poopy

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I just don't see the supply doing anything but dropping drastically. These are already rarer than purples and, tho similar and better than normal set IO's, they're not as good as purples with their Superior bonuses. My point is still valid I think. Why do the devs want the drop rate so low?

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In addition to being technically superior, purple and pvp sets are also suppose to be trophies of sorts. They are for "showing off." My guess would be the devs want these to be extremely rare, reserved for the "bill gates" of the CoH playerbase. Think of them as the "ferrari" in the game economy, items that the few who have can elicit jealousy from the many who don't. If they were to make purple and pvp sets more common, then they will just eventually have to introduce another set that is extremely rare. A big part of MMOs is the striving to join the upper echelon of the playerbase: the "epeen" mentality.

Couldn't the same strategy used in rep farming (the 400 rep badge/gladiator) be used here? While not as efficient as just killing the same target over and over again, cycling through a few alts would still yield an *acceptable* kill rate? My personal experience with a very good alt cycler was 7 alts / 10 minutes.

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Considering the amount of time that has passed and the major restructuring of base costs over the years I feel the 500:1 conversion ratio is out of date for all sorts of reasons now.

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Due to the huge inflationary pressures in the market, the conversion is starting to look not as bad as before. While not a completely accurate gauge, the prices for INF being email spammed on a daily bases from RMT is a relatively good indicator of inflation in the market. In a span of just 6 months, 1 billion inf has gone from over $100 to now slightly over $30 and dropping every week.

What this means is that the same "effort" now will earn someone much more absolute inf than 6 months ago. For example, someone spending a certain amout of time marketeering 6 months ago may get X amount of inf/time. The same effort now may get say 3X amount of inf/time. Since (certain) items also cost significantly more in WW, earning 3X the amount of inf/time wouldn't necessarily allow someone to buy 3X more items (i.e. buying power isn't increased).

However, since the 500:1 conversion ratio is fixed (i.e. not adjusted to some sort of inflation index), the ratio actually becomes cheaper over time as our ability to generate inf/time increases due to inflation.

My assumption is, of course, that players do participate in WW, even if not actively marketeering. Even just crafting enhancements from recipe drops nets a pretty decent profit that were much smaller just 6 months ago.

On a personal note: SG mode really puts a damper on one's ability to get the inf badge. I do hope the devs would factor in the "lost" inf towards badge progress while in SG mode.

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haha yea that may be the point of this pvp nerf but if all everyone had was brawl... some people would just be better then others just because they have more skill/experience...this will always be true no matter what lol...in the old pvp if u didnt have the skill or experience u got it eventually by continuously pvping... everyone had no skill at one point... practice made perfect...but with this new pvp u can throw skill out the window.

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This is just my humble theory of the dev's intentions, no matter how poorly implemented. Unlike in RTS or FPS games, PvPing in RPG games require "skills" in many more categories to win. I'll see if I can break them down.


1. skill in designing optimal builds with proper skills (and enhancement slots)

2. skill in acquiring the inf to fully load up on purple and pvp sets (and other extremely expensive enhancements) to min/max

3. skill in just choosing the right AT (class) due to the rock-paper-scissors syndrome, as ATs (given everything else equal) are just naturally better against some ATs and worse against others

4. skill (or luck) in not lagging

5. skill in knowing the proper strategy to use in any given situation

6. skill in developing fast reflexes and reactions

7. skill in getting into a good PvP SG/VG (guild)

8. skill in forming proper teams


Other than (4) being prominent in every PvP type, (5) is the focus of RTS, while (6) is the focus of FPS. RPG basically needs to focus on all of them. Even Guild Wars, which was designed and balanced around PvP, only really focused on taking (2) out of the equation and attempting to minimize the effects of (3).

My guess would be the devs here wanted to minimize (1), (2), and (3) and make (5) and (6) be the main focus. In other words, I believe the devs wanted PvP here to be more like FPS/RTS.

Well then, how is any of this an "improvement" to the game other than to perpetuate the notion that leveling to 50 in and of itself should be rewarded with all sorts of top-end items? The reward to leveling a character to 50 is simply having a level 50 character and nothing else.

