boppaholic
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For instance, say you have a WP tank. They have 21.625% DDR. Say they have 45% defense (softcapped) and they get hit by one 10% defense debuff attack:
Their DDR resists that debuff so that it takes 10*(1-0.21625)= 7.8375%
The WP's defense is now 37.1625%. Before the enemy had a 5% chance to hit you, now it more than doubled to 12.8375%. This is how cascading defense can ultimately melt a defense oriented tank.
With a shield that has about 85% DDR, that same debuff would only be 1.5%. This tanks new defense would be 43.5% and the enemy's chance to hit is 6.5%.
So for two softcapped tanks, this one debuff made the WP tanker almost twice as likely to hit as the shield tank because of the effects of DDR. Some like to aim for defenses around 50-60% to deal with cascading defense debuffs. By having the extra padding the effects of the debuff can wear off before the cascade can begin to happen. This makes SR more desirable as it can easily clear softcap and can provide plenty of padding. Add that with its capped DDR (90% or 95% IIRC) makes its only real worries the auto-hits, enemy tohit buffs and spike damage. -
Quote:Originally Posted by mauk2
Easily addressed by giving the powers no animation, and requiring no animation time. Press button, you are now either Guarded in your fighting or in Onslaught mode.
Hmmm. No, not really. Incarnate powers never address the caps. I specifically used the global enhancement mechanic to avoid disturbing inter-set balance. I strongly suspect Incarnate powers were designed the same way, for the same reason. It's like convergent evolution.
Similar goals in a similar environment lead to similar solutions.
But this would allow Tankers, with effort, to considerably expand their performance envelopes.
If you want a full-time high damage tanker, you build for global recharge and get Battle Mastery permanent: You then gain considerably more damage potential at the expense of a button-click every thirty-ish seconds and a hefty mitigation hit. (VERY hefty for toons near the caps.) The demands attention, which the Dev's have used as a design balance point for years. This seems fair to me.
If you want a max-defense tanker, you again work to get Battle Mastery permanent. (That's why I'd argue for the 90 second recharge, it's still up a good portion of the time even on non-recharge-heavy builds like a Granited Stone.)
Now, you have the security of knowing that you can out-draw anybody with a click of the Taunt button, you can occupy twice as many foes as before, and you have a lot more security in doing so, knowing that the fears/confuses/placates, etc, are not going to do nearly as much to you.
Oh, I forgot one boost that Guarded should add: plus 500 feet perception radius.
Again, you pay for this added troller-osity with a button click and a hefty reduction in your damage output. Even better, this demands attention, which is a balance point the Dev's have used for years. Seems fair.
A real nice feature of this notion is when you 'play against your strengths.' A super-heavy tanker build (like my beloved Inv/Ax) can mash on the onslaught button like mad in situations where my toughness isn't needed and add a lot more damage output to the team. Not Brute levels by any stretch, but a lot better than a tough-specced Tanker usually gets, as long as I remember to keep activating the magic button.
A high-damage tank build (like my equally beloved Fire/Fire builds), can play against type by mashing the Guarded button like a wired-up lab rat when the team is expecting me to play waaaay over my head. Thus I can fulfill the expected role of Main Tank even if my build was really aimed at mass agriculture.
I think it's flexible and potent, but balanced in that it requires the player to actively sit up and MAKE it work for them. No freebies here. The performance envelope is expanded only in the directions of more damage and more aggro control/status soaking, which are probably the most innocuous ways to boost the AT's performance in ways that are pleasing to the most people.
And if you don't like it, the button mashing is purely optional.
