Werner

Exactly. Due to peculiarities of how everything was coded, a defense debuff enhancement in a defense power enhances defense. So by using Enzymes, you get a much higher defensive value out of that single slot than you can in any other way. You're still capped by ED, but it can help you to conserve slots in some builds.

Well, there's a WHOLE LOT to get, so that isn't surprising. Let's start back at the beginning, probably TOO far back, but hey.

First, what is defense debuff resistance? It resists defense debuffs, of course! So let's say you're running around with 45% defense to all positions. Now some minion shoots you with a machine gun for a 10% defense debuff. With no defense debuff resistance, your defense drops to 35%. With 50% defense debuff resistance, your defense drops (100% - 50%) * 10% = 5%, to 40%. With 90% defense debuff resistance, your defense drops (100% - 90%) * 10% = 1%, to 44%.

Now let's talk about cascading defense failure. Now that you've been hit by one minion with a machine gun, whether your defense is now 35% or 40% or 44%, the NEXT minion with a machine gun is more likely to hit you. Someone with 35% defense is three times as likely to get hit with that second shot. So the shots starts to pile up. Soon, your defense is solidly in the red, everyone is hitting you with everything, and you either run or die.

With 50% defense debuff resistance, this scenario is less likely, but can definitely still occur. Basically, they just have to pry you open, and then they'll just keep debuffing you until it's all over.

But with 90% defense debuff resistance, that first hit barely budges your defense. Yes, future attacks are technically more likely to occur, but not by much. Cascading defense failure, while technically possible, will probably be rare to nonexistent.

So on sets where it is possible (particularly SR and SD), it's nice to grab what defense debuff resistance we can.

Shield Defense has three powers that give you defense debuff resistance - Battle Agility, Grant Cover and Active Defense. The DDR in Battle Agility and Grant Cover are enhanced the usual way - by adding defense enhancements to those powers. So if you want good DDR, you'll take and slot both Battle Agility and Grant Cover for defense. Active Defense is a little different. First, you cannot slot defensive enhancements or sets in it. However, there's a way around that, which is to use Membranes. Membranes WILL slot there, and the defense in them WILL enhance the DDR (as mentioned earlier in the thread, this may not be intended, and may go away some day). The second difference is that it is a click power, and it can overlap, and the DDR stacks when it does.

So to get maximum DDR, the goal is to have Battle Agility and Grant Cover slotted for defense, Active Defense slotted with Membranes, and then enough global recharge in the build to double-stack Active Defense. Do all that, and you can get to 95% defense debuff resistance, the cap. Many or most people settle for less than that. The really hard part is the massive recharge, so most will probably settle for some short period of time where Active Defense isn't stacked. For example, in your original build, Active Defense wouldn't be stacked for 13 seconds out of every 60.

As far as calculating the time spent with it double-stacked vs. single-stacked, that gets fairly complicated since these builds usually have Hasten but not perma Hasten. I just use a spreadsheet I made. I could explain all the calculations, but I'm guessing that that's going farther than what you were really asking about.

Hopefully I got all that right. I'm sure someone will correct me if not.

Neither build you posted has Fireball.

Yeah, I noticed that. Here's the DDR of the builds posted so far:

Nightchill = 58% for 47 seconds, 41% for 13 seconds = 54% average
Santorican (common IOs changed to level 50) = 94% for 48 seconds, 66% for 12 seconds = 88% average
SOMEonE Nice #1 = 69% for 41 seconds, 45% for 19 seconds = 61% average
SOMEonE Nice #2 (the build posted with the comment) = 66% for 30 seconds, 45% for 30 seconds = 56% average

So HOPEFULLY the "one -Def debuff on you and your (sic) dead" comment was in regards to Nightchill's build and not yours. But even then, while I agree that the DDR in Nightchill's build is subpar (54%), the build SOMEonE Nice posted with the comment was only 2% better (56%). The other build SOMEonE Nice posted is a little better still at 61%, but that's still subpar. Only Santorican's build started handling DDR properly at 88%. It can go all the way to the cap, but 88% is probably enough in practice.