There is a crystal clear concept: actions that (most efficiently) level a character are seperate from actions that (most efficiently) gain items for that character. This ideology has been around MMOs for a very long time.

By having an XP multiplier, but NOT drop multiplier in teams, is the devs way of suggesting that teaming should be the optimal choice for gaining levels, not drops. Again, this notion has been around for awhile. How many MMOs even have a drop multiplier for teams?

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1: Currently, drop rates for soloing are fine. The suggestion I'm making specifically is for teams. You CAN change one without changing the other, by adding in a multiplier for teams, which is what the thread was about if you had bothered to read it.

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The main point of contention is...why should teams have both an XP and drop multiplier? Teaming already allows you to get merits and other rewards more efficiently than soloing. Merits itself can be considered a drop, which is severely lacking in solo play. We just have to disagree then. You think solo drop rates are fine, and I think team drop rates are fine.

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2: And now you try to make it a zero-sum game, where something ust be lost to have something else gained. A large part of the point is that teaming actually penalizes a person as far as salvage and recipe drops go. I would like to close the gap between a soloist and a dedicated team player a bit. It STILL wouldn't even be close, but it would be closer.

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Where's your concern for the dedicated soloist? How are they suppose to get merits efficiently? Where's their increase in flashback merits? It's a zero-sum game because a single playstyle shouldn't be more efficient at everything.

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3: 2 accounts. 4-5 hours a night. Often 2-boxing. Off and on for the last 5 years. Does that meet your criteria? Have you considered your own assumptions carefully? Just covering all the bases.

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This means nothing because you haven't listed what you have actually done to earn the top-end items. Have you tried anything else? Solo farming? Market PvPing? If you 2-box...have you farmed for PvP recipes in arena? AE ticket rolls?

Here's my assumption. Let's see if I got this right. You chose to team because of the increase in XP and the merits. You got greedy. Now, you also want more drops with teams. You feel entitled to be able to earn everything from simply teaming. Because you don't like to farm or use the market or won't sacrifice XP gain, you don't do much outside of teaming. You have a ton of alts and spread your wealth too thin trying to equip them all, rather than just focusing all of your effort on gearing up one character. You can't seem to grasp the concept that different playstyles may be required between leveling alts to 50 and getting gear for them. You also can't seem to grasp the difference between "want" and "need" with regards to IOs.

That close enough?

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Still, changing team drop rates wouldn't affect soloists one bit, and it would increase the rewards for those that do team, whether it be PUG or group of close friends.

Kinda sad, the thread became yet another farm thread. I thought the market forum might be better than the rest of the forums at keeping things on track.

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Hrm.....if changing team drop rates won't affect soloists, then why would the drop rate of the soloist affect teams in the first place? The logic should go both ways.

Anyways, the point is teams are already more efficient in many aspects of the game. Would you rather the other way around...no XP bonus, but drop rate bonus for teams?

Just a thought...have you ever considered simply putting more effort and time into getting the items you want? Just making sure all the bases were covered.

There are also other factors to consider when teaming. On TFs, are merits shared? Are mission completion bonuses shared? How about badge credit....do each party member get 1/8 of an illusionist kill?

Since many party rewards aren't shared and divided, but given in full to every party member, the greater efficiency in acquiring those particular rewards could've factored into the overall drop rate difference between teaming and soloing, in addition to the party XP bonus. The devs probably balanced the overarching pros and cons between teaming and soloing, so that one isn't overwhelmingly more efficient than the other in all aspects of the game. Keep in mind, soloing is just as important as teaming in MMOs.

However, though...why is there an expectation that casual teaming should yield so-and-so amount of loot for players? Highly-sought after stuff should require more effort. Keep in mind, not even ALL purples are expensive. Do Soulbound Allegiance or Fortunata Hypnosis need an increase in drop rate? Rather than focus on supply, why haven't you considered the demand side of the equation? Too many people want the Hecatombs and the LOTG recharges without increasing their effort beyond casual play. If you're so concerned about getting items as efficiently as possible, then start soloing. Of course, you would have to sacrifice XP bonus, merits, and a ton of other things in the process that other soloers have to put up with.