I think my biggest problem with this idea is that you're turning the tank into a god mode scrapper whenever you want. If you want to do scrapper damage, be a scrapper. If you want o be able to take a beating while afk, be a tank. This idea is too extreme and takes away from the simplicity of how we should view our heroes. Tanks are brick walls you can stand behind. Scrappers are offensive artists who can knock anyone out. Each have their flaws that you have to accept. Don't make an inherent power that allows you to toggle between different ATs whenever your flaws become an issue. You might as well make a kheldian and toggle between hover blaster and stone tank. :-P -
Quote:Good point. I didn't know taunt duration applies in some overall taunt formula for determining who the enemy will attack. I thought it was just the magnitude applied by a player, who ever applies the most taunt magnitude gets the enemy's next attack. Damage playing a part too obviously as blasters would get more attention than defenders. Perhaps mag and damage should play the effect of determining who the enemy attacks, having the taunt effects stack (so longer taunt auras last longer for stacking but doesn't affect the magnitude of the taunts). I figure something like this:Originally Posted by Liquid
Two reasons.
First, a Scrapper with AAO or Invincibility can pull aggro off of you because Taunt Magnitude actually isn't what is used to determine who has aggro (Magnitude just determines if it's taunted at all)-- it's Taunt Duration times damage times threat (that's a very crude representation, but we were never given the exact formula, just that) that determines that. Taunt enhancements will not increase the duration (they don't increase Magnitude, not that we need it) enough to surpass them, as Scrapper AAO and Invincibility have 17 second Taunt durations.
Second, if you are facing higher level foes, the duration is lowered, and WP and SR end up with short gaps in aggro where foes will attack other players. Yes, they can slot Taunt enhancements to increase their duration to make up for it, but no other set has to do that.
Taunt = [.5*(1+taunt_mag)+.5*(1+damage/base_damage)]*(1+taunt_duration)
This is fundamentally the idea, not necessarily the correct weighting or approach. I just think a tank should get the most attention, so a higher magnitude taunt. And the magnitude of the taunt should play a multiplicative effect in determining who the enemy attacks. -
Quote:Pick up tactics. Is a pretty easy method for covering up your confuse/fear hole. Some sets have kb holes. They have to get acrobatics or special IOs. The fear and confuse holes should stay since it's easy enough to fix. Stuns or holds would be another story.Originally Posted by Caulderone
This! Very much this for me! The glaring Fear and Confuse hole for most sets is massively annoying. My main is Elec.Armor and it drives me to frustration at times.
The new "Awakened" mobs in First Ward are a very recent reminder of this.
Tweaking this would be first on my personal preference chart. -
Quote:Wouldn't clicky inherent powers just make tanks hate redraw more than they already do? I can understand it for dominators but I would prefer not cluttering up my attack trays more than I already have. Plus this suggestion feels a bit like accolade powers to me.Originally Posted by mauk2
I like this idea, and have often pondered a way to make tanks more versatile.
How about this expansion upon that thinking:
Tankers gain a new inherent called "Battle Mastery". The reasoning is, Tankers are undeniably the AT most comfortable in a fight, and that familiarity with conflict lets them alter how they fight to match the situation they find themselves in.
Battle Mastery gives them two click powers, (they could unlock at level 20-ish, maybe?). One of these is called Onslaught, the other called Guarded. These two powers are mutually exclusive and share a recharge interval. Uptime/downtime ratios to be decided, but I'd vote for 30 seconds up, 90 second recharge, unslottable but affected by Incarnate and global recharge.
Clicking Onslaught raises the damage cap by 100 percent, adds a 50 percent global damage enhancement boost, a 50 percent global recharge enhancement, and 50 percent global endurance enhancement reduction. It also lowers all defense and resist powers by a global 30 percent enhancement penalty. When required, the Tanker can attack with greatly improved strength by throwing caution to the winds. (Note, as global enhancement boosts, these are unaffected by ED.)
Clicking Guarded lowers the damage cap by 100 percent and lowers damage by a global 50 percent. It raises the Tankers Threat rating to 5, increases taunt durations by a global 100 percent, adds a global 50 percent enhancement to all defense and resist powers, doubles the Tankers aggro cap, and adds a mag 6 global status effect defense. When required, the Tanker can use their 'battle smarts' to overawe, out-maneuver, and confound the enemies advances.
Voila. Now Tankers have a unique play mechanic, are more active to play (if you choose to use the inherent), their damage is allowed to spike substantially when required, and they can readily 'mop up' a nasty team wipe in mid-event and hopefully save some people from defeat. If you don't like these notions, take the buttons off your tray and Tankers are unchanged from how they play right now. All design decisions and balance levels between sets are preserved: The psi hole, for example, will remain unaffected, so sets balanced around that vulnerability are not changed.