I can't tell if we're being messed with or if SOMEonE Nice is simply confused about how much he or she "knows" about how all this works, and as a result thinks the REST of us are confused about how all this works, and thus the fairly derisive yet inaccurate comments. There are probably other possibilities as well. Those are the two that I'd bet on. It'd be amusing if I weren't worried about other people being misled and spending gobs of influence on subpar builds.

And I apologize, Nightchill, but I don't have a build of my own to offer as I haven't fiddled with DM/SD directly. I suspect the linked thread has some good ones, but I haven't checked them.

Trust me, Aaron, don't. It seems like SOMEonE Nice wants to show us all how it's done, which is great and all, except that he or she doesn't seem to know how it's done.

From another thread where the same build was posted, things that are jumping right out at me in his or her build:

• Can't run the top attack chain gapless
• AoE isn't soft-capped
• Steadfast Protection knockback IO when you're already immune to knockback (and if it's for the 0.03 EPS recovery, you can do much better elsewhere)
• Cytoskeletons should be Enzymes
• Microfilament in Super Speed? You're over the cap for speed, and you don't need endurance reduction in a travel power.
• Endurance won't be sustainable (probably good enough for normal play)
• Two full set mules? That's not strictly a failure, but I'd rather my powers and slots be doing something for me other than bonuses.
• Not particularly good defense debuff resistance, which is one of the perks of Shield Defense

I'm sure there's more, but hopefully the point is made. It's not a BAD build overall, but it's far from "trust me jsut do mine hah". You can do better.

Edit: Also not saying that there wouldn't be a similar list for your build or Santorican's quick edit. Tracking down a better build is a good idea, though.

Things that are jumping right out at me:

• Can't run the top attack chain gapless (particularly relevant since OP asked for DPS)
• AoE isn't soft-capped
• Steadfast Protection knockback IO when you're already immune to knockback (and if it's for the 0.03 EPS recovery, you can do much better elsewhere)
• Cytoskeletons should be Enzymes
• Microfilament in Super Speed? You're over the cap for speed, and you don't need endurance reduction in a travel power.
• Endurance won't be sustainable (probably good enough for normal play)
• Two full set mules? That's not strictly a failure, but I'd rather my powers and slots be doing something for me other than bonuses.
• Not particularly good defense debuff resistance, which is one of the perks of Shield Defense

I'm sure there's more, but hopefully the point is made. It's not a BAD build overall, but it's far from "take this build and no other".

Well, I didn't die 121 times. I'm going to totally guess and say five times? No real idea. I wasn't counting. Didn't really care. Hell, I brought my Regen to the all scrapper ITF I did BECAUSE I thought it would be challenging what with him having no defense debuff resistance. My Super Reflexes would have been boring.

Look, part of the reason for doing an all Scrapper task force is to just cut loose, and not worry about squishies, and not worry about doing anything "right", and just kill or be killed. So what if you get separated from your group, dive into a pile of enemies you don't think you can handle, and it turns out you were right? It's just a trip from the hospital.

Play MoSTF if you want. Play right if you want. I was just there for the Scrapping.

I looked at a couple Shadow Maul chains to see if taking advantage of the Gladiator proc would let it pull ahead of the old standard for DPS. I checked Smite -> Shadow Maul -> Smite -> Siphon Life and Smite -> Shadow Maul -> Midnight Grasp. They weren't very close. The Gladiator proc just doesn't bring enough to the table to overcome the low DPS of Shadow Maul. Now, I loves me some Shadow Maul, but not for AV soloing.

And yeah, Shield Defense is better for AV soloing, at least if you have a good budget. But there's nothing wrong with Dark Melee/Super Reflexes. It'll get the job done, just a little slower.

Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon Life would take +355% recharge (impossible solo) to run without gaps, and STILL wouldn't beat Smite -> Midnight Grasp -> Smite -> Siphon life for DPS. It WOULD be better for healing, but when you really need it, you can drop your DPS a bit to spam Siphon Life as fast as you can.

It's Membranes. Enzymes are a different "cheat", which has confused me before as well.

Active Defense has 17.3% defense debuff resistance. You can't slot defense IOs or sets in it, so on the surface, you can't enhance the DDR. But there's a "cheat" - you CAN slot Hamios in the power, specifically Membranes. Membranes give you both recharge and defense, and that defense enhances the defense debuff resistance in the power. Three level 50 Membranes take it to 27.7% defense debuff resistance while also giving it +95% recharge. Now you pile on the global recharge until you knock the recharge time of the power down to 60 seconds or less. You then have a perma double stack of Active Defense, and the defense debuff resistance stacks with it. So now that one power is giving you 55.4% defense debuff resistance. Slotting up Battle Agility and Grant Cover gives you another 38.3% or so. Put together, you get 93.7% DDR, almost capped. Adding another Membrane or bumping up the level of the Membranes can get you the rest of the way if you desire.

Now I've described this as a "cheat", as it probably wasn't intended by the devs, and perhaps it will be taken away some day. However, I've also heard that they've said, basically, "Hamio 'exploits' are now an accepted part of the game." My take on that is that there's often very little reason to slot Hamios EXCEPT for this sort of "exploit", and it isn't particularly overpowered compared to set IOs most of the time, so it's just considered business as usual now.

OK, you're starting at zero. Add in Combat Jumping and Weave. Steadfast Protection unique in Tough. Gaussian Set. I consider those just basic stuff that everyone should have, and that gets you to about 14% defense. I'd shoot for about 25% defense, say, so another 11% or so to each position. It's a lot, but it's probably doable for an end game build. At 25% defense, you are very significantly reducing the amount of incoming damage. Uh... 20% of attacks hitting instead of 45%? So you're taking less than half as much incoming damage. Even if you don't get to 25%, it's worth it.

Fair enough. But you really should on a Regen.

It is numerically better to use Dull Pain when injured. There's really no debate on that one. You CAN keep it up full time, particularly if you're still learning to deal with spike damage and want that extra cushion, but you're missing out on half of its benefit.

Even Moment of Glory can be worth holding off on. It mitigates damage SO well that you might as well use it after you're injured, and then heal for 15 seconds while it's running. That's a little trickier, though. Still, I do try to hold off, and only use it in the middle of a nasty alpha, not before jumping in.

Reconstruction is just a matter of experience. When do you need a heal at all, is Reconstruction enough, should you click Dull Pain instead, that sort of thing.

Instant healing... well, I don't have perma Dull Pain, so I kind of cycle the two, which isn't really good advice for a normal build. Been too long for me to give good advice on it, I think.

Well, without set IOs, it still has slightly higher DPS and in my experience fits better into good attack chains. So I still think Gambler's Cut would be the better attack.

I guess that makes sense. I had commented that:

"hit points that are on a random walk can easily hit zero, and... for an equal survivability number in my model, the probability of hitting zero on a Regen scrapper (where the random walk takes frequent and HUGE steps) is much higher than the probability of hitting zero on pretty much any other set (which take less frequent and smaller steps, sometimes much smaller)"

However, I can see that this is most relevant in the area of the game I care most about personally, extreme situations for extreme builds - AV soloing without inspirations, RWZ challenge, that sort of thing.

I can see that my comment applies much less to the normal PvE game that the devs balance around. Most Scrappers in the PvE game are not soft capped, so they're getting hit much more frequently than most anything I'm looking at in my own models. And everyone is probably getting hit for significantly less damage at a time in the normal PvE game, particularly when compared to AV soloing. More frequent and smaller hits should make our random walks be more comparable, and make it much less likely for a Regen scrapper at "sustainable survivability" to random walk themselves to zero hit points. If that factor makes less than a 10% difference in the normal PvE game the devs balance around, as you suggest, I can see how that's just not going to be enough to justify a buff, particularly when quantifying that difference is fairly difficult.

