Slotting fire pimps, I did lots of math and stuff!
By
Achtung,
Posted on: 2004-09-20 09:38 in Player Guides
5 stars. I'm lvl 33 so they are not slotted up yet, but based on your work, I'm going 4 dam/ 2 recharge. Thanks.
It depends on your secondary and pool powers really. It also depends on what you're fighting. You should take Accuracy into account for your Damage per second calculation.
You'll also need to consider the secondary. Radiation will get a bit less rechage time from AM and the imps will hit more often and do more damage because of debuff. Kinetics will have a lot more damage from Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift. Even it's hard to reach the damage cap now, I think for kinetics it's best to have as many out as posible.
Qyn, lvl 39 Fire/Kin Controller
Tank Buster
Yeah, that percentage damage does not take into account hit/miss. So with no accuracy on the things, you might end up with alot less damage than you thought.
Cheers,
I have a 39 fire/rad. I dont have hasten and i slotted my pimps this way:
5 recharge
1 end red
Scenario: I can get up to 12 imps out constantly. i have absolutely no issues with soloing. I can solo a lvl 40 boss no problem (big woop say the blasters...but hot damn say I). The imps are the pinnacle of soloing (my wife has a 39 fire/fire blaster and i smoke her soloing EASY-i have holds, she doesnt, neener neener).
Hands down, the imps rock. I choose quantity over quality (becuase the imps have a dual purpose of keeping the badguys off me (decoys! hooray!))
good luck on everyone elese fire cont. build.
I find it important to slot at least one accuarcy for the imps. Plus keep in mind that I am backing that up with rad infection, without which I'd be slotting at least 2 accuracy. YMMV.
what is the exact amount of acc the update added? as of right now i have one acc one recharge and 4 damage, but this was pre update and i havent changed it yet.
so far i really havent had a problem with imps missing +1 and +2 mobs, and still hit pretty often with +3 mobs and up, will that be the same if i take off the acc SO and go with another damage?
id like to see the acuracy math added to this to figure out if ACC SOs are even worth using anymore on imps.
I thought the patch notes said 25% more accuracy on pets. I cannot confirm this myself (my controller is still level 29). I plan on running 6 slotted tactics. Between the accuracy buff, the tactics, and radiation infection on bosses, I am hoping I won't have any accuracy problems. I guess I will have to wait and see. 
I don't have a controller myself... But a few weeks ago I saw a level 50 Fire Controller fighting a Malta Titan in Skyway. (This was before the patch changed the Imps.) But, man, I'm betting he was wishing he could get more imps out. The Titan was one-shotting everything, and I think we all breathed a collective sigh of relief when he could finally get a new pack out when the old one was almost gone.
So, my 2 influence, (taken with a heap of salt, as I'm not a controller) is that I wouldn't slot them entirely for damage, but rather have at least 2 groups out at once. (I am a level 33 Dark/Dark Defender, though, and with Hasten, having 2 {rarely, 3, for a few moments} pets out has saved me a great deal of deadly aggro, even though my pets don't do that much damage.)
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The Titan was one-shotting everything.
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Since the patch my pets have more HP than I do, so this isn't a problem anymore. (Pre-patch, lvl 40 imp - 340 hp: Post-patch, lvl 40 imp - 930 hp)
Controllers can never have enough accuracy. Get Tactics and 6 Slot it! I would recommend getting tactics at 30 and having 4 slots in it when you get your pets. Then add 1 at 34 and 1 at 36. It makes a world of difference and Leadership has been fixed post patch (no more door mission/"join my team and quit" fixes!).
Pre-patch, I ran 4 recharge and 2 damage. Fulcrum easily made the imps hit in the 3 digit range, but if I ran up on a small group it would take 15 mins to arrest them. Post-patch I'm running 3 recharge and 3 damage. Which works out great for me, considering the Fulcrum "fix". I'll do some testing and see how well the other arrangements work.
A major flaw in your formula is considering how may imps spawn w/ each group. It's between 2-5. (which considering the last patch should have been raised to 3-5). Yes, i've gotten 3 groups of 2 out before and it sucks. And i've gotten 12+ out before and it's freakin' crazy! You can't hardly walk b/c the stupid imps get in the way. 
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So with 6 damage SOs my pimps will do 200% extra damage, or 300% total damage, or 3 times as much damage as if they were unslotted. So far so good, but now is where it starts to get confusing. These are numbers on recharge times. I got them from another thread and I assume they are correct.
No Hasten + 0 So - 240s
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Assuming that's correct, the table should look like this (you had a few tiny errors here). I'm leaving it in seconds to ease the calculations.
