Turbo_Ski

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- will slotting it with end mods only affect the amount of end that is drained on the mob or will it also increase our recovery rate?

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it effects the +End, -End, and +Recovery components. So yes, all of the above.

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Heat Loss summons two pet types multiple times, one for the buff and one for the debuff. The power summons 1 buff pet around you and 1 debuff pet that hits all those around the targeted foe. The debuff pet then applies all it's debuff values and summons 1 buff pet per foe.

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- finally, is heat loss good enough to replace stamina with?

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Yes and No, really depends on how you are building and slotting stuff. It's not my specialty but I think I recall a guide awhile centered around it specifically. IMO not really worth it since both Health and Stamina are great powers to have even if you have to use one power slot to grab swift/hurdle.

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On a very high rech build I can get it to around 5 seconds downtime on heat loss between buffs. Has anyone ever tried this?

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I think I'm sitting at 110 second recharge on Turbo-Ski for Heat Loss, and while I do suck end down rather fast, I'm not doing so anywhere fast enough to where I need heat loss as soon as it recharges. I usually let it sit out there idle until either my end bar has dropped below 10% or a nearby teammate's has, since the +End refill is more useful that way.

It works and you don't have to use the power to activate it, it's automatically always on as soon as you slot them.

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Hmm I see. Yea I was planning on doing the grav emenation + inky aspect thing. I guess I'll fit in the shields where needed.

So what do you do about mezzers though? This is the thing that really has me hung up. I did an all Human PB and it was really fun until I started running into mezzes and knockback around every corner.

I know that there's IOs for knockback but how do you handle the mez?

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If you get mezzed just switch to dwarf form immediately since you can switch into it while mezzed and as soon as it wears off or you feel comfortable switch back.

Gratz Larrisa

Since holds/stuns/sleeps no longer drop the shields and human form damage was increased, it's actually worth using them (keep in mind older guides might say otherwise because they be old).

I would say take the first two shields and Grav Emanation on a human WS. typical attack plan is to Grav Emation on the way in with Inky Aspect running and then mire/eclipse and detonation, and use Grav Well and ST attacks on a boss or lt until detonation recharges. Stygian and Extract Essence afterward and move on to next mob.

You could use unchain essence but it's honestly it's not worth the slots you put into it compared to all your other powers. There is a lot to hate about that power such as the damage/recharge being bad and the damage/endurance being awful as well, then the enemy corpse part really makes the power even more of a hassle.

to add on what smurphy was saying...

If you want a overly defensive team 2 cold corr and 2 sonic corrs would probably be your best best for a 4 man team.

If you want a overly offensive team 2 kins corrs and 2 sonic corrs

As for blasts...
1-2 darks if you pick up cold
1-2 Rad if you go kin
Sonic blast for filler if you want to be completely optimal.

I still say let them play what they want though.

I've played around with human-only WS since then, but honestly it feels like a much less smooth version of my crab spider. The corpse targeting for Dark Extraction and Unchained Essence is still a major pain and having to mix position conflicting powers like a cone stun and with a PBAoE stun toggle is overly awkward compared to just using Frag Grenade, Omega Maneuver, or Wide Area Web Grenade individually.

It's a lot more soloable and workable overall now, but there is still much to be desired, such as orbiting death's endurance cost being insane and the damage being lower than a dark tanker's Death Shroud.

Kinetics if you're looking a non-dark set, since that set is all about stealing power from foes. Of course that follows a more spiritual vampire theme than a traditional theme.

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Both ATs honestly dish out about the same levels of damage when they want to, it's just that having force multiplying buffs/debuffs put SoAs a significant step ahead in teams that really the kheld inherent just can't keep up with. Not that it really needs to though.

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And isn't that how the Epic AT's should behave respectively of their sides?

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yes

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I was going the say the same about you, but with blonde rather then red hair and the lack of emo face paint. :/

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funny, I don't make up ridiculous anecdotes to support my point.

