Spines/DA: The Dust Bunny's AoE Guide

Romance · 10-07-2004 04:36 AM

Spines/Dark Armor - The AoE Dust Bunny

In this thread I shall be looking at the rare build that is Spines/DA. It's one of the small group of player-based damage-over-time attackers, the most prominent of these being the burn tanker. First there's going to be a few general points, then a look at the potential power choices and at the end will be three variations on this build. So if you want builds skip to the end.

The drawbacks of Spines/DA, what are they?
Endurance issues are the number one problem of Spines/DA. You use your endurance like there's no tomorrow, entering combat with 2/3s endurance or taking rests has become a common place thing for me.
You have no way of running your main resistance shields along with your status protection. Currently they are mutually exculsive, but this is being looked at (it just might take a few months to come into play. )
Do not pick this build if you care what your toon looks like, believe you me it's an ugly mess. But I like it
You are not indestructable, and never will be. The other three Scrapper secondaries will outshine you in a team situation. But occasionally people will go 'Wow'
It takes ages to switch your toggles back on, all of them with the exception of Quills and Dark Embrace have uninterruptable animations. This results in the Dark Armour Dance before combat.

Now we've had the drawbacks what are the advantages?
Dark Armor has the second strongest PBDoT effect after burn, this is one of the main reasons to bother with DA over the other, currently more superior Scrapper secondaries. When combined with Quills (and Quills slow effect) you get a significant amount of damage and the potential to /em newspaper mobs to death. Which always causes a few chuckles for the people who see it.
You'll have massive AoE attacks, but pretty much nothing else. You have to live with the fact that you'll be on minion mop up duty in most AV fights and you should avoid Bosses where possible too.
Psionic Restistance. For a lot of the game this won't factor in much, but in the 40 plus game (which I play due to sidekicking ) psionic resistance comes into its own. I've stood toe to toe with Psychic Babbage and Psychic Clockwork King when Invun and Regen Scrappers have fallen down to overwhelming single strikes. But Psionic enemies are few and far between, and many of them have alternate damage types (like Rikti Bosses) so this is a tiny area in which to be king. Still it's nice to be number one in one area.

What should I be killing?
Minions, minions, minions. Those big packs of 10+ white/yellow minions will become your friend. In the earlier game you can farm Blues with little risk at a fair pace and go with quantity rather than quality. This is in fact the creed of the Spines/DA scrapper, at the end of the day all exp is the same. Exp from bosses/AVs isn't more special than exp from minions. The minions I prey on are those without High Lethal or Negative Resistance or stacks of Status effects so Hellions, 5th Column, Freaks (when I can't find anything else), Crey (avoiding the tanks), Sky Raiders, Werewolves etc.
Bosses and AVs will give you a nightmare, this is where knowing a good single target Scrapper/Blaster pays off dividends, you'll be so specialised in minion farming that even a pair of bosses can be problematic to take down with any pace. Oh and those CoT Behemoths with Invincibility are irritating. Spines Acc sucks anyway without added debuffs.

Am I soloer?
Yes you can solo, that's the beauty of this build. But you can't solo every situation and also when soloing you'll have to take a lot of Endurance breaks and spend time switching toggles on and off.
If you want a decent pair of heroes to team with you can't go wrong with an Ice/Ice (Or Elec/Energy) Blaster and an Empathy/Dark(or Rad/Dark) Defender. The plug they holes in your build nicely.

When do I get my uber power?
There is no single power that rules the roost in DA, it's a utility set that adapts to different situations, you'll find yourself switching toggles on and off depending on the situations requirements. The DA set requires a lot of thought to use correctly, you might die a fair amount to using the wrong toggles for a given situation. It really is a case of 'know thy enemy' if you know what you're heading into then you have a fair shot at mopping up quickly.

Power Choice Breakdown:
Spines:
Barb Swipe vs Lunge:
Both Single Target (Barb = Minor + DoT/Lunge = Moderate+ DoT) attacks with -speed and -recharge effects.
For most people on the forums this isn't a debate, Lunge is considered to be superior. And for the most part this is infact true. But Barp Swipe can have a home in the S/DA build where it's advantages come into light. We all know the problems with Barb Swipe, low damage, long animation time. But it does have a few advantages that can be effective, especially in this build. Barb's animation time isn't an issue when most of your damage is coming from PBAoEs, Barb/Lunge is infact filler that passes the time while waiting for Spine Burst to get back online. While 'stuck' in the attack animation you'll notice that your PBAoEs are still chipping away at the mobs around you.
The other advantages to barb are it's low endurance cost, endurance will always be a problem with this build. The only way to solve it permanently is to team up with a defender that has endurance buffs. Barb has a minimal End cost and as a consequence it can be cycled several more times than Lunge could be without causing the risk of your toggles dropping.
The second advantage is the slow effect, Barb cycles back into the attack cycle faster than any other Spines attack. This means it's the only power other than Quills that allows reasonable stacking of the Spines slow effect. Last of all Barb + Kick (and maybe boxing I've not tested that cycle) is a continous chain of barb, kick, barb, kick, barb, kick. With no breaks in the cycle at all. You can spam these two over and over at Lts/Bosses while waiting for Burst to come back online.
The advantages of Lunge over Barb have been well documented, it has superior damage and a faster animation time. But it looks a lot less cool.
Slotting: Acc. If you want more single target damage go with Lunge and add more Dam slots to it

