Werner

Oh, the streak breaker is much more aggressive than that. Leveling from 1-10, if you failed to slot ANY accuracy in your attacks, your chance to hit a white minion would begin at 90% and decrease to 82% by level 10. In that range, the streak breaker would only allow you to miss twice before forcing a hit.

If you slot a level 5 training origin accuracy at 2 and keep it until level 6, then switch to a level 10 training origin accuracy:

1 = 90.0% - two misses allowed
2 = 95.0% - one miss allowed
3 = 95.0% - one
4 = 94.6% - one
5 = 93.1% - one
6 = 92.4% - one
7 = 93.1% - one
8 = 91.7% - one
9 = 90.2% - one
10 = 88.8% - two

So chances are good that the OP is making up numbers for emphasis, or is bad at counting misses. Bloody Strike, if you really DID miss 11 times in a row on a white minion, then I apologize, and you've discovered a bug. Go reproduce it and send the combat log to the devs along with an explanation of your level, slotting, powers used and so on. Or run Herostats for a while and send them that file with similar explanation.

Lieutenants and bosses also have accuracy modifiers.

So a set has to be great on SOs for you to consider... taking all the SOs out and replacing them with completely differently performing IOs?

Isn't that kind of like saying, "A set has to be great at level 20, or I'm not going to bother leveling to 50." It might be a true statement about how you behave in game, but level 20 performance has little to do with level 50 performance, and SO performance has little to do with IO performance. One should not be judged based on the other in either case.

Mind you, I'm confident that Invuln can do what you ask, but I don't feel any need to prove it, because I don't care if you play Invuln or not. Willpower IS great. Stick with that if you want. No skin off anyone else's back.

But what about defense, or the lack thereof?

This is about layered survivability, and a Dark Melee/Invulnerability has nearly everything. With the help of IOs and pool powers, you can soft cap your defenses to most damage types, which is to say minimize the chance of enemies hitting you. For what does hit you, you have huge resistance, at least to smashing and lethal damage, and passable to most other types. For the damage that gets through that, you have capped hit points. And finally, you're topping up your hit points and healing at a clip with Siphon Life.

Electric has much less going for it on the survivability front. You might be able to do something like soft cap smashing/lethal, which is great, but leaves a lot more holes in your defense. The resistance is good, but not as good against the two most common damage types. Hit points are standard instead of capped. Healing is excellent if you go with Dark Melee, but not good enough to make it pull ahead.

On paper, I can get top survivability out of Katana/Dark. I have soft-capped positional defenses, 60% smashing/lethal resistance, generally better resistance to other damage types than Invuln, 1850 hit points, and a full heal every 13.5 seconds. But outside of overly simplistic mathematical models, it's not as good. Dark Melee/Invulnerability's extra smashing/lethal resistance combined with the extra hit points combined with the constant heal topping you up gives it the edge against massive spikes of damage, and for top end survivability, it's mostly about surviving massive spikes of damage. Mine is, of course, better against psionic enemies and probably several other cases, but doesn't win overall.

Not a quality build, no. The defense is terrible, it still uses the Fitness pool instead of taking those powers inherently, there are some really funny slotting choices that waste a lot of slots on very little, defense debuff resistance could be better, recharge could be better, either regeneration should be better or it should have Aid Self, recovery could be better, it has slots missing, it has none of the important unique IOs. It's just a mess. I don't have a build to show you and I need to get to work, but a quick search is bound to turn up something better.

Edit: Hmmm, the post I'm replying to seems to have disappeared.

Yep. If you respec, it will automatically give you the four powers from the Fitness pool as inherent powers. But it only does it when you respec in order to avoid disturbing working builds.

And yet there's a big difference in survivability between a regular Katana/Dark and a soft-capped Katana/Dark. I suppose I never tested out a fully IO'd Katana/Dark with only 31% defense, though. Maybe it wouldn't suffer as badly in comparison as I suspect. Maybe I'm just comparing to my leveling build, which isn't really fair.

Yes and no. I'm at 75% melee 74% lethal with two Divine Avalanches. But I've never considered melee/lethal to be very good defensive coverage. For ranged and AoE non-lethal attacks, I'd be getting hit almost four times as often. Yes, it'll still be a pretty solid build. But I'm fairly confident (though I haven't tried) that I could get better survivability AND better damage output from a Broad Sword/Shield defense. So why bother with Katana/Dark, at least from a numbers perspective?

Yes, fine, it'll still be better at some enemy groups. But I'd rather have the stronger general build.

People will still play plenty of combinations of course, even if 64% to-hit becomes the norm. But I believe it would only make Shield Defense more attractive comparatively, not less, at least when fully-IO'd.

Still, even if 64% to-hit becomes the norm, I suspect some of those incarnate abilities will have a LOT to say on the subject. It's way, way to soon to be making bets on the next great combination.

I doubt that.

If it's just the new Devouring Earth, it's no big deal, as they're easily avoided solo, and you'll probably be buffed to handle it on teams. If a lot more enemies are being given the 64% to-hit treatment, Shield Defense can be easily adapted and soft capped again. What CANNOT be adapted are things like my soft-capped Katana/Dark. It will no longer have the survivability, and lord knows it doesn't have the damage output of a */Shield. I'll stop playing that character, and probably IO out my Broad Sword/Shield, or maybe change the focus of my Fire/Shield, or maybe finish leveling my Shield/Dark Tanker and IO him out.