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...anyone who has played both ATs knows that SoAs have more tools to force multiply and control which makes them actually improve the overall team's performance considerably.

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Well, I haven't played VEATs past Lv24, I simply can't stand them for conceptual reasons, at least at the moment, but just by looking at their power-sets, it's obvious that VEATs are meant (as in designed) to be a passive pillar of strength that while enabling and facilitating others to fight for them, should not be taken face to face with the heavies.

Kheldians on the other hand... are meant to be prime warriors who never need to hide behind others and send others to fight for them. If you think otherwise, I invite you to run some Invincible Malta/Carnie missions with the Umbra Illuminati.

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Bane spiders are really the only squishy SoA branch. Crabs get a rather large +Res toggle and Widows in general can get themselves to the softcap for Melee defense with SO and no elude. This of course complements the overly aggressive playstyle of all the SoA branches.

Both ATs honestly dish out about the same levels of damage when they want to, it's just that having force multiplying buffs/debuffs put SoAs a significant step ahead in teams that really the kheld inherent just can't keep up with. Not that it really needs to though.

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Epic thread is epic.

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Madam_Enigma reminds me of Bad_Influence just a lot less entertaining.

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I don't get it... wasn't it already decided and agreed-on that VEATs were meant to be easier to handle, and less frustrating than HEATs?

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Well I already stated for the record that Khelds contribute fine to teams, but anyone who has played both ATs knows that SoAs have more tools to force multiply and control which makes them actually improve the overall team's performance considerably.

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How about you start basing your insults on actual information? For one thing, I did NOT include AIM before because for one thing, I didn't have the exact numbers for it available. Nor could I get them since the servers were down. And your going on still about me messing up my math a tad the second time I ran the numbers without being able to double check the values... When you yourself keep doing YOUR math wrong? Pot, meet kettle.

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You say my numbers are wrong, but fail to bring any reasoning why it's wrong. My math agrees with City of Data, In-game numbers, Mids Hero Designer, and wonderslug's damage spreadsheet.

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You've been claiming that I"m basing my opinions off of pure belief. In other words you think I'm just pulling things out of a fantasy world. No, I'm basing my opinions AND beliefs off experiences. I've been trying to demonstrate the numbers to illustrate various things, you keep claiming I'm "not a thinker".

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And yet you claim to have never played a corruptor past lvl 12, but believe you have the experience to actually thoughtfully contribute to a discussion about the imbalance of defender and corruptor numbers. You then make it painfully obvious you have no clue how the math works and when you claim to have used 6 calculators to check your work, it makes it rather obvious you don't know what a spreadsheet is.

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I guess it's easier for you to dismiss someone's opinions as fantasy when they aren't using the information supplied them by the developers, but just relaying experiences. Probably because you feel that if someone doesn't record videos of their playtime and post them on youtube, they didn't play?

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Who is living in a fantasy world now? By the way you still haven't proven any of my math actually wrong with in-game data or proven yours was right.

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Here's a tip for you Turbo, I have actually gotten booted from teams while playing defenders because the blasters felt I was doing too much damage. They didn't like the idea of a 'support' type who could defeat enemies as well as they could. And that's using a secondary most people consider gimped due to it being lethal damage.

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It's amazing how you can make up the most ridiculous anecdotes on the spot like that. It's really hilarious.

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The developers have stated repeatedly they feel that defenders are the most balanced archetype. They also have said in the past that for an archetype to get buffs when it's not under preforming there would have to be a trade off. As such, what will you decide all us defenders want to trade to get higher damage? Because it looks to me like you and Fulmens are the only ones really campaigning for a damage buff.

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First off, how about to cite exactly where any developer has said "defenders are the most balanced archetype.", because I have a very hard time believing Castle would ever say that.

Oh and Fulmen's has "Renowned~Guide Contributor" underneath his name, yes clearly he must not know anything about game mechanics or the numbers behind them. /sarcasm

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So tell us what have you decided that us lowly defenders who can see how and why the class is balanced will have to give up to get the damage boost you want? Because what I'm gathering from your replies is this attitude on your behalf.

