Just as a general thing if your goal is to provide support at level 50 I'd advise against a Force Field Defender. The fact is that at level 50 (especially in Incarnate content) there are so many defense buffs floating around that a Force Fielder is somewhat superfluous. Even ignoring IOs you tend to get things like stacked Maneuvers, stacked other Defense buffs and even Barrier driving a good chunk of the team to the defense softcap even before you add in the Force Field buffs.
Now if you want to play a Force Fielder for concept reasons go for it but I suspect you may end up feeling a little bit superfluous at 50 (FF does rock at lower and mid levels though). One option to consider might be Traps, I think that would still fit reasonably well with the ex-Nemesis concept (maybe he's special ops and has gear Nemesis doesn't regularly use?). Traps has FFG which means you are still giving your team a good chunk of Defense and Mez Protection but you add in several other good general-purpose debuffs notably -resistance (Acid Mortar), -regen (PGT) and some crowd control (PGT and Caltrops).
Regarding medicine on a Force Fielder (or a Trapper), it is useful to take Aid Self for soloing but most of the time you won't really need Aid Other on a team. Between your buffs and those of your teammates people are unlikely to take much damage and even if they do it'll probably be dealt with by someone else (either with inspirations or another power) before Aid Other animates.
Let me say that I have a toon with every single powerset in the game except emp (used to have two, finally deleted them years later because I just don't enjoy it). I don't delete any toons (started in i3, maybe have deleted 4), but my FF/ is dangerously close to being deleted. I know I will get blasted by some, but it feels like a very, very useless toon. I use a total of 4 powers from the primary, and they aren't that helpful to the teams at all. (Yes, every powerset can be beneficial, I know). If there was one powerset on a defender I would tell you to stay away from, it would be bubbles. (On an MM, go for it). I would even build an emp defender, which I hate, before bubbles.
(If you are wondering why she isn't deleted yet, it is just because I love the way she looks, her costume, etc.)
Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
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That's a pretty good point. Ideally, the character should be able to provide support at level 50 and during low-mid game as well. Traps seems like a good set. I've never actually tried it because the cast times for some of the powers seem fairly long. Is that noticeable when you are on teams and trials? It seems as though you would just finish putting out your mortar or just finish laying your PGT and half the spawn would already be dead. Although, in those cases it could be argued that you don't need the PGT or mortar anyway I suppose.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Just as a general thing if your goal is to provide support at level 50 I'd advise against a Force Field Defender. The fact is that at level 50 (especially in Incarnate content) there are so many defense buffs floating around that a Force Fielder is somewhat superfluous. Even ignoring IOs you tend to get things like stacked Maneuvers, stacked other Defense buffs and even Barrier driving a good chunk of the team to the defense softcap even before you add in the Force Field buffs.
Now if you want to play a Force Fielder for concept reasons go for it but I suspect you may end up feeling a little bit superfluous at 50 (FF does rock at lower and mid levels though). One option to consider might be Traps, I think that would still fit reasonably well with the ex-Nemesis concept (maybe he's special ops and has gear Nemesis doesn't regularly use?). Traps has FFG which means you are still giving your team a good chunk of Defense and Mez Protection but you add in several other good general-purpose debuffs notably -resistance (Acid Mortar), -regen (PGT) and some crowd control (PGt and Caltrops). |
Sonic Resonance would perhaps be the most direct replacement for Force Field, but does it have alternate animations? IIRC, it's locked into yelling. I guess with some of the costume options that could be attributed to some sort of sonic device though.
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
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Yes, for the most part, many of Traps' powers wouldn't even be cast before half the mob is dead. On a large, good team, it would be hard to get good use of your powers. Now when it comes to the AVs, Traps would be great support.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
Traps seems like a good set. I've never actually tried it because the cast times for some of the powers seem fairly long. Is that noticeable when you are on teams and trials? It seems as though you would just finish putting out your mortar or just finish laying your PGT and half the spawn would already be dead. Although, in those cases it could be argued that you don't need the PGT or mortar anyway I suppose.
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Global Name: Denver Nugget
Playing since i3 on 8 servers
Just don't run around going "LEEVUHHL 18 HEAL0R LFT" and we will get along just fine. I'd pick a classic buffy set like Force Field or Sonic, something where with minimal active use of your primary you can bolster the team's survival, and still focus on your secondary. The debuffs that Defender blasts apply are downright insane, with Sonic Blast and Dark Blast being solid choices to completely break an opponent.
