artic1337

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I've wondered if character copying has hurt low-end testing. Traditionally once players have a way to test higher end stuff it is much rarer to see them doing the basic low-end stuff that needs to be tested for each patch (e.g. creating new characters of different types and looks, doing the tutorials, looking at the new content from a newbie perspective to see if it makes sense, low level hunting and missions, etc.). Wish there was a way to make them put in that kind of time if they want to play with the new high end stuff.

Hope you don't give in to the group that want free levels on test, that will just make this problem much, much worse.

Scorus

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from the first day Update 2 hit the Test Server i played nothing but new characters from level 1.

it never occured to me to /bug the "plethora of +1s" becuase, in my book, fun isnt a "bug".

the only reason people are calling it a bug is becuase the devs have labelled it that. i just thought it was Cryptic's first, small step, towards actually giving us some challenging content.

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Just out of curiosity, for those complaining about massive debt did it ever occur to anyone to stop doing what they were doing to get debt in the first place. If the mission was too hard to solo and you died did you keep going back just to get killed again without taking a different approach?

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yes, i kept going back again and again . . . until i beat those bastige RED con bosses!

it was awesome!!!

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Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols.

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why are they gonna nerf the patrols, too?

shouldnt we just get the "plethora of +1s" bug fixed and see how that works out first before overcompensating even more to make the missions the yawnfest affairs they were before?

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Okay, so the +1 enemies across the board in missions is a bug. Great. Any hints on when it's going to be FIXED, and what we should do in the meantime, since some of us (genuine newbies) serious problems doing our own missions with this BUG?

If the answer's "don't play for a week," well... I understand these things happen, but I won't be happy about it.


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the answer is keep trying . . . keep trying new things . . . you might surprise yourself.

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Oh - forgot another change - shrunk the size of wandering patrols

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noooooooooooooooo . . .

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I don't know if what Statesman said was truly the intentions or not. I DO know that this rollout went against MANY things he has said previous to this issue. I'll believe the actions for now, thank you.


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Hmmm. So the fact that we've....

1) rolled back stun attacks on Trolls and Outcasts
2) removed stun from Nemesis minions
3) made the Terra Volta trial easier several times
4) fixed the bug where Rikti Greater Swords were doing double their damage
5) Shrunk the level range at the entrance of the Hollows
6) Moved Contacts in the Hollows into safer locations

Does those actions perhaps support my "intentions..." about the lower levels?

I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG. We did NOT notice them on the Training Room server. It happens. I made a mistake. We're fixing it (though it isn't live yet).

Oh - we did make Nemesis and Rikti more difficult by giving them more powers - at the higher levels.

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Stateman, im confused about something with tihs "plethora of +1s" bug.

what exactly is the bug? and what exactly is the fix?

im nott being a smart [censored] here. i can see how what i asked could be seen as sarcasm. im seriously confused.

is the bug that TOO MANY missions mobs are spawning as +1?
(meaning the fix will be to tweak down the overzealos spawning subroutine)

or is the bug the fact that there are ANY +1s mobs in mission?
(meaning once the fix goes in we wont see any +1s anymore)


was the way missions were spawning in Update 2 when it was on the Test Server the way it should be on Live, now . . . or was it bugged then (becuase, honestly, i thought it was, and still, is awesome).

wow, a "new guy" that doesnt feel ***** by the "plethora of +1s in missions bug".

guess the whiners will have to find a different justification than "But, the new people wont know how to handle it!"

the lowbie game is the funnest it has ever been since CoH was released . . . and yet, it is a "bug".

bizzaro mmorg.

i, for one, am getting sick of being told to wait, and then getting and then having removed, and then told to wait some more for any form of challenging game play.

Statesman, CoH is turning into some bizaaro mmorg where the efforts and opinions of the skilled player are not only NOT rewarded but viewed with contempt.

why is it perfectly acceptable (and done much too frequently) to tell the competent player, "If YOU think missions are too boring becuase they are too easy, then just dont do them."

but it is tantamount to sacrilege for the skilled player to replay back, "NO! If YOU think the missions are too hard then YOU don't do them!"

my reward for being a skilled player? i have to resort to excluding myself from the the largest and most thought out facet of CoH . . . the mission system.

Why is the typical response to thinking the game is too unchallenging, "Play a specifically gimped charatcer, don't use all your powers or make use of inspirations"?

