Turbo_Ski

I would like to add underperformance by data-mining to that. If majority of the people that play the set skip all the same powers consistently, then there is probably something that needs to be fixed about the set.

It's the same problem FF has, powers like Sonic Repulsion are so situational, annoying, and counter-productive that it feels like a major slap in the face when you consider there are only 9 powers to pick from. Having multiple powers like this or redundant powers (EX: clarity) devalues the set greatly in most people's eyes. This is a game of alts as well, the playerbase in general isn't unaware of the performance of other support sets, which widens the gap even more.

I think people in general on the internet have very poor reading comprehension. What one might write as, "TA isn't performing as well as Rad," somehow gets read as, "TA isn't functional and useless." Couple this with how some people will actively seek out sets they know are weak to outperform on them, then later actively defend the set is fine when they have convinced themselves it is by either grossly exceeding what an average player can do or deluding themselves into thinking it is.

The thing I find most underperform about FF is that complete lack of offensive capability in the slightest. Which is fine if we were still back at the game release, but they've designed every other support set to at least minimal amount of offensive effects. Couple it with the often avoided powers, the set looks really out of date in this environment.

I do think the days of "Healer" and TA thread crossovers is behind us. Problem though is every individual TA power underperforms compared to what is average for other support sets, and it takes twice as many TA powers to get the same effect of one power does in other sets. With only 9 powers to pick from that is a very heavy flaw that can't be ignored, and TA really doesn't have enough synergy amongst it's powers to overcome this.

Not saying make disruption arrow just like tar patch, we're saying make the power equivalent in worth both numerically and in the number of effects. Why does Tar patch do 10% more -res, slow, and come earlier than Disruption arrow which only has -res? Couldn't you give something like -Def or -Tohit to justify the difference?

I can't even count the number of times I've had this experience over that last 7 years only on the Defender and Kheldian forums alone. I remember when anyone who said Kheldians were less than perfect prior to their overhaul got crucified, even though they were clearly underperforming and the least played AT in the game. Same thing happens all the time with FF, Sonic, and TA threads in the defender forums.

Shall we compare to Dark miasma? Tar patch does a mass slow and -res in one power where TA does in 2 powers, Glue arrow and Disruption arrow. Darkest night does -dmg and -tohit where as TA does it in two powers with inferior numbers, Flash and PGA. You see where I'm going here?

It also doesn't help that all the debuff values for TA powers are bad, really bad. Flash only does -6.25% tohit compared to -18.75% in darkest night. likewise PGA only does -31.25% dmg compared to darkest night's -37.5%. Disruption (20%) vs Tar patch (30%), Glue (-20%) vs howling twilight (-62.5%), Flash (6.25%) vs Fearsome stare (18.75%).

If they want to fix the TA set, they'll have to either buff the debuff values to be on par or higher than other debuff sets and/or combine Flash, PGA, Glue, and Acid into 2 separate powers.

If they just went with buffing, this is what I would do:
- Flash arrow should be increase to 13% while still being unresistable, should would make it 3-4% less than FF ally bubbles when slotted. At minimum should be a base of 11% unresistable.
- Acid and Disruption should be -30% not -20%, since that's the standard for debuff sets and TA completely lacks dmg and recharge buffs.
- Glue arrow should have -90% recharge not -20%
- PGA either be increased to -40% OR have it's sleep effect changed to a mag 1 hold that always hits. It also should have a non-stacking -500% regen effect.
- Remove the -recovery and -end on self effect of EMP arrow cause it has no right being there in the first place. The long recharge is more than enough of a handicap.
- add a decent damage DoT to entangling arrow to make it worth firing.
- make Ice Arrow's recharge 10 not 18 OR trim the cast time down to 1 and make the recharge 14. Also add some minor cold damage to it, enabling more IO proc options.

you got the resistance part right but you seem to not understand that damage buffs increase damage from the base damage, not from the final amount.

here is scrapper Hack (broadsword) with 95% dmg from enhancements.
base damage (x) = 55.6102
melee AT mod (y) = 1.125
Damage scalar (z) = 1.64
Raw dmg (RD) = x * y * z = 102.60
Enh dmg (ED) = RD*( 1 + 0.95 ) = 200.07