Hasten + 0 SO ---- 141s
Hasten + 1 SO ---- 118s
Hasten + 2 SO ---- 102s
Hasten + 3 SO ---- 89s
Hasten + 4 SO ---- 79s
Hasten + 5 SO ---- 72s
Hasten + 6 SO ---- 65s
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No Hasten + 0 So - average one group of pimps up.
Hasten + 0 SO ---- average 1.5 group of pimps up.
**snip***
It really made my head hurt to figure that out, and I know its not exactly right. But I am gonna go with it.
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You need only simple division to get the number you are after.
Max #groups out (G): ceiling(240 / Recharge)
Time with 1 less group (x): 240 mod Recharge
Average groups out: 240 / Recharge
For example, with Hasten + 6, you have out a maximum of 4 groups, but only 3 groups for 45 seconds out of each 240. The average number of groups is 3.69 (195 seconds with 4 groups, 45 seconds with 3 groups).
Hasten + 0: 1.71
H + 1: 2.03
H + 2: 2.35
H + 3: 2.70
H + 4: 3.04
H + 5: 3.33
H + 6: 3.69
You can see that 3 Recharge + Hasten is likely going to turn out the best, no matter what you combine it with. You will have 3 groups out almost all the time. Bumping up to 4 Recharge gets you 4 groups, but for a very short time. It's not really worth it.
Revising your last table:
6 Damage + 0 Recharge + Hasten: 513%
5D + 1R + H: 541%
4D + 2R + H: 548%
3D + 3R + H: 540%
2D + 4R + H: 507%
1D + 5R + H: 444%
0D + 6R + H: 369%
So I get the same results: maximum damage comes from 4 damage enhancements and 2 recharge enhancements, assuming that you are always at the accuracy ceiling. I would choose 3D and 3R, simply because you take very little hit in damage potential, while having significantly more imps.
It's probably worth slotting one accuracy SO to be safe--imps that miss are useless to you. Let's say you want to slot one Accuracy:
5D + 0R + H: 456%
4D + 1R + H: 474%
3D + 2R + H: 470%
2D + 3R + H: 450%
1D + 4R + H: 405%
0D + 5R + H: 333%
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Does this look right to yall? My controller is only level 29 so I really can't test this myself. What do you level 32+ controllers think?
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Very good number crunching.
One thing that you may want to consider which isn't taken into account when number crunching is the crowding effect of multiple imps. Even at 33 with my imps 4 slotted with damage (+hasten and tactics with slots) I'll have 2 groups out for about 20-30 secs it seems. With more than 6 imps I find they not only do they get in the way of me when in confined spaces (sometimes blocking doorways) but they also get in each others' way with some of the imps not able to get close enough to the mobs to actually attack. This problem can be even worse when in groups - scrappers and tanks can find loads of imps to be a major pain.
Therefore it may be worth considering slotting less recharge than you might have planned to in order to counter this potential problem. If you only solo and dont often have confined space problems then this probably doesn't apply.
In a few levels time I will have tactics 6 slotted and be perma hastened and so I will be planning to have 5 damage and 1 recharge I think. I also bubble my imps so having too many out will mean I won't have the end to dish out their bubbles.
Great post and one of the few where the math was actualy done and easy to understand. so i thought id bring it back up and maybe help some people with slotting questions.
As of right now i run 3 damage and 3 recharge and it seems safer although 4 damage and 2 recharge seems faster.
would 3 recharge/2 dmg/1 acc be gimp? thats what i have been considering.
Everything I'm about to say has basically already been said but since I like doing this kind of thing I'm gonna say it my way anyways.
First off if we are talking about average damage for the imps then it really doesn't matter that sometimes you will have more imps out than other times. We would calculate dps the same way we would calculate it for any other power. Here's the formula I would use for comparing DPS with the same power in a percantage form (100% * accuracy being the base DPS of that power):
DPS% = 100% * ( 1 + damage bonus ) * ( 1 + recharge bonus ) * (accuracy * ( 1 + accuracy bonus ))
______ bonus = # of ______ enhancements / 3
hasten is + 2 / 3 to "recharge bonus"
"accuracy * ( 1 + accuracy bonus )" cannot exceed 0.95
Also this does not include the crowding factor of course. Some people have been asking about adding the accuracy factor in so I'm going to make a bunch of assumptions which I believe to be correct even though I have no proof. When the imps were fixed the devs said that they were set as minion class as opposed to pet class. Minion classes have a 50% accuracy base. They said that the accuracy boost was 25% and I think that means it was added not multiplied. I mean that I think that their accuracy now is 75% not 62.5% since that just seems to make more sense. So here we go:
Note: assuming perma-hasten and even level SO enhancements versus even con bad guy no defense (de)buffs.
