Ultimo_
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Quote:The only thing I'll reiterate is that you can't make a class "team-dependent" because then he'd be hampered solo. Since everyone solos, this would essentially take away at least half of the game for the hampered class.Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello Rigel_Kent,
I cannot fault your logic regarding game balance from an AT/Class based perspective. The traditional approach has been to create that "niche" for each class/AT choice that a player can choose. I, however, hold onto my hopes that the game can do this while also giving each AT/Combination its ability to feel "Super-Hero-ish" while solo.
So, I basically would disagree with pushing a more powerful support role, especially at the cost of being "Team-dependant". Others don't agree with that, which is fine, since we are all entitled to our personal 'vision' of the game. But the whole fact that Defenders have a "specifically" damage-based secondary screams to me that the original design was for us to support AND blast villains out of existence.
It also occurred to me, if the boost to defender's primary abilities was too great, it could tip the scales against the Controller AT to the point that their control's would be unecessary. After-all, why do you need to hold/sleep Villains who pose no credible threat to the team due to the defender(s) present. Its kind of a tricky see-saw.
Actually, because of the "Boon" of containment and how Controllers were already (arguably) sought after over a defender prior to it (containment), for game balance, it would make more sense(to me) to seriously "Nerf" controller numbers on their secondaries to get the result you (and others) are suggesting. Personally, I HATE nerfs, so I say just leave controllers alone, they work well now, but give Defenders a better Inherent AND something to balance their gameplay.
If it were up to me, all the classes would be identical with the only difference being that which defines their role on a team.
Think of it this way; everyone has medium stats.
Tankers are intended to get and hold aggro. Thus their inherent would generate aggro and boost their health. Notice this is helpful solo and on teams. Notice this also doesn't change his damage output.
Blasters/Scrappers are intended to do damage, so their inherent would boost damage output. This also is good solo and teamed. Note his health and resistance values need not be changed.
Defenders are intended to buff. Their inherent would make their buffs better than other classes that buff. This can mean buffing themselves, too. This can be via healing or buffs to other attributes (Def/Res/etc). Note their damage would be the same as Tankers. Note their health would be the same as Blasters/Scrappers. Being able to buff themselves would mean they could be like Tankers, but they wouldn't have the health or the aggro control, even if they might have better actual defenses.
Controllers are meant to control, so they would have an inherent designed to enhance their controls. Their damage, health and so on would be as good as everyone else's.
Anyhow, that's just me. -
Quote:Alas, it would mean taking a second attack!Originally Posted by Khenal_Baroney
You forgot tough and weave, for shame Ultimo. :P
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Quote:The point is that he has only one attack...Originally Posted by BlackBellatrix
I'd still take Foot Stomp at the very least. You need something more than taunt to hold their attention and Foot Stomp mitigates a lot of damage.
Also, this tank would be less than perfect vs. Psi damage.
I made a 'perfect tank' build using WP/Ice that was ridiculously survivable and mitigated damage really well. The problem is that the aggro cap is 16. I'm thinking, for Going Rogue, that Tanks should have a higher aggro cap of something like 25.
I'll explain. I did this when a team I was Tanking for told me I was stupid for not having Taunt, and that I was supposed to just soak up damage and taunt things - Tankers aren't supposed to attack...
It's meant as a joke.
My character is Inv/SS, so I just went with that again. Will does have a good rep though it's weaker at aggro control. -
For your amusement and (no doubt) bemusement, I present the PERFECT Team Tanker.