Let's put it up against an even lvl AV (+5 con) with 30% damage resistance to Lethal.
Purple patch mod (PP) = 0.3
FINAL = ED * PP * ( 1 - 0.3 ) = 42.01 dmg dealt

ok now let's calculate it with a -20% res debuff.
FINAL = ED * PP * [ 1 - ( 0.3 - PP * 0.2 * ( 1 - 0.3 ) ) ] = 44.54 dmg dealt

ok now with no res debuffs but a +20% dmg buff instead.
buffed damage (BD) = RD * ( 1 + 0.95 + 0.2 ) = 220.59
FINAL = BD * PP * ( 1 - 0.3 ) = 46.32 dmg dealt

As I've just proven, a -20% res debuff is not equivalent to a +20% dmg buff.

You were responding to a quote talking about TA's effectiveness on Incarnate trial AVs.

Don't know where you're getting your numbers but here are the in-game numbers (that also match Mid's).

OSA (Solo)
base damage = 75 ticks * 3.34 = 250.5 damage
base recharge = 180 seconds
cast time = 1.16 seconds
base dps = 250.5 / (180+1.16) = 1.38
3xrechg/3xdmg SO slotted dps + 30% vig = 563 / (92.34+1.16) = 6.02

OSA (teamed)
slotted dps = 487.8 / (92.34+1.16) = 5.22

Scorch
base damage = 71.33
base recharge = 3
cast time = 1
base dps = 71.33 / (3+1) = 17.83
acc/3xdmg/2xrechg SO slotted dps = 142/(1.8+1) = 50.71

Fire Sword Circle
base damage = 122.02
base recharge = 20
cast time = 2.67
base dps = 122.02 (20+2.67) = 5.38
acc/3xdmg/2xrechg SO slotted dps = 247/(12+2.67) = 16.84

scorch/OSA(solo) dps = 50.71 / 6.02 = 8.42 times higher
scorch/OSA(team) dps = 50.71 / 5.22 = 9.72 times higher
FSC/OSA(solo) dps = 16.84 / 6.02 = 2.8 times higher
FSC/OSA(team) dps = 16.84 / 5.22 = 3.23 times higher

That should clarify my previous post's numbers and statement.

If you think Scrappers and Blasters don't contribute much in incarnate trials, then I feel sorry for you because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I think you don't understand how the purple patch and resistance debuff calculations work when talking about AVs, especially incarnate AVs. You're really only looking at 42.5% or less with purple patch and that's assuming the AV has 0% resistance to start with. 10% resistance seems to be a pretty common minimum, so you're really looking at 38.25% resistance debuff or less. Also 11 seconds is about the overlap time on disruption so you're only doing 38.25% for 11 seconds and 25.2% for 19 seconds, that's 29.99% overall.


As for the scrapper comment, the lowest tier scrapper attacks put out roughly 8 times more dps than OSA does, that's without criticals included. You are pretty much not bringing any significant raw damage from the TA set or your secondary for that matter since you have to take significant time out to reapply your debuffs. The force multiplying only makes a difference if your league is alive and bringing enough damage to make the multiplying worthwhile for the lack of your own damage. Since TA is awful at both damage and mitigation, I would gladly take the sustained dps of a scrapper over a 30% or less damage increase for the entire league.

Ice earplugs

ah WL farming in KR, going from lvl 1 to 20 in less than an hour.

detailed info under power info in-game. You can also do this from the character creation screen by hitting the "I" button on the power selection tab.

ah good ol' -fly -jump effects.


I was one in the other thread that said TA was very mediocre in incarnate trials, pretty much for the same reason trickshooter gave. The debuff values are VERY weak, the controls are very weak, it requires double the amount of powers to achieve what other sets do in one, and oil slick's damage when lit is the only thing it brings to a team. That said I would rather bring a damage AT over a TA, as there is no discernible difference in survivalability and the damage AT will do more damage overall due to higher base values and higher dmg caps.

That's the problem, all TA has going for it is Oil Slick. Which honestly is pretty anemic compared to what other support sets do late game as a whole. Disruption is okay, but comparatively it still bring less than what other AoE -res support powers do since it has no secondary effect nor is it stronger of a debuff. The rest of TA set is just plain bad, so bad that I'm not exaggerating when I say that PGA/Glue/Flash/EMPA/IA are completely useless in trials. Which is my problem with TA in general, it has one single really great power and a bunch of mediocre ones.