baron_inferno
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Posts
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Joined
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I forgot about Spines. Even so, I personally don't think spines is quite on par with DB and ELM when it comes to AoE capability. ELM is pretty self explanatory as it retains all of the AoE powers in the brute version. Essentially it's really down to the comparison between DB and Spines.
Spines basically has two 90 degree cones with high/moderate damage and a really horrible PBAoE due to ridiculously long animation (3 seconds), high end cost (15.2) and semi high recharge time (15 seconds). All of that for moderate damage. The 15 feet area of effect is a plus but is it really enough to make up for all of that? I have a Thorny Assault Dom that skipped Thorn Burst and if I had a Spines stalker, I would skip it too.
DB in the mean time also has two 90 degree cones both with superior damage, a large radius PBAoE combo (sweep) and a cone DoT combo (attack vitals). With that in mind, as an addendum to my original assertion, I still believe that both ELM and DB are the top AoE sets for stalkers except now we have spines following close behind. -
Stalkers were never meant to be AoE machines in the first place. In fact, of all the stalker power sets, DB and ELM are the only two that can be considered as remotely competent in that area. Stalker is the wrong choice from someone who wants to play a melee AT with good AoEs. Needless to say, using that particular criteria to measure stalker primary sets is inaccurate at best.
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I have 7 brutes and I've only taken taunt with my /Stone brute since well, he attacks slower than the others thus not as reliable when it comes to using damage to hold aggro. Without it, I did sometimes find myself at the mercy of other brutes in the group as they use taunt to take aggro from me. However with the introduction of ninja run as an alternative travel power, I've gone back and dumped all my normal travel powers and picked up taunt. I feel it is a worthwhile investment due to the fact that 99% of the time, you won't be the only brute in a team.
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The level 50 brutes I have are Fire/Dark, Stone/Stone, WM/Shield, SS/SR, and ELM/ELA and I would have to recommend War Maul/Shield. It is pure AoE carnage with tons of smashie sound effects to boot. Very brutish. Survivability is not quite as good as WP, Stone, or SR (though not that far off either) but with that much knockdown mitigation, you don't need to really be a *tanking* brute.
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Eh, I have both a 50 FM and ELM brutes (both 1+ billion inf builds) and I personally prefer FM more if you're talking about raw AoE damage potential. On paper ELM is an AoE machine (which is why I chose it to be my 2nd brute in the first place) but I am only moderately satisfied with its AoE performance. When it comes to AoE capability, it's not necessarily always about how many AoE attacks a powerset has but the recharge time for it's bread and butter attack. It's the same logic which made people dub SS the AoE king prior to the arrival of Claws. Lightning Rod is a beast of an AoE attack for sure but with about 35-40% global recharge, you can put out 2-3 Fire Sword Circles in that 30 or so seconds it takes LR to recharge. That equals significantly more damage in favor of FM, especially when you're at the damage cap. Let's not also forget that Fire is one of the least resisted brute damage types in the entire game.
Now don't get me wrong, ELM is still a very capable AoE set with good mitigation (the one major advantage it has over FM if your secondary is a bit squishy). Still, in terms of actual in-game AoE performance, I would only rank it 4th best after Claws, SS, and FM, followed closely by War Mace. And yes, I have level 50 brutes with all but one of those primaries as well (Claws at level 26 right now). -
Quote:Yep, I would venture to guess that he has not. The new WM is an AoE (and KD mitigation) beast for brutes, assuming the player know how to aim the arc/cones (which isn't all that hard).Originally Posted by LostHalo
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Quote:A war waged on false terms is an unjust and unnecessary war. Farming itself isn't an exploit. There are no rules against repeating a particular piece of content for the purpose of reward. The whole point of MMOs is to gain reward whether it is exp, virtual money, or equipment. I've yet to hear a player who wants to play a MMO where there is no tangible reward of any sort. Better yet, does such a MMO even exist?Originally Posted by The_Alt_oholic
There are plenty of NA players that are insistent that the DEVs have never said that they don't want farming in the AE and that they have a right to exploit the AE as long as there is an ability to do so[/quoteTwo wrongs doesn't make a right.
Nextly, it is up to the developers to decide what is an "acceptable" rate of experience or reward gain. That is *NOT* something that is determined by the player community. I've played many MMOs and I have yet to hear a developer openly claim that farming/camping is an exploit which means they are choosing their words quite carefully as to avoid labeling farming as something that it isn't. I guess the point I'm getting at is that your attempts to label farming as an exploit holds no water, substance or even feces.