Discuss and enjoy
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Mr. Useless: Level 50 Technology Tanker
Primary Power Set: Invulnerability
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Leadership
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Resist Physical Damage -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(3), ResDam-I(3)
Level 1: Jab -- RechRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(5), Acc-I(5), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(7), Dmg-I(9)
Level 2: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(9), ResDam-I(11), ResDam-I(11)
Level 4: Dull Pain -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(13), Heal-I(13), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(15), RechRdx-I(17)
Level 6: Resist Elements -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(17), ResDam-I(19)
Level 8: Unyielding -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(19), ResDam-I(21), ResDam-I(21)
Level 10: Taunt -- Taunt-I(A), Taunt-I(23), Taunt-I(23)
Level 12: Resist Energies -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(25), ResDam-I(25)
Level 14: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(27), Jump-I(27)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(29), Heal-I(29)
Level 18: Invincibility -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), Taunt-I(31), Taunt-I(33), Taunt-I(33)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33), EndMod-I(34)
Level 22: Hover -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(34), Flight-I(34), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 24: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(37), Flight-I(37), EndRdx-I(37), EndRdx-I(39), EndRdx-I(39)
Level 26: Tough Hide -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(39), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 28: Recall Friend -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 30: Teleport Foe -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(40), Acc-I(40), Range-I(46), Range-I(48), Range-I(50)
Level 32: Unstoppable -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 35: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42)
Level 38: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Tactics -- EndRdx-I(A), ToHit-I(43), ToHit-I(43), ToHit-I(43)
Level 44: Vengeance -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(45), Heal-I(45), Heal-I(45), ToHit-I(46), ToHit-I(46)
Level 47: Group Fly -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), EndRdx-I(48)
Level 49: Team Teleport -- Empty(A)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
/pullsupchairandpopcorn -
Superspeeder, based on the Flash...
He also has Sands of Mu, so all his attacks are the super fast punches...
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Superspeeder: Level 50 Natural Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Super Reflexes
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(3), ToHitDeb-I(3), ToHitDeb-I(5), ToHitDeb-I(5)
Level 1: Focused Fighting -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(7), DefBuff-I(9)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(9), RechRdx-I(11), ToHitDeb-I(11), ToHitDeb-I(13), ToHitDeb-I(46)
Level 4: Focused Senses -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(13), DefBuff-I(15), DefBuff-I(15)
Level 6: Flurry -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(17), RechRdx-I(17), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(43)
Level 8: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 10: Swift -- Run-I(A), Run-I(21), Run-I(21)
Level 12: Practiced Brawler -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 14: Super Speed -- Run-I(A), Run-I(23), Run-I(23), EndRdx-I(25), EndRdx-I(25), EndRdx-I(27)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(27), Heal-I(29)
Level 18: Shadow Punch -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(29), ToHitDeb-I(31), ToHitDeb-I(31), ToHitDeb-I(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(33), EndMod-I(33)
Level 22: Whirlwind -- KBDist-I(A), KBDist-I(43), KBDist-I(43)
Level 24: Quickness -- Run-I(A), Run-I(33), Run-I(34)
Level 26: Agile -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(34), DefBuff-I(34)
Level 28: Dodge -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 30: Lucky -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 32: Confront -- Range-I(A)
Level 35: Evasion -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(39)
Level 38: Elude -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(39), RechRdx-I(39)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 44: Focused Accuracy -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(45), ToHit-I(45), ToHit-I(46), ToHit-I(46)
Level 47: Energy Torrent -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(48), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Stimulant -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
And a flyer, based on the Angel...
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Flyer: Level 50 Mutation Tanker
Primary Power Set: Willpower
Secondary Power Set: Super Strength
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Mind Over Body -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(3), ResDam-I(3), ResDam-I(45)
Level 1: Jab -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(7), Dsrnt-I(46), Dsrnt-I(46), Dsrnt-I(46)
Level 2: Fast Healing -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(5), Heal-I(5)
Level 4: Haymaker -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(7), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 6: Swift -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(11), Flight-I(13)
Level 8: Air Superiority -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(21), Dmg-I(21)
Level 10: Indomitable Will -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(23), DefBuff-I(23), DefBuff-I(25)
Level 12: Rise to the Challenge -- EndRdx-I(A), Heal-I(25), Heal-I(29), ToHitDeb-I(29), ToHitDeb-I(45), ToHitDeb-I(45)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(15), Flight-I(15), EndRdx-I(17), EndRdx-I(17), EndRdx-I(19)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(37), Heal-I(37)
Level 18: Heightened Senses -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(36)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(34), EndMod-I(34)
Level 22: Knockout Blow -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(31), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(33), Dmg-I(33), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 24: Quick Recovery -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(31), EndMod-I(31)
Level 26: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A), Jump-I(27), Jump-I(27)
Level 28: Rage -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(43), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 30: High Pain Tolerance -- ResDam-I(A), ResDam-I(37), ResDam-I(39)
Level 32: Strength of Will -- ResDam-I(A)
Level 35: Kick -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(39), Dmg-I(39), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(43)
Level 38: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(40), ResDam-I(40), ResDam-I(40)
Level 41: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42), DefBuff-I(42)
Level 44: Resurgence -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Taunt -- Taunt-I(A), Taunt-I(48), Taunt-I(48)
Level 49: Focused Accuracy -- ToHit-I(A), ToHit-I(50), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
I would have made him a Super Reflexes Scrapper, but there's no hand to hand set besides Martial Arts, and it just doesn't look quite right... -
Heh... Yeah, by the time he gets his epic armor, he'll have truly Tankerish numbers, with over 71% resistance to smashing and lethal, and over 31% Defense to everything.
