firespray
-
Posts
1305 -
Joined
-
Quote:I just want to say that I think it's really great that you're listening to our concerns on this issue.Originally Posted by Synapse
Some very good points have been brought up regarding outside buffs to your recharge affecting your proc chances. While we have considered this, after really taking a look at how this affects a great deal a power, the original proposed changes might be too punitive considering this. I'm going to take a look at some options and I'll get back to you all (hopefully later today.)
TL;DR: I'd like to make the formula less punitive for players with global recharge bonuses and for powers with large area factors.
Synapse -
Quote:This is one of my biggest concerns as well. Especially considering that there is no good way to stop from getting these boosts. Especially on a large team or league when they're flying around so freely.Originally Posted by Vardra
I'd like to clarify: I'm not "scared" by how much this will impact me. I just think it's wrong to make things that were supposed to be buffs (speed boost, etc) reduce the effectiveness of your powers. Again, the issue here isn't the actual exact proc chance numbers, it's the fact that, if you have a full attack chain, you shouldn't get worse performance because someone boosted your recharge.
Take my fire/sr scrapper for example. He has enough recharge to run a gapless chain of GFS/incinerate/cremate. Since the cap on recharge is 500%, no amount of added recharge can let him run a better chain, so any recharge buff is going to actually lower his damage.
Though it seems like positron is seriously considering the idea of a minimum chance to trigger, which should hopefully fix this problem for the most part. -
Quote:It seems to me like this would be a pretty rare problem. There can't be that many attacks that do so little damage (and have such short recharge) that filling them with procs would do significantly more damage than just enhancing them for damage in the first place. Neutrino bolt probably. Maybe flares and some of the other T1 ranged damage powers. And for the most part, you aren't going to be using those powers a ton, since you can do a lot better damage making an attack chain of better powers.Originally Posted by Synapse
That's the current problem with both fixed chance procs and the current implementation of PPMs. You can slot a very fast recharging power with a bunch of fixed chance procs to cause way more damage than is intended.
As far as putting a bunch of procs into a low-recharge power is concerned, this really comes off as a solution in search of a problem. -
Quote:Okay, let me use another example to point out something that I see as a major problem with this. Let's look at a positron's blast IO used in a corruptor's fireball power. Fireball has a base recharge of 16 seconds, a cast time of 1 second, a max of 16 targets, and a radius of 15 feet. I don't know if you use arcanatime for the time to activate, but I'm not going to in these calculations for simplicity's sake. For the PPM versions of the proc, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the area factor, whether it's the radius of an AoE (and if it's radius, how it works for cones), the area of an AoE in square feet, or the max number of targets it can hit. For simplicity's sake here, I'm just going to use the radius of the AoE since the point I'm trying to make will apply regardless.Originally Posted by Synapse
I've read some good points in this thread and I wanted to let you know I am continuing to read all of your comments. I do want to stress that in most cases this change will increase proc chances. I'll give you guys some concrete numbers once I have them, but my internal examples I am using look pretty good.
Before we continue let me explain the math. There seems to be some confusion regarding how Procs Per Minute work. Here's the formula that is currently in game:
If power is a click: (PPM * (Base Recharge Time + Time To Activate)) / (60 * Area Factor)
This basically adds your Recharge Time and the power's Cast Time and Divides them by the 60 times the size of the power's area of effect (if any) and then multiplies it by the power's procs per minute. In short: powers with long recharge times and cast times proc more than powers with low recharge times and cast times. Additionally, powers with large area factors have a reduced chance to proc as well.
If power is not a click: (PPM * Activate Period) / (60 * Area Factor)
This applies to powers like damage toggles and the like.
The proposed change would do the following:
1) Increase the PPM value by 50-75% (So a 4 PPM proc would become 6 or 7 PPM) NOTE: The exact amount is still being figured out.
2) Change the Base Recharge in the formula to your actual power's recharge. This is the part where I think a lot of you are scared. I'll show you an example of how this will actually play out in game later in this post so you can decide how much this will actually impact you.
3) Procs will have a maximum chance to trigger. I'm leaning toward 90%. Someone mentioned a minimum chance to proc. I really like this idea and I am thinking about this value being 10%, but I'll have to test this internally to find out if this breaks anything.
4) All non-PPM enhancements with a chance to trigger less than 100% will use PPMs. (Note: Enhancements like Numina's Convalesence: Regen/Recovery will not be affected by this change as they have 100% chance to trigger).