What do people thinks? Complicated, a bit, but it'd be a welcome addition to an AT that's a bit...stodgy.
I like where the system stands now. I think bruising has made a good splash for dealing with single hard targets. I do believe a tank should have a higher mag taunt than a brute though. I also like the idea of a small increase to agro cap, 20 is good. To even out the damage output a bit, I would like to see a small increase to the cap (425-450%) or a very slight increase to their base damage modifier. -
Quote:Why does SR and WP have a bad rap for their taunt aura? According to city of data, SR's taunt aura activates every 0.5 seconds and supplies a 1 second STACKABLE taunt. Effectively making it a mag 8 taunt aura. Sure if you jump away they won't follow but while you're standing in a mob you will only have the enemy's attention.Originally Posted by Aramar
Hence why I would like it re-visited. If taunt duration designs are open to revisit, it would be nice for a at least a pass back through the original sets for strange things like this.
I don't expect all the old sets to be completely comprehensive, but some stuff was just silly even when it was launching (thinking back to some explanations BaBs offered of why Shield's protections were so complete).
WP is similar. It has a paltry mag 3 taunt that lasts for 1.25 seconds and activates every 1 second. But it too is stackable. Put a couple of taunt IOs into it (or Resilient core alpha since WP doesn't have endurance issues, but has taunt issues, plus higher resistance boost). Your taunt aura would become a mag 6, making it stronger than any other set other than SR.
I don't think you need standardization. It just makes the game more vanilla. Use taunt for herding, then enjoy your higher mag taunt aura while you stand strong in the crowd. -
I don't know enough about the resistance of SR other than toxic and psionics aren't resisted IIRC. SR is easier to softcap positionally (but both can be softcapped easily with IOs) and SR will easily cap on DDR whereas Shield will have to stretch to max on DDR, but my build gets to ~85%. Also, SR has a movement and recharge bonus.
Shield offers you +damage, debuffs damage (which is like adding resistance to everything), has some resistance to all but psionics, increase to max hp (which is like adding more resistance to everything), and a nice AoE attack.
Also Shield has a soft crashing god mode power which can be up 33% of the time IIRC. It can cap your S/L resistance, get your E/N/F/C/T resistance to about 45% and can cap your HP. Also you get a recovery boost IIRC.
IMO, Shield is better for a tanker. Softcapping positionally is harder for a scrapper or brute, so SR could make more sense for them. I suppose SR could attempt to go over softcap to pad for defense debuffs and tohit buffs, but I would rather just have more HP and the other cool things Shield offers.
The biggest issue for shield is the limited use of some two-handed primaries. Otherwise, I looked at the numbers and I think that shield should be mentioned as one of the top defense sets along with WP and Invulnerability. -
Survivability for a blaster will be tough for a lowbie toon. Once you are able to invest IOs into ut, you'll start seeing better results... so be patient and invest.
For general survivability, might I recommend dark blast. You have a fast recharging self heal attack, tohit debuffs, and cone mitigation (kb and immobilize). Try it out and see if you like it. The ST hold attack hits hard too. Just a thought.
I'm working on a dark/NRG for the power boost and boost range deliciousness. But I hear dark/ice is a nice combo (see shiver) -
I have been thinking of doing a new toon myself lately. I was thinking dark/psi (3 cone attacks by lvl 12) or dark/ice (more survivability).
If you're only considering those two options, do fire/mm. Dark/fire I have my doubts in terms of synergy.
I'm liking dark/psi and dark/ice because of the cone chains you can put together. Umbra Torrent -> tentacles -> shiver/psy scream.
You knock them on their butts, delaying alpha strike, while debuffing them.
You immobilize them so they stay away from you while further debuffing you.
They now attack you while being debuffed by 10.5-16% Likely missing mostly.
You lower their recharge so they can attack you as often (after they use up their range attacks)
Repeat process.