"I am Turbo_Ski and I know best. Defenders do too low of damage in my opinion, and my opinion is the only one that matters. Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a Believer, and if they try using any sort of reason they can't be thinking. If they were thinking they would naturally see how brilliant I am and that I can't be wrong."

Yes Turbo, that's how you come across. Your coming across the same way over in the keld forums while you espouse your belief that SoA are intrinsically superior to kelds in every way.

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Funny how you interpret stuff like to take something as simple as "Generally Khelds < SoAs in teams" and interpret it into "SoAs are superior in every way". Seems to be happening a lot in this thread as well.

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By the way, I'll point out something else while I'm at it your holy of holys. I find your logic of "Because the power gives X percentage of a buff to each team member I should add the buff given to each seperate team member together for the total buff" to be flawed. The flaw lies in the fact that you are adding the buffs together as if it's one large buff. It's not. By your logic Group Fly would be the best travel power out there because you would add the travel speeds of each person affected by it together for the total flight speed it gives. By this logic team teleport is more powerful then it is because you multiply the teleport range by how many people are being teleported. The leadership toggles are an aura. The value for the aura is always the same no matter how many are effected by it.

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Really, you think a 140% self only damage buff better for a team than an aura that gives 15% dmg, 15% def, and 15% tohit to everyone in the team. Yeah, your logic there is very flawed.

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Consistantly... kill... O.o... I assume you have actually played a tri-form warshade... right? Between my kelds and my SoA, the kelds tend to kill things at the same speed, or faster. Especially my warshade. And that's fighting more enemies to boot. But then, not every fight goes exactly as intended. Sometimes the excrement hits the fan. In such a situation what does a SoA do? They keep attacking and hoping that pure damage will solve everything.

What does my warshade do? Protects the team. If my WS is on a team with 7 blasters, I know I don't need to worry much about dealing damage. I dish it out with the best of them, but I know it's not my primary way of helping the team. I turn on the stun aura toggle and start keeping the enemies from hitting my squishy team mates. stunned enemies do zero damage after all.

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It's amazing how you can continue talking about two ATs when you know nothing about one of them. You keep talking about how Kheldians can out control SoAs, but are completely ignorant of the numerous controls Fortunatas get.

funny how this parallels the defender and corruptor comparison topic where you admit to having never played a corruptor past lvl 12 and then go on about how you know in your heart that defenders are better. Really if you're going to compare two ATs at least play them both to at least lvl 40 before you open your mouth.

And yes, I have a lvl 46 tri-form warshade and lvl 50 bane and a lvl 43 widow.

How about you start basing your opinions on factual data instead of belief. Just like how you believe defender's Aim is greater than blaster's Aim in value when blasters have 62.5% damage buff and defenders only have 50% damage buff or how you believe that */Rad corruptors have -20% res on enervating field when it's actually -22.5%.

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And that one warshade can do some tanking where requred, run a stun aura to negate the threat of minions, stack disorient to negate bosses, as well as help kill groups super fast.


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And yet SoAs can consistently kill faster and have better controls and enough +Def stacking to negate the need for a tank at all.

Remember what I said in the thread earlier folks. Madam_Enigma is a "believer" not a "thinker".

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Well, yes, SoA's can double up their team buffage using Leadership. Do alot of them do that? And what are they giving up to do so? 5 or 6 slots devoted to team buffage (adding together SoA toggles and leadership toggles) is indeed nice, but you are trading off something else to get those leadership toggles...

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Same thing for any kheld that picks up leadership pool, except they also don't get team enhancing abilities like venom grenade, surveillance, and mind link in addition to the Tatical Training.

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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.

Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.

1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.

1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.

Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.

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the following pretty much only applies to Human Only Khelds - Form Khelds can't keep toggles running...

What a lot of people fail to realize it that even though Khelds get the same amount of power slots as other ATs, they get travel powers for free. That's 2 extra slots they can use for more powers that other ATs have to used just to get around.

