still a consideration once you get the numbers up high enough.
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Phantasms use Energy Torrent. They'd better be one-shot killing as otherwise what you're going to rapidly end up with is mobs spread all over the place due to knockback.
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See above. With flight your Phants will be doing knockDOWN during your vertical assaults. And yes, they will be one shot killing pretty much all the minions anyway, with any remaining lt's/bosses going down 4-8 seconds later as the fire gets more concentrated.[/qutoe]
Some will be doing knockdown. The ones close to the ground will be doing knockback.
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Given the Controllers have absolutely no control over the Phantasms and how they decide to attack, their attacks aren't coordinated for best effect, the Defender's attacks are. ("Everyone, target the guy on the center and start blasting when you see me start.")
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Phantasms are retarded, yes, but you CAN control them to some degree. Coordination also simply doesn't matter as much when everything can be defeated inside 10 seconds anyway.
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I do not think you can confuse lack need for coordination with there being no benefit to coordination. Heck, have 7 of the Defenders target the 8th to be on auto-assist and all the 7 have to do is give the proper responses at the right time. Targetting is automatic and only what the leader decides to attack is being attacked. If we consider skipping RI and EF and just concentrating on speed of killing, Ball Lightning is available in just over 3s. Each of the Defenders can have Tactics, which at full slotting is giving the entire group the benefit of +300% Accuracy, so missing isn't an issue. Skipping RI and EF usage, have the 7 assisting Defenders put themselves on auto-follow with Ball Lightning on auto-click while targetting their leader.
In my haste of posting yesterday I quoted the damage figure for Lightning Bolt, not Ball Lightning. Ball Lightning is an initial hit of 9.92 followed by 4 ticks of 5.95 when unslotted. The above routine gives 317.44 damage with 4 ticks of 190.4 damage. That is a total yield (without EF) of 1079.04--sufficient to kill most things through +3 level.
So the routine for the Rad Defenders could be simply to zoom by a spawn, pause long enough to toss 8 Ball Lightnings, and continue on to the next content that by the time they reach the next spawn the last one is dead.
This should underscore the benefits of coordination. The Defenders spend no more time at a spawn than it takes to toss whatever the agreed upon damage tool is. (While an AE that does all of its damage at once would be preferable, radial to the target application and minimum activation time trump non-DoT status).
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I'm not saying the team of 8 Rad defenders is not sick. They really really are. I should know, I have one myself. But being able to share the benefits of 8*AM over ~36 pets makes every Ill/Rad a mini army unto himself.
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Zoom by, one second to lob Ball Lightnings, zoom off. Ball Lightning recharged in the time it takes to travel to the next set of targets. Can you move your army of Phantasm that quickly, getting them to all attack and be ready to move in only a second?
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If "Yes, I did" doesn't make the matter clear, then I suggest you may suffer from perceptual difficulties.
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Eh, whatever. You clearly ignored/overlooked several of my points or their more obvious implications (i.e. the movement capped flying, the damage output of the controllers compared to base Phantasm damage, the fact that they are operating solo after each round of buffs), and are still ignoring some obvious advantages/implications of having the 8 Ill/Rad's SOLO Hazard groups after each round of buffs. 8 teams of 4-5 AE'ers should hunt substantially faster than 1 team of 8 AE'ers (or 2 teams of 4 defenders more optimally, I think) when the main source of downtime is travel between groups that are only 50-300 feet apart.
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You miss the point totally, which was one of logistics and moving your circus about.
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Eh, what's so hard about moving around 4-5 flying pets at the movement cap 50-300 feet at a time? Each Ill/Rad hunts S-O-L-O with his Phantasms, there is no "circus" when moving. The round of buffs every 100-120s will be a bit of a circus, but mostly one of pets jostling each other around and horrid framerates .
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First it was Defenders have the edge to 18, now to 32. Only have to squeeze out that last 18 levels I guess.
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I mostly meant that the controllers don't completely suck compared to the defenders once they hit 19 (which may only be a matter of 5 vs. 10-15 hours, anyway) when I said they don't really "mature" until then. That definitely wasn't how it came across in my initial post, however, I agree. The Phantom Armies will still defeat stuff plenty fast though, and the logistics can be improved by splitting up into teams of 2-4 between buff rounds (some toying around should determine how many Phantoms are practical to work with).