It's going to be a neverending cycle. If you haven't noticed, PvE MMOs (CoX PvP doesn't count), have inherent hierarchies in the playerbase, similar to the real world. If the devs were to make more and more players be able to get all the good stuff, then they will need to introduce another "color" to replace purples at the top....fuchsia maybe?

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If the IO and salvage drop rate is balanced around soloing, then should the devs add a scaling mechanism similar to teh way XP is handled, with large teams getting less per person, but more overall? Or should drops for 8-person teams stay the way they are? If the drop rate IS considered balanced for large teams, would solo farming be considered "not working as intended," because of the higher reward rate?

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If a person can solo spawns that are normally set up for 8-person teams, that's great for the person. Not every character can solo like that because it's much more difficult. Since it is harder for the soloer than the team, then obviously the soloer should get more loot. Thus, I think the drop rate is balanced, at least based on the mythical "risk vs. reward" concept.

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I obviously think that the drop rates across the board should be raised, and significantly.

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Decreasing the amount of inf generated (significantly) and/or increasing the amout of inf being destroyed (significantly) will also lead the lower prices. The fundamental difference is .... should everyone be able to get what they want or should the top of the line items be reserved for a select few.

Personally, I will have to go with the latter. Until the devs start balancing the game around anything more expensive than SOs, then people are only entitled to SOs. Anything above that should require some effort to get.

On a side note, I've observed a huge factor that makes it hard for people to get items: alts. Having alts, rather than just one toon, requires extra leveling time that could be used to farm inf for the one toon. Also, it costs tremendously more inf to outfit multiple alts vs. just one toon. People have to spread their wealth around multiple alts, rather than putting all their wealth into just one toon. I think if people insist on having alts, then they need to realize their ability to outfit them all greatly decreases.

Ah, this concept of "risk vs. reward" being held as the holy grail of CoX........

Well, something has blatently spat on our dear ideology: HamiOs.

Currently, three activities in the game reward a random HamiO upon completion. However, each of those three activities also has an option to substitute a merit reward for the HamiO, as follows (according to paragon wiki):

STF = 38 merits (usually 40-42 due to the flier)

LRSF = 25 merits

Hami Raid = 52 merits

Here, we have a rather large inconsistency with the "risk vs. reward" concept.

A) The rewarding of a single random HamiO at the end of each activity would suggest that the risk for all three activities are the same because the reward is the same.

B) The rewarding of different amounts of merit at the end of each activity would suggest that the risk is different for each activity, based on the number of merits awarded.

Personally, I arrived at two possible conclusions, but that's just me.

1. If the risks are different between the three activities, then this would suggest that the devs are fine with the "risk vs. reward" being different between various content in the game.

or

2. If the risks are the same between the three activities, then this would suggest that the devs borked their risk assessment formula for merits.

edit: The responses has generated even more inconsistencies.

- If risk is not equal to time and a huge portion of the game is using a "time vs. reward" philosophy rather than "risk vs. reward," then the latter shouldn't be held up as the standard for CoX content (i.e. AE). Otherwise, it would seem to be very arbitrary which content will get which formula applied.

- So then, does this mean HamiOs are awarded based on "risk vs. reward," while merits are awarded based on "time vs. reward" in these three activities? If this is true, then it is a huge inconsistency right there. That means not only do different content have different formulas for rewards, but rather the SAME content has multiple rewards based on different formulas.

- If the HamiO is also rewarded based on "time vs. reward" like the merits, then the same inconsistency as I first stated still exist. Rewarding the same random HamiO in each activity would suggest that the time to complete is the same. Rewarding different amounts of merits would suggest that the time to complete is not the same.

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It is that very reason which illustrates why MMOs should never be a subscriber based democracy and players should never be allowed to govern.