Regen doesn't get huge gains out of +recovery, +regen, or +hit points. Looks like none of us disagree on +recovery, so let's look at the others.

+Hit Points

Most well-built Regeneration Scrappers are going to have perma Dull Pain. Add that to the accolades, and you're only a hair from being perma hit point capped. Hit point bonuses beyond that are literally doing NOTHING for you while Dull Pain is up. Now yes, they're useful while Dull Pain is down, if, as I would strongly suggest, you use Dull Pain situationally rather than leaving it on full time. But now we're talking about highly situational benefits like the danger of getting hit so hard and so fast that you can't react with Dull Pain (or other mitigation) in time. Just about everyone else is getting serious benefits out of hit point bonuses full time. Even Invulnerability gets MORE benefit, since it is likely to have lower recharge, and is more likely to spend more time outside of Dull Pain.

+Regeneration

Borrowing from Umbral's way of describing this, think of survivability as a rectangle. Along one side is Damage Mitigation (primarily defense and resistance). Along the other side is damage recovery (primarily regeneration and heals). Your survivability is the AREA of that rectangle. The Regeneration secondary has HUGE damage recovery, and very little damage mitigation. For the sake of argument, let's say it has a damage mitigation of 10, and a damage recovery of 100. Your survivability is 1000. Now, let's say we go nuts with +Regeneration. Your damage recovery score might increase to 120. That's only a 20% improvement in your survivability.

Now let's say we add a ton of recharge instead. Well, Moment of Glory is mitigation, so your mitigation improves a little, let's say to 15. And your damage recovery improves a lot, possibly to 200. Now your survivability is 3000, a 200% improvement.

Or what happens if we add a ton of defense instead? You could probably easily double your damage mitigation to 20. Now your survivability is 2000, a 100% improvement.

20% is much less than 100-200%, so in that sense, Regeneration benefits very little from additional +Regeneration compared to +recharge or +defense.

Now we could compare this to other secondaries. Like let's say Super Reflexes. Super Reflexes is all damage mitigation with no damage recovery. So let's say Super Reflexes has a damage mitigation score of 100, but a damage recovery score of only 10. Add that same +regeneration to Super Reflexes, and its damage recovery increases to 30. Its survivability is now 3000, a 200% improvement. Other secondaries fall in various places on the damage mitigation vs. damage recovery line, but Regeneration is way down at the bottom with almost pure damage recovery.

So because of that, Regeneration benefits less from additional +Regeneration than other secondaries.

I believe I could similarly explain why +Defense isn't a huge benefit to Regen, less than a number of secondaries, but I do agree that it's a big benefit, so I'm not sure there's any argument here, depending on our definitions of "huge" vs. "big". Still, the general outline of it would be what I showed above, with defense improving survivability 100% vs. recharge improving survivability 200%. But yes, these numbers are coming from nowhere and mean very little without something more rigorous to back them up. And Regen probably isn't getting the LEAST benefit from +defense, I'll agree.

Almost completely off topic... If I jump through all the hoops to get it, and then jump through all the hoops to get back to hero side, do I lose it? I've not paid attention because I don't like red side, and figured I'd be bringing toons the opposite direction.

Because yeah, perma Hasten, Divine Avalanche and Shadow Meld sound like they could be a tasty combination on Regen.

Same experience here. Very comparable survivability, probably slight edge to my DM/SR over Katana/Regen.

But just as Katana gives Regen exactly what it needs, Dark Melee gives Super Reflexes exactly what it needs.