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EF however does not, despite the mathematical obviousness of it all, work by additively subtracting from resistance. Each one stacked after the first adds the amount of damage it would do were it the only one there. There is no mathematical limit (in the sense you were reaching by considering -100% resistance) this way as you can continue to add +42%. In theory 2 teams of 8 each using EF would bring 16x the benefit, 3 teams 24x, and so on.
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I don't think that's correct, but it would obviously take a field test to prove it either way. I have read elsewhere on these forums that there is a programmed hard cap to just how much a villain's resistance can be debuffed (just like there is a hard cap of +400% to your damage bonus).
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So the routine for the Rad Defenders could be simply to zoom by a spawn, pause long enough to toss 8 Ball Lightnings, and continue on to the next content that by the time they reach the next spawn the last one is dead.
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I think you are grossly underestimating the advantage EIGHT teams hunting very quickly has over ONE team hunting super duper quickly (I think your defenders should be operating in 2 groups of 4 between buff rounds, which would help a bit). Energy torrent does very similar damage to BL (2.6667 BI vs. 2.8333 BI), but the affected area for neither BL nor energy torrent will typically hit everyone except in well clustered groups (I have used BL myself often enough to know), so a blitzing shoot 'n run strategy will often leave behind survivors.
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I don't think that's correct, but it would obviously take a field test to prove it either way.
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Its been tested. It was hashed out in the Defender portion of the forum this past August, tested, and verefied. Each additional EF takes the amount of damage it would add by itself and stacks it.
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I have read elsewhere on these forums that there is a programmed hard cap to just how much a villain's resistance can be debuffed (just like there is a hard cap of +400% to your damage bonus).
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Perhaps but that's not a mathematical limit and even if so that limit also applies to the Ill/Rads who presumably will be using their weaker version of EF for the same purpose. In any event, the EFs are not subtracting from the affected's resistance, they cause the affected to take extra damage as if their resistance had been lowered and do so in parallel, not serially. (Such a shame that's probably the extent to which I'll use anything I studied in circuits.)
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I think you are grossly underestimating the advantage EIGHT teams hunting very quickly has over ONE team hunting super duper quickly (I think your defenders should be operating in 2 groups of 4 between buff rounds, which would help a bit).
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I will concede that the nature of the optimization is probably something that would have to be discovered in play and probably would vary from zone to zone, though I think more serves the Controllers than the Defenders.
As to leaving survivors, is the goal to scour the zone clean or rack up the fastest and easiest xp? Are you going to stop at individual mobs and waste time toasting them with either group? While there are spawns that are larger than the area of a Ball Lightning, most aren't anywhere near that large.
Lastly, keep in mind the 8 teams hunting seperately routine requires gathering periodically to dole out the benefits of AM. By keeping the team together you avoid the time loss, though that could be addressed by splitting into 4 man teams and having one team completely equipped with Recall Friend.
Under construction
To reply in the 'what could make a better team' genre, I propose the following:
7 rad / electrics and a dead guy.
Properly slotted, your 7 AM's are permanent and give you all the aforementioned benefits.
As part of the leadership pool, have the 7 defenders take vengeance, at at least one have recall friend. That way you can 'port the dead guy around and be perma-7x vengeanced.
As of 38, the defender electric set gets the notably useful ranged nova in the form of Thunderous Blast. Between the vengeance and the AM's and assault, you can probably just slot it for recharge, to have it up as much as possible - you've already got the accuracy and damage you need to one-shot groups of any size. Head to the Rikti crash site when you can and clean up.
This takes awhile longer to mature, but you can get vengeance by 20 if you work at it, and start running around with the rad debuffs, some nice electrical attacks, and a dead guy right when you're buying SOs. The problem may be finding the dead guy - but hey, if you're level 4 or lower, you get no debt from dying.
Alternatively, you can just find someone who doesn't mind living in debt and have them be the suicidal guy instead of dragging along a dead guy. You can mutate him back up after he dies and he can go get himself killed again.
If you're going with the dead-guy theme, get the rad primary in on the fun too.
A chain ripple of 7 Fallouts would be HILARIOUS.
Yep, still recruiting, though I'm not rounding up level 1 characters and taking them to the sewers. Just make up a character on Freedom and give Buffer Master a tell. I'm usually on starting at 8:00 PM EST.
Playing last night, we brought in a Blaster to SK one of the lower level characters. That's 7 Rad Defenders or Controllers and 1 Blaster. He kept on saying, "I love you guys". Recruiting this way almost makes me feel dirty. "Here, have some AM. Like it? It's free... tonight. Doesn't it make you feel ALIVE! Too bad after tonight you won't ever feel that way again. Unless... you become one of us." He said he's planning on making up a Rad/Rad and joining the SG.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I was on an experimental all Rad/Dark team a few months ago on Triumph. We even had a full template worked out for all but 1 or 2 powers to 22nd level. I ran a few times and got to level 12 then moved on to other experiments. It was an amazing experience.