False. The developers banned people who were *exploiting* the bugs in the MA system. They are not banning the vast majority of people who partake in your run of the mill farm missions. Plowing over mobs that don't fight back (hami) or give broken amount of experience points (rikti communication officer) are exploits. Defeating groups of level 52-54 lieutanents or bosses aren't. The very basic design behind MA allows the author to compose their enemy groups in any way they choose. That MA feature was designed and implemented by Paragon Studios and they have not said it was not working as intended. That fact alone makes the exploit argument far apart completely.Quote:- regardless of how much we remind them that the DEVs are against farming in the AE and that they can be banned, etc. for exploiting the AE. -
Quote:Because anytime you talk about player created content, that is the risk you run. Paragon Studios isn't the first developer to think of implementing player created content. Almost all of them rejected the idea outright due to this concern. As a developer you can *try* to create a tool that is seemingly farm or PL proof but that is just wishful thinking because developers are generally on the defensive. They fix player reported bugs, they respond to exploits, so on and so forth. Resourceful players will always find a way to beat the system. The best analogy would be a cat and mouse game that continues on forever and most developers simply deem it not feasible (cost or effort) wise to engage in such activities. Only the most naive of people would think that letting players create their own content won't somehow lead to farming or PLing.
What's the point of having MA if there is only farmers, powerlevers and new people as victims who has no clue what's the CoH is all about.
The idea of removing MA is a ship that has already sailed. They can't do it and they won't do it. It would destroy their reputation in the MMO world and turn CoX into a laughingstock. New players will cringe away based on all the negative publicity and without new blood, a niche game like this will die. They also can't just nerf MA to oblivion, to the point that very few people will bother using it. That would be also the same as admitting that they were wrong and again, give critics plenty of ammunition to slam CoX. MA in its current incarnation is here to stay. There might be a few tweaks along the way but that's about it.Quote:So, basicly I see as better option not to have MA than have them like they are now. Because it spoils the new commers. How ever, better option would be fix MA's so that they aren't just for farmers and powerlevelers. -
Some teams can clear level 54 boss missions faster than most *normal* teams can clear level 52 boss missions. I've been on plenty of them. Generally it involves 2-3 brutes, 1-2 kins, a dom or two but it can vary. As long as you keep the mobs bunched up, you can clear them fast with enough FS (or -res debuff) and AoE DPS. With teams like, you might as well run level 54 bosses since level 52s would be far too easy.
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Quote:Skill and knowledge aren't the same. To play this game, you need minimal physical skills a.k.a hand eye coordination. That's why I said what I said because it is true. Any FPS or even RTS requires more coordination to play than your typical MMO.Originally Posted by Vicious_Circle
It doesn't take a kind of skill to create a good build based on knowledge you've learned from playing the game?
Knowledge on the other hand is obtained either through experience *or* outside assistance. To make a good build, all you just need to learn about Mids and to read the AT section of the forum for advice/ideas. Being able to read, remember, and follow instructions can hardly be considered as *skillful*. The problem with a lot of new players is that they don't know where to look for that knowledge, not because they aren't capable of absorbing it.
Frankly, I find the whole idea of "needing a good build to be effective in CoX" absurd anyways. As I've already said, this game is not hard enough to require an optimal build for the vast majority of the content. A mediocre build (or a non-IOed one) is normally enough to contribute to a build sufficiently. The only reason why some people (me included) opt for min-max, no non-sense, decked out characters is because we want to maximize efficiency and capability when faced with a specific type of content. That is an entirely different subject matter which is tilted toward the extreme, not the norm. -
Quote:Sorry, all those things you describe are already tactics used in farming, extensively at that. Stop pretending that your run of the mill regular content is somehow more difficult when compared to level 54 boss farm AE. It's not. Some missions such as Carnies or Malta might be more irritating and frustrating but that's not the same as difficult, not by a long shot.
It'll be a chance for all the PLers and farmers who use newbs to pad to finally team with the evil they have wrought and experience the pure unadulterated suckitude of clueless players struggling to even use a train, much less understand LoS, pulling, herding, tanking, not AoE Immobing over KD areas, etc, ad nauseum.
