dave_p

Part of what Doctor_Kumquat said was why many, many of us took TF in the first place: for the guaranteed Mag 4 stun. Now that it's down to Mag 3, i.e. no boss stuns w/o stacking, it's of considerably less use. Seriously, what lt or minion mob do you really need to stun that badly that you're not going to likely kill off w/TF (or EP + BS) anyway? A +4 Sapper?

Packing in much damage in 1 shot vs. 2 does have its utilities. PPs are a prime example, as are fake Nemmies (PFF) and other things you want to take out before they activate their near death powers.

Obitus, you touch on a lot of points that I was actively trying to avoid, not wanting to turn this into another "why blasters?" topic. Still, you echo a lot of my own sentiments.

I'd actually rather solo blasters than defenders--I really hate defenders' kill speeds. As you mention, you have to setup your debuffs (or mag 6 holds!) before your attack chain, and I can IO my blasters to the point where I can easily survive any return alpha, so basically use the "killing is the best form of mitigation" method of survival. They're not scrappers or controllers (nevermind the vil ATs) in terms of solo speed vs. survivability, but they beat defenders in raw, burst damage, and being survivable enough, they also outspeed tanks through most solo content. Of course, not everyone can def-cap their blasters, but as soloing occurs largely in a vacuum, I'm not really worried about how I20 hurts *my* blasters' soloability. TBH, solo Judgment's 90s recharge really does seem a bit long for, say, my defenders. As an aside, on my tanks (brutes/scrappers), I'd prolly use that 90s to drag my aggro limit to another spawn to hit w/a Judgment nuke.

On teams, if you're already getting good debuffing from your teammates as many are asserting in this thread, and assuming you're getting good aggro/crowd control, and your blaster is just allowed to let loose (these seem like rather unfair assumptions that other ATs rarely have to make, but it happens often enough so let's go with them), an AoE blaster's overall damage contributions should still top everyone else including serious outliers like SD/ELM, SS/SD, Fire/Fire scrappers, etc. Of course, those outliers don't exactly need an ideal team situation to always cut loose w/minimal fear of personal safety.

It's also been argued that just as Judgement steps on blasters' toes, other Incarnate slots steps on others' toes as much. IO'ed out melee are already survivable enough and added buffs (including pet buffs) may not really help them all that much, while they give blasters exactly what they need to solo better and contribute more to teams. Of course they also give similar, added benefits to already survivable (but not to melee extremes, though more than blasters in general) defenders and controllers (and corrs, doms, etc), so no net "gain" for the blasters in this line of reasoning either.

So what's the bottom line? There may or may not be a need to visit roles blasters play *right now* before we even get to address Incarnate effects on the AT. However, I see no hint that the devs are looking at this issue, but since I20 is in beta, those powers are "in play" if you will. If nothing changes... well, if you think blasters are already deficient on teams, I20 will make it worse. Even if you think blasters are okay now, it's my opinion that I20 will make you... less.

I'd say controls. We have defender(corr/controller)-like buff/debuffs, MM(controller)-like pets & blaster(corr/defender)-like nukes w/I20. Those buffs also replicate many melee-style protections. Pets might be a controller thing, but their (and Doms') main powers (to be encroached into) are controls, so I figure that's what's coming next, as I see Incarnates as becoming largey AT-free.

4 Trees of control: Holds, Stun, Confuse and... Sleep? Fear? Immob? All w/various debuff side effect, sub-branches.

I think currently, that's the only way to boost Judgement's damage, other than via debuffs (so, basically, Cold/Son defenders ftw, more so than now come I20). Still in beta so subject to change, obv.

Just from what I currently play, and according to the OP's description (i.e. controls & damage aren't "support"):

First tier: Cold, Rad

Second tier: Son, Dark, Kin, TA

Third tier: Therm, Storm

What I actually think *contributes* the most:

First tier: Cold, Rad, Kin, Storm, Dark, Son, TA

Second tier: Therm

Don't currently play Emp or FF, but from my experiences w/them, I'd put them in the 2nd tier for both lists. Yeah, I don't much like Therm.

Musculature is *currently* a poor choice. W/Judgement coming around the corner, an extra 30% or 45% damage for those nukes is sounding mighty tasty (~700 point, 40', 32 target fireballs every 90s? Yes, please). Still, Spritual (for faster & bigger DP, faster Rage & FT, etc) or Cardiac (limitless end, more resists) are both solid choices. Nerve's def bonuses are kinda weak, and Rage will give you all the to hit you'll ever need.

SS >> BA for both ST & AoE damage. By quite a bit, actually. Only Fire beats SS for AoE damage (and ST damage too, but there are other contenders for tanker ST damage king as well).

My Invul/Fire is going for Psi. Currently (and he's still a work in progress), I'm vacillating bet. a couple of configurations. I'm too cheap to buy PvP IOs, but I still get...

All w/1 in range of Invinc:

(1) 43% S/L, 37.7% F/C, 37.1% E/N, 36.1% Psi, 18% Psi resist

Or

(2) 46.4% S/L, 37.7% F/C, 39.6% E/N, 32.4% Psi, 15% Psi resist

I figure, a single small purple and I'm capped everywhere anyway, and it takes very few extra mobs in Invinc to cap S/L either way. No insps or outside buffs, and w/(1), I need 7 mobs in Invinc to cap all; 6 for (2). I'm leaning towards the (1) for the higher Psi def. Oh, 251% regen either way, and of course perma-DP.

Honestly, I'm not a big fan of DB for tanks. Love it on my scrapper, even though it's all lethal and isn't the best ST or AoE (decent for both, though), but I don't know how well the combo system works for tanks, where you're maybe switching up targets a lot more often for punchvoking, working in other powers more like Taunt (which doesn't technically interrupt your combos, but you have to hurry to catch up), etc.

As for how many attacks, if you're satisfied w/just the Attack Vitals combo, you'd still want Blinding Feint & likely Typhoon's for the AoE, so that's 5, which isn't horrible. Unfortunately, Nimble Slice is required, and if you add Taunt, that's 7. Now, Sweep might also be highly desirable for tanks, which adds 2 more, which is... all of them. Which is another reason I don't like DB for tanks, the fact that you're forced to take Nimble Slice, unless you want to settle for the Empower & Weaken combos instead, but most ppl prefer the AV and/or Sweep combos. My scrapper has both, and mostly uses AV, but Sweep is nice when I'm completely surrounded, which as a tank, you're likely to face more often.

If you want high damage, Fire is king. If you want high damage w/mitigation, Mace isn't too bad. Better w/AoE than ST, but not bad w/either. Axe is close to Mace, but not quite as good AoE, maybe better ST damage. Both are available w/SD (another thing you can't do w/DB), which will help your damage output, and fit nicely thematically. Both have BU though.

First off, nice analysis of all the ATs' affected by I20, though I may nitpick with the details. However...