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Actually, in this case..I'm not too sure about that. *IF* what the AE whiners are saying is true, then that must place them in the minority of players in CoX. If they can't get parties to do "real" content because everyone is in AE, then that means the majority of players wouldn't want to nerf AE.

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Just playing to fifty does not guarantee you enough inf to IO your toon with sets,

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And it is not supposed to. Just because a player got a character to level 50, does not mean they are entitled to IO sets.

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*ding* and we have a winner!

Last time I checked, there wasn't a welfare department in the game. What made you think you should be entitled to IOs when you hit 50, especially when the devs have repeatedly stated the game is balanced around SOs.

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How about a happy medium? Cut XP by 1/2 in the AE. Also, Make it so that one needs to be of a Zone's level or lower to use a given AE. That way 50s would go to PI and still be able to PL people, and lvl 1s could use the AE in Atlas to play actual content.

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That is horribly restrictive. The main question is...*why* should people have to play "actual content" if they don't find it enjoyable.

This smacks of trying to force other players to play the way you want them to. Rather than trying to change everyone else's playstyle, why don't you you bite the bullet and change your playstyle to fit others. If you're not willing to change, how do you expect others to. Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong.

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but if they wanna publish it and play it for xp and access the rest of the features and stories in AE, they need at least one vet badge, this will prevent newbies from farming AE and getting to 50 and not knowing how to play for real, and vets who don't want to take the time to level normally will have the option of farming AE if they want. That way it is a win-win situation, so newbies are forced to learn the game, and vets who are bored with leveling normally can farm AE.

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errrrr....yikes!

1. Vet badges are not always an accurate indicator of how good a player is. Stereotyping people based on vet badges is a slippery slope.

2. If a paying customer wants to be a complete noob, that's fine. They certainly paid for that right. They'll have to deal with the consequences in game for being a noob, but this should be completely their choice.

3. Forcing other players to play the way you want is just plain.....wrong. Not everyone has the same goals or garner the same enjoyment from various aspects of the game. If a newbie doesn't enjoy "learning the game" outside of AE, then so be it.

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They got suck in the AE loop and found the game boring, and redundant.

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Right.......and the non-AE portions of the game aren't "boring and redundant." I guess repeating ITFs *or insert any other TF basically* over and over again doesn't constitute redundancy.

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I personally would like to get rid of or limit PLing all together.

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PLing serves a very useful purpose to people who choose to. Trying to restrict another paying customer's ability to enjoy the game is not a good idea.

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Also, it'd be great to have servers specifically for people who want to gut the game, read the back stories, do all or any story arc, and basically play the game for what it was intended for.

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I guess we have different views on "what it was intended for." IMO, I would think it is to provide enjoyment to the customers, since well...they're paying. The game elements that produce enjoyment in players changes over time. It's not static, but rather fluid. *IF* the majority of players feel that "read the back stories" no longer provides enjoyment, then that particular game element ceases to be what the game is intended for.

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So the fact that all the content, zones, TF/SF, temp powers, contacts, story arcs, and lore built up over the last 5 years being totally ignored because folks go from 1-50 in the Atlas AE and don't even know how to play thier charcters is ok, and in fact the correct way for this game to be played? ok. sorry I guess I was wrong.

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It's called choice. I hope you're familar with the concept. If a fellow paying customer chooses to play in AE and only AE, it is their choice. If they suck, so be it. That's their choice too. They're enjoying themselves, and that's the most important thing. If them being sucky results in negative consequences (i.e. no one wants them on teams), then it is their choice on how to remedy the situation.

For some reason, you don't seem to grasp the concept that not everyone enjoys the same things as you do.

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I'm sure that this will impact the lowbies' ability to make money, at least until the market re-stabilizes or the devs do something to make salvage drop in AE missions (ha!).

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Technically, salavage do "drop" in AE missions, since people can trade tickets in for all sorts of salvage. Personally, rare salvage from tickets has been extremely helpful, but that's besides the point.

