Ultimus
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Well with Enhancement Boosters I can pretty much cap a sets damage with 4 slots now (even 3) and still have decent ACC and Recharge on it.Originally Posted by Vox Populi
The really ironic part is many (if not most) Tanker builds I see don't bother to six-slot their attacks. -
Quote:So Gauntlet is not that great in I-Trials?Originally Posted by Ironblade
Figure again. The AV's in the new trials are level 56. When the enemy is much higher level than you, Gauntlet and Taunt duration fall off dramatically.
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Quote:I see the star as the guy that runs in first not the guy dealing the most damage, so thats a matter of opinion I suppose.Originally Posted by Leo_G
Nothing, but that's a viable self preservation tactic. Doing that with Anger + crowd control is gaming an exploitable inherent to do more damage.
I don't suppose there's anything wrong with it, but are you admitting that's what you want for Tankers? To go from the guy that tries to herd as many foes to the guy that hangs back and lets the squishies put themselves in danger instead? It's less a 'team preservation tactic' and more a 'selfish want to be the star' and that mentality is something I don't take too kindly of, on a Tanker, a Brute, a Scrapper, a Dom or whatever.
I'm just looking to see if this concept is desirable for the AT... -
Quote:Lets look at this and see:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Right, but if the number isn't high, it won't cause more Threat generated. Doesn't that mean it would HAVE to put their damage higher than Brutes or Scrappers to generate more Threat in this way?
*sigh* I'm...with Arcana on this one.
It really does put out Stalkers, and in a situation like a BAF where a large group of Tankers can be beating down an AV, the Tankers will be doing more damage combined than all the remaining ATs.
6 Tankers, 5 of them are always not going to have aggro, right?
Then throw debuffs into the mix...yeah, not going to fly.
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A Scrapper is 1.2, or 2.4 with 100% enhancement value.
A Tank is .8, 1.6 with enhancement value, or 3.2 with this buff fully saturated. Ok they are doing Scrapper level damage here. Could easily decrease the value to 150% maybe 175%.
Brute is .75 with Full Fury (200%) and 100% enhancement value they are 300.
*******
This assumes no outside buffs, at the damage cap (Which you say you reach pretty easily by the way Johnny Butane)
A Tanker would be at 5 X .8 = 400
Brute would be .75 X 7.75
Scrapper would be 1.2 X 5 = 6.0
*****
Also regarding to Stalkers, remember the incoming changes to them. They are getting the Assassin Strike changes among others added. They will still be the burst kings by building those charges a la WOW Rogues. -
I think one key thing people are forgetting here is Gauntlet. A Tanker's attacks do AOE threat, multiple that by this new damage mechanic and a couple of hits and the spawn will be focused on you.
Yes you could theoretically have a really good Brute Taunt the group, maintain aggro and then do that... or you could just play Tank and invite a Blaster and do the same thing much easier? -
Quote:Sure why not? Some Brutes go in first regardless if there is a Tank there and they are WAY more squishy.Originally Posted by Vox Populi
I see a lot of Tanks standing back and waiting for the Brute to go in first.
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Quote:Whats to stop a Controller + Scrapper, Brute, or Blaster from doing the same thing?Originally Posted by Leo_G
Or a Dom, for that matter.
What's to stop you from just waiting for crowd control to make foe retaliation 0 then going to town without worrying about your Anger depleting? -
Quote:Also how is it any different then rewarding a Brute for tanking? According to everyone here, they aren't Tanks.Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Rewarding Tankers for not having aggro seems like a bad idea.
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Quote:You say half empty, I say half full.Originally Posted by Vox Populi
Rewarding Tankers for not having aggro seems like a bad idea.
I see it as a way of doing Burst Threat or sacrificing defenses (Taunt Aura) for more damage. -
@Arcana, Also if that number is too high it can be adjusted. The mechanic here is the main focus.