Dark Blast is definitely the best power for an all rad defender team, even though some would argue radiation. (A lot of math went into the choice.)
I started this post Friday and never posted it...
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As to danger, I'm pretty sure the Defenders aren't in much danger either. 8 AMs means status effects probably pass in the blink of an eye. 8 EFs makes incoming damage laughable, and 8 Radiant Auras. . .well, any hit had best be a one-shot kill, which is unlikely under 8 AFs, assuming there all that many hits under 8 RIs.
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Now there you would be wrong. Starting RI or EF draws agro. At low levels you can take the mob alpha strike before they get unbuffed. Not so at higher levels. We tried some level 20 missions with a team of 8 last night (Dec 9), and had problems going up against the 5th Column. The mob alpha strike against the first debuffer was often enough to cause a face plant. And they do plenty of AoE attacks, which are supposedly not affected by power pool defenses like Maneuvers and Grant Invis.
It's entirely the alpha strike. After that, the mobs got so debuffed that we could finish them off without much difficulty.
Any recommendations? My thoughts are as follows...
1) Stack up on Maneuvers and Grant Invis. You just have to survive the AoEs as the direct attacks will mostly miss. Note that this seems to be a good idea anyway, as you can't always debuff mobs before being attacked.
2) Get an Ill/Rad Controller and have his Army take agro first. This seems like the best solution.
3) Find a tank. Buffed up, they'll be doing Scrapper damage! Unfortunately, they may decide to play a Rad Defender after they see us in action. "We lose so many good tanks that way."
4) Play in smaller teams. Bad, but this is what we did last night to finish the mission (with under 30 seconds left).
5) Open with crowd control. You can do this starting at level 6 with Flash and Grant Invis. Defenders get Choking Cloud at 18, but I don't know the timing of agro & the hold. Do you draw agro before the 5 second tic that holds mobs?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
lol 8 rads using choking cloud sounds ammusing i wanna see that as for the topic at hand what server r yall doing this on?
Champion Server
H - Temporal Flame 22 Fire/Time Controller
V -FlareKnight 38 Fire/Fire Brute
V -Swordsage 25 DB/Willpower Brute
V - EternalDusk 23 Merc/Dark Mastermind
lol 8 rads using choking cloud sounds ammusing i wanna see that as for the topic at hand what server r yall doing this on?
Champion Server
H - Temporal Flame 22 Fire/Time Controller
V -FlareKnight 38 Fire/Fire Brute
V -Swordsage 25 DB/Willpower Brute
V - EternalDusk 23 Merc/Dark Mastermind
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As to leaving survivors, is the goal to scour the zone clean or rack up the fastest and easiest xp? Are you going to stop at individual mobs and waste time toasting them with either group? While there are spawns that are larger than the area of a Ball Lightning, most aren't anywhere near that large.
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Electron Haze is a cone, and most other secondaries have a cone. You don't need to slot them for much of anything given the buffs & debuffs. Slot them for Cone Range Increase. You can get some mighty big cones.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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To reply in the 'what could make a better team' genre, I propose the following:
7 rad / electrics and a dead guy.
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I'm sorry, I'd like to comment, but I had to stop reading there while my spleen exploded from laughter
We did our first TF on Friday, Positron's. This is often viewed as the longest hardest TF, taking 3-4 hours for good teams and 7+ for bad teams. The first mission is one of the hardest, and a good indicator of how well you will do. Many teams don't make it past this. Smaller teams are usually better.
We had a full team of 8 for the entire TF. We had 7 Rads (one an Ill/Rad controller) and 1 Blaster (an alt because someone's Rad was only level 10 and some of the missions are in Boomtown). We had 2 chars at level 16 to SK an 11 and 12, and I think the rest were 13 and 14.
I was the only one to be defeated in the first mission. We had various other deaths later, including a couple near total team wipes facing level 17 CoT Ruin mages. But overall there weren't all that many. The average was probably 2 or 3 defeats per person for the entire TF.
We tried to do missions quickly, using Group Invis to run to the end of appropriate missions when you just had to defeat the end Boss and friends. I had TP and Recall Friend, and another char had Recall Friend, so we could move the entire team about pretty quickly between missions too.