The current fixed chance Positron's Blast proc has a flat 20% chance to trigger per target. This is by far the most common version of the proc out there I'm sure.
The current PPM version of Positron's blast is set to 3 PPM, which gives fireball a 5.66% chance to hit per target. This is already a major nerf to the normal proc.
With the new proc, we'll have to take recharge into account. Assuming the PPM goes up to 4.5 (a 50% increase as you suggested), we have:
At the base recharge, the chance to trigger is 8.5% per target.
At 100% recharge, the chance to trigger is 4.5% per target.
At 200% recharge, the chance to trigger is 3.2% per target.
At 300% recharge, the chance to trigger is 2.5% per target.
At 400% recharge, the chance to trigger is 2.1% per target.
It just keeps getting worse. By the time you've hit the recharge cap (which isn't all that hard to do on leagues during incarnate trials right now), the chance to trigger is down to 10% of what the fixed chance proc gives. That's a pretty massive nerf.
Were AoE damage procs really so broken that they need to be nerfed that hard?
I do understand why the AoE factor works the way it does for procs that can be slotted in both AoE and ST attacks. But is it really necessary to work that way for damage procs that can only be slotted into AoE powers anyway? At the very least, if you're going to keep the area of effect scaling for AoE damage set procs, the PPM should be increased significantly to make up for it. Otherwise these are going to become almost useless. -
Quote:I don't really agree with that. It would still be beneficial to powers with long recharge times without being harmful to those with short recharge times.Originally Posted by Synapse
There wouldn't be much reason for the PPM system if we did that.
Would you be willing to give any examples of powers that you think abuse the fixed proc chance? Because personally it really doesn't seem to be that big of an issue. Certainly not enough of one to require a change that's got people this riled up.Quote:Originally Posted by Synapse
There are a few powers that can really abuse the fixed proc chance. Part of the reason we implemented PPMs in the first place was to address this issue. -
Quote:Yeah, I didn't see your post before I asked that question. That could work though.Originally Posted by Liquid
That's actually the goal of that formula. The minimum proc chance for purples would be higher using a formula like that, because they have higher PPM values.
I still think the best thing to do would simply be to set the minimum chance to proc at whatever the fixed chance is now. I see no reason to nerf the way procs work in fast recharge powers when it's worked fine for 5 years.
Something else I just thought of too. Is this only going to affect enhancement procs, or will this affect things like the global proc chances from the interface slot? Will those also switch to a PPM mechanic? -
Quote:Any particular reason you're considering this rather than just setting the floor at whatever the fixed proc chance is now?Originally Posted by Synapse
I'm currently considering having a minimum chance to proc of 10-15%, so this particular example might not be as dramatically affected as you mention here.
And will the minimum proc chance for purples be higher, considering that the proc chance on them now is considerably higher than the proc chance on any non-purple procs? -
Quote:I don't really argue with any of this, but I still maintain that procs worked fine. Sure, they could have worked better, but they were quite useful and valuable the way they were. I never really considered it a problem that they favored short recharge powers. I actually thought it was kind of a nice feature, since generally, the shorter the recharge, the less powerful the power is. Procs were most useful to the powers that needed the most help.Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Not really. Legacy Procs favored fast charging powers over slow charging powers. They also favored powers that hit multiple targets or were continuously active in Toggles, Auto Powers, and Rains/Patches.
Also, many procs had effects which were negligible and worse than slotting a SO Damage.
And some procs were thought to be so much da bomb, that they were made unique (like the barely ever procking for a few seconds Build Up Procs) which then destroyed the possibility of six slotting that set -- or any other set with a Build Up proc -- more than once in a build.
There were lots of bad decisions that went into the original Procs design. But they were made at a time the Cryptic hobbled the development team down to the Freem Fifteen, and so, things hastily went out the development cycle door and had no time for revisiting.
Well I certainly wouldn't disagree with this.Quote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
Unfortunately, the same bad decision making process has gone into the new PPMs, though it didn't have to be. The Devs were warned in Beta, but didn't listen.
Again, I don't think that procs were a bad mechanic in the first place. They could have been better, but they weren't bad. And I explained why I like them the way they are.Quote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
So, while I get the drama over the changes to PPMs, what I don't get is any nostalgia for the Legacy Procs since they also have their own set of problems. I think people just got used to the poor mechanics of the old Procs... they shouldn't. Something should be done to make Procs a good mechanic.