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This is a concern with most debuff focused sets to one degree or another and is the primary advantage of buff based sets. The upside is that if a team is moving fast enough that you don't have time to use debuffs then they don't really need your debuffs so it doesn't really matter and you'll have plenty of time for debuffing when they do need them (AVs and such).|
Originally Posted by Vauluur
Traps seems like a good set. I've never actually tried it because the cast times for some of the powers seem fairly long. Is that noticeable when you are on teams and trials? It seems as though you would just finish putting out your mortar or just finish laying your PGT and half the spawn would already be dead. Although, in those cases it could be argued that you don't need the PGT or mortar anyway I suppose.
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Personally when I'm playing my debuffing Defenders (a Traps and a Time) I play more like a Tanker. On a fast team a good Tanker will move ahead of the team, getting into the spawn and grabbing aggro while the rest of the team is mopping up the last group and I play my Defenders the same way. I move ahead and start laying down the debuffs so that by the time the rest of the team arrives my debuffs are already in place and I can help with blasting.
Now if you want a more Buff based Defender set to avoid the whole problem there are some sets that provide good buffs. Kinetics is an obvious choice, it's not the best set for damage mitigation but it provides excellent buffs and works well on a fast team. Cold Domination is also a good choice, you get some of the defense buffs from Force Field and combine with some decent debuffs for a relatively solid all-round set. Thermal and Sonic Resonance are not the greatest sets but they do provide resistance buffs (which people are less likely to be capped with).
If you're primary focus is in end game support, I would recommend a controller or corruptor. The Defender AT's difference in support values becomes pretty indistinguishable from other ATs because of all the personal and team mitigation that is available in the late game. At that point the hybrid ATs tend to shine brighter because they don't sacrifice in the damage department like defenders do.
Also FF is one of the weakest late game sets since lacks a lot of tools and those that it does have beyond shields are very situational. Late-game you really want a set that debuffs/buffs either solely offensively or both offensively and defensively, since the demand for mitigation tends to drop quite a lot in the late game.
That all said, I agree with the above recommendations of Time, Cold, and Traps if you're planning to stick to the defender AT.
To answer the earlier question: yes, Sonic has alternate animations if you prefer not to scream. The alternate animations have the powers emanating from the hand rather than the mouth.
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Ah good. Then I will probably be rolling a Sonic/Energy. I don't see a lot of either set these days running around, and it fits the initial plans I had for the character. It also avoids the problem of doing next to nothing in the late game, since more resistance will benefit almost everyone all the time, even if debuffs might hold up better to the end game. Thanks for your input everyone! |
Originally Posted by Justaris
To answer the earlier question: yes, Sonic has alternate animations if you prefer not to scream. The alternate animations have the powers emanating from the hand rather than the mouth.
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@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian
Do be aware that if you go /energy for a blast set, you will want to learn to use knockback well. Its very easy for /energy to go spraying mobs and whole spawns away from debuff patches, tanks, AoEs, etc. and actually slow the speed of a team. So expect to have to do some running around to line foes up to avoid this, its not so much a "blast everything I see" set on a team. It does have some very nice blast special effects, though.
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I'd strongly recommend sonic/sonic defender for your setup. This will have shockwave completely to satisfy your knockback fix, and will do good damage. Also, I suspect that whatever concept worked for ff/nrg will still work for sonic/sonic with a little re-coloring here and there.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
Ah good. Then I will probably be rolling a Sonic/Energy. I don't see a lot of either set these days running around, and it fits the initial plans I had for the character. It also avoids the problem of doing next to nothing in the late game, since more resistance will benefit almost everyone all the time, even if debuffs might hold up better to the end game. Thanks for your input everyone!
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"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
While some are going to write off FF defenders, I'll put a foot forward for them.
At lower levels they help out tremendously. They don't make a bad team great, but they help mitigate the effects of bad teams. They do make good teams into steamrollers though.
Later on, as various classes begin acquiring their own defenses, and teams begin acquiring stacking defenses, the utility of the forcefields drops off, but isn't eliminated. No other class can provide provide an essentially perma forcefield (providing the defender doesn't die).
Traps comes close, but FFG needs to be renewed and the drone can be destroyed. Dispersion bubble doesn't have this problem.
Also, the FFG drone lags behind the caster, making positioning and rapid movement under the bubble difficult. Since the bubbles from a FF move with the caster, this isn't an issue.