Of course, he'll still do abysmal damage...
[color:#1E90FF]Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]http://www.cohplanner.com/[/color]
[color:#FFA500]Click this DataLink to open the build![/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Technaught:[/color][color:#1E90FF] Level 50 Technology Defender[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Primary Power Set: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Force Field[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Secondary Power Set: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Energy Blast[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Power Pool: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Flight[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Power Pool: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Fitness[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Power Pool: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Fighting[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Power Pool: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Leadership[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Ancillary Pool: [/color][color:#1E90FF]Power Mastery[/color]
[color:#1E90FF]Hero Profile:[/color]
[color:#32CD32]Level 1:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Personal Force Field[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](3)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](3)
[color:#32CD32]Level 1:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Power Bolt[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](5)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](5)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](7)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](7)
[color:#32CD32]Level 2:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Power Blast[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](9)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](46)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](50)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](50)
[color:#32CD32]Level 4:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Energy Torrent[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](9)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](11)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](11)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](13)
[color:#32CD32]Level 6:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Hover[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](13)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](15)
[color:#32CD32]Level 8:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Air Superiority[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](15)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](17)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](17)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](19)
[color:#32CD32]Level 10:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Hurdle[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Jump[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#32CD32]Level 12:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Dispersion Bubble[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](19)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](21)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](21)
[color:#32CD32]Level 14:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Fly[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](23)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Flight[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](23)
[color:#32CD32]Level 16:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Boxing[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](25)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](25)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](27)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](27)
[color:#32CD32]Level 18:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Health[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Heal[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Heal[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](29)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Heal[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](29)
[color:#32CD32]Level 20:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Stamina[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndMod[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]EndMod[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](31)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]EndMod[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](31)
[color:#32CD32]Level 22:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Tough[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](31)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](33)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](33)
[color:#32CD32]Level 24:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Weave[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](33)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](34)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](34)
[color:#32CD32]Level 26:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Power Burst[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](34)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](36)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](36)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](36)
[color:#32CD32]Level 28:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Repulsion Bomb[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](37)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](37)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](37)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](39)
[color:#32CD32]Level 30:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Maneuvers[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](39)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](39)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]DefBuff[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](40)
[color:#32CD32]Level 32:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Assault[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#32CD32]Level 35:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Explosive Blast[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](40)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](40)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](42)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](42)
[color:#32CD32]Level 38:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Nova[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](42)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](43)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](43)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](43)
[color:#32CD32]Level 41:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Conserve Power[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]RechRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]RechRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](45)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]RechRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](45)
[color:#32CD32]Level 44:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Temp Invulnerability[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](45)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](46)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]ResDam[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](46)
[color:#32CD32]Level 47:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Total Focus[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](48)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](48)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](48)[color:#FFA500], [/color][color:#FFC000]Dmg[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](50)
[color:#32CD32]Level 49:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Force Bubble[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]EndRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#1E90FF]------------[/color]
[color:#32CD32]Level 1:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Brawl[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Acc[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#32CD32]Level 1:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Sprint[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]Jump[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#32CD32]Level 2:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Rest[/color] [color:#1E90FF]--[/color] [color:#FFC000]RechRdx[/color][color:#FFC000]-I[/color](A)
[color:#32CD32]Level 1:[/color] [color:#1E90FF]Vigilance[/color]
(EDIT: Hm, not sure what's up with this...) -
Quote:Actually, FF is possibly the least boring set because there's less maintenance involved. Healers are constantly healing, FFers bubble once every four minutes, leaving you free to do other things.Originally Posted by Mechafang
So Forcefield....