<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Base (without hasten) = 75.00%
0D + 0R + 0A = 125.00% 0D + 0R + 1A = 158.33%
6D + 0R + 0A = 375.00%
5D + 1R + 0A = 400.00% 5D + 0R + 1A = 422.22%
4D + 2R + 0A = 408.33% 4D + 1R + 1A = 443.33%
3D + 3R + 0A = 400.00% 3D + 2R + 1A = 443.33%
2D + 4R + 0A = 375.00% 2D + 3R + 1A = 422.22%
1D + 5R + 0A = 333.33% 1D + 4R + 1A = 380.00%
0D + 6R + 0A = 275.00% 0D + 5R + 1A = 316.67% </pre><hr />
So there it is. If you are worried about crowding go for 4 damage 1 recharge and 1 accuracy. If you are worried about aggro go for 3 damage 2 recharge and 1 accuracy. Thats it.
Ian Moore
I go with 4 recharge, 1 aim, 1 damage:
Things I have not seen considered so far....
With more recharge the downtime starting a new lvl or if the imps are wiped out is less. With more imps the crowd control factor is higher. When you are fighting big groups (as when oyu are in a team 3+ or solo in a hazard zone) each mob that is fighting an imp is not fighting you. Thus more imps is better.
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It depends on your secondary and pool powers really. It also depends on what you're fighting. You should take Accuracy into account for your Damage per second calculation.
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with the new 75% base tohit + 33% base from 6 slotted tactics make you past the 95% mark on evens and +1s so why would you throw one in there if you don't get the full effect?
Not doing any sort of math but just trying out my latest toon in Abandoned Sewer Network. Here´s what I came up with.
This toon is fire/kin build(atm at level 38). Currently the only powers I use are the ones below(and how i slotted them):
Slotted Transference 1acc, 2 recharge,3 end rec. Making it recharge about 85-90 end in one hit, while still draining even bosses to almost nothing, leaving them without toggles(in case of CoT, and no aeholds in case of rikti ments).
Transfusion: 1xAcc, 1xRecharge Red, 4xHeal. Heals up moderately good since it´s the most powerful aeheal in the game, need to make sure it hits though, thats why the acc.
Cinders: 2xAcc, 4xRecharge red. Face it, you WANT to hit everything at first go, not bothering to use flashfires+fire cages. You´ll know why soon enough.
Flashfires: slotted same as Cinders.
Siphon Power: 1xRecharge Red.
Fulcrum Shift: 1xRecharge Red.(so far, will slot it up next level)
Speedboost: 1xRecharge Red.
SuperSpeed: 1xEnd cost red.
Assault: 1x End cost red.
Tactics: 1xEnd cost red. 5xAcc Buff
(This build assumes I have 6slotted Haste and Stamina as well)
These are all the powers i use to solo, no matter how many bosses/liuts there are in a group. I do the fastest exp with groups of +1 or +2 levels considering exp vs time factor.
This is why for fire/kin imps are wanted in quantity, nothing more:
Enter sewers, summon 2 groups of imps, just enough time to waste speedboosting them. Superspeed up near the first group of monsters, targeting the nearest boss, as soon as the imps agro, youll have your third bunch of imps ready, summon them somewhere in the middle of the group and transfusion on the boss(regaining all your end). Imps have agro already, so youre safe to use cinders. heal the imps once, then have transference up again ready for the next boss, but before that, Fulcrum shift and siphon, then drain him empty and refill. This keeps your endurance bar never hitting below 40%, not getting targeted by holds from liuts/bosses and your imps at 3xsummons perma and after the first group no need to speedboost them either. No sweat.
So i say 1 dam, 5 recharge on Imps if youre kinetic and slotted this way. But hey, Just my own preference since i like to play it "safe" and optimize my efficiency vs just slightly more powerful mobs. 
Stay safe out there.
Currently I am a lvl 43 fire/storm troll. Imps are slotted 3 recharge and 3 damage and I am finding myself taking on quite a bit. I've managed to solo lvl 47 LT's and even lvl 47 Fake Nemesis
ok, based on this i have fire imps with 3/3 and sings with 6 recharge. here's a question, would this info also work on other powers? ie, would burn have more damage over time with 4 damage 2 recharge than 6 damage?
Then the question is: does that power allow you 2 instances at the same time if you can have it up? Most damagepowers do stack with itself if you have the recharge to cast it more than one time. as i do with the blaster power Ignite on some bosses when in team, the loss here would be the loss of damage due to animationtime and mobs getting missed, but more often than not you want faster recharge and higher accuracy for everything unless you are a blaster. Since blasters can deal out enough damage to kill off most assailants in 2-3 attacks and you dont have the luxury of extremely high ae dps...