So, I've taken one of those slots and got Assault from Leadership. Not only does my team buff me, but I also buff them, using one of the extra slots they don't have. I almost used my extra 'free slot' to get Maneuvers, but wanted a Kheld power more (we got sooooo many cool ones)

Khelds (Human) can be team buffers if they choose to be (via Leadership) and it doesn't cost us any extra that it does your SoA.

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Hmm, so you want to toss in leadership pool as well. Well SoAs can choose to double stack those as well and for higher base buff values than kheldians.

Kheldians do just fine on teams but it's silly to claim they are better than SoAs on teams. That's like saying brutes are better on teams than corruptors...

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I got those numbers by copy/pasting strait from the game, so are you saying the game is lying about the numbers? Let's do some basic math. Shall we?

41.71 smashing+83.42 energy=125.13 damage every time you use the attack. You will agree this is proper math right? Because if not, then your saying that the six calculators I used to recheck it are lying.

Then there is a high chance (at 50) for 41.71 energy damage. 41.71+125.13=166.84

Next there is a fifty/fifty chance for 41.71 damage. 166.84+41.71=208.55 damage.

But that's not 'best case' is it? Then there's scourge. So for maximum possible damage with a corrupter you must include scourge damage too, right? That's another 41.71 damage. So 208.55+41.71 is what? That's right, 250.26 damage best case (scourge goes off, both damage chances go off). So in a complete vacuum it does 250.26 damage maximum.

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Scourge isn't part of base damage and you can only estimate the scourge increase by increasing the damage by 17.52% AFTER res debuffs have been calculated out. 17.52% is the avg. damage increase an attack with scourge has over an attack without scourge done against a target of any hp count.

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Now since this is a corrupter and we're assuming a rad/electric defender, a electric/rad corrupter, and a electric/* blaster let's include the damage boosts rad can get reliably solo. That's +20% damage from AM and a -20% resistance debuff. Note I am not including enhancements. That's because we have no way of knowing if the person chose to slot for damage, accuacy, recharge, or what. Maybe they underslotted damage to get more end drain? We don't know.

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*/Rad corruptors bring +20% dmg and -22.5% res.
Rad/* defenders bring +25% dmg and -30% res.
Blasters bring an avg of 40% dmg for themselves through defiance.
Jeez you can't even get the starting numbers straight.

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For best case situation this corrupter already just did 250.26 damage unenhanced, but with AM it would be 300.312 damage total. Assuming no resistances of course. This damage is then modified by the enemy's resistance (or lack there of). Since they presumably had no resistance to start, let's give the full corrupter resistance debuff of 20%.

The math so far would be as follows:

(41.71+83.42)+(41.71+41.71+41.71)*1.2=X
X*1.2=Y
Y=360.3744

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completely wrong on the formula as well. You completely excluded (41.71+83.42) from the 20% damage buff and then of course you got the resistance value wrong and wrongfully added an extra 41.71 in for scourge.

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Speaking of blasters, maybe I should have included Aim in my calculations. I didn't though. If I did, I'd have to use it in my calculations for all 3 archetypes. By omitting Aim I removed one variable to reduce math clutter.. Nor did I include the buff from Defiance since there's no way of knowing which attacks were used before casting Thunderous Blast. If it's the alpha strike (which nukes I've noticed usually are) then there is no defiance buff most likely.

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Aim is available to all the ATs, but the buff modifier is actually higher for blasters than defenders. In addition blasters get buildup from their secondary as well. If you really want to bring up a mechanic that gives blasters a 162.5% dmg buff and only 50% dmg buff for defenders, then I assure you the gap between blaster and defender damage will only widen.

Defiance's average buff can be calculated by measuring the series of common blast attack chains against their activation times, buff values, and buff durations. For example:

Voltaic Sentinel -> charged bolt -> lightning bolt -> Ball Lightning -> charged bolt -> lightning bolt
yields a 57.9% of a buff with 4.19 seconds left of buff to cast the 3.7 second cast of Thunderous Blast. taking into account user error and ignorance, 40% of a buff is a pretty safe estimate of a defiance buff.