What FF allows the defender to do at higher levels is to concentrate more on damage output from their secondary. Moreso than any other defender class. Well built, a FF defender can attack endlessly while leaving their forcefields on auto and never having to worry about endurance consumption.
And yeah, Incarnates can burp out forcefields from everyone and their brother. There's no mez protection there, and the amount of defense, while initially superior, falls off rapidly. Forcefields are steady, dependable known quantities.
So, while you're making your considerations, keep an eye on Forcefields.
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I'm not trying to bash FF, but let's be realistic with our expectations on FF's performance in Incarnate Trials. |
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And yeah, Incarnates can burp out forcefields from everyone and their brother. There's no mez protection there, and the amount of defense, while initially superior, falls off rapidly. Forcefields are steady, dependable known quantities.
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In an incarnate trial you have 20 something people having various versions of clarion and barrier, that are used at key events and tend to overlap the fading effect of the buff by accident. You also have additional DEF from all the stacks of Maneuvers and Stealth auras (Arctic Fog, Shadowfall, etc) folks get by proximity. Finally, when status effects do happen in trials they are almost always way more than Dispersion bubble can handle in magnitude. Dispersion is NOT FF's strong point in trials, Ally shields however are the strongest thing FF has going for it here.
If it's any consolation, TA does worse than FF in incarnate trials, as only Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow are useful and lack the impact that Def shields offer.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
What FF allows the defender to do at higher levels is to concentrate more on damage output from their secondary. Moreso than any other defender class. Well built, a FF defender can attack endlessly while leaving their forcefields on auto and never having to worry about endurance consumption.
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Sorry endurance consumption is rarely a problem and not primarily factor in dps. You might have a point if you were talking about attacks per minute though, since FF ends up doing a whole lotta nothing but blasting. Though I would have to counter that any AoE -Res in a trial environment heavily outweighs any extra attacks an FF defender has as an advantage.
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Which still don't stop containment. And if someone's running Clarion. And IF people are staggering Barriers.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
In an incarnate trial you have 20 something people having various versions of clarion and barrier, that are used at key events and tend to overlap the fading effect of the buff by accident.
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In many of the gaggle-**** (really bad PUG) trials I've had the displeasure to take part in, this wasn't the case.
Also, I'm not solely referring to iTrials. The iTrials aren't the sum total of this game (as much as some people pretend it is).
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| You also have additional DEF from all the stacks of Maneuvers and Stealth auras (Arctic Fog, Shadowfall, etc) folks get by proximity. |
I'm not saying that there's any reason for "Gotta have a bubbler or it's a no go". Such a position is patently ********. I'm just saying that simply because the person is playing a bubbler doesn't mean their primary is useless, and they can't contribute meaningfully to a team or league.
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Sonic/Traps or Time/Traps are both fun
Dark/Dark too.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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People run basic Clarion all the time in UG even in PuGs where you face unavoidable mez A LOT. As for BAF AV holds and Anti-matter's beam, those are entirely avoidable with active positioning on the player's part.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Which still don't stop containment. And if someone's running Clarion. And IF people are staggering Barriers.
In many of the gaggle-**** (really bad PUG) trials I've had the displeasure to take part in, this wasn't the case. |
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| Again, not always the case. If people are running toons with these powers, sure. Not always the case. |
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| I'm not saying that there's any reason for "Gotta have a bubbler or it's a no go". Such a position is patently ********. I'm just saying that simply because the person is playing a bubbler doesn't mean their primary is useless, and they can't contribute meaningfully to a team or league. |
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Thanks for trying to tell me how lousy PUGs go.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
People run basic Clarion all the time in UG even in PuGs where you face unavoidable mez A LOT. As for BAF AV holds and Anti-matter's beam, those are entirely avoidable with active positioning on the player's part.
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| 15-20 players, it's crazy unlikely to not have at least 3 support ATs. Realistically you'll probably have at least 7 troller/fender/MM/corrs. |
You believe whatever you want to believe. I'll continue to play the AT and power combinations you would write off and continue to be valuable regardless.
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Eh... Oil slick is big damage and everyone loves disruption and the AVs are not going to be at the -res cap. I think you are missing the boat here. Plus of course acid is going to be helping if it is just a matter of one AV you are trying to pound down.|
Originally Posted by Turbo_Ski
If it's any consolation, TA does worse than FF in incarnate trials, as only Disruption Arrow and Oil Slick Arrow are useful and lack the impact that Def shields offer. |
I think TA shines better in incarnate than it does in the normal game... This is added to the fact that TA tends to shine at 50 more than anything else regardless.