How bad is it? Am I likely to die of boredom by level 5?
The reason Im asking is I want to play as the Starship Uber Biscuit and do the whole shields up, pew pew pew thing.
I was thinking of Sonic/ too but then I wouldn't have access to PFF
Just don't expect to solo much until later level. Between the low damage and the low personal defenses you'll be leveling at a snail's pace (and likely visiting the Hospital regularly unless you're quick on the PFF - which is a godsend). -
Quote:Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello Ultimo,
Sorry to hear about the endurance issues your having on this character.
One thing I do know about FF's Dispersion and Sonic's Dispersion bubbles is that they are pretty expensive.
They are not quite as bad as running two toggles, but darn close.
Having played both Sonic and Force Field, I would say you would be better off with either
Combat Jumping + Dispersion + Maneuvers (Post SO) or, if you are a flyer
Hover + Dispersion + Maneuvers.
Then take your Epic shield when it opens up. Or Assault if you get enough IO sets slotted.
I personally like tough and weave too, but with the Dispersion bubble being so costly, I would focus on just +Def and IOs in order to get tiered mitigation. All the trouble to work Tough into a FF build seems like a great deal of endurance trouble.
Interesting... I'll consider your suggestions...
The real reason for Tough being in the build is that I wanted Weave. That, and it's thematic (the character is supposed to be wearing body armor, so Tough fits the concept...).
As for IOs, I can't even afford SOs, fancy IOs are totally out of the question. I already bankrupted myself getting L35 generic IOs in all my critical powers. -
Quote:I didn't say that they cost the same amount of endurance. I also didn't point out that the Defender gets more benefit from his pool toggles than the Scrapper.Originally Posted by Umbral
The manner in which it is misleading is simple: you're suggesting that every toggle costs the exact same amount of endurance. The assumption would be that 4 toggles costs half as much as 8 toggles. This isn't always, nor is is often ever true.
And again, the toggles aren't the issue. It's the fact that the attacks use twice as much endurance. The toggles just slow down recovery enough that the attacks leave the character drained.Quote:All of those toggles running together cost 2.44 end/sec base. All of your Defender's toggles running together cost 1.56 end/sec base. The defender is only running 56% more end/sec in toggle costs than the Defender, and, interestingly enough, 3 of those 8 toggles operate to increase damage dealing capability (and thereby end efficiency for killing) rather than direct survivability.
I wasn't trying to make it sound like anything other than this: the Scrapper runs twice as meany toggles. The amount of endurance may not be twice as large, but that doesn't change how many toggles he runs. The only point I was making was that the Scrapper uses more endurance on toggles than the Defender.Quote:The entire point I'm making here is that, even if you didn't intend it, you were trying to make it sound like the Scrapper was running through twice as much endurance per second from toggles as the Defender was (re: "HALF as many as my Scrapper") and still getting better endurance efficiency than the Scrapper. The manner in which you made the comparison (re: "# of toggles : # of toggles" rather than the more appropriate "end/sec : end/sec") generated a flawed argument, which simply demonstrated your poor analytical skills, which virtually everyone already knows about and cites as to why your analyses are fundamentally flawed.
And again, I've posted NO NUMBERS HERE. You're still arguing another thread.Quote:Actually, I mean that no one believes you. Even when you try to put out numbers to validate your personal experience, you get those numbers blatantly wrong (and everyone repeatedly brings forth the numbers to prove you wrong each time). The problem with all of your personal experiences is that every time you've brought them up, you've suffered enormously from perception bias without ever doing anything to mitigate or even mention it while simultaneously using automatically skewed comparisons to further make your point. -
Quote:Yeah, I have Tough to provide that bit of resistance to attacks that DO hit me (since I have such low health). Sometimes I do leave it turned off, simply to conserve endurance. The point is none of my other characters have to do this. My Tanker can run all his toggles indefinitely and runs out of endurance only if I'm careless with attacking. My Scrapper can run 4 toggles and never has to turn them off. My Controller has trouble, but his toggles are offensive (Rad), and he hasn't hit L20 yet, so no Stamina.Originally Posted by Tatmia
Yes, proper slotting does mean that you focus on your attacks for endurance. . first. I still put end reductions in any toggles.