Spine Burst:
Melee AoE, Moderate + DoT, -speed -recharge
This is your number 1 attack for most of the game, combined with build up it's the opener of most combats and quite often the finisher. It's a superb attack with one drawback, the Endurance cost on it is huge (22) which makes it prohibitive to use more than twice a fight. The good news? Twice is all you'll need vs Lts and minions.
Slotting: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, EndRedux

Build Up:
Self +Acc +Dam
I think just about everyone in the game knows how Build Up works. It increases the damage of your attacks for a short period. It is worth noting that both Quills and Death Shroud also benefit from this boost. So popping Build Up at the last possible moment is quite the art form.
Slotting: With Hasten:- Recharge. Without - Recharge, Recharge, Recharge.

Impale:
Ranged, Moderate + DoT, Foe Immobilise -recharge.
Impale is a great single target attack, many scrappers love having a power to lock down runners I don't feel it's essential to the Spines/DA build. Unslotted it's not a very impressive power damage wise. I'm not fond of it but most Spines Scrappers would tell you otherwise. I feel it's an optional extra in the S/DA build
Slotting: Acc - if used to stop runners, Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam if you want the single target damage.

Taunt:
Ranged - Foe Taunt
There's not much to say about taunt, it has some uses in stopping runners, but Impale or Provoke do the job better. It's only worth considering if you can't find room for Provoke's Power Pool and you want some way of pulling agro away from other team members. Even then it's a bit of a sad power. In all honesty I'd advise skipping this, there's better choices out there.
Slotting: How about slotting Provoke instead?

Quills:
Toggle, PBAoE, Minor DoT, -Speed -Recharge.
This is one of your three main attack powers, by itself it can seem a little underwhelming when you first get it. The damage seems a little low considering the endurance cost. But persevere with it, the power shines whine slotted up and stacked with Death Shroud. It also has another advantage, it's the got the strongest slowing effect in the Spines line due to the speed at which it pulses. Whe mobs run away you'll notice the amount with which they have been slowed. For the direction I'm taking this build this is a must take power.
Slots: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, EndRedux

Ripper:
Cone, Heavy + DoT, Foe Immoblise, Knockdown, -Recharge, -Speed
This is the single target attack of choice, if you want to put the hurt on bosses and AVs this will be one of your primary ways of doing so. The power is awesome fun but it does have a lengthy animation time of several seconds. Be aware of your End and HPs when you activate this, don't get caught out in the middle of it when you should be running away. There are several tricks to using the cone correctly. It's a generous sized cone (when compared to Shadow Maul anyway) if a little short in length. If you wish to maximise the damage dealt by Ripper I'd advise practicing luring mobs over fences, they tend to jump over and land at similar points. Which provides you with a tight pack of targets to knock over onto their bums.
Slotting: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, Maybe an EndRedux if you plan to use this a lot.

Throw Spines:
Huge Cone, Moderate + DoT, Foe, Knockback, -Recharge, -Speed
What's not to like about this power? It's not the most damaging AoE in the game, it doesn't have the largest radius but it deals reasonable damage at short range to a large cone, the cone is more like a 180 corridor infront of you. Jumping just before releasing this power allows the spines to travel a little further before impact, which widens the cone slighty. It's an ace power that is a lot of fun to use.
Slotting:Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam

Dark Armor:
A lot of additional information on DA can be found here in this guide by elnino79 so I'm only going to touch on a couple of Spines/DA specific points here:

Dark Embrace:
Toggle +Res Smashing, Lethal, Negative
Smashing/Lethal Shield, doesn't stack with Obsidian shield.
Slotting: Right now without stacking? Res. When we get stacking 6 Slot this with Res.