I worry about the scatter, but for the most part you gotta like the AoE chain that keeps you safe. Umbral Torrent's 80 ft range is gorgeous. Its fast cast time and quick recharge is very nice. Plus you get mitigation with kb and survivability with tohit debuffs. I'm loving dark lately because of this power (life drain too, no more need for aid self), but fire doesn't seem like the right secondary. It wants to be in pbaoe while dark wants to be at range with its cones.
Secondaries I like with dark blast: energy (boost range and power boost), mental, ice, devices -
Quote:I didn't recommend fire/cold corruptor so you would be a buffer/healer. You would be a debuffer. Likely killing mobs faster than you would as a blaster while having more survivability. Don't take the shields if you don't want them. To me they are lotg mules. Look at the powers you want from cold domination and then look at any blaster secondaries. You would like what cold had to offer more. Don't like cold? Storm, dark, and sonic are good debuff sets too. For the playstyle you described, you should be fire/cold corruptor. Or be a control based toonOriginally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have issues. I have always hated corruptors, and wanted a Blaster redside (I only played redside for 3+ years) I have only come Blueside for 2 main reasons. I migrated from Freedom to Virtue, ans in my experience redside virtue is much less played than redside freedom. this may part of the whole change in the game however, ot just related to any one server. Also, villains are now crawling over blueside. I would rather have the (sliht) damage boost from being a Blaster than all corruptors powers. and I hate buffing/healing others. its selfish, and I know it, and i hate it. And I fail more miserably at it than I do at being a blaster. So, i tank on my Brute mostly. I'll eat agro for an entire team before I buff anyone. Or, with my Blaster project, throw out pain to cover any 2 other members rather than try to buff/heal.
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Quote:If you're only looking to play as team support, you should make a corruptor or defender. You'll likely offer much more in terms of support and DPS that way. I recommend a fire/cold corruptor. With a high end build you could triple stack sleet's effects. Perma benumb/heat loss is absolutely sexy. And you'll still be a beast at single target and AoE damage (double scourge for sleet and rain of fire iirc).Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Yeah, thanks to my wife for ideas lol. I am making a character based on a very convoluted bloodline that has been part of her meta plot for many years. Both fire and psi are natural for the concept. I will probably take fire epic, or I may snag soul mastery, havent looked at it in detail yet. Also, 95% sure going for Fire judgement, but agian, need to look. The whole idea is to cram more AoE on the guy. I want teams to beg to rez me when I fall lol. "Get the damage pet back up!"
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Quote:What build/level was it that you struggled at +0/x1? This can't be the ice/NRG that you leveled to atleast 33 and claimed how much you were loving it, is it?Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
You are right, I am limiting my choices. I really actually love the mechanics of both AR and BR. But I just dont see Magneto with a Gat. If they would alter the animations for AR or BR to be "standarad blaster animations" I would take either in an instant, I love them both.
That still leaves the secondaries as a heaving mosh pit of Blapper love. Not sure what to do about that easily.
Lastly, and i hate to admit this, I was struggling with +0/x1. And for the Banks (badging) was even struggling at -1/x1. And my build had hover, stealth, and invisibility. Okay, I'm gonna shut up now. Sigh.
I still think you should've tried dark/NRG. But I think your problem might be that you're impatient on its performance. You won't have survivability until you IO out for defense. And you won't have gnarly kill speed until you IO out for recharge. -
For fun, I thought I'd share my main tank. He is a Shield/SS/Soul. He is incarnated out (I only activated the Cardiac Core to show the main numbers, Destiny and Interface mess things up too much).
His perks:
He is soft-capped positionally. 34.7% Psi Defense.
He is HP capped when OwtS is up. He has 2894 HP (154.5%) when it's not up.
Not including OwtS, he has 49% S/L Resistance. 30% F/C Resistance. 25% E/N/T Resistance. 12% Psi Resistance.
With OwtS, he has 90% S/L Resistance. 54% F/C Resistance. 49% E/N/T Resistance. And still 12% Psi Resistance.