I do realize that this isn't coming out for 2 more issues and nothing is set in stone yet, but based on the OP, it sounds like in some circumstances, already existing procs will be nerfed. Calling it a nerf isn't trying to protect a niche, it's calling a spade a spade. And I hardly think you can fault people who leveraged the old proc mechanics when they've existed that way for five years now, and unlike some other similar mechanics (the recent change to HOs for example) we were never told that this was a bug that would eventually be fixed.Quote:Originally Posted by Zombie Man
But folks who leveraged the old bad mechanics or who have leveraged the new bad mechanics are crying 'nerf' to protect their niche, which is not helpful.
Now, I'm not saying the proposed new mechanics for I24 are the right fix; but I am saying I have little regard for those whose arguments are not based in refuting problems of the I24 changes, but who are trying to selfishly protect the bad mechanics they've successfully leveraged for their own gain whether they be the Legacy Procs or the new PPMs. -
I really feel like the whole PPM mechanic was unnecessary from the start. Procs worked fine the way they have for several years.
However, now that we have them, I do think it's important to make sure that ALL of the procs work the same way.
Reading the OP, I have a couple concerns about what's being done.
1. It looks like this is going to screw over high recharge characters some. I'm definitely not happy about that. As many have already suggested, putting a floor on the proc chance of what the regular procs already have would be the easiest solution to this. So the hecatomb proc I have in greater fire sword would have, at minimum, a 33% chance to proc regardless of the recharge of the power.
2. I really have no idea how PPM procs work in AoE powers, since I haven't used them much. The only exception is the brute chance for fury proc that I have in footstomp, and it seems like that thing almost never goes off. So I worry that this is going to be a major nerf to the way procs currently work in AoE powers. Maybe I'm concerned about nothing here, and the other PPM procs work similarly to the way that normal procs do in AoE powers.
As long as those two concerns are addressed, I've got no issues with doing this.
Although I do think that selling people SBEs for real money, then nerfing them is a ****** way to treat your customers. -
Are we talking about something that would make me quit permanently? That would have to be pretty major.
I've quit this game twice so far, and come back both times.
The first time was just after I6 and ED came out. It was too big of a nerf with no hints that we were ever going to get buffs that would help mitigate it. It also didn't help that I had just started my junior year of college and was too busy to play frequently, so it became kind of a waste of money. I was gone for around 2 years I think, and came back after I graduated. At the time I came back I think I11 or I12 had just come out.
The second time I quit was just after the 4 incarnate abilities came out. Since I didn't know how long it would be before they brought out more, I felt like I had to get them RIGHT NAO! to keep from falling behind. And since there were only 2 trials to run at the time, and it seemed like that was all anyone was doing, I got seriously burnt out on the game. I was only gone for 3 or 4 months that time though. -
Converters get you the best bang for your hero merits by far.
One hero merit gets you 10 converters.
Converting PVP IOs can net you 250m-300m profit for each successful conversion. In my experience it takes on average 10-15 converters to go from a cheap PVP IO to one of the three valuable ones.
I suspect converting mez purples to damage purples might be even more lucrative, but I haven't done it since right after converters came out, so I don't know for sure.
This of course assumes that you have the money to buy things to convert (although I think the cheap PVP IOs are still pretty cheap).
If you can't do that, I think random rolls are probably your best bet. -
I've tried PVP a few times over the years, and decided it wasn't for me. The primary reasons are:
1. I don't want to have to learn a whole new game basically. SO many things work differently in PVP that I feel like it's not something I can do casually. I either spend quite a bit of time mastering the different system, or I'm not good enough to enjoy it.
2. I don't like the changes to PVP. My characters that are super-awesome badasses in PVE are considerably less so in PVP, and I don't enjoy that.
3. The amount of immature vitriol spewed by the PVPers. Yes, there is some of this in PVE content as well, but it's much more prevalent in PVP, and I don't particularly enjoy spending my time being insulted by 13 year olds on the internet. -
I've got my staff scrapper up into his mid 20s now, and to me, the set is starting to feel like another dual pistols.
Good concept
Awesome animations
Mediocre performance
It's not bad, it's just not all that good either. I may try re-rolling a staff stalker, since general consensus seems to be that it shines a bit more there. -
There are a LOT of these.
Confront in every scrapper primary gets taken very rarely.
Most controllers skip their single target immobilize.
Most powers that phase things get skipped.
Most AoE sleeps get skipped (the exception being people who almost always solo, and the pulsing sleep in electric control).
A lot of people skip self-rezzes in armor sets.
Past that you start getting into individual powers in sets, and it gets too tedious to write them all down.
Suffice it to say that nearly every set has at least one skippable power. Some sets have more. -
I definitely prefer a desktop for gaming. I have a bigger screen, better speakers, I can build it myself, and I get considerably better performance for the same amount of money.
I do have a netbook for when I'm travelling, but I can't play CoH on it. It's just for surfing the web really. -
Here's the way I feel about it.
Some unexpected downtime is just a fact of life for an MMO. Things go wrong. Servers go down. Bugs make it live and need to be fixed. As long as the unexpected downtime is infrequent and doesn't last too long (and in CoH it qualifies), I have no complaints.
Now if it was something like the servers being unexpectedly down for an entire weekend, then I might be among those asking to get something in compensation.
It wouldn't be until I had lost access to the game for a significant portion of a month (say the servers were down for an entire week) that I would start expecting to be compensated and would consider leaving the game if I wasn't. I think the chances of that happening are pretty small though. -
Was there a change made to how auto-exemping on TFs works?
I seem to remember in the past if I started a TF at less than the maximum level, I would continue leveling, and then when I hit the maximum level, I got auto-exemplared.
Now though, it seems like if I start at less than the maximum level, I can't level up at all.
For example, I just got done running a manticore TF. I was level 33 when I started, and as soon as I hit level 34, I got exemplared to 33, and I stayed at 33 for the whole TF. Is this a bug, or WAI? And if it is WAI, anyone know why it was changed? -
There are only 2 power pools that I take on nearly every character. One is the speed pool, since every character I make has hasten, and super speed is my favorite travel power. The other is the fighting pool, since almost all my characters build for defense in one way or another, and weave helps.
I take leaping the most after those two probably, since I like combat jumping, and a few toons lately have been taking leap attack to give them some extra AoE.
Leadership and flight are probably the next most common.
I almost never use the other power pools. -
Quote:I disagree that SR has become a waste. It's actually still a strong set. It can be softcapped much easier than the other defense sets (with the exception of /EA), giving you more set bonuses to devote to other things. For example /SR is one of the very few defense sets that can be softcapped to everything and still hit perma-hasten without incarnate abilities. And for incarnate stuff, /SR is one of the few sets that has the ability to hit the incarnate softcap to everything by itself.Originally Posted by dugfromthearth
so sets that were perfectly good before (like SR) become a waste.
-
I plan on making a staff fighting toon when it comes out next week. I know some powersets are better on some ATs than on others. KM and StJ are considered really good on stalkers, Electric melee isn't considered quite so good on brutes, etc. Does staff fighting really shine or lag on a particular AT?
-
Blasters need help more than any of the other ATs.
I can't speak for it myself, since I've never played any in incarnate content, but my wife says controllers and doms need help in iTrials. Though to me it seems like it's less a problem with the classes, and more a problem with the fact that so many of the enemies are immune to mez.
That's really it. No one else NEEDS help. -
Quote:Because it gets people to look at the thread. I realize that yes, there is a point to other sets. My actual question was in the OP.Originally Posted by Aneko
Why do people phrase questions this way? The answer is obvious.
Why do so many people look only at the thread title and nothing else? -
Currently I'm playing a fire/time. Dark is one of the secondaries that I definitely want to try, poison is another.
-
I've recently gotten into playing corruptors. There are several secodaries that I still want to try, but every time I make one, I look at the primaries, and want to play fire blast every time. I love it conceptually, and performance wise it seems to outshine the other sets as well.
Do others feel this way, or is it just me? Are there other sets you would encourage me to try out? -
Quote:It's not going to help that much probably. For one, a lot of indoor maps don't allow you the kind of unobstructed line of sight range you'd need for that to matter. And two, it's basically saying "If you want to enjoy these improvements, ignore half the secondary powers that we give you access to", which is poor design IMO.Originally Posted by Gorgar
I wonder if something as simple as increasing the range on blaster attacks would help. It wouldn't do much for blappers, I guess, but I've found my main, an energy blaster with Boost Range on autofire and extra range from Cardiac, is a lot more survivable by being able to fight not only outside the range of melee attacks, but most ranged attacks as well. Mezzers usually die running up to get in range of using their powers.