TA is funny... You can level it and it seems gimp but once you IO it out you are like... OMG Oil slick is up every <45 sec and I do major debuffage and because of IOs I am soft capped... I'm freakin' invincable. I think it benefits more from level 50 content than most sets do.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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That's the problem, all TA has going for it is Oil Slick. Which honestly is pretty anemic compared to what other support sets do late game as a whole. Disruption is okay, but comparatively it still bring less than what other AoE -res support powers do since it has no secondary effect nor is it stronger of a debuff. The rest of TA set is just plain bad, so bad that I'm not exaggerating when I say that PGA/Glue/Flash/EMPA/IA are completely useless in trials. Which is my problem with TA in general, it has one single really great power and a bunch of mediocre ones.
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Originally Posted by _Ail_
Eh... Oil slick is big damage and everyone loves disruption and the AVs are not going to be at the -res cap. I think you are missing the boat here. Plus of course acid is going to be helping if it is just a matter of one AV you are trying to pound down.
I think TA shines better in incarnate than it does in the normal game... This is added to the fact that TA tends to shine at 50 more than anything else regardless. TA is funny... You can level it and it seems gimp but once you IO it out you are like... OMG Oil slick is up every <45 sec and I do major debuffage and because of IOs I am soft capped... I'm freakin' invincable. I think it benefits more from level 50 content than most sets do. |
Jumping in to semi defend ( go figure in a defender forum ) traps issues and comment to the OP as well.
First and foremost I believe the best toon you can bring to a team is your best toon and not your best "team toon". My thought process is like this. If I have a defense cap defender that can solo 4/8 setting, which a full team of 8 players might run on a 4 setting, again might being the keyword here. I join a team of 7 other players now with this toon, what are these 7 other players if nothing more then a DPS increase for me. I could solo this mission before I joined them. Granted mobs like Malta and Carnies might give me a 2nd thought, but Malta and Carnies on a team of 8 on a 4 setting can be a big for some teams as well, let alone me being solo.
Traps without a questionable doubt will allow you defense cap and allow you to run a 4/8 setting solo regardless of which AT you pick, whether it be Defender, Corruptor or Mastermind. On a team FFG alone is great for the defense buff and the hold debuff protection it offers. The recharge on a level 50 IOed character for FFG is about 5 to 7 seconds. FFG can be used to take an alpha and still survive enough to walk in drop a few attacks and summon another FFG. Just letting FFG take the alpha and resummoning will have done the job of absorbing the initial attack and allowing you to regain aggro, because the minute you resummon aggro will switch to you.
On some mobs and lower settings I just run around with FFG and using my main attacks. If anything Acid Mortar is very helpful and has a noticeable effect on mob debuff wise. Acid Mortar is also another quick recharge power.
But regardless I will agree with some others saying FFG is like Device as it is a set of the old days of COH, before Invention sets. There is only 1 buff out of FF that is good for you for defense reasons. As was mentioned Barrier incarnate which is very, very popular along with the heal incarnate ( forgot the name atm ).
You mentioned Assault Rife. My defender is a Traps AR toon with incarnates. Traps btw will allow you to place trip mines at will. So you will find more use for them on a Traps then you would a Device toon. Maybe this is your time to make a Traps/AR or a Traps Dark fitting the shadow shard theme.
Coming from a player who has PuG'ed for the past 6 years I have had little issues. But I think if anything my success on teams is because I can handle what the team is doing, because all my toons are built around defense caps. I only have 1 50 scrapper that I just started using and old SD Electric I decided to IO out just a few weeks ago. But beyond that my 18+ level 50 Incarnate toons are anything but Tank, Scrapper, Brute, Dominator, Controller toons. I have a petless mastermind that can solo 4/8 setting ( traps of course ).
This is the theme I suggest you look at.
Do not build the toon around the theme but instead build the theme around the build. If you do it your way because of the powers you must have for thematic reasons your going to have to accept your short comings. The other way around pick 2 sets that look well together and roll with that.