In all it took about 3.5 hours. I think that's pretty good for an 8 person team. I gained 1 level, and I think some of the lower level chars gained 2. I got a nice shiny level 18 SO, which has already turned yellow because I hit 19 last night. The levels go by almost too quickly.
Looks like I'll have to do Synapse's TF mid week before I out-level it. Against Clocks, I think AM's END Recovery bonus mostly nullifies their secondary effect of END Drain. But I hope to do the Vahzilok arc tonight and see how the team does against an AV (Dr. Vahzilok) before we face Babbage and the Clockwork King.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
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Dark Blast is definitely the best power for an all rad defender team, even though some would argue radiation. (A lot of math went into the choice.)
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I like crunching numbers. Could you point me to these numbers, because I don't see this until you get moderately high level. And at that point there isn't really a very big difference.
Rad gets Irradiate and Electron Haze at level 4 and 10 respectively, while Dark gets Tenebrous Tentacles and Dark Fall at 16 and 20. The Rad versions do slightly more damage according to the Brawl index. The Dark version have much lower recharge times, but the significant Recharge Reduction of AM does a fair amount to reduce that advantage.
For single target, Dark Blast and Gloom do more damage than Neutrino Bolt and X-Ray Beam, but they have longer recharge times. AM reduces the RAD advantage this time, so Dark does significantly better single target damage.
Dark gets Torrent at 28, while Rad has to wait till 35 for Neutron Bomb. Given the Recharge Reduction of AM, you can probably cast the 3 AoEs almost as fast as they animate.
My guess is that levels 4-16 will go a lot faster for a Rad/Rad team than a Rad/Dark team. Starting at 4, the Rad/Rads can defeat all the minions in a group with Irradiate. Electron Haze at level 10 just adds insult to injury, literally. At 16 the Rad/Darks get Tentacles, but the mobs have more hit points. At 20 when the Rad/Darks have 2 AoEs, I'd consider them slightly better. They have better single target damage, plus Tentacles is a cone immobilize. That helps keeps the mobs together for debuffs. But by this point, if most of the characters have 2 AoEs, they will be dropping most everything but bosses and wanderers in the alpha strike. Dark will just clean up a little faster.
But there's more than crunching numbers. The psychological impact of 8 stacked AMs at level 2 is massive. Add to that AoEing masses of minions at level 4. Those two things give you a team that people want to be in all the time, once they see what it can do. Some people want to play different Rads, and that's fine. But for people just starting a Rad, I recommend a Rad/Rad Defender.
The SG is at about 40 members and growing, with one or two teams on every night. You stopped playing your Rad/Dark at level 12, before you got any AoEs. I made the SG and encouraged people to play Rad/Rad to reach my goal of playing a Rad Defender to high levels. I don't think Rad/Dark would have been as successful.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
An all-Rad team faced our first Arch Villain last night, Dr. Vahzolik. He was level 17, we were 10, 16, 16, 19, 21, 21. To make it reasonable, the 21s both exemplared to 16, and the 10 SK'd to 18. He went down real fast, and he barely hit or hurt us. It was a bit disappointing. We'll probably put a team together to do the Synapse TF in a few days, but I have a feeling Babbage and the Clockwork King aren't going to be too tough. The Clockwork secondary effect on attacks is END Drain, but stacked AMs counter that nicely.
Tsoo on the other hand were harder. We had a lot of defeats in a big team on a Tsoo mission. Those Yellow Ink Men dropped our toggles faster than we could put them up. AM does not provide a significant defense. Looks like our options are: more non-toggle defenses (Grant Invis), Snipe, massive AoE alpha strike, or stock up on Discipline Inspirations. We could all take 3 powers in Leaping to get Acrobatics, but that seems like a lot of effort for very little protection. We could also pick our battles, and just not pick Tsoo. But that's just avoiding the issue, and I'd prefer a solution. Any recommendations?
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I'm the L5 fire/rad controller named 'choke on candy', SK'd by Buffer Master on the Tsoe debt team.
Almost L8 by the end of the night. Most fun I've had since my ill/rad got PA.
I think we could have finished that mission, if we were just a little more carefull. When we pulled 1-3 cons, everyone standing way behind the puller, we were doing fine. The team got impatient, moved too close, and the whole mob followed. And when we pulled the whole mob, we should have ran back somewhere safer (doorway?).
TP foe maybe? I've heard that sucks though.