But if the competent players replies, "No. YOU need to play better. You need to build better. You need to build stronger in-game relationships" he is labelled an elitist?

my reward for being a competent player? i shouldnt play the AT or power sets i want. i should not use all the powers, resources, and tools available to everyone else in the game. i must, basically, restrict my access to the full spectrum of the game becuase someone else's self esteem might get dented?

shouldnt the difficulty level of the game be set at a height that requires the player to leap to attain it (we are player Super Heroes, are we not?). instead the challenge level is set so low that any hint of challenge any change introduces is labelled a bug that must be "fixed".

bullying even con minions is not my idea of fun. you know what is? the "bug" that came with Update 2. slamming my (less than 20th level) newbie character against hordes of +1 minions and RED con bosses. getting sent to the hospital and having to work out a means to win. and trying, and failing again, and finally beating that bastiges!

i know, that's crazy talk . . . let's get this "plethora of +1 mobs" bug "fixed" so we can all get back to our naps.

it's payback time, Blaster!

mwuhaha.

CoH is turning into some bizaaro mmorg, where the competent player is penalized with boring game play and is constantly told to "gimp yourself" if it's not hard enough for you.

everyone knows the "gimp yourself" response . . . makes me want to punch teeth when i see someone spouting that crap.

the other one is, "if you think missions are too easy and boring dont do them". gah! the mission system is the largest facet of CoH . . . and since im a competent player my reward is having to completely ignore and forego that aspect of game play?

and to make it worse, Update 2 acutally makes missions fun . . . and now theere's talk that it's considered a bug and is going to be "fixed"?

bizzaro world, i tell ya!

i just started up a tanker. have had 4 missions with bosses in them, all 4 were RED cons, all 4 were defeated the level i got the mission.

if you cant handle groups of 3 +1 minions then you can always get help or level up to finish it.

if all you need to defeat those same 3 +1 minions is sneeze, yawn, and sneeze again, then there is nothing you can do to wrangle any fun game play out of missions. essentially, you have to avoid a large section of the game just to have fun.

now tell me, which side of that coin needs to fixed?

remove the +1s from missions and wait for a difficulty slider to get coded and for beefed up minions to get balanced?

or just leave the +1s minions there until the difficulty slider and beefed up minions can be added?

i've ben keeping a running account of my lowbie mission experiences vs +1 bosses over here .

no one seems to be too interested in whineless posts aimed at shedding light on debatable topics.

time for a George Carlin quote!

"You hear these people all the time, 'My needs aren't being met' . . . you know what I tell them? 'Drop some of your needs!'"

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Article57:

Yes, sure you can look at it that way and I totally agree that the game needs rebalancing but let me run this past you and you tell me if this is UNBALANCED?

Versus even con (white) mobs at level 30+:

Minions - 6
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG

And of course mixing things up so that 1 Lieu and 3 minions (as an example) would be a "difficult" battle...

Now how unbalanced is that from level 5 (approx):
Minions - 3
Lieutenants - 2
Bosses - 1
AVs - better call in the SG

Statesman wants to make things challenging again for the 30+ crowd? I say all the power to him. Fighting rediculous numbers of mobs (sometimes 4+ levels higher is nuts).

BUT MAKING THE GAME SO THAT JUST 3 EVEN CON MINIONS AT 40+ CAN SERIOUSLY CHALLENGE ME steals my sense of growth. It is through minions that we MEASURE our strength, like in the comics. I can't see the harm in letting hero's gain some ground on lowly minions as they gain levels. Would a jump from 3 minions to 6 really be that unbalancing?

QF

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well, players arent being challenged by even 6 minions currently at the high levels (herding anyone?) and i seriously doubt that the better builds and more skillful players would be stymied by 3 beefed up minions and 1 uber Lt. even if the feared changes being discussed in the thread were currently in game.

Cryptic is a smart bunch. im not just being a fan boy about this either. i got into beta about 3 weeks before retail and i was thoroughly impressed by them. then in retail my faith began to wane becuase i began to see how unchallenging the released product was and i became very vocal in my criticisms of Cryptic. now, with what im seeing in Update 2, and with what Statesman is leaking about what they are going to be working on once it has gone live, my impression of Cryptic has increased.

these proposed changes to the challenge level of mobs is not going to ruin anything . . . it's only going to strengthen the game. challenge is the lifeblood (bling bling) of mmorgs and Cryptic is a very competent dev team and i have complete confidence that they will balance the overall game to both their intended Vision and the players satisfaction.