For debuffs:
With Darkest Night running and if Dark Obliteration (I treat as a perma AoE debuff) hits:
23.5% To Hit Debuffs and 21% Damage Debuffs.
My endurance recovery with toggles on is 2.21 end/sec. Plus 1 Performance Shifter Proc in there. I would like a little more, considerring rage and hasten crashes.. but I make due with the occasional blue or just slow down on my attacks.
Lastly, it's not perma-hasten/pet... but it's close. They both have about a 10 second down time. However, with FF proc in Footstomp, they will be occasionally perma.
For incarnates, I go with Cardiac Core, Rebirth Radial or Ageless Core (when I can focus less on surviving and more on killing), Reactive Radial (for killing) or Paralytic Radial (for surviving), and Void Radial. For Lore, I have Warworks because the options used to be very limited, but I may switch to Cimeroans in the future.
I'm not perfect, so please I welcome constructive criticism
Here's the build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(5), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(7)
Level 1: Jab -- Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 2: True Grit -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(7), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(9), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), Heal-I(11), Heal-I(11)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Hectmb-Dam%(A), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(17), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(17), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(19), Mako-Dam%(21)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(21)
Level 8: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 10: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(25), Mocking-Acc/Rchg(27), Mocking-Taunt/Rng(27), Mocking-Rchg(29)
Level 12: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 14: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 16: Kick -- Dmg-I(A)
Level 18: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(31), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), GA-3defTpProc(31)
Level 20: Knockout Blow -- C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(33), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(34)
Level 22: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(34), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(36)
Level 24: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(36)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 28: Rage -- HO:Membr(A)
Level 30: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 32: One with the Shield -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(34), ImpArm-ResDam(39), Heal-I(39), Heal-I(50)
Level 35: Gloom -- Apoc-Dam%(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(39), Apoc-Dmg(40), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(40), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(40), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 38: Foot Stomp -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(43), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(43), FrcFbk-Rechg%(43)
Level 41: Darkest Night -- DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(45), DarkWD-ToHitDeb(45), DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(45)
Level 44: Dark Obliteration -- DarkWD-Rchg/EndRdx(A), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/EndRdx(46), DarkWD-ToHitdeb/Rchg/EndRdx(46), DarkWD-ToHitDeb/Rchg(46)
Level 47: Summon Widow -- S'bndAl-Build%(A), S'bndAl-Dmg/EndRdx(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), S'bndAl-Dmg/Rchg(50), S'bndAl-Dmg(50)
Level 49: Grant Cover -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(13)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(15), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(15)
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Quote:Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
Shield's good but it isn't in the same league as Invuln. I have both at 50 with pretty maxed builds and while Shield is certainly up to the job there's just no comparison in overall durability... Invuln takes without strain stuff that makes Shield grab for the candy or hope for team buffs to survive.
The one corner case where Shield has an advantage is vs Psi that has a positional tag (remember, not all Psi attacks have a position and will bypass Shield defenses). In all other situations the Invuln has a pronounced advantage.
Remember Invuln can also put up soft capped defense numbers AND it has considerable resistance backing it up along with a massive heal/+HP power in Dull Pain. Defense WILL fail on you and the bad guys WILL get massive attacks through your defenses. Where Shield falls short is lower resistance and no heal power to fall back on when defense fails.
Nothing can die faster than a defense tanker with a run of bad luck; you'll either be full health or dead before you can react. Invuln has those resistances to blunt damage that breaks defense and Dull Pain to recover quickly.
Those are great points. If I had to really decide, I would probably say that a top-end invuln would still beat out a shield. They do have a heal, they have perma-HP cap, they have capped S/L resistance. And 5% more base resistance to F/C/E/N/T. When IO'd, an invuln can expect about 31% resistance to F/C/E/N/T and a shield can expect 23.25%. Now with AAO up (and enemies are within its radius), all enemies (including Psi) get a 7% debuff. So shield now has about a 30.25% effective damage resistance. So it turns out, it actually is very close to invulnerability, wouldn't you say?