It seems a lot of you people enjoy overrating your own so called *skills*. Frankly, that is kind of sad given how easy CoX is when compared to a lot of the other MMOs (or games in general) out there. The *skills* and *knowledge* that is required to be proficient in CoX is little more than Super Mario Brothers to put it bluntly.
Lastly, AE farm teams generally don't take in lowbies to pad or fill, whichever word you prefer. In fact, a good deal of AE farm teams specifically state they don't want ATs below a certain level, usually 35, 38 or 40. If you wish to make blanket statements, at least attempt to accertain the facts first. Ignorance may be blissful but it certainly does little to enhance one's credibility. -
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Frankly, I still think it was a good idea. Maybe now other mmos will understand that their fanbase isnt one homogenous group of roleplayers or hardcore pvpers or raiders.
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Quick note. I don't think AE or more specifically, player created content, is a bad idea. I've said as much in my original post. However from an implementation standpoint, I don't think tools like AE should be given to the players unless the company is willing and capable to deal with all the issues that come with it. After all, things like AE is a constantly evolving monster prone to take on a life of its own. We've seen that much happen in the few short months since the release of AE. To put it bluntly, I'm highly skeptical that a tiny division/comapny like PS is capable of devoting the manpower and resources required to handle AE in its current incarnation in the long run. At least not without sacrificing significant man hours that could be put into the development of other areas of the game.
With that said, could PS get help from NCSoft if additional employees or funding is required to maintain this system? Sure, it's possible as anything is possible. However realistically speaking, we're talking about a 5 years old game that appeals to a niche audience and is not currently one of the major money makers for NCSoft. All of that translate to no, I doubt NCSoft will pony up the funding if PS needs the help. They'd sooner shut the servers down. -
There is no system that can't be broken by a resourceful individual armed with the right knowledge and motivation. Once that knowledge is out, it becomes a matter of multiplication. Word of mouth and gossip can spread as fast as a virus, especially when it comes to the internet. If that hole is plugged, it's only a matter of time before another is found. There is no foolproof system (especially when it comes to computer and internet) and to be honest, PS seemed to believe that they could control it. Well, if the CIA, FBI, and NSA can't stop random individuals from taking advantage of various glitches in their systems, I sincerely doubt a small game development company can fare any better.
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Frankly, AE gave something that MMOs should've never given to their players, which is the ability to create their own in-game content at will. I'm not referring to players being given the option to affect the supposed "persistant" world environment of a MMO. Rather I'm speaking of giving players the ability fo create something to suit their own *motives* and *objectives*.
The idea of giving players the capability of creating their own content isn't a bad one in itself, however one has to take into account the fact that customers for the most part, will not regulate themselves. In the end, the responsibility of monitoring and enforcement falls back onto the shoulders of the game developer. As anyone who has owned a moderately sized business or worked for one will tell you, quality control and policy enforcement is extremely expensive and time consuming. It's not something that enterprises with limited resources (game developers in general are small to mid cap businesses for the most part) can handle effectively. It's one of the major reasons why many other instance based MMOs have declined to implement such a feature into their game even though they had the capability (and player demand) to do so.
On the other hand, this point is now moot in the case of CoX since AE was implemented and a major hoopla was made out of it . As such, PS has no option but to keep it around with all their original promises intact. Any attempt to gut the system or to remove it out right would equate a public relations disaster, not to mention a major turn-off to many existing and potential subscribers. One of the worst things you can do in business is to given something to customers and then take it away. Such moves usually incites major complaints from the customer base with mass cancellations of service close behind. This is not to mention such moves would be an outright acknowledgement that the company made a major mistake, giving ample ammunition for competitors and industry insiders to slam you in the public arena. This is why I find all the talk about taking AE out of CoX to be unrealistic, naive and just downright foolish. It simply doesn't make any sense from a business perspective. Now that the boat has sailed, the only thing every CoX subscriber can do is to live with it because it is here to stay with no recourse. For good or ill.
The real irony here is that instead of AE being the catalyst of player created content craze spreading across the MMO world, I suspect a lot of future and existing MMOs will point to CoX as an example why they won't be implementing content creation tools. A blip on the radar screen instead of a phenomenon I suppose. -
And effectively make AE irrelevent, unused and essentially a pointless issue. So why did the devs spend all those wasted months developing the AE for in the first place? Why not just ask Apple to kill iPod or Microsoft to kill Windows OS because of some glitches in design. I'm sure companies are more than willing to take on a crippling publicity failure of that magnitude. CoX, no longer considered to be a main stream MMO, will not survive such a catastrophe.