Death Shroud:
Toggle PBAoE Minor Negative Damage
The third power that provides the heartbeat of Spines/DA combined with Quills this is around 40-70 damage per pulses (varying with mob type and Build up.) Also it is Negative damage and as a consequence is rarely resisted by mobs. This means it will often deal max or close to max damage.
Slotting: Acc, Dam, Dam, Dam, Dam, EndRedux

Murky Cloud:
Toggle +Res Energy, Cold, Fire, Negative
Right now this is a totally situational shield. Worth considering very early in the game and very late on in the game. But without status protection you can't consider using this except in very narrow situations.
Slotting: 5-6 * Res for those few situations where it's useful.

Obsidian Shield:
Toggle +Res to Psionic, Sleep, Hold, Disorientate
The shield of choice for the post 30 game. Combine it with Tough to try and make up for your lack of stacking resistance shields.
Slotting: For most of the game: Endredux. Late game (40+): Endredux, Res, Res, Res, Res, Res

Dark Regeneration:
PBAoE Minor Damage -> Self Heal
For most of the game you'll be trying to keep your Endurance up high enough to use this when things go wrong. The Endurance cost on this is monsterous. But it is the best single heal in the game, I've healed myself of 2 - 3K HPs with a click of this. It does have some problems though, there is a gap between the damage being dealt and you getting the HPs also atm it bugs and looks fully recharged when there's approx 5 seconds left. During this period if you activate it you'll get the animation but no benefits of the heal.
Slotting: EndRedux, EndRedux, EndRedux, EndRedux, Recharge, Recharge or Acc, EndReux * 3, Recharge *2

Cloak of Darkness:
Toggle +Stealth + Def
Providing a stealth effect combined with a 7.5% (maybe 10% not confirmed) defense bonus makes Cloak a neat little package. But it has one huge bonus. It makes your toon dissapear. Not turn transparant like most Invis powers but actually vanish leaving behind only the effects. What is so great about this? Well when you hit lvl 30 and have Auras you'll see. (or you can look about on the scrapper forums and see if someone will post you a link to a picture )
Slotting:Endredux, or 5 * Defbuff + Endredux.

Cloak of Fear:
Toggle PBAoE Fear
Elnino knows more about the CoF + 'Voke thing than I do I point you in his direction for the details on that.

Opressive Gloom:
Toggle PBAoE Disorientate
Having gotten this I'm of the opinion you can skip it for the moment, CoF + Voke does the job better. It's like a win more power, it helps you take on the groups of minions that you could take on before. But it does have some practical applications against +2 or higher minions (and the health loss is lower vs. them too.) But I've yet to stun a Lt with this power.
Slotting: Acc

Note: I'm not even going to look at Soul transfer other than to say avoid it.

Pool Powers:
There are 5 pools that provide the largest benefit to a Spines/DA scrapper. 2 of them are essential, another I consider to be very helpful and the last two optional.
Essentials:
Fitness - For Stamina. Take Hurdle, Health/Swift, Stamina.
Slotting: Stamina: 6 * EndRecov. Rest of them leave single slotted
Fighting - For Tough. You'll want it 6 slotted with Res by the 30s.
Kick/Boxing will be the second attack you cycle while waiting on Spine Burst. Keep them Single slotted with an Acc.
Weave is an optional power, but you have so many toggles it might not be practical. You can just use CoD if you so desire.

Helpful:
Leaping: - Combat Jumping covers the lack of Immobilisation protection DA has, and Acrobatics covers the knockdown. Plus Super Jump is so much fun. All of those powers are fine with the initial slot, nothing more than that is required.

Optional:
Speed: - Hasten is totally optional in this build, you don't need it to kill faster. Yes, I said that. Most of your damage comes from Quills + Death Shroud, Hasten doesn't help with these. The other problems are Hasten just amplifies your massive endurance issues and the Endurance drop from Hasten running out can be fatal, you have to know exactly when it'll happen inorder to avoid your toggles dropping off in combat.
Super Speed adds additional stealth to stack with Cloak of Darkness for near Invisibility.
Slotting: Hasten: 5 or 6 Recharge, Super Speed: As is with an EndRedux.

Presence: Optional if you don't want to Cloak of Fear + Provoke mobs to kill them. You'd only want this pool for Provoke, it's a bit of a pain having to take an entire pool choice for one power but if you group with blasters a lot you may well need this to keep the agro from switching to them.
Slotting: With Hasten: Acc, Without: Acc, Taunt, Taunt