Now, 40% of the time, a Shield can have their T9 activated (I'm not afraid of it's softcrash). So for 40% of the time, the shield will be HP-capped and will double its base F/C/E/N/T resistance (S/L will now be capped) so that it's effective resistance is 53.5% when you include AAO. So on average a shield tank will have 0.4*53.5% + 0.6* 30.25% = 39.55% resistance compared to Invuln's 31% for F/C/E/N/T. For S/L the shield will average about 0.4*90% + 0.6*53.5 = 68.1% S/L resistance (assuming it has tough). Still doesn't compete with Invuln's always capped S/L resistance, but it hangs tough.
Now I do understand that invulnerability's T9 will hard-cap S/L/F/C/E/N/T resistances for 180 seconds and will likely only have a down time of about 90-120 seconds on a high end build. But its crash is rather deadly... unless you run away (not a tank's proudest moment lol) or have great team buffs (in which case you would never need to use your T9, Shield or Invuln).
When I think of Shield vs. Invuln in these terms for survivability I really do think Shield is close but falls short (IMHO, I rank it as Invuln/Shield/WP/Dark in that order for survivability, excluding granite armor). Invuln's self heal and perma-HP cap is the tie breaker in my opinion... otherwise, I think Shield stays on par as they both are softcapped defensively (Shield can cap DDR whereas Invuln is 50%) and other than S/L, shield's effective resistance is about the same with Invuln.
Right now I'm working on an Invuln/MA tank. Level 28 so far, but I already am greatly enjoying the survivability. When I IO him out at 50, I'll see how I like it compared to my Shd/SS tank. -
I don't recall seeing it mentioned, but I think shield is on par with invuln and wp (dark too, but because it can't cap HP I will exclude it from the argument for now). Shield can cap its HP when its soft-crashing T9 is up. It has the strongest DDR between it, invuln and wp (shd/invuln/wp in that order). And its defenses are capped positionally. So when it comes to psionics, I rank it as wp/shd/invuln. I don't know, I need to fawn over the numbers more, but I think shield is extremely survivable. Perhaps there's some sort of numerical analsys scoring system that can be done to determine which set out performs the rest?
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Quote:Try not to get too concerned over a mids build's order of selected powers. You can pick the powers in any order that you desire as soon as they become available. I knew what powers I wanted most and went with order of importance, to some degree.Originally Posted by Erratic
Having a KM/Shield Scrapper, I will note that Power Siphon and Against All Odds are powers where you want things near you. If the goal of a tank/mage is to be good at both range and in melee, well, you have the melee down with KM/Shield and I suppose it would not be unreasonable to bolt on ranged attacks. . .but your melee attacks are so powerful that I have to wonder just how functional your ranged attacks will be by comparison (note, not damaging, but functional--able to stand at range and meaningfully contribute).
A few things that catch my eye when looking at boppaholic's build below:
(1) The character seems to lack in the way of attacks until the mid 20s in level.
(2) Shouldn't Against All Odds be taken sooner? Sure, the characters is designed to deal damage at range, but it is a defensive character and should be able to survive being close. Having enemies close drives Against All Odds.
(3) A scrapper would deal more damage wouldn't it? Sure, they are less hardy than tanks but they can be built to hold up very well.
If the OP is not totally burnt out on trying Blasters, I will note that I have generally not enjoyed Blasters and given up on quite a few of them in my time playing, but I finally have one that was (a) enjoyable out of the gate and (b) gives that something to fill in that I was looking for beyond just blasting--an element of control, and (c) is almost abusively silly in dealing with spawns once you pick up the right powers. Sonic Blast/Dark Manipulation has been a lot of fun and fairly survivable. Sure, you're going to die some, but that happens with all characters.
Of course if you really want the ranged character that can stand toe to toe with mobs and ignore them, Defenders and Corruptors leap to mind. Time Manipulation's Farsight backed by Power Build Up is the new abuse I'm working towards on my Corruptor.
You're right about limited attacks though. But I'm not the one who is wanting to make a melee character with predominantly ranged attacks. I wouldn't make one, but it was a fun exercise to see what could be done.