Anyways, the lack of certain salvages in certain ranges are because AE players willingly choose to get recipes from their tickets instead. Theoretically, there would be a price point in which getting salvage from tickets would be more profitable than recipes, but never ever underestimate the laziness (or is it stupidity?) of the playerbase.

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I am part of the group that doesn't want to commit to a SG and prefers to have a few globle friends, and join pugs most the time. THIS is how I've played for over 4 years and AE has ruined that for me. All you folks saying it hasn't ruined anything and people like me need to just join a SG or change the way we play....just don't get it. If the shoe was on the other foot and I was saying you just need to quit your SGs and play all pug teams, I'm sure you folks would quickly understand what I'm trying to say. Just because it hasn't changed your game experience, please don't be so niave as to believe it hasn't drasticly effected others.

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No, what people are telling you is that other players (aka paying customers) are not there to be your teammates or for your enjoyment. They are paying the montly subscription for their own enjoyment first and foremost. Your enjoyment of the game doesn't trump the enjoyment of everyone else's. If other players don't enjoy teaming with you on non-AE content, then that's their choice. That's what they're paying for.

Those who suggest you join an SG or get more global friends are doing so only after people like you have whined about nerfing AE so much. It is only reactionary because people like you would rather everyone else change their playstyle before you change yours. Since you seem to be in the minority, perhaps you should reconsider.

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They are not, however, doing anything to affect the outside world from their virtual battles, they are simply fighting holograms. As this is the case, why should any characters become more "infamous" or "influential" for doing things that don't affect the "real" world of Paragon City/Rogue Isles? Where is the logic, storywise, for characters gaining infamy/influence from their actions in the virtual world of AE?

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Probably because not everyone RPs or *cares* too greatly about every single inconsistency. Storyline isn't always the highest priority for people (i.e. why Michael Bay & Paul Anderson are still employed). Some people place action above comic book thematics. As far as game mechanics go, inf is currency, like coins or gold in every other MMO.

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Fish breathe water. If you suddenly change their previously watery environment to air they didn't put themselves in the position of drowning.

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Fish still breathe oxygen, just like us. I assume you mean they breathe underwater.

Anyways, back on topic....the issue is that you chose to be a fish in the first place, even though the game was geared towards terrestial life (i.e. all that social stuff). Now, it's up to you to speed up your evolutionary process.

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I didn't put myself in this situation. It wasn't I who unleashed AE on the game, after all. But I'm sure I'll adapt, it'll just take time. At this rate, I estimate I should be adapted by early September.

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Well....you kinda did....

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I cannot maintain a vast social network. Nor can I commit myself to supergroup activities.

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I have seen so many people saying "Changing AE will not fix the problem". Well, I think MOST people will agree that AE has caused a fairly LARGE problem.

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You sure it's really "most" people? If the observations are, in fact, true about not being able to find people to do non-AE activities, then it would seem that "most" people wouldn't agree with your statement because "most" people are enjoying the AE in whatever way they see fit to have fun.

IMO, the "problem" I see is a minority of people trying to force others into doing what they want to do at the expense of everyone else's enjoyment of the game.

You should realize that the aggregate playerbase has made their choice. AE is the norm. You have become the outlier.

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I cannot maintain a vast social network. Nor can I commit myself to supergroup activities. Thus, I thrived on PUGs. Until AE came along. Now those seem all too rare.

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It seems like you put yourself in this situation. There are alot of things you "can't" do. Perhaps, you should adapt to the everchanging tastes of the playerbase.

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Just thought I'd comment on a couple things...

Just playing the game to fifty does NOT guarentee you millions of inf.

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Regardless if this statement is true or not, why should leveling a toon to 50 entitle you to millions of inf?

I no longer need these anymore...trade completed in game.

ah ok, that seems like a good idea then. If people would happen to have these recipes from whatever source, I would still offer to pay at the rate as stated in my previous posts.

Numina's Convalescence: Regeneration/Recovery (level 30)
Miracle: Recovery (level 20)
Blessing of the Zephyr: Knockback Protection (4 Points) (level 10)
Blessing of the Zephyr: Run Speed, Jump, Flight Speed, Range (level 17)