Without further ado here are the builds:

elnino79's Hasted Build.
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Melee : Spines
Secondary Powers - Defense : Dark Armor
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Lunge /Acc
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Dark Embrace /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[03] Level 2 : Spine Burst /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[04] Level 4 : Death Shroud /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[05] Level 6 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Impale /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[07] Level 10 : Hasten /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[08] Level 12 : Obsidian Shield /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Speed /Run
Slot[10] Level 16 : Hurdle /Jump
Slot[11] Level 18 : Health /Heal
Slot[12] Level 20 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[13] Level 22 : Quills /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[14] Level 24 : Dark Regeneration /Acc,EndRdx,EndRdx,EndRdx,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[15] Level 26 : Boxing /Acc
Slot[16] Level 28 : Tough /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[17] Level 30 : Weave /DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[18] Level 32 : Throw Spines /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Cloak Of Darkness /DefBuf
Slot[20] Level 38 : Murky Cloud /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[21] Level 41 : Combat Jumping /DefBuf
Slot[22] Level 44 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[23] Level 47 : Acrobatics /Rchg
Slot[24] Level 49 : Soul Transfer /Heal

Note this build was created before CoF + 'Voke was discovered. I'm not sure exactly what would be switched about to fit those in. Elnino79 can chime in if he wants to post what he'd change now.

rrhal's non-Hasten build.
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Melee : Spines
Secondary Powers - Defense : Dark Armor
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Lunge /Dmg
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Dark Embrace /EndRdx
Slot[03] Level 2 : Death Shroud /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[04] Level 4 : Spine Burst /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[05] Level 6 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Combat Jumping /EndRdx
Slot[07] Level 10 : Boxing /Acc
Slot[08] Level 12 : Swift /Run
Slot[09] Level 14 : Tough /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[10] Level 16 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[11] Level 18 : Quills /EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[12] Level 20 : Hurdle /Jump
Slot[13] Level 22 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[14] Level 24 : Dark Regeneration /EndRdx,EndRdx,EndRdx,Rchg,Rchg,Acc
Slot[15] Level 26 : Provoke /Acc,Acc,Taunt,Rchg,Taunt
Slot[16] Level 28 : Cloak Of Fear /Acc,EndRdx,HitDeb,HitDeb,HitDeb,EndRdx
Slot[17] Level 30 : Obsidian Shield /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[18] Level 32 : Throw Spines /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Oppressive Gloom /EndRdx,Acc,Acc,Dsrnt
Slot[20] Level 38 : Weave /EndRdx,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[21] Level 41 : Murky Cloud /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[22] Level 44 : Impale /Acc
Slot[23] Level 47 : Cloak Of Darkness /EndRdx,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[24] Level 49 : Acrobatics /EndRdx

rrhal designed this to work as a duo with an exact copy of it as his partner in crime fighting. It's similar to the build I use, but he came up with it independantly from me.

My own variant:
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Melee : Spines
Secondary Powers - Defense : Dark Armor
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Barb Swipe /Acc
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Dark Embrace /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[03] Level 2 : Spine Burst /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,EndRdx
Slot[04] Level 4 : Death Shroud /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,EndRdx
Slot[05] Level 6 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Kick (Fight) /Acc
Slot[07] Level 10 : Hurdle /Jump
Slot[08] Level 12 : Combat Jumping /DefBuf
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[10] Level 16 : Health /Heal
Slot[11] Level 18 : Quills /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,EndRdx
Slot[12] Level 20 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[13] Level 22 : Dark Regeneration /EndRdx,EndRdx,EndRdx,EndRdx,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[14] Level 24 : Tough /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[15] Level 26 : Obsidian Shield /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[16] Level 28 : Cloak Of Darkness /EndRdx,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[17] Level 30 : Acrobatics /EndRdx
Slot[18] Level 32 : Throw Spines /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Oppressive Gloom /Acc
Slot[20] Level 38 : Ripper /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[21] Level 41 : Murky Cloud /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes

Yes I don't CoF + 'Voke. Though I consider it almost daily (and do have it on test.)

But with those three different builds to consider you can see the powers that are considered essential and the themes in slotting them up. I hope this is enough information for you to start if you consider treading the path of the Dust Bunny.
-Rom-

PS. if you want to respond to this to ask me questions I'd advise asking here, this link is inside the scrapper forum and I'm more likely to read it there. I don't venture outside the scrapper forum often these days. Also if there's anything else you feel I've missed feel free to ask about it or add it below here.

MoonCreature · 10-07-2004 04:49 AM

Nice write-up. I'd like to point out that all of his advise on Spines is dead-on. I haven't gotten ripper / throw spines yet since i'm 23, but everything else I 2nd.

No comment on dark, don't use dark and don't particularly want to.

Thanks for your contribution!