I understand the weave/manuevers to get close to the cap on a bubbler, but why the tough? Just to reduce damage that does get in?
Cat is right, 3 white minions should not require anything from a primary or pools.
The foes you fight makes a big difference to whether you need all the toggles. Some minions are no threat, but many (especially now that im in the 30s) can be a serious threat if they hit me. Nemesis and Crey can do close to 100 points of damage per hit.
As I say, however, the real problem is the imbalance of endurance usage. A Scrapper uses around 5 endurance for an attack and might do 100 damage. A Defender would use the same 5 endurance, but will do only 40-50 damage, meaning he's attacking twice as often. That means longer fights (exposing the Defender to more damage) and more endurance used. -
Quote:This is precisely it. Well said.Originally Posted by Mr_Body
Toggles will not drain your Endurance bar-- ATTACKS drain the endurance bar. Unless you are toggleman. So, as a defender it comes down to endurance efficiency with those attacks. And they are not very efficient at all. High end cost, low damage, piss poor inherent all add up. Probably simplest solution-- give defenders a damage boost.
And exactly why is Ultimo running 4 toggles? For survivalibility of course. Low HP and lack of being able to properly defend yourself with your own primary is a very real issue with defenders. Again, simple to solve? Maybe not, but more HP gives a defender more time to live. -
Quote:For the reasons pointed out, fighting three minions DOES often require running four toggles, but this is beside the point. Other ATs are able to fight while running toggles, and often MORE of them, and don't suffer the same problems as the Defender. However, it's not because of the toggles, it's because the attacks are producing less damage for the same endurance, WHICH I"VE SAID BEFORE. I included the information regarding the toggles because if I didn't you would accuse me of leaving things out.
Fighting 3 minions doesn't require you to run 4 toggles.
This is garbage. I have NEVER presented any falsehoods of any kind. I take GREAT offense at the implication and will not tolerate any such insults. The thread you refer to had NOTHING to do with Endurance, but rather the inability of buffing Defenders to buff themselves.Quote:As far as I remember Ultimo_ already posted the same kind of concerns, and people proved he was lying about his reported numbers. He then backpedaled... and proceeded to repost the same original wrong numbers in other topics.
Yeah, I did use Energy Torrent in the past, but I found myself running out of endurance even BEFORE finishing off a single Minion. Thus, I stopped using it.Quote:Don't have the numbers here but I think most AOE start to beat single target blasts efficiency wise from 3 targets and up.
Too much end for 1 or 2, but good for 3.
Been a while I didn't check precisely, but you might want too.
Also double check what toggle you really need to take down 3 minions, as other said (even if they use less end than attacks, using a lot of toggle still adds on top of attacks).
What the hell is so misleading?Quote:This is horribly misleading to say, especially since there isn't a single standard toggle cost. Tough and Weave each cost .325 end/sec. Dispersion Bubble costs .52 end.sec. Maneuvers costs .39 end/sec.
Depending on what build Ultimo is specifically using with his Scrapper, every single one of the toggles that he's running is probably going to cost less than any of the toggles that he's running on his Defender. Not to mention that his Scrapper (Claws/Regen, iirc) actually has several other reasons for vastly increased endurance sustainability (Claws/* has 25% lower base end costs, */Regen has only a single toggle that only costs .21 end/sec and Quick Recovery to make endurance even easier).
I run FOUR TOGGLES. I listed the FOUR TOGGLES. What's so misleading?
My SCrapper runs EIGHT TOGGLES. That means the Defender is running HALF AS MANY. What's misleading? Is is because I didn't list the Scrapper's toggles?
Ok, he runs Deflection, Battle Agility, Against All Odds, Tough, Weave, Manuevers, Tactics and Assault. That's EIGHT.
Running all those toggles, he runs out of endurance very fast, but is still able to defeat a single minion (though not much more than that) because he does enough damage for the exerted endurance.