A scrapper would be more damaging. But the OP wants survivability and so I recommended the best option. To me, if he wants to make a scrapper with ranged attacks, he might as well design a blaster with good survivability. You can get a few decent shields from the epics (Force Mastery comes to mind). But say he goes with a scrapper, he would need to invest way more into survivability than he would with a tank. I didn't have to invest all that much with my build (I invested in recharge and damage mainly) -
Quote:Fire Melee doesn't have to be the top DPS because of a lack of mitigation. Stone Melee MAY (I don't know the numbers for all) be the top DPS. It has mitigation. But it's very endurance heavy and is smashing damage. Fire Melee isn't as endurance heavy and it is the more exotic fire damage. In the end, I think things are balanced, as the "powers team" intended.Originally Posted by JayboH
See, this introduces a possible problem. If Fiery Melee doesn't do more damage in general than the other primaries, we may need to hit up the powers team for possible buffs/nerfs, simply because of the lack of any mitigation in that set.
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Here is the high end build I created.
I focused on making him as survivable for all content in the game, so I went with Impervium Armor for my resistance IOs because it gave me Psionic Defense and Resistance (The main hole for a shield).
I went with Cardiac Core T4 because of the same reasons I mentioned above, but with emphasis on giving you more range. 40 feet away doesn't feel much like a range attack, so now all your attacks are at least 50 foot range.
Perks of the build:
Nearly perma hasten - ~2-4 seconds down time. Not bad
Softcapped positional defenses - ~46% defense to Melee, Range, and AoE
Psionic Defense is 30%, which is nice for the occasional pure psi attack (non-positional)
Double Stack Active defense for a total DDR of: 87%
Over 50% resistance to S/L, 38% for F/C, 28% for E/N/T, 15% Psi
2800 Hit Points. Regenerating 30 HP/sec.
Recover 2.14 Endurance/Second with ALL toggles on.
When One with the Shield is up,
You have 90% S/L, 63% F/C, 53% E/N/T, and 15% Psi.
3490 Hit Points (Nearly capped). Regenerating 37 HP/sec.
Recover 2.75 Endurance/Second with ALL toggles on
You have the following range attacks (You probably don't even need this many attacks):
Repulsing Torrent - 4.1 second recharge (Cone)
Focused Burst - 2.42 second recharge
Mu Lightning - 2.52 second recharge
Electrifying Fences - 6.8 second recharge (AoE, immob, -KB)
Ball Lightning - 8.95 second recharge (AoE)
Static Discharge - 8.16 second recharge (Cone)
Flaws to the build:
Very Expensive. You don't necessarily need the +3 resistance gladiator proc. It's a nice to have, but easily substituted. Trade is for a +6% To Hit Kismit proc instead if you like.
In total, there are 2 PvP procs, 5 LotG + Recharges, 2 Purple Sets, etc. This is very high end. The character doesn't have to be though. Go with the Agility Alpha instead for more Endmod/Recharge/Defense. You'll probably prefer that alpha anyways. I just went with Cardiac for the range and the extra resistance while I high-end build for everything else.
Anyways, here it is
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.952
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Kinetic Melee
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mu Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(3), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(5), DefBuff-I(5), DefBuff-I(7)
Level 1: Quick Strike -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(7), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(9)
Level 4: True Grit -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(13), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(15), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(15), Heal-I(17), Heal-I(17)
Level 6: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(19)
Level 8: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 10: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(19), LkGmblr-Def(23)
Level 12: Phalanx Fighting -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(21), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(21), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(25)
Level 16: Repulsing Torrent -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(25), Posi-Dmg/Rng(27), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(27), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(29)
Level 18: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(31)
Level 20: Tactics -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(A), Rec'dRet-ToHit(31)
Level 22: Grant Cover -- SW-ResDam/Re TP(A)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(46), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- Oblit-%Dam(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(33)
Level 28: Burst -- Armgdn-Dam%(A), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx(34), Armgdn-Acc/Rchg(34), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 30: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(36)
Level 32: One with the Shield -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(36), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(37), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(37), Heal-I(37), Heal-I(39)
Level 35: Focused Burst -- Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(39), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(39), Decim-Dmg/EndRdx(40), Decim-Acc/Dmg(40)
Level 38: Electrifying Fences -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), Posi-Dmg/Rng(42), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(42), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(42)
Level 41: Ball Lightning -- Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg(A), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg(43), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx(43), Ragnrk-Knock%(45)
Level 44: Static Discharge -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(45), Posi-Dmg/Rng(45), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(46), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(46)
Level 47: Mu Lightning -- Apoc-Dmg(A), Apoc-Dmg/Rchg(48), Apoc-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), Apoc-Acc/Rchg(48), Apoc-Dmg/EndRdx(50), Apoc-Dam%(50)
Level 49: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon
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Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(9), Numna-Heal/EndRdx(11)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(11), P'Shift-End%(13)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
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Quote:Originally Posted by boppaholic
Why are SoAs not fitting concept? Your only concept is staying far away and surviving? Go claws/*/blaze scrapper.