everyone is focussing on this magic number "3" that Statesman used to support what they have planned once Update 2 is up and running on the live servers. but that's just a basic design paradigm. they are making these changes becuase the game is "too boring". if making 3 white minions a challenge in turn results in a "too boring" situation im confident they will adjust that magic number. remeber, all these proposals are coming becuase Cryptic indeed wants to fix this "too boring" situation. Cryptic has a high standard of quality and will not release any half-cocked changes.

from where i sit, it seems Cryptic is using indoor mission spawns as the benchmark for what SHOULD be a challenging encounter to the player (at all levels). in missions you typically get 3 white minions . . . so that is going to be their benchmark to adjust the difficulty / challenge level. it's as good a benchmark as any other (and doesnt require them to rework the entire mission system to placate the people who feel that 6 "0.5 difficulty" minions is somehow qualitatively more "Heroic" than 3 "1.0 difficulty" minions). if it turns out that the beefed up "3 white minions" doesnt actually give that fuzzy, comic book hero, feeling i'm sure they'll adjust it.

everyone's arguing over proposals at the moment. it just seems silly to me. and, even though, i seem to come down on the pro-"3 white minions" side of the fence, i'm not actually for it or against it. what i am for is that the challenge level of the game needs a serious boost. however that is done by Cryptic is fine with me. whether it's "3 whites" or "6 whites". all i know is, once you hit level 22 missions are a huge /yawnfest. either raise the benchmark to "3 whites = a challenge" or make "X whites = a challenge" and make missions spawn those "X whites" for me, i dont care.

have faith bruddas!

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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.

currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.

ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.

you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?

so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.

methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.

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no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.

This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.

That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.

Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"

Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.

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ok, wait, i still DO NOT get it. let me rephrase my post (that you quoted)

currently: let's say you can face off against 10 +2 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.

ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.

you now hunt 10 -2 minions (who are as tough as the old +2 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is -2 instead of +2, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?

so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.

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ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.

currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.

ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.

you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?

so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.

methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.

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no that's not it. And if i try and explain it to you I know you'll feign ignorance.... but oh we'll he're goes.

This is supposed to be a super hero game. that's what it's billed as. Only fledgling characters would get beaten down by 3 minions. Now if you want to buy into state's vision you go for it.... but hear me out. The hand are some of the deadliest minion in marvel comics. If they'd faced daredevil early in his career they would have forced those fancy brass knuckles down his throat post haste. After fighting those guys for years he improved to the point where he could wipe the floor with them. Because he was experienced fighting them. I could see getting my *** handed to me by 3 +1 minions.... but a super hero should be able to whack 10 minions of equal level silly.

That is my perception... I'd be willing to shave 2 off that to 6... but three? If that "feels" super to you more power to you. Dosen't feel super to me. If i saw batman getting his cowl cleaned by 3 of the jokers henchmen I'd give up comics. If they differntiated things a bit.... say rikti minons were stronger than crey security guards.... or 5th super soldiers were more of a threat than your average street hoodlum....maybe it would make sense. but they've made no such distinction. a minion is a minion is a minion is a wimp.

Make such distinctions, balance xp based on that and I'll eat that soup with the crackers. Leave as it is now and tell me that 4 guys in funny hats holding muskets can send me to the hospital.... and I'm expected to "feel super?"

Not buying it.
Or more importantly,... not paying for it. I'm average every day of my life, it's free.

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ok, first off, comments about game balance that are rooted in a comic book analogy are not useful in the least. using comic book analogies to discuss the "comic book" feel of CoH is perfectly fine, but it's right out when talking about game balance. CoH isnt a comic, it isnt a movie, it isnt a novel . . . it's a mmorg. and even though it is BASED on comics (and will strive to capture a comic book feel and setting) it is in the final analysis a mmorg and must meet certain criteria that comic books, movies, and novels do not.

but hey, i'll play it your way . . .

in those issues where Daredevil (or Wolverine, or Batman, or whoever) is kicking the bejeebus out of 20 minions at once . . . i wonder what level are those guys? are they even cons? greys maybe?

you see, it's pointless to use comic book examples to base a game balance criticism on. comics are about entertainment through story telling. mmorgs are about entertainment through challenging game play. comic authors don't have to worry about "minion levels" or "AT balance" or "how fast (or slow) it took Batman to get to 50th level" . . . but Cryptic does.