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But of course if this is an alpha strike, the corrupter doesn't get scourge damage do they? This means base damage+enhancement bonus+AM bonus. That comes out to 488.007 damage for the corrupter before resistance debuffs are factored in. 66 damage isn't that large of a margin.

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When talking about overall damage of an AT, whether said attack is an alpha strike or not is irrelevant. All 3 ATs have prep time involved to buff their damage up, defenders and corruptors have to apply their debuffs first and blasters have to build up defiance. If you counted every attack as an alpha strike then you're completely removing buff/debuff that requires prep time. Scourge falls into this same category as defiance, which as I said before comes out to be a 17.52% damage buff for overall damage over time for corruptors.

Also there is always a chance that a target could be below 50% health before the nuke goes off since 3.7 seconds is plenty of time for allies to deal damage. Because of this you can't omit scourge's potential to increase damage ever.

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Factoring in Aim alters things even more. Defenders remember get higher damage buff values from powers then blasters or corrupters. So adding Aim in will close the gap a bit.

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Wrong.
Electrical Blast - Aim damage buff values
Corruptor: 42.5%
Defender: 50%
Blaster: 62.5%

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Remember, because defenders get the highest values for most buffs and debuffs, using those damage buffs and resistance debuffs can easily close the gap in damage. This is why TA came with the -res values for Acid Arrow and Disruption Arrow reduced to 20% each for defenders. When they were 30% each it was too powerful due to them being stackable without slotting.

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You seem to be ignorant of the fact that TA has Oil Slick which is like old school burn on steroids and the fact that Disruption Arrow can stack on itself. It wasn't because -60% resistance all the time was too powerful, it was the mechanics of the set as a whole that was too powerful for such a value.

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Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo

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False, I play my Kheldians efficiently, especially when damage dealers join my team. I make sure to be on big teams with one or more Dps, so I'm usually doing heavy dmg throught the battle. Quasar and Unchain Essence have proven to devour mobs better than most blasters. Peacebringers are doing supreme to extreme dmg by level 10...making them DPS power houses from lvl 6 on. Secondly Soloing is a Moot point as nearly every AT can solo.

In teams Kheld shine more for the boost they receive from each teammate, so I would have to go with them on teams. The forms alone give them far more diversity in teams then SoA's.

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You seem to forget that SoAs boost the entire team's damage, tohit, and defense.

Let's assume it's just 1 Bane and 7 blasters and another separate team of 1 WS and 7 blasters.

1 bane provides 15% dmg, 15.6% Tohit, and 15.6% Def to the entire team. 8 people benefit so that's 120% dmg, tohit, and def being distributed. Since it's 3 different buffs it's 360% total benefit.

1 WS on a team of 8 blasters gets 20% dmg buff per blaster. that's 7 times 20% which is 140%.

Sorry but SoAs are superior in teams than Kheldians here.

First you're wrong on the max potential on corruptor base damage for thunderous blast. It's 208.54 not 250.26.

Secondly, you're not calculating the damage all the way through. You're also forgetting the blaster damage buff from defiance which is about 40% of a buff on average.

Corr buffed dmg = 208.54 * ( 1 + .95 + .2 ) = 448.361
Def buffed dmg = 180.73 * ( 1 + .95 + .25 ) = 397.606
blaster buffed dmg = 312.81 * ( 1 + .95 + .4 ) = 735.1035

then we apply -res debuffs and scourge

Corr res = 448.361 * ( 1 + .225 ) = 549.242225
Corr scourge = 549.242225 * ( 1 + .1752 ) = 645.4694628

Def res = 397.606 * ( 1 + .3 ) = 516.8878

final damage
Corruptor = 645.47
Defender = 516.89
Blaster = 735.10

Defenders come no where close to blaster damage here.