I change my answer, I forgot about Kinetic Melee. Go with a Shield/KM/Mu Tank for most range attacks, and highest survivability. I don't see the point of going with a brute if you're going to only try to build fury from a distance, but do what works for ya. But with a tank you will have higher resistances, higher base HP, and easier time softcapping your positional defenses.
I like Shield because you can softcap easily, get shield charge (another ranged attack, just jump away when you knock them on their ***), and you get a T9 that is a soft crash (One with the Shield can cap your HP and provide great resistances when you need it most).
Plus, the -damage from KM works nicely for defensive sets.
Mu is great for the reasons mentioned earlier. 4 ranged attacks, 3 of which are AoEs. Plus you get a ranged AoE Immobilize that prevents knock back, making Repulsing Torrent nicer to use.
When you get to incarnates, I would probably go with Cardiac for the endurance reduction, resistance boost, and range boost. All of these will help this character.
I'll throw a quick build together in mids and show you what you will have in terms of survivability. -
Why are SoAs not fitting concept? Your only concept is staying far away and surviving? Go claws/*/blaze scrapper.
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Don't forget to factor in the -res from rib cracker when you're doing SJ's numbers. The -res debuff is applied after you calculate your DPS. Let's say you had a DPS of 200 damage per second, the -7.5% debuff would make your actual DPS 200*1.075 = 215 DPS. Also, the Achilles proc is worth considering in the calculations too (Katana, especially)
I did a lot of numbers on tanks in a thread I have going in the tanker forum, so I am experienced with doing these calculations, but not so much for brutes. What I did find for a tank was that Stone Melee provided really impressive numbers. I don't know if you're willing to go with that set but Stone Fist, Heavy Mallet and Seismic Smash provide very good DPA and can take a lot of damage procs for additional DPA. Just a thought, but with reactive and musculature and bruising, a tanker can get about 250 DPS on a high end build using SF-HM-SF-Gloom-SF-SS as an attack chain. I'm curious to know what a brute could do.
If you would like to see the numbers for Stone Melee that I did on a tank, here is the post.
Edit: To add, Stone Melee is extremely endurance un-friendly. I recommend Electric Armor for Stone Melee Brutes/Tanks as it will give you plenty of endurance (Energize and Power Sink) plus the damage aura will only add to your DPS. The Lightning Reflexes is gravy as well. Energy Aura would take care of the endurance issues too, but you'll have no damage aura. -
I looked at the numbers on city of data and I noticed a big difference between the scrapper and brute version (damage scales, recharge times, etc.). So from people's experience, which version plays the best? Looks like the brute version has the higher damage scale, especially with Spin, but scrapper has a much shorter recharge. Also, what are some of their best DPS attack chains?
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I think you'll see a lot of TW/Fire Scrappers as Farmers. TW is the Super Strength that Scrappers always craved. I could be wrong though, I don't know how the redraw will be affected by clicky Fire.
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Awesome...
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Is Power Surge worth getting on a scrapper? I realized that without the brute/tank taunt I will always have someone at range trying to hit me. Once my EM Pulse goes off, it will miss a range person and they will pop me dead. Should I just go with something else, or use it as an oh **** button and run away when trouble comes?