for example, is my suggestion that Daredevil is beating up on 20 grey con minions at once absurd or not? i mean, why would Daredevil waste his time on greys . . . THEY DONT GIVE XPs! you think Daredevil ever seends his authors a letter asking why they nerfed his Nightstick Accuracy? or that his Super Reflexes doesnt seem to be working as good as they did last week. or that Kingpin's Smashing resistance is too high. no, all those examples are ridiculous becuase you cant discuss game balance with comic book analogies.

so deal with it, 'cause the changes . . . they are a comin'

ok, i'll admit . . . i DO NOT get it.

currently: let's say you can face off against 3 +5 minions easily and, in the process of making yourself feel "heroic", you gain (made up) 9000 xp total.

ok, fast forward to a CoH land far in the future where these "proposed" changes are actually in effect.

you now hunt 3 +1 minions (who are as tough as the old +5 minions were) and gain 9000 xp total . . . but this is not as heroic as before becuase the arbitrary number used to represent the mobs relative strength to your own is +1 instead of +5, even though the challenge and the reward is the same?

so, yeah . . . i DON'T get it.

methinks your concern is not with feeling "heroic", but rather just having something to complain about.


p.s. i just hope Statesman is aware that more of us actually do "GET IT" than don't and has the strength to stick to his guns and continue to make the game better day by day.

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The sun has long since settled over the horizon of Independence Port. The cold chill of the sea breeze raises goose bumps along the back of even the most hardened hero. Soon thugs of all shapes and sizes will be making the citizens of Paragon tremble in fear under the cover of the darkness.

From his perch high atop a loading crane, The Dark Avenger spots a group of Tsoo warriors go about their nightly rounds. This time a simple business man who refused to pay their protection money is being assaulted in an alley way.

"Look down there Birdboy." The Dark Avenger's steely voice alerts his sidekick to the activities below. "The Tsoo are pressing their advantage here in the port. Someone should put a stop to this."

"Right Dark Avenger!" The young sidekick prepares to jump into the foray after his mentor. "Lets set these guys straight."

"Whoa, whoa, whoa, there my young sidekick. Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I count 2 Lieutenants sorcerers and 3 inkmen minions. Maybe we should call in the Justice Squad for some backup."

Birdboy's jaw drops as The Dark Avenger, Protector of Innocents, Keeper of Peace, Defender of Truth, pulls his Justice Squad Communicator from his utility belt.

"You can't be serious?" Asks the stunned sidekick.

"Dark Avenger calling on all Justice Squad members. We have a code yellow here. Requesting back-up"

Shriek! The Dark Avengers communicator shrieks as the calls from the rest of the Justice Squad filter in. Each hero seems to be held up with his own attempts at battling evil.

"Tauntman here. Got my hands full in Brickstown. I ran across 3 Crey scientists, this might take a while. At least there aren't any Mob Specialists with billy clubs. If I can get to your position I will."

Shriek!

"Dark Avenger? Wonder Chick here. I'm near your position, at the hospital actually. Ran across two Capo Muscles and a Consigliore. I didn't stand a chance. I'll be right there."

Shriek!

"Green Lightbulb here. I'll be right there. This mission is impossible anyway. There's a frickin BOSS in here, no way in hell I can handle that. Stupid contacts. Don't they know I can't handle anything more than 3 minions?"

Shriek!

"Hey DA, This is StormFire. I got Hawk Woman, Speedy Guy, and Martian Man with me. We got our hands full here in Dark Astoria. It'll be awhile till we can get there. Why do all of these mobs have a stinkin Totem in it? No way we can take these guys out."

etc, etc, you get the point.

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exactly.

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the Justice Squad suxxorz!!!

im glad Statesman and the rest of the devs have, as their next big priority, upping the challenge level of the game . . . i want to play City of Heroes, not City of Bullies.

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Anyway, sorry for my rambling. I wanted to give you a glimmer of the developer reasoning.

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you're the King of CoH! i dont think anyone would begrudge you rambling . . .

keep in mind that while the left hand is working on getting the ATs worked out the right hand is working on increasing mob strength . . . the recent scrapper changes and this tanker change preview could be viewed as over the top but in the end im sure it will all balance out well against the soon to be souped up mobs.

woah!

the slight bump to mission difficulty on Test Server is GREAT!

if all you "amused by shiny objects" people who spend all your time authoring "why dont the police NPCs save me?!?!!" posts get the missions dumbed down im gonna be very angry . . . and you dont want to make me ANGRY!

HULK SMASH WHINY POSTERS GRAAA ARGHHH!!!!