And really, most Katana and Broad Sword combinations tend to be very good in the survivability department. I wouldn't worry that they're bringing something to Regen that they aren't to other sets. My Katana/Dark, for instance, is much more survivable than my Katana/Regen.

Yeah, my survivability model has the exact flaws you mention. I don't account for debuffs at all, and my model cares only that hit points remain roughly steady (more technically take a random walk), and don't take into account that hit points that are on a random walk can easily hit zero, and that for an equal survivability number in my model, the probability of hitting zero on a Regen scrapper (where the random walk takes frequent and HUGE steps) is much higher than the probability of hitting zero on pretty much any other set (which take less frequent and smaller steps, sometimes much smaller). Now, I keep those flaws in mind when I'm actually using my models, but it also means I have no numerical means of comparing anything but very similar builds. Which means my model has no way of telling you how Regen compares to, say, Willpower, because they are drastically different sets. I can come up with numbers, but from there, it's pure fudge factors trying to say how they REALLY compare, and the margin of error in those fudges will be much larger than the differences, making the comparison pretty much useless.

Yes, Regen benefits greatly from global recharge. Your IO priorities should be recharge, recharge, more recharge, and then defense. Unfortunately, recharge is one of the most expensive things in the game to get really high. Taking Hasten and slotting for five 5% recharge bonuses is pretty much a given, though. After that, you want to pick up the Luck of the Gambler globals. Since those slot in defensive powers, at that point, you're working on both defense and recharge, which is good. At the top end, you want a bunch of purple sets.

I wouldn't say "easily". My DPS template builds put Dark Melee at 253 DPS with saturated Soul Drain, and Katana at 242. Katana will benefit more from the AAO buff, but I think it will just be in the same neighborhood, not be smashing records. Or we could compare to Broad Sword. I have Broad Sword at 212 DPS. The Pylon thread has BS/Shield at 236. Scale that up and you have 269 DPS. Let's call it upper 200s, possibly hitting 300 DPS on a dedicated DPS build that we probably won't see outside of the test server. But I haven't done any calculations specific to Katana/Shield, so I could be wrong.

Claws I think is even less likely to make a mark. I have it at 226 DPS, that that's with a bunch of Follow Up stacking, which means it won't benefit as much from the AAO buff. I'm guessing mid 200s, nothing special. Still, that's great DPS, plus all the fun attack options of Claws, plus Shield Charge. I bet it would be a hoot to play.

Yes, the game IS so easy that you don't need IOs. I suspect the vast majority just level up their characters with whatever comes to hand, then retire. Of the people who like playing their 50s, probably a lot of them aspire to good IOs, but probably very few people understand things like how to soft cap defense and cap defense debuff resistance on a Shield Defense character, which is what makes it (in my opinion) stomp a bit on Super Reflexes. Very few people have the budget to do it, even if they understand how. So the percentage of Shield players in game that are running soft-capped builds with capped DDR is probably minuscule.

Yes, that would be the ideal. But as a dev, I'm going to spend most of my balancing effort on the perhaps 99% of players that don't have multi-billion level 50 min/max builds, not on the 1% of players that do. Even with that in mind, I think they've done a very good job of balancing for the 1% of players as well. But it isn't and shouldn't be their focus.

Yes, but it could easily be argued that this would be overpowered. Super Reflexes is already an EXCELLENT set, and Elude probably provides good benefit already for the vast majority of players, all those people who haven't already built for 45% defense to all. You don't buff good powers in excellent sets just because the powergamers find that power largely useless (which brings us back to the 99% vs. 1% idea). You buff the powers and sets that are lagging, like what they did with Fiery Aura and Martial Arts.

I think your only chance is regular old defense to help keep the -regen attacks from landing. Clicking Moment of Glory should also keep you pretty safe for 15 seconds, which might be enough for it to wear off, and the defense from it should help keep more debuffs from landing. I think it's mostly about prevention and surviving through them. I haven't looked at what's available red side, though. Maybe there's something.