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Quote:Thing is that wouldn't happen, the second you got aggro (FS has a 2.67 animation time) that bar would be nearly depleted. That is unless someone took the entire alpha strike first.Originally Posted by Eldagore
yes please.
my double stacked rage IO'd inv/SS tank would love to TP into a crowd and two shot them with footstomp/fireball.
or in other words, what Arcana said above. -
Quote:I don't think Stalkers fit that anymore considering the changes coming to them.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I suggested a very similar mechanic for Stalkers, on the premise (that the devs acknowledged) that Stalkers are supposed to be burst damage specialists. If you make Tankers burst damage specialists, where does that leave Stalkers (and Blasters for that matter).
Also, if the buff starts at +200%, that means with no aggro Tankers will outdamage both Scrappers and Brutes at any level of team damage buff.
Also, the idea behind it Arcana is that if you are the only Tanker hitting a mob with such a high damage attack is going to pull threat meaning that after the first attack or two YOU will be targeted. The exception would be having another Tanker or two on the the team. Even then you could pull threat.
Edit: Also a Stalker would still be better in some ways, they can still control their burst via hide and Placate. A tanker would have a hard time controlling dropping their aggro. -
So I had this idea pop into my head today... would be REALLY interesting.
What if Tankers had inverse fury?
Call it:
ANGER
Power Description: The Tanker LOVES to be the center of attention, when he is not he is mad, so mad that his attacks will hit MUCH harder until he regains that aggro.
The Tanker has a bar that is just like Fury, only its filled up. When its filled up it gives a huge damage boost. NOTE: For this to work the Tanker damage cap would have to be raised an additional 200%.
At full bar, the buff gives 200% more damage.
*HOWEVER* as the Tanker is attacked the bar begins to deplete, very fast the more attacks made against the Tanker. Even if the Tanker is tanking a single opponent the bar will begin decreasing, if the Tanker aggros a group he will only have the damage bonus for the first few attacks and after that the bar will be nearly depleted.
If the Tanker is not being attacked the bar begins to refill at a steady rate.
What does this accomplish?
This gives the Tanker:
- Burst Damage: For initial Attacks the Tanker will deal huge burst damage
- Increase Sustained DPS when not being attacked. This allows multiple Tankers that aren't tanking to deal much more damage.
- Keep Tanker DPS at the same level when being attacked. Thus, a Tanker even being attacked by one opponent will see the bar begin to deplete.
- Increase Threat Generated. If the Tanker wants to grab the attention of an enemy, his attacks will deal tremendous damage and pull threat.
- The mechanics will also prevent the Tanker from being some sort of Uber Farmer because once he has aggro the bar depletes.
- Burst Damage: For initial Attacks the Tanker will deal huge burst damage
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So I had this idea pop into my head today... would be REALLY interesting.
What if Tankers had inverse fury?
Call it:
ANGER
Power Description: The Tanker LOVES to be the center of attention, when he is not he is mad, so mad that his attacks will hit MUCH harder until he regains that aggro.
The Tanker has a bar that is just like Fury, only its filled up. When its filled up it gives a huge damage boost. NOTE: For this to work the Tanker damage cap would have to be raised an additional 200%.
At full bar, the buff gives 200% more damage.
*HOWEVER* as the Tanker is attacked the bar begins to deplete, very fast the more attacks made against the Tanker. Even if the Tanker is tanking a single opponent the bar will begin decreasing, if the Tanker aggros a group he will only have the damage bonus for the first few attacks and after that the bar will be nearly depleted.
If the Tanker is not being attacked the bar begins to refill at a steady rate.
What does this accomplish?
This gives the Tanker:
- Burst Damage: For initial Attacks the Tanker will deal huge burst damage
- Increase Sustained DPS when not being attacked. This allows multiple Tankers that aren't tanking to deal much more damage.
- Keep Tanker DPS at the same level when being attacked. Thus, a Tanker even being attacked by one opponent will see the bar begin to deplete.
- Increase Threat Generated. If the Tanker wants to grab the attention of an enemy, his attacks will deal tremendous damage and pull threat.
- The mechanics will also prevent the Tanker from being some sort of Uber Farmer because once he has aggro the bar depletes.
- Burst Damage: For initial Attacks the Tanker will deal huge burst damage
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Quote:Does that work in Incarnate trial AVs?Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
How's that work in practice for you?
Because in theory, without a taunt magnitude, the brutes beat you for aggro every day of the week and twice on Thursdays.