You mean you HOPE no one beleives me. Why you would hope that is beyond me. You may notice I didn't put out ANY NUMBERS. I just described what my PERSONAL EXPERIENCE HAS BEEN.Quote:It's information like this that Ultimo is great at putting out, which is why no one really believes anything he says: he'll put out some numbers that, at first glance, look as if they might be accurate. Sometimes they even are (in only the most general terms). The problem is that they're interpreted completely and totally wrong just to make his point seem more valid. I've yet to see any of his "analysis" or "conclusions" withstand any degree of scrutiny. -
Quote:Just to touch on the endurance issue...Originally Posted by Biospark
Hello StratoNexus,
I have been playing Defenders alot lately, and just to mix things up I broke out my Main Blaster (Energy/Devices) and my main Scrapper (MA/WP), just to remind me what they could do.
I think that I finally agree with you on this suggestion.
The main issues that defenders have (as compared to playing other ATs) is;
A) Status effects
B) Kill speed is on the slow side (not necassarily a problem, just a comparison)
C) Endurance Use (even after Stamina is heavier than other ATs)
Well, more HPs doesnt do much about the three things I listed, but I agree with your assessment that Defenders (Unlike Blasters and Controllers) tend to live closer to the action and could use the extra HPs for teaming. The argument by some that certain powersets dont really need a HP boost, just means that those powersets will not notice any difference really, but sets like Empathy and Kinetics should benefit quite nicely.
As far as the increase in damage base, It WILL help in all of the 3 items I listed above.
Taking down mobs faster reduces the risk of status (especially repeated effects).
Obviously Kill speed will improve, but here is the big one for me, Endurance usage will be lessened considerably.
Killing with even 1 less blast could make a large impact on endurance issues.
The final straw that brought me over to your side occurred when reading a post about ALL the changes that have occurred AFTER Defender ratios were nerfed to 0.65 (Specifically "Enhancement Diversification" and "Global Defense Reduction"). I realized that your modest increase would certainly not bring defenders back to their hey-day of game launch, but would add quite a nice dose of "FUN" in playing them.
I realize that these 2 events hit all ATs, but I am also willing to say that Defenders (Who should be the best at defending themselves) got side-swiped by these changes.
So, Thanks for posting this idea, along with all the others who agree with it.
P.S. I also happen to agree with others regarding Defender / Tanker numbers.
I would be happy with the damage mod being returned to its original 0.75 value.
And the HPs restorred as well to their original amount.
I also still believe that a good Vigilance change would be a stacking endurance reduction triggered off our blasts.
This would further lessen the endurance issues at the same time as convincing more defenders to use their blasts.
Tonight I was playing my L32 FF Defender. He has a single EndRedx in all of his powers, and three slotted Stamina (all IOs). All his attacks have one Accuracy IO. This is usually enough to provide a 95% chance to hit (yet, according to herostats, I average around 60-80%...).
I run with four toggles (HALF as many as my Scrapper) - Tough, Weave, Dispersion Bubble and Manuevers. I'd LIKE to run Assault, too, but the endurance cost is prohibitive. As it is, I run out of endurance in EVERY fight, with EVERY minion (white conn).
That is, I see a group of three Minions. I hit them with Dispersion Bomb, then move in and blast them one at a time (since the AOEs use so much endurance). By the time I defeat one minion, I'm at a sliver of endurance, and I have to stop fighting. If I PFF, I'll be fine. If not, I'll be chewed up for several minutes while the endurance SLOWLY recovers. Doing this for every minion is VERY tedious.
I don't know which dev it is that thinks this is fun, but he and I have VERY different views on the subject. -
Quote:Quite so. Well said.Originally Posted by Calash
There is some moderation going on in reference to the tags. Some "less than helpful" ones have been removed.
However if they are going to make it into anything more than "Forum PVP" the moderation needs to be stepped up a couple of notches. Otherwise just turn it off and be done with the headache. -
Indeed, every time I go to my control panel, I'm confronted by a list of insulting comments assigned to me (even though I turned off Rep). I've sent several messages to whoever is in charge, but haven't had any reply.
As you say, the idea is fine. The problem is we can't trust people to use it properly. It's just become another way to attack people, and anonymously, at that. -
Can we dispense with Reputation and Tags already?
Based on what I've seen so far, Reputation is meaningless, as the cliques go around boosting each other and posting insulting comments anonymously and permanently.
The Tags are just as bad, being an anonymous way to insult and derogate people's ideas and comments.