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I personally can't wait for the spawn slider. I can then split my time farming between AE (for tickets/recipe rolls) AND regular content (for purples recipes). Blowing through large +2 spawns of regular content will be such a breeze for my brute kin duo after running 54 bosses.
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Or how about this awesome idea. Only allow AE access to those who has been vouched for by 10 other anti-farmers and/or roleplayers. This will really show those evil farmers (who happens to be guilty of causing everything that's gone wrong in every MMO and in fact the whole world) just who the boss is.
Some people need to pull their cranium out of their anus and get some much need sunshine. Fix the problems in your own lives (which are bound to be numerous) before worrying about fixing farming. -
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Latest doom? AE and farming/PLing.
Well, maybe not the latest, but certainly the biggest ongoing doom at the moment.
--NT
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Indeed. Funny thing is some people don't seem to realize that this happens to also the most ancient doom that has been around since the start of the MMO genre. Still..... waiting....... for..... the....... realization...... of....... that....... prophecy. -
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Yet you FAIL to mention that EQ (at least back in the day when I played it) and WoW (which I played for 2 1/2 years and finally burned out on) BOTH enact HARSH penalties for explotive PLing - and they don't bother to warn you either, you just try to log in to find your accounts been banned and you can no longer access anything.
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Now you've shifted the argument to an entirely different issue. Since when is using multiple accounts that you yourself paid for to PL your own characters considered an exploition? What exactly is your definition of exploitive PLing? Which MMO rules do you know of defines multiple account PLing is an exploitation of game mechanics? Is it exploitive because some people can afford multiple accounts but while can't? As far as I'm concerned, if you can afford multiple accounts and don't partake in exploitation of bugs in the game mechanic, it is perfectly acceptable to use those accounts for your own purposes. -
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If every MMO were working on your principle, there would probably not have any left going on the market. You know that?
Devs certainly did not create 50 leveling steps to see them bypassed in less than a week, a day or even a hour.
This is non-sense.
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Are you a complete newbie to the MMO genre? If you're not then you're doing a bang up job in sounding like one. Do you actually believe that the PL issue is exclusive to CoX alone? News flash, PL has been around since a decade ago when MMOs were first introduced. Some may even argue that they've been around even longer, since the days of MUDDing. Through all this time, people like you have been predicting the doom of MMOs due to PLing or farming. Yet games where PLing is rampent such as Everquest 1+2, FFXI, WoW, are still all around. In fact, coming back to CoX, PLing in every shape or form has been around and 4+ years later, the game is still alive and kicking.
Your act is nothing new nor is your candidness refreshing. The only non-sense here is your penchant for making melo-dramatic, far-fetched exaggerations regarding issues that has time and again been proven to be less of a concern than some drama queens made it out to be. Way to beat on a dead horse of an issue. Color me unimpressed. -
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I guess I should have made it clear that while I did direct my post at you specifically... I was speaking rather more generally. Lots of people have the same attitude that you do: that PLing their own characters doesn't impact anything. None of us have numbers on that. However, I think we can all agree that is the case. Likewise, there are a whole lot of people using the AE to PL. I think it is clear that all of them put together ARE impacting the numbers the Devs use to make adjustments to the game.
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Impacting the numbers perhaps but once again, the issue at hand is whether the developers actually use those numbers to substantiate their changes to this game. Developers are very idealistic as we know (cough Positron, cough Castle) and frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if they made their decisions based on their ideals instead of what the data suggest. Let's also not forget that the only *number* that NCSoft or any other for profit corporation cares about is their profit margin. It's a safe assumption that any in-game numbers that is contravening to those profit numbers will pretty much be tossed aside with little regard.
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If one takes that narrow of a focus on the discussion of PLing, then yes, my argument would lack substance. But, I think that you and I both know that there are a large number of folks out there PLing frequently.
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It isn't so much about narrowing the focus as it is about presuming we know the developer's motivations. This game from its inception has been about less grind and faster leveling when compared to other MMOs. Many features in this game are designed to make leveling easier, not harder. In actuality, as the game got older, leveling has consistantly gotten easier. The introduction of AE and persistant double exp weekends only serves to reinforce that point. Those are the only real identifying feature of CoX that we can go by, not conjectures and presumptions of developer motive. Now, if PL'ers are indeed skewing the data as you claim, why would the developers make it even easier to level? Shouldn't they be taking the opposite steps to try to slow down the progression speed? It would seem that what the developers are doing is the direct opposite of what you're suggesting they should do. -
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I ocassionally find myself ranting about those L45+ ishs without a single Vet badge who (for some strange reason), still haven't figured out how to utilize their AT/powers decently.