With everything but blasters, i go with speed>acc>dam in that order, has worked fine ever since i got the game on the week of the release =)
with no recharges in burn its up constantly, with 2 recharges they overlap for a good few seconds... i've been testing out, against whites is not that useful, i need a burn + fire sword circle to kill things. it does seem to help against yellows and up though, for the seconds it overlaps its basically doubled the damage, their health very quickly goes from going down quickly to going down very very quickly 
Sounds very nice I talked to a friend playing a firetanker and he said you should try with 3 or 4 recharge a cpl of times vs white and yellow cons. Try to sum up the total damage dealt when burn overlaps once ortwice and compare between that and when you have it only 2slotted w recharge reds =)
Sry man but u were WAY off with the imps cast thing.
With 6 SO's of recharge you get your cycle down to 23 seconds with no hasten 
There have been other threads on slotting these pets, but I think I kinda brought it all together here. The only problem is, I am not really sure that I did it right. So let me know what yall think.
I'm trying to figure out what will give me the absolute best dps for my fire pimps. I will just be using damage and rechargey enhancements. No accuracy because the last patch boosted their accuracy and I will be running tactics to make it even better.
Ok, for starters, the obvious. This is the effects of damage SOs.
0 = 100% damage
1 = 133% damage
2 = 166% damage
3 = 200% damage
4 = 233% damage
5 = 266% damage
6 = 300% damage
So with 6 damage SOs my pimps will do 200% extra damage, or 300% total damage, or 3 times as much damage as if they were unslotted. So far so good, but now is where it starts to get confusing. These are numbers on recharge times. I got them from another thread and I assume they are correct.
No Hasten + 0 So - 240s
Hasten + 0 SO ---- 2m21s
Hasten + 1 SO ---- 1m58s
Hasten + 2 SO ---- 1m41s
Hasten + 3 SO ---- 1m28s
Hasten + 4 SO ---- 1m19s
Hasten + 5 SO ---- 1m11s
Hasten + 6 SO ---- 1m04s
Ok, I have permahasten so that isn't an issue. To make this information useful, I need to convert it into average amount of pimps up. Some of it is easy. Like if I had no hasten and no SOs, I would have one group of pimps up at a time. They have a 4 minute lifespan and take 4 minutes to recast. If I had 6 SOs I would have 4 groups of pimps up at a time, recasting a new group about every minute. I think the following is basically correct, or close enough...
No Hasten + 0 So - average one group of pimps up.
Hasten + 0 SO ---- average 1.5 group of pimps up.
Hasten + 1 SO ---- average 2 groups of pimps up.
Hasten + 2 SO ---- average 2.333 groups of pimps up.
Hasten + 3 SO ---- average 2.666 groups of pimps up.
Hasten + 4 SO ---- average 3 groups of pimps up.
Hasten + 5 SO ---- average 3.5 groups of pimps up.
Hasten + 6 SO ---- average 4 groups of pimps up.
It really made my head hurt to figure that out, and I know its not exactly right. But I am gonna go with it. Ok, so now I get the following possible scenarios.
0 Damage, 6 recharge = 4 groups of pimps doing 100% damage.
1 Damage, 5 recharge = 3.5 groups of pimps doing 133% damage.
2 Damage, 4 recharge = 3 groups of pimps doing 166% damage.
3 Damage, 3 recharge = 2.666 groups of pimps doing 200% damage.
4 Damage, 2 recharge = 2.333 groups of pimps doing 233% damage.
5 Damage, 1 recharge = 2 groups of pimps doing 266% damage.
6 Damage, 0 recharge = 1.5 groups of pimps doing 300% damage.
Ok, I feel like I am starting to see the light at the end of the tunnel! Now to figure out the last bit of math to figure out the absolute benefit. Hmmm, well 4 groups of pimps doing 100% damage is easy, that's 400% damage... But what is 3.5 groups doing 133% damage... is that 465.5% damage? I'm not sure if it works that way, but I can't figure out any other way to do it. So I guess I am left with this....
0 Damage, 6 recharge = 400% damage.
1 Damage, 5 recharge = 465.5% damage.
2 Damage, 4 recharge = 498% damage.
3 Damage, 3 recharge = 533.2% damage.
4 Damage, 2 recharge = 543.6% damage.
5 Damage, 1 recharge = 532% damage.
6 Damage, 0 recharge = 450% damage.
So it looks like the best deal in terms of dps is 4 damage and 2 recharge SOs. Hmmm, I still think I will go 3 and 3 though. I will only be losing a small about of damage and I will gain more pets up on average. I am assuming more pets means more mobs hitting the pets and less mobs hitting me.
Does this look right to yall? My controller is only level 29 so I really can't test this myself. What do you level 32+ controllers think?