You might notice that the only characters I imagine playing in a 64% to-hit world are Shield Defense. So unless the dev reponse to Shield Defense supposedly being OP is to make it MORE OP, I assume the to-hit buffs either do not indicate a coming pattern, or if they do, the rationale has nothing to do with Shield Defense.

Sorry, that's just how I read it. Obviously not how you indended it, though it's still hard for me to read it in a way that isn't inconsistent, even with all your explanation. You could tell me, "work on your reading comprehension and stop putting words in my mouth." And I could tell you, "work on your writing skills because it's really difficult to make any sense of what you're saying other than that you don't like taunt auras and they're causing you survival problems." Anyway, doesn't seem to be much point to this any more. Nobody's going to convince you that Scrapper taunt auras are good, which is fine, because there's nothing wrong with you hating them and not playing Scrappers with them. It's a really big game with a whole lot of possibilities. Just realize that yeah, you're the only one, and you won't be convincing any of us or the devs either. The rest of us like them and think they're working as intended, and I wouldn't expect any changes from the devs to tone them down or remove them.

My theory? Because it's more easily computed, and because it's what's most visible in one of the hardest kinds of encounters in the game (AVs). But burst damage and AoE damage tend to matter more for the game at large.

But yes! Three seconds matter! Knowing I'm less awesome than I could be KILLS me!

(And yet I managed to put together and love a concept build with probably 80 DPS less than it "should" have. Shhhhh. Don't tell anyone.)

Quite.

Guess I'm really not following what you're saying, then.

You compared the design of the Brute and Tanker ATs (taunt in every attack, all have taunt aura, etc.) with the Scrapper ATs (only taunt aura in 3 secondaries). That sure reads, to me, like you're saying that Scrappers are much worse at getting and holding aggro than the other ATs. And then you appear to conclude from this that, since they are much worse at getting and holding aggro than the other ATs, that this must not be their purpose. They are not designed to get and hold aggro, so that cannot be their purpose.

But you also say that Scrappers hold aggro TOO WELL. Well, if they hold aggro so well, why would you conclude that they were not designed to do that? Do you think the devs screwed it up, and intended for them to not be able to hold all that aggro, and that seven years in they just haven't gotten around to fixing it? Certainly possible, I suppose, since there are other things in the game that are arguably still screwed up after all this time. But then, both Willpower and Shield Defense are "new" sets, and yet here they are, holding aggro "too well".

So scrappers hold aggro too well, which they weren't intended to do, which we know because they don't have all the perks that let them really hold aggro well.

Perhaps you can see how your argument, to someone not inside of your head and privy to your actual thoughts, might look a little... inconsistent?

Ah, an edit. Yes, that helps remove the inconsistency. So perhaps yes. If you don't build for survivability on a Scrapper with a taunt aura, and you're on a team with no other aggro control, you may indeed find yourself in over your head. But I would argue that the taunt aura is working as intended, and that it isn't a design flaw contrary to Scrapper purposes as you seem to think.

So to summarize:

"I hate taunt auras on Scrappers because I get and hold all the aggro, so everything attacks me and then I die. Scrappers shouldn't have taunt auras because aggro control isn't their function. I know that aggro control isn't their function because they aren't able to get and hold aggro. And BTW, screw that Blaster, because I've mistaken being self-centered for being self-reliant."

Sound about right?

Honestly, I agree that a Scrapper's primary purpose most of the time is doing damage. But when you start suggesting that enemies heading after the Blaster instead of you is a GOOD thing because your Scrapper is too squishy, you need your Scrapper card revoked.

Because with a Taunt aura and a little movement you can get them gathered around you. And that buffs your powers a lot more than having them running around sniping away. It also lets you kill them more efficiently, which is a form of damage mitigation.

Wait, you WANT things to go chase the Blaster instead of attacking your Invulnerability Scrapper? Do you think the Blaster is tougher than your Scrapper, do you just not care about teammates, or is there some other rationale here that I'm not thinking of? Do I need to read the thread carefully again?

I went cardiac and loaded up with I think 12 toggles. I also liked the extra resistance boost, pumping my smashing/lethal up to 60%. Nerve won't help your defense much since it only boosts defense powers, and you're getting most of your defense from bonuses.

Perhaps, but keep in mind that forum goers are probably not typical players. I don't imagine that we're totally extraordinary either, though. And I don't have reason to believe that my leveling builds, which are mostly done with SOs and maybe a few IOs here and there as conveninent, are any better than what typical players level with. Maybe they are, but I assume most players by now know the basics of an SO build, even if they don't put together serious IO builds.

So I would guess that the typical player is only rarely killed by their taunt aura, and is probably benefitting from it more than they're suffering from it. I would guess the typical player is pro taunt aura on Scrappers.

But I can only guess. I don't know any typical players or how they think.

Well, my Katana/Dark has accuracy, but Katana has more wiggle room due to the defense from Divine Avalanche. That and I threw endless amounts of influence at it until my problems went away.

But in general, yeah, you're right. Most high defense Dark Armor builds (including Katana and Broad Sword) that I've seen have both low recharge and low accuracy. Other things may be sacrificed too, like not having the fear or stun aura. It's hard to have everything.