He_Who_Watches · 10-07-2004 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If you want a decent pair of heroes to team with you can't go wrong with an Ice/Ice (Or Elec/Energy) Blaster and an Empathy/Dark(or Rad/Dark) Defender. The plug they holes in your build nicely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I would take a controller with FF or Kin secondary over the defender.
They can lock the mobs next to you (if you aren't already using CoF+'Voke) and both Kin and FF can keep you status free and kin makes all your end problems go away.
Just my opinion though

Scuzzbopper · 10-07-2004 11:59 AM

Nice. You make me want to dust off my level 16 Spines/DA alt.

One thought I have about hasten (and granted I've only taken mine to 16 so far): Don't think of it in terms of hasten as "perma"-hasten all or nothing. I think this combo is one that you can take hasten and super-speed (as your movement power) and just leave hasten be with a single slot. You're not significantly more uber with perma-hasten, but hasten can still have value for your larger powers and the defense buff in boss fights and such, even if you never add a slot. Don't discount the value hasten can have, but don't think that you have to 6 slot it if you take it, either.

Seems like everybody has this mind set that hasten must be 6-slotted or nothing, but it doesn't have to be, and I think this power set combo is a good example of that.

CoH Codex : Demo Models/FX/MOVs : Demo Info

Arc 111022: "Doctor Geist and the Scientific Method"

MasterHung · 10-07-2004 03:01 PM

nice guide, very informative

to answer the question on if i will change my build, i gotta take stingz into the field and see how he does. a lil after the update he didnt seem to have a prob though. i was taking out orange and red minion groups and farming xp without a problem, all the enemies would die before they could inflict any real damage on him. 6 slotted buildup + hasten is definitely a [censored], buildup recharges like once every 20-25 sec it seems lol

Darkening_Flame · 10-07-2004 04:00 PM

A good look at Spines/DA, I'm impressed. I think it is important to note that at lvl 29 I am very glad I don't have hasten, I suppose for spine burst it would be nice, but I think that it probably belongs in another less end heavy build, especially spines/regen. I generally don't use spine burst until late in a fight against a large group of mobs, and will even hold off on BU until I have drained about 25% of thier HP, I find I walk out of the fight with much less END to regen.

The non-stacking of the armors is a problem, and has caused me to skip murky cloud and never slot dark embrace. This is unfortunate because of course I lack the benifit of some of my best defenses.

Steel Devil - Spines/DA - The Mercy Killers - Protector Server

Screwloose · 10-07-2004 11:24 PM

Very nice guide.

I'll just mention one trick that I thought the "Scrapper formerly know as" might have mentioned.

Cloak of Fear (like all Fear effects) has a To Hit Debuff.

I've only just started using it vs Bosses, who won't run from the fear but seem to get the debuff because it feels like I am being missed a whole lot more.

regards, Screwloose.
36 Spines Dark Armour Scrapper Justice.
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Demon_Nightmare · 10-09-2004 06:37 AM

Very good post, I would like to offer up my build, it focuses on both AoE (but w/o quills) and Single target damage (Impale and Ripper). I just rebuilt last week, thanks to everyone here that helped.

Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Melee : Spines
Secondary Powers - Defense : Dark Armor
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Lunge /Dmg
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Dark Embrace /DamRes
Slot[03] Level 2 : Spine Burst /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[04] Level 4 : Death Shroud /Acc,EndRdx,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[05] Level 6 : Hasten /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[07] Level 10 : Impale /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[08] Level 12 : Swift /Run
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Speed /Run
Slot[10] Level 16 : Dark Regeneration /Acc,EndRdx,EndRdx,Rchg,Rchg,Dmg
Slot[11] Level 18 : Obsidian Shield /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[12] Level 20 : Cloak Of Darkness /EndRdx,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[13] Level 22 : Health /Heal
Slot[14] Level 24 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[15] Level 26 : Combat Jumping /DefBuf
Slot[16] Level 28 : Kick (Fight) /Dmg
Slot[17] Level 30 : Tough /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[18] Level 32 : Ripper /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Throw Spines /Acc,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[20] Level 38 : Super Jump /Jump
Slot[21] Level 41 : Weave /EndRdx,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf,DefBuf
Slot[22] Level 44 : Murky Cloud /EndRdx,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[23] Level 47 : Acrobatics /EndRdx
Slot[24] Level 49 : Soul Transfer /Heal

Constant_Motion · 10-18-2004 08:28 AM

I understand the reasoning behind slotting tough instead of dark embrace, since at this time de and obs shld are not stackable. But I have faith that they will be someday. When that day comes my question is this: which offers better protection de or tough? My own thought is that de will be better. yes or no?

Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom

MasterHung · 10-18-2004 03:06 PM

Heres my updated build, what i would use

AoE Monster v3
Archetype: Scrapper
Primary Powers - Melee : Spines
Secondary Powers - Defense : Dark Armor
Slot[01] Level 1 (Starting Primary) : Lunge /Acc,Dmg
Slot[02] Level 1 (Starting Secondary) : Dark Embrace /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[03] Level 2 : Spine Burst /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[04] Level 4 : Death Shroud /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[05] Level 6 : Build Up /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[06] Level 8 : Impale /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[07] Level 10 : Hasten /Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[08] Level 12 : Hurdle /Jump
Slot[09] Level 14 : Super Speed /Run
Slot[10] Level 16 : Health /Heal
Slot[11] Level 18 : Obsidian Shield /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[12] Level 20 : Stamina /EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec,EndRec
Slot[13] Level 22 : Quills /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[14] Level 24 : Dark Regeneration /Acc,EndRdx,EndRdx,EndRdx,Rchg,Rchg
Slot[15] Level 26 : Boxing /Acc
Slot[16] Level 28 : Tough /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[17] Level 30 : Provoke /Acc,Taunt
Slot[18] Level 32 : Throw Spines /Acc,EndRdx,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg,Dmg
Slot[19] Level 35 : Cloak Of Fear /EndRdx,EndRdx,HitDeb,HitDeb,HitDeb,HitDeb
Slot[20] Level 38 : Taunt /Taunt
Slot[21] Level 41 : Murky Cloud /DamRes,DamRes,DamRes,DamRes
Slot[22] Level 44 : Cloak Of Darkness /DefBuf
Slot[23] Level 47 : Oppressive Gloom /Acc
Slot[24] Level 49 : Soul Transfer /Heal

as you see I use end reducers in everything, cause this build eats up end. Endrdx in attacks and offensive auras (DS,CoF) make a huge difference.

why no weave? because cloak of fear's acc debuff is SUPERIOR. acc debuff also means AoE defense, something weave doesnt provide. in a way this is dark armor's way to avoid aoe stuff.

instead of taking leap i went presence, because using CoF sort of requires provoke if used on minion / LT's

added in taunt at level 38, just in time for praetorian missions.. iuno why, i just love taunt. i tried dropping it from this build but i just can't. in scenarios where provoke misses a CoF'd target, taunting is a sure way to snag that one you missed with provoke (taunt never misses)

to add to that, provokes taunt duration doesnt cut the mustard against AV's when you're required to tank for the team (especially psi AV's as DA u'll be called on to do this). taunt spammed on an AV gets his undivided attention

testing this out it's a pretty good solo build that is basically an XP cruncher relying on killing mass minions and LT's in a hurry. In team play it also offers outstanding AoE support, lot of times outdamaging blasters later in the game. how? well blasters usually wont attack till the melee gets the aggro, and buildup+spine burst + throw spines+auras already equals dead even con-orange minions, alpha strikes belong to you I'm not saying this build does more damage than blasters can, just the fact you'll be attacking first to get the aggro, if you're fighting white-orange all blasters will be doing is playing mop up

Vhaln · 10-18-2004 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I understand the reasoning behind slotting tough instead of dark embrace, since at this time de and obs shld are not stackable. But I have faith that they will be someday. When that day comes my question is this: which offers better protection de or tough? My own thought is that de will be better. yes or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, DE is a base of 22% resist, while Tough is only 15% for scrappers. IIRC. I wouldn't build around "what the devs might do someday," though.

Romance · 10-19-2004 02:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I understand the reasoning behind slotting tough instead of dark embrace, since at this time de and obs shld are not stackable. But I have faith that they will be someday. When that day comes my question is this: which offers better protection de or tough? My own thought is that de will be better. yes or no?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, DE is a base of 22% resist, while Tough is only 15% for scrappers. IIRC. I wouldn't build around "what the devs might do someday," though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Vhaln is correct here. I finished slotting out DE at lvl 36 in preparation for any changes, but I ran the early game with it 4 slotted. It's worth noting that also DE provides a 15% base negative resist, which helps against CoT and Bone Daddies. DE is the superior power when looked at in a vacum.

Also it's worth noting that right now, with the changes to Martial Arts you can fight the grunt column (no vamps or mek men) with DE and tough running (yay for fighting 20+ mobs at once ). They have such a pitiful chance to stun that I've only been hit by it once in 6 levels and even then I shook it off so fast that I was able to round a corner, get my toggles back on and finish the combat.