Taunt is still great for the -75% range debuff. -
Quote:Figured range attacks, melee, etc would be enough to hold threat.Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Considering the way aggro needs to be controlled in the MoM specifically, no, I wouldn't drop it if I were you.
Stupid question: If you don't plan to taunt and control AV aggro on iTrials, why are you bringing a tank? -
Thinking about dropping taunt, how necessary is it on I-Trials? Thoughts?
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Quote:So it can be enhanced via catalyst? And it gives 20% res all? For 10 seconds? Is it 100% chance to proc? Or is it like 100% chance for 5% res for 20 sec but stacks?Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just that attack, which IMO is a little unfair because the Brute (and AFAIK Scrapper) one is global and not tied to the attack it's slotted in. The Stalker one, AFAIK, is tied to the attack though.
Personally, I tried it in Punch and then switched out to Haymaker for testing purposes.
It was not not hard to maintain stacked to max in either when attacking single targets.
It's a bit of a pain to juggle both it and Bruising if you have them on two different attacks, but mine is a special case because I can't slot the ATO/proc into Jab without a build revamp.
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Quote:How does the proc work? Does it make ALL of your attacks trigger it or just that one?Originally Posted by Caulderone
The new proc in the Tanker ATIO set will net you 5-15% Resist to All quite easily.
So, you can use Cardiac and still be at the 90% cap. -
1) What exactly does Taunt do? Generate a lot of threat?
2) Is the -Range unresistable? Will it effect Incarnate trial AVs?
3) What about the Taunt Duration? Is that worth slotting for? What exactly does that do?
4) How necessary is it for Tanking Incarnate Trials? -
Is this a recent change? Does it perhaps have anything to do with the SSA and Statesman's death? Or was it always like this?
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I PMed Synapse about Rebirth and the +HP and never got a response back. I asked if it was working as intended and showed how useless it was.
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Quote:Scrappers will get SS when Dominators get Illusion Control... AKA never or not without changes.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Their mitigation is not close to tankers.
30 minutes in mids will show you this.
Their damage does not exceed scrappers.
If you have a Brute and Scrapper using equivalent powersets, and the Brute is out-damaging you - its very likely that your build sucks.
Hint: Add persistent +damage bonuses. Musculature is a good start.
They're already midway between the two.
Last time you looked you must have had blinders on.
There is one Brute build out damaging Scrapper builds.
One build only.
SS/FA/Soul.
When Scrappers get SS, they will out-damage the Brute version. It won't even be a contest. -
Quote:You asked this question when I already stated it, streamline the four Tanking ATs (At least according to the character creator) and give them all the same hp/def/res caps. So I am willing to give up the extra Tanker HP in lieu of a higher max damage cap close to Brutes.Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Its not perceived as worthwhile, that's a perception issue.
Incarnate trials have worked hard to inflict punishment on players, and I think is definitely space there for the Tankers better mitigation to shine.
And people can think its worthless all they want, but asking for damage buffs without realistically looking at how powerful the base mitigation is, and how much that adds when you are making the build in the first place is, imo, not even remotely realistic.
That doesn't change the fact that the mitigation is already there.
If the mitigation is irrelevant beyond a certain point, than how much are tankers willing to give up for more damage?
If it is not irrelevant, well then why are people asking for even more in this thread?
Even tanker players cant seem to decide if they have too much or not enough mitigation. This entire thread constantly flops back and forth between those extremes.
Apparently it hasn't caught hold yet, since people keep posting how Tanker mitigation is both simultaneously irrelevant and not worth the lower offense as well as insufficient and Tankers should have even better mitigation.
So which is it, which one do you subscribe to?
I see him posting more of the same:
- Hand wavium of Tanker mitigation numbers by using unrealistic perma buffed res caps to make Brutes fit into his view of the game.
- Tankers deserve more damage due to that, and his idea of Tankers from comic books.
They would then be true inverses of each other, a Brute would need a lot of +HP and Def/Res buffs to achieve a Tanker's full mitigation level, a Tanker would need a LOT of damage buffs to achieve Brute level damage. -
Unstoppable does not have a recovery crash just end.