You know, the ones who got PL'd and cause wipe after wipe until leave/kicks occur.
So, in more cases than are comfortable, it does effect others.
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Oh, here we go again. Someone who sucks at playing their AT must be they're PLed. Sorry to burst your bubble but I have 14 level 50s, 11 of which hit level 50 prior to the release of AE. I don't need to slog my way through the first 30-40 levels of each new character to know how to play it properly. CoX isn't astrophysics, it isn't even the multiplication table. The game itself is ridiculously easy for *some* people to figure out when compared to a lot of other MMOs out there. This isn't my first trip around the block so spare me of the "you must not know how to play those characters which you PL'ed" non-sense. If someone else can't figure out how to play their characters properly (whether it is PL'ed or not), that is in no shape or form my fault. I will stand by my original assertion of how I PL my own alts has little to do with anyone else. -
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If you think I am full of it, ask yourself how the Devs determine when a bump should be made to the XP Curve, or how they figure out when an enemy group isn't giving quite enough XP?
They datamine... and all your PLing messes with the results of those calculations, which thereby impacts the potential for a smoother game experience for me.
So, how is it again that your gameplay doesn't impact mine?
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Actually, I do believe you're full of it. You're basing your arguement on a completely hypothetical assumption that may or may not reflect the actual methods that the devs use to make adjustments to their game.
Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. An individual (in this case me) PLing my alts is not nearly significant enough to actually skew the results collected from a sample size of hundred of thousands of characters, if not millions. Your assumption might be true if the majority of the CoX subscribers have multiple accounts and they all use the PL method to level their alts. However, since there is no concrete evidence to support such a drastic claim, your guesswork does not qualify as a fact thus your argument falls apart. -
I will never understand why some people are so obsessed with how fast *other* people are leveling. How fast I PL my alt has nothing to do with anybody else. The world would be a far better place if people would just direct all that misguided energy to more worthy... causes.
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So, your position is that teams that run AE missions with one level 50 running a level 54 boss map with 7 autoSKed lowbies standing around doing nothing promotes excellence and competence? You think old-style doorsitting lowbies SKed to perma-46s are doing their "best?"
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First of all, it's obvious that you've never even set foot inside a 54 boss farm before. You wouldn't have made that absurd "soloing level 54 farm with 7 lowbies" scenerio otherwise. There is no build that I'm aware of that can solo a 54 boss farm *efficiently*. In fact, most 54 boss farms I've been on involves *at least* 4 to 6 participants so there would be enough DPS for to clear the farm at an efficient pace. Even if it can be soloed, it would so excruciatingly slow that it can no longer qualify as a farm. It would be little more than plodding along and one would be better off joining a regular team that would be leveling at a much faster pace.
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When characters are getting to level 50 in a couple of hours, it's not through efficiency and skill. It's through gaming a broken reward system. Characters that gain 20 and 30 levels an hour are not doing so through their own initiative; they are getting a free ride and using the SK mechanics to scam giant rewards.
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Getting to level 50 in a couple of hours might've been possible with meow farms but that is no longer possible that I'm aware of. Right now it *might* be possible to get to 50 within a day but without efficient level 54 farm runs, do you think that's possible? So you see, efficiency does have a lot to do with leveling, whatever the method. Being efficient in farm runs is no different than being efficient in normal content. Both requires certain team wide criterias that are specific to the task at hand to be met. Maybe this type of efficiency isn't what you're looking for but it holds true none the less.
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I'm not talking some ridiculously low level level cap. I've not even suggesting what that level cap should be. I'm suggesting that one is needed. 20 levels an hour is obviously broken. Five levels an hour might be too low at level 1, but fine for level 10 or 15. It needs analysis and discussion, not out-of-hand dismissal.
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I didn't dismiss it. I only stated that I was against it because that idea strongly resembles an effort to level the playing field between the haves and have nots. I simply don't believe that anything in this world is fair and that each individual makes their own fortune. Thus, putting a cap or limitation on the haves is only an excuse to punish them while doing nothing to resolve the issue with the have nots.