On all Rad defender teams, especially with 6 or more on the team, activation times for attack powers matter more than unenhanced cycle times. With 8 AMs and Hasten the first 2 dark blasts cycle as quickly as the first two radiation blasts but do significantly more damage. Moonbeam at 4th means it is slotted much earlier and is truly something to behold when 8 team members use it at the same time as an opening strike on an AV.
In the later game Cosmic Burst is hard to beat close up, which is where such untouchable groups tend to fight. In any case the earlier levels are much faster with dark since the same number of attacks is firing with either but dark has more damage.
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On all Rad defender teams, especially with 6 or more on the team, activation times for attack powers matter more than unenhanced cycle times. With 8 AMs and Hasten the first 2 dark blasts cycle as quickly as the first two radiation blasts but do significantly more damage. Moonbeam at 4th means it is slotted much earlier and is truly something to behold when 8 team members use it at the same time as an opening strike on an AV.
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I haven't seen many level 4 AVs. :-) Something that's very nice to see is masses of Minions and even Lts dropping to Irradiate starting at level 4. If you really want to compare damage, Dark Blast beats Neutrino Beam, but Irradiate blows away Gloom by nearly an order of magnitude against the masses of mobs you fight in a big team. Sure it recharges slowly, but you only need it once per mob group.
I don't think Hasten is worth much except as a prerequisite for Super Speed. Even without Hasten, 2 attacks will recharge almost as fast as they animate.
Stacked AM gives you such a large damage bonus that slotting attacks for damage makes a very small difference. Sure you want to slot them eventually to reach the damage cap, but don't waste too many slots on them early on. I added 2 slots to Irradiate and that's it as of level 21. At 22 it'll be at the damage cap in a team of 8, which is good enough for me.
It's far better to slot team oriented powers. The most important thing to fully slot early on is AM! Slot AM for Recharge so you have it more often when you run in smaller teams. AM is the equivalent of 3 Training : Damage enhancements, 4 Training : Recharge Reduction enhancements, and probably 1 or 2 Training: END Reduction enhancements in every single power for every character in your team. AM really deserves your first 5 slots.
After AM slot RI and RA so the mobs don't hit often and you can heal if they do. As you get higher you want to get and slot more team oriented defenses, as the mob alpha strike gets more powerful. That means Maneuvers and Grant Invis. Defeat slows you down, both with debt and reduced team firepower. And if you miss an AM cycle because you're running from the hospital, that hurts everyone a bit and you a lot.
Once you're done slotting team oriented powers, you might as well slot your own attacks for the little extra damage that you can.
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In the later game Cosmic Burst is hard to beat close up, which is where such untouchable groups tend to fight. In any case the earlier levels are much faster with dark since the same number of attacks is firing with either but dark has more damage.
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Who levels faster at levels 8 and up, a Fire blaster or an Energy blaster? The one with the big AoE alpha strike. Who levels faster at levels 4 and up, a team of Rad/Rads or a team of Rad/Darks? The one with the big AoE alpha strike.
I rerolled Buffer Master about a week and a half ago, and he's level 21 now. Most of the Defenders in the SG are Rad secondary. Those who play nightly are in the 20s.
Goodbye and thanks for all the fish.
I've moved on to Diablo 3, TopDoc-1304
I had an idea to counter the alpha strike problem.....
correct me if im wrong but you can use toggles like RI,EF, choking cld, ect when phase shifted, they just dont do anything. would it be posible to pre toggle, then simutain drop phase shift and mass iradiate? If you had CC toggled on just 1 or 2 people you should be able to hold nearly ALL of the mobs then you end up with most arnt shooting cause their held, the ones that ARE shooting are mostly missing cause of the mass dubuff then ones that are manageing to HIT arent causeing damage worth beans that can be patched with a few RAs.....
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DR MC Squared Rad/Rad
After reading this post I took Gamma Burst, my rad/rad alt, out of storage.
This morning I played for about an hour before work, and was fortunate enough to stumble upon another rad/rad of my exact level (we were both 8). One hour later in Perez Park, we had both gone up a level, and I have been wholly convinced of the insane power of an all rad team. Just two stacked AM's and we were significantly more powerful. I handled RI, my groupmate used EF (one each cuts down the endurance drain) and we just Irradiated groups over and over.
Anybody starting a radiation supergroup on Virtue? I'll join in a heartbeat!
Hey, are you still recruiting? I'd love to join!
Sounds like a lot of fun.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure. --- Thomas Jefferson
Formerly known as YFNDBA