There's enough bad blood on the forums already, do we really need more? -
Quote:Yeah, that's basically how I play all the time, though I carry almost exclusively blues and purples (mainly blues). Endurance issues in this game are... disappointing. I don't know what the devs were thinking.Originally Posted by Miss_Abyss
In the lower levels, definitely use inspirations. Instead of going reds & blues, at that level, I'd go 4 purples, a green, and 3 blues. If you can get past the first part of the "punch" (by using purples), then once you have him locked down, you'll have him, so the reds are unecessary. However, without stamina, you'll need the blues... and need the green to heal back in case of a lucky shot.
-
Quote:I disagree... Swinging is something many, many characters use in comics, just as energy blasts are something many, many characters use.Originally Posted by Prof_Backfire
No, not really. Energy Blast is very generic. Swinging is not.
-
I've been working on a mission for the AE, one that is set in one of the Forest maps (Forest 1). The information says it will support 23 Boss/Patrol/Ambush details, yet it won't let me put in that number.
There are 6 bosses and no ambushes. That should leave room for 17 Patrols, yet it will only let me place 8.
I have placed 20 Allies on the map (it says it can support 20).
Is there a reason I'm not seeing that it won't allow me to place the 23 enemies? -
Yeah, you could rationalize the swing line over water in any number of ways... Maybe my character is a stellar entity and he's actually swinging from the moon... Maybe he's a mystical shaman, and he's swinging from a dimensional locus in the sky... And so on...
The AOE thing in the pool idea is neat, but not quite in keeping with other sets. The format has been...
1) Minor Travel power (eg Hover)
2) Attack or Defense power (eg Air Sup./Combat Jump)
3) Main Travel power (eg Flight)
4) Group Travel power (eg Group Flight)
Anyhoo... -
Actually, I once suggested it be made almost exactly like SJ in reverse... And all my charcters that should be swinging haev SJ since it captures the "feel" better than other powers.
How about this...
Gadgets Pool
1) Climbing Line - a grappling hook that allows you to move up, in a more or less straight line.
2) Tangle Net - use your grappling line to entangle your enemy. - Immobilize with a chance to Hold.
3) Swing Line - Like SJ in reverse...
4) Not sure what to put here
Just off the cuff... -
Well, that's what I was after, I just wondered if they DID actually bloom. I didn't want to play him for 30 levels to find him as weak as he was at the start.
The irony is that I originally made this character as a Mastermind. -
Presumably he would swing from the same things he would in CO. The issue as I understand it is that the engine in CoH can't support it (which astonishes me, since this is a seminal power in comic books - I mean, how could they design a comic book game without it...).
-
Quote:Yeah, it was an AE mission, after all. At that level you wouldn't be seeing EBs in the regular game (though, because the enemy is built as an EB, he had actually scaled down to being a Boss for the mission when solo). The point was, I foresaw this situation being the case throughout the character's career.Originally Posted by Da_Captain
Dom's are real squishy that early in the game, at level 6, you have about what 8 insperation slots?
Honestly, I have never taken on an EB that low with any toon, wouldn't really recommend it, but it's your 15$.
Some advice, pack six purples and two reds. When you fight the EB pop three of the purples and one of the reds and try to hope and pray that is enough to not get hit, you won't be at the softcap but you will be pretty high in def.
The biggest difference between soloing an EB with a dom and a scrapper is that even at low levels, scrappers have better defenses to take on things like that since it is part of their secondary.
He's meant to be a serious classic AV style villain in the mould of Dr. Doom, but if he's going to be unable to defend himself, he's not going to achieve anything resembling his concept. -
Quote:First of all, enough hostility and namecalling.Originally Posted by Southern_Comfort
To be more clear. As a low level dominator dealing with an EB it is in your best interest to use your st hold. You're inspi tray should have reds and blues. Hold the EB, eat some reds................attack the EB with st damage while recycling st hold to keep it off you.... reapply hold... eat more reds.. apply st attack... Repeat this cycle til its dead.
The end.
Second, I DID use the st hold on him (Cinders), and he ignored it and used his ranged attack (Claws - I don't know what it's called offhand) which did 118 damage (I have 158, so I had 40 left). I was dead before I could retreat or attack again.