Thanks for the build update elnino, much appreciated. My build looks very similar but with Leaping instead of Speed. So I don't have the hastened goodness you have. But I got tired of knockdowns

Constant_Motion · 10-19-2004 06:22 AM

I don't see why it's taking them so long on it, but I guess we have to move on. Plus I get another respec at 34 so here's what I'm looking at for now:

lvl 1 lunge, 3 slots
lvl 1 dark embrace, 6 slots
lvl 2 death shroud, 6 slots
lvl 4 spine burst, 5 slots
lvl 6 build up, 3 slots
lvl 8 hasten, 6 slots
lvl 10 impale, 4 slots
lvl 12 obsidian shield 6 slots
lvl 14 superspeed, 1 slot
lvl 16 dark regeneration, 5 slots
lvl 18 quills, 6 slots
lvl 20 hurdle, 1 slot
lvl 22 swift, 1 slot
lvl 24 stamina, 6 slots
lvl 26 cloak of darkness, 3 slots
lvl 28 boxing, 1 slot
lvl 30 tough, 6 slots
lvl 32 throw spines, 6 slots
lvl 35 oppressive gloom, 2 slots
lvl 38 ripper, 6 slots
lvl 41 weave, 3 slots
lvl 44 combat jump, 1 slot
lvl 47 superjump, 2 slots
lvl 49 acrobatics, 2 slots

I noticed ripper is often left out of an AoE build, but I like that move Should give me some bite when fighting bosses

Spines/ D A lvl 50 Scrap, stone/wm lvl 50 tank, Kat/reg lvl 50 Scrap
Grav/Kin lvl 50 Cont, Fire/Enegry lvl 50 Blast
Warshade lvl 50, PB lvl 39, nightwidow lvl 50, crab lvl 42
plant/thorns lvl 50 dom, ice/fire lvl 40 dom, grav/nrg lvl 41 dom

Tenacious_T · 10-22-2004 10:01 AM

A pool power question, if I may:

How does invisibility hold up with this? I've heard from other sources that being invis and popping in the middle of a group is quite handy, especially if you turn on the dark AoE once they all gather on you.

Also, I was really thinking about using Teleport as my travel power. Not only will it be good to TP into the middle of a group and set off quills/Dark AoE, but also to get away if I bite off more than I can chew. [b]Any feedback on this point/b]?

Thanks!

Grotus · 10-22-2004 12:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I was really thinking about using Teleport as my travel power. Not only will it be good to TP into the middle of a group and set off quills/Dark AoE, but also to get away if I bite off more than I can chew. Any feedback on this point?

[/ QUOTE ]
I use Teleport and like it with this AT combo. But make sure your Q/DS is up before you teleport in the middle of them. DS takes a while to start up, which defeats the purpose of teleporting in. So the timeline would be more like this:
1. Quills, Death Shroud up
2. Teleport into group
3. Build Up, [Your favorite combo here]
4. Summon Janitor to clean up the mess

Tenacious_T · 10-22-2004 03:11 PM

Killer.

Thanks for the tip.

Any thoughts on invis?

Romance · 10-25-2004 03:41 AM

Cloak of darkness provides some stealth effects in itself. I find this is sufficient to get the jump on most mobs. But personally I never turn off DS when playing, the rooted animation irritates me too much.

With Invis I'd assume this gives you a more effective version of Cloak of Darkness. But I couldn't tell you how much more effective it is as I've not tried it out. For the most part I've found that the range on DS/Quills and Spine Burst is enough to arrest most of the mobs before they close in a lot anyway.

I've thought about the Stealth line though, but mainly because I'd quite like to use Phase Shift. Depending on what happens to DA in the next update I might respec this pool in.

Tenacious_T · 10-25-2004 05:15 AM

Gotcha.

Yeah, I forgot about the cloak of darkness.

If you try invis, let us know how it goes.

Nowaki · 11-29-2004 02:59 PM

Quick question, Romance. Your write up describes Ripper as a single target attack. Is it a single target attack? I was under the impression that it's a melee-cone attack.

edit: never mind, I misread your description.

Thanks for the write up!

Romance · 12-13-2004 12:31 PM

Yeah I kind of open with a claim that looks rather like it is a single target attack. At least right above there is the word Cone so it's not a total error.

I'll fix that when I rewrite this entire post, but that isn't happening until after EEPs are finalised on live and we have stacking armours.

Also I'm swinging between Impale and Ripper as the better Single Target attack. I think the knockdown, the cone and the ability to hit 4 mobs at once edges out the range on Impale. Especially now that we have the ability to hit runners and ranged attacks in the EPPs.

(I really should check this more often but it's such a rare build that people don't post much )

eXnihilo_NA · 12-19-2004 08:56 PM

Very nice! Went and made a DA this sounded so fun.

Romance · 12-27-2004 10:39 AM

Wanted to add a quick note here just to cover CoF changes in I3.

Once update 3 hits CoF will become a viable power for use as a DA scrapper again. It will not require the use of provoke to keep the mobs in CoF range as the flee effect has been removed.

The Debuff from CoF is estimated at -20% base, but the end drain is such on this that the power wants around 2 end redux. Accuracy is not needed so optimal slotting would be end redux *2, accdebuff *4.

The cowering effect of fear effects minons and lts. It's still debatable if this power is superior to Oppressive Gloom but I'm of the opinion that for Spines/DA it is. This is because S/DA is so effective at killing minions quickly it doesn't need to keep minions disorientated that much.
On the flip side OG is better when you go after +2 or +3 minions for exp as stunning them is far superior at reducing incoming damage than reducing their accuracy.

Ulitmately I'd say that you take both CoF and OG to use when the situation warrants it. Flexiblity and adaptable play style in various situations is one of the most enjoyable parts of a DA scrapper.

We just need stacking armours and we're set. (apart from the gfx/sound issues )

Romance · 01-17-2005 05:48 AM

Another brief note just to talk about stacking armors now they've arrived on test.

I'm currently working on my version of the rebuild for Spines/DA the original build I have listed as my own is still viable and usable but in the 40+ game fast recharging Conserve Power becomes a huge boon to such an end gobbling build.

So I need to look at and write up about the EPPs. I think Body Mastery (with Conserve Power) is the EPP of choice for the Spines/DA scrapper but I need to get more data and speak to others.

James_Bonnell · 01-20-2005 01:35 AM

I had just decided that my spine/dark (now 27, Porcupine Paul on Infinity) was on hold until stacking armors... and what do they go and do?!

Make the armors stack!

*grumble*... now I need to work YET ANOTHER ALT into my play rotation... Nice problem to have since my spine/dark guy is fun.

So, anyway... I'm working on a build that will either Superjump or Teleport, but have no hasten (maybe until later).

I'm even thinking of putting off Dark Regen until 28, and probably picking up Murky at 30, just because there's no reason not to have it now.

1: Lunge, Dark Embrace (5) (damres)
2: Spine Burst (5) acc, endredux, dmg, dmg, dmg
4: Death Shroud (5) acc, endredux, dmg, dmg, dmg
6: Buildup (3) rchg,rchg,rchg
8: Impale (5) acc, dmg, dmg, dmg, dmg
10: Obsidian Shield (endredux)
12: CJ/Recall Friend (maybe)
14: Superjump/TP (maybe)
16: Swift (probably - currently a speedster)
18: Health
20: Stamina (6 duh)
22: Quills (2 at 27 - acc, endredux)
24: Cloak of Darkness (endredux)
26: Ripper (3 slotted at 27) acc, endredux, dmg or acc, dmg, dmg

I did a quick test mission (against even con Sky Raiders), and really had no problems with anything - the 26 Jump Bot went down pretty fast thanks to the boss rollback.

I'll sort-of miss Dark Regen (since it costs SO FREAKING MUCH endurance)... but the plan is to put it back at 28 - and I don't anticipate 27-28 taking all that long.

I'll probably also try Cloak of Fear at 28, just to see what it's like for me - the acc debuff can't hurt... if so, Dark Regen goes back at 30, and I'll get by with Health and greens until then.

Currently: 50s (5), 40s (3), 30s (5)
Red and blue side, mostly Infinity, Virtue, and Freedom.

Romance · 01-20-2005 04:32 AM

I'd say get Dark Regen at 28 and CoF at 30. Of the two I find Dark Regen is the most effective out of the gate. I got through the 20s and most of the 30s without CoF and things haven't changed that much. Plus at 31 you can slot CoF up to 4 slots (which is enough to start using it in the face of it's end costs.)

Now Leaping vs Teleport is a choice between numbers and flavor. From a mechanical point of view Leaping is the only travel pool of choice for Dark Armor scrappers atm. Combat Jumping and Acrobatics cover the holes in your status protection that Obsidian shield has. Some people can live without Immobilisation or knockdown protection. I can't. Even my Defender has Acrobatics and CJ.

Immoblisation is actually quite dangerous to face as a scrapper. Anything which locks down your ablilty to move in combat has the potential to remove you from a fight or even kill you. Knockdown is irritating but deaths from perma-knockdown do occur and that is frustrating. Plus as a slight bonus the extra Hold resistance Acrobatics provides means that hopefully you'll rarely get held, even when multiple holds are stacked on you.

And you can live without hasten fine for quite a long while, but you might respec it in at the 40s to try and keep Conserve Power on for as long as possible. I know I have done.

Edit: oh and if you go with Super Jump, take hurdle over swift. The way it changes the shape and speed of your jumping works out for a lot faster travel speed.