Simple example I have a Storm Sonic I am working on and I also would like to have some story to put in the background. I went Storm Sonic for some PvP ideas and for some debuffing ideas for taking on AVs. So my story to fit my build is a player that naturally had Storm powers ( mutant origin ), but from so many battles against villains he took tech from those defeated and with some help built an armored suit that emits sonic attacks, so part mutant part technology. So all his costumes will have some sort of Tech in it.
My Traps AR is a soldier from Paetoria wars that was injured during the battles, documented as MIA / Dead but was taken to Neuron for experimentation.
Nutshell I would not go Force Field, but pick a combo that will make YOU great and join a team for the extra dps.
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
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Hopefully I'm misunderstanding, but I get from this you let FFG take the alplha, in a set that has Seeker Drones. I really hope I'm misunderstanding.| ...The recharge on a level 50 IOed character for FFG is about 5 to 7 seconds. FFG can be used to take an alpha and still survive enough to walk in drop a few attacks and summon another FFG. Just letting FFG take the alpha and resummoning will have done the job of absorbing the initial attack and allowing you to regain aggro, because the minute you resummon aggro will switch to you. |
Using Seekers for alpha - Your FFG (and therefore +Def an Mez protection) stays intact and Seekers debuffs damage (substantially) and to-hit, for added safety and has a chance to stun a mob or two.
Using FFG for alpha - your Def and mez protection are down, period, for the length of time it takes to summon. Even worse, in the time it takes to resummon FFG you could have laid down one of your traps, or caltrops.
Hey, if it works for you, more power to you.
Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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No just saying that FFG is that good and durable.
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Originally Posted by Deacon_NA
Hopefully I'm misunderstanding, but I get from this you let FFG take the alplha, in a set that has Seeker Drones. I really hope I'm misunderstanding.
Using Seekers for alpha - Your FFG (and therefore +Def an Mez protection) stays intact and Seekers debuffs damage (substantially) and to-hit, for added safety and has a chance to stun a mob or two. Using FFG for alpha - your Def and mez protection are down, period, for the length of time it takes to summon. Even worse, in the time it takes to resummon FFG you could have laid down one of your traps, or caltrops. Hey, if it works for you, more power to you. |
1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
This is something of a from the ground up thread. Mainly because I'm coming to you with a handful of concepts and not much else.
A bit of background before I get into it though. Recently (past few months or so) I've been working on actually getting some of my huge collection of alts to respectable levels. In over 6 years of active account time, I have gotten only 3 characters to 50. 2 of them were deleted because I lost interest in their concept and they were of limited utility to teams anyway. My main (and only current 50) is my BS/Invuln Scrapper. He is therefore a damage dealer on teams. My project just before this (which recently hit 35) is an Invuln/SS Tanker that I can now use to fill a tanking role on many teams. Eventually, the goal is to be able to bring whatever the team needs. I currently am lacking support and control. Since I'm probably going to wait until i22 for a Controller, I have decided to make my Defender now.
That brings me to the general concepts I have in mind. Right now, the first one is a FF/ that focuses on buffs first (obviously) but also uses KB to provide soft controls by splitting spawns and the like. I'd probably also take a serious look at Detention Field for isolating certain troublesome opponents that the primary damage dealers haven't targetted. I'm also leaning towards getting the medicine pool as I don't see much of a reason not to patch up the people that do actually get hit. For the secondaries, I'm looking mainly at Energy Blast and Sonic Blast (with the alternate animations). I could, however, be persuaded to take something else if it fits the concept. The concept itself first formed as a high-ranking Nemesis leader that Nemesis had been fooling for years into thinking he was doing the right thing. When he learned that Nemesis was behind the Rikti War, however, the soldier would have defected. Assault Rifle could fit, but I'm leaning away from it for 3 reasons. I would have to wait until I got the Unveiler Badge to have the appropriate weapon models, it would cause redraw for using Repulsion Bomb or Aid Other, and when I get around to getting a Blaster to 50 there's a good chance it will have Assault Rifle.
While I have that concept fairly well thought out, I'm also kicking around ideas for a Shadow Shard themed mutant. That concept I haven't fully fleshed out yet, though, it could allow for a wider variety of sets.
What I ask of you, Defender Forumites, is to offer up your advice for secondary choices for that first concept. Powers to take, powers to avoid, slotting suggestions, example builds, and anything else you feel like posting is welcome. I'm in fairly unfamiliar waters here.
If, for some reason, you have a strong objection to FF/ then the second concept leaves room for you to post advice as well.
Thanks in advance to everyone that bothers to post
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian