Adrenolin Boost: the disorient effect needs to go
By
1tonweasel,
Posted on: 2004-09-27 17:28 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Any skill that renders our healer unable to do anything for 15 seconds so one character can get some pimp end regen doesn't seem like it would helpful even like 2% of the time. That's cool i could fix it with stimulant, now if i just didnt need like 6 power pools i'd be golden!
As an Empath that just turned level 33, I chose to avoid AB due to the side effects and situations mentioned above. With hasten, both RAs flowing, and Fortitude, I and my team mates have not seen a need for it. YMMV.
Night N'Gale - Emp/Dark | Kalashnikitty - AR/DEV
Hands of Mu - MA/Regen | PhiloBeddoe - Inv/EM
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A view from the mushroom.
Dispersion Bubble halts/prevents the disorient.
For your list of situations, might not be intended though 
I must take a moment to comment.
THANK YOU for posting this as a Short and Long version. We try to read as much as we can, but when someone posts a 2 page explanation of why they feel a power needs to be changed, it is not always easy to read and will often get overlooked. If you want to get your point across, make a short post, or do what Lightless. Nice job.
Now about your post, I will be sure to put AB under the microscope for review. I do not know if we will change anything, as we already recently made a change to the power, but it has not lost our attention.
My duo-partner just picked this up; he just buys buttloads of dicipline inspirations and all is good.
But please, take it out... it's an uneeded hassle. I like the idea of halted endurance recovery; it fits empathy's theme of "aid another my hurting myself"
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Any skill that renders our healer unable to do anything for 15 seconds so one character can get some pimp end regen doesn't seem like it would helpful even like 2% of the time.
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Malta sappers.
But I don't know if that's more or less than 2% post 32.
...now wait just a minute...
Isn't zero end just as bad as being stunned? I mean, either way you're not healing, right? And either way it's easily overcome by the use of an inspiration, right? What's the different, really?
Sounds like 6 of one, half dozen of the other to me.
any bad part of AB should be taken away, i would say just up the end usage on it, or just take away the bad part of it.
It is suppost to be our uber last emp power, but as it is i can only really use it when i have resistance inisp or another emp defender around.
Quason, I think he's saying that after he uses AB, that endurance recovery halts, not that he gets dropped to zero. With any amount of endurance remaining, toggles stay up. That's why it's "more" advantageous to have it tha way, instead of an instant stun.
It definitely needs some work to become "main stream" and taken, there's many ways it could be done, but it still comes down to how the dev's "feel" it should be. The dev's definitely get around to fixing things that just aren't used, we've all seen that, just going to take time. 
Damage Proc Mini-FAQ
Just noticed Damage Proc Mini-FAQ wasn't working with new forums, it's been updated.
For those people who complain about the disorient issue here, I'd like to add this:
Anyone with Stimulate pool power or any defender/controler who has these powers:
Empathy/Clear Mind
FF/Dispersion Bubble
Kinetics/Increase Density
Can prevent it from ever happening, and so can the inspirations. In addition, the defender/controller power Accelerated Metabolism will cut the time you're disoriented down by a good bit.
For those suggesting end recovery be halted, I'm fairly sure "halting" end recovery would simply be applying a -100% endurance recovery debuff on said player.
Issue with that? Same as with the same effect on Nova and the like - it's overcome fairly effectively with Recovery Aura.
I don't know the numbers, but here's an example using assumed/made up numbers:
100% end recovery rate with the following modifiers: + 100(RA) - 100(AB) leaving you with endurance recovery of normal.
Now, you can add Stamina, Speed Boost or Accelerated Metabolism to increase that even further to have a better-than normal, in this example.
Both can be worked around, only the latter has a empathy-ensured work around built in, unless they code a new way to completely stop end recovery regardless to buffs.
A slow effect, -spd -recharge, would effectively be countered by: hasten & sprint/superspeed and/or speed boost.
There's your ideas with counters listed.
Which one can't the Defender do by itself? Only disorient, since there is no pool power that offers resistance, unless you plan to carry a ton of will inspirations.
And any way you slice it, a Kinetics defender/controller will offset ANY of these drawbacks...
As a the 'Final' power in the Empathy powerset, you would think AB would do something spectacular. After all, the other AT's get powers that they strive for when they hit 32. We get a power that is up for debate regarding its usefulness, and at initial first glance, needs ANOTEHR AT to be able to use effectively (by negating the 20 second status effect), or an inspiration. Are there any other AT 'Final' Primary Powers that have this kind of annoying restriction regarding its use?
-K
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As a the 'Final' power in the Empathy powerset, you would think AB would do something spectacular.
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+end recovery
+hp regen
-recharge
Sounds like something spectacular to me. I've had this power used on me since the change, and it's absolutely fantastic. One of the best reasons to have an empath on your team now, IMHO.
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We get a power that is up for debate regarding its usefulness, and at initial first glance, needs ANOTEHR AT to be able to use effectively (by negating the 20 second status effect), or an inspiration.
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At level 32 you have what... 15 insp slots? Most empaths don't do a lot of blasting (for damage anyway) so they don't need +acc or +dmg inps. Don't need heals since you have aura. Just bring 10 disciplines, 4 cabs, and 1 awaken with you everytime you go out. Base recharge is 5 minutes on AB, so with 10 disciplines, you're good for 50 minutes. Problem solved.
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Are there any other AT 'Final' Primary Powers that have this kind of annoying restriction regarding its use?
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All top tier nukes - full end drain and unable to recover end
Rad EM Pulse - unable to recover end
Invul/Unstoppable - massive hp and end loss
Regen/MoG - massive hp loss, can't be healed
So yeah, the "great situational power with a drawback" thing is pretty common among top tier powers. Empaths aren't getting the shaft here, they're among the majority.
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Anyone with Stimulate pool power or any defender/controler who has these powers:
Empathy/Clear Mind
FF/Dispersion Bubble
Kinetics/Increase Density
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Don't forget Storm Summoning's 02 Boost ! 
In addition to healing, it gives 60 seconds of resistance to Sleep and Stun/Disorient.
It also removes Sleep and Stun/Disorient.
I'll add my two cents in here, being a 43 ice / empath.
Simple solution. Have AB cost alot of endurance, along the lines of rez/ra.
Don't let it accept endurance reducers.
Maybe even tack on a -150% end regen for 5 seconds .
Very simple, very effective.
Also, why isn't there a speed enhancement of some sort so you can enhancement its -recharge factor?
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As mentioned, AB knocks off my 5 slotted Leadership powers AND my stealth. Which affects the whole team and makes me ultra vulnerable to random aggro.
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How about they just remove the stupid "game feature" which drops your toggles if you're stunned/held/etc.?
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Any skill that renders our healer unable to do anything for 15 seconds so one character can get some pimp end regen doesn't seem like it would helpful even like 2% of the time.
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Malta sappers.
But I don't know if that's more or less than 2% post 32.
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Or Carnies. Nasty endurance drain when they get defeated. I've seen my toggles drop more than once from this.
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Ah pleased to set the right example
In reflection I do see how losing all your toggles is in itself bad enough... so zero endurance with no natural recovery (without RA or inspirations) is harsh.
However, the workaround (stocking up on Disicpline inspirations) is kind of a let down for what should be the best power in the empathy set (I never knew this was possible but I wonder why we need to go to this length to use a power?)
If the 9th powers need to have a drawback, perhaps making AB reduce your endurance to 10 and prevent natural recovery for 10-20 seconds) is better?
This way, toggles don't drop.. but there is less reason to slot it for recharge and spam it. And since Catch a Breaths are more common than Luck inspirations... the requirement to purposely stock up on Lucks is removed.... rather, you can carry 2-3 Catch a Breathes.
At this point anything is better than what it currently is.
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any bad part of AB should be taken away, i would say just up the end usage on it, or just take away the bad part of it.
It is suppost to be our uber last emp power, but as it is i can only really use it when i have resistance inisp or another emp defender around.
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Haha you know, you should feel really sorry fomr Mind Empathy Controllers, I didnt realize till just now, but my Mind 32 power sucks, and the Empathy 32 (38 as a secondary) power has a big negative as well
As a 37th level Empathy Defender I haven't taken Adrenalin Boost yet and probably won't because the drawbacks seem to outweigh the benefits.
It would be great to know the intended use for this power. Is the idea for Adrenalin Boost to offset drawbacks to other top end powers like Nova, MoG, etc? If so, while this might work great in a duo, it doesn't seem like a good power for people who typically group with three or more people.
Suggestion:
How about turning Adrenalin Boost into an area of effect power? Turn it into a combination of Recovery Aura, Regeneration Aura and Clear Mind with a similar but more severe effect as Absorb Pain (it reduces the Empath to 25% health and renders him or her unhealable for 30 seconds)
(edit: clarity)
Short: dissorient of AB will get you killed and your teammates in situations where AB is the most usefull.
Long: there is no long... too lazy
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Quason, I think he's saying that after he uses AB, that endurance recovery halts, not that he gets dropped to zero. With any amount of endurance remaining, toggles stay up.
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Not for long though. I have a 48th Empath. I'm usually running Tactics, Manuvers, and Stealth. If I'm going to get hit with 20 seconds of zero endurance gain, then both Tactics and Manuvers are going to have to get shut down in order to help ensure that I have enough endurance to use my heals. Even if we assume that my endurance was full when I launched AB, that's still far too dangerous, especially against certain AVs at the higher end, like Chimera. (A praetorean AV who never missed an even level blaster with pre-nerf SG, hasten, cloacking device, 5x slotted defender manuvers, 5x slotted fortitude, and grant invisibility.)
Thus I'd rather have the disorient effect than zero endurance recovery. At least I might be able to work around a disorient by having it cleared somehow.
Overall I share the opinion that some of the above posters have mentioned. Far too may of the end powers for a lot of power sets have too much of a drawback.
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For those suggesting end recovery be halted, I'm fairly sure "halting" end recovery would simply be applying a -100% endurance recovery debuff on said player.
Issue with that? Same as with the same effect on Nova and the like - it's overcome fairly effectively with Recovery Aura.
I don't know the numbers, but here's an example using assumed/made up numbers:
100% end recovery rate with the following modifiers: + 100(RA) - 100(AB) leaving you with endurance recovery of normal.
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Moment of Glory halts healing pretty effectively, so I don't see why it couldn't be done with AB. I'm not saying it's necessarily a great idea (although it sounds interesting), I'm just saying I don't think there are any serious technical hurdles involved.
DS
I tend to agree, if there is a drawback, stun is better. Wish Atomic Blast had stun instead of Endurance drain hehe
I"m a Kinetic's defender, so .. I can't complain. We dont suffer drawbacks *sshhhh* but then again, if they put something like that on Fulcrum Shift, it would be about useless
AB is nice now though, simply put it on pre-combat, it doesn't have /that/ short of a time span, so you can do it during battles, and either get CM/ID from a Kinetics/Empathy or use Insp's. So, I agree, it should stay, I dont think it would be that bad considering AB is now only behind Transference in endurance recovering prowess as far as a power.
Ok I'll have to admit I'm not especially familiar with Adrenaline Boost as a power, but going from your comments:
- Using it inflicts the caster with a 20 second disorient
- It has a duration of 90 seconds
Based on these facts, couldn't use simply use it *before* entering a tough combat? Tack on an extra 5 seconds to re-enable your toggles, and you still have 60+ seconds of pure goodness with which to thrash the villains.
DS
SHORT VERSION
Please replace the 20 second disorient with a 20 second no endurance recovery (similar to Psychic Wail) or slow effect.
The only time AB is really needed, the disorient renders it catastrophic to the team because the empath is out of action.
Devs... please consider making this power a viable end-power.
LONG VERSION
I took AB since Issue 2 hoping that it was no longer useless... and IMHO it's still not a very good power..
The disorient effect makes it so situational that you can pretty much only use it when:
a) teamed up with another defender who can Clear Mind you immediately
b) can afford to stagger around disorientated for 20 seconds (e.g. you never needed it to begin with)
c) making lowbies in Steel Canyon feel like gods for 90 seconds
In practise, I will normally buff my teams defense with 5 slotted Maneuvers, Grant Invis and Fortitude... and they will go pretty well. When I threw AB on top, I saw no defensive benefit at all because AB knocks out my Maneuvers and makes me unable to heal/support the rest of the team.
As it turns out, team members had to chew on inspirations while I "recovered" and staggered in their general direction waiting for Heal Other to fire off.
In normal combat, AB is not needed.
In intense combat, AB is too dangerous to use.
As mentioned, AB knocks off my 5 slotted Leadership powers AND my stealth. Which affects the whole team and makes me ultra vulnerable to random aggro.
The disorient needs to go, and be replaced with no endurance recovery (or something similar... maybe slow effect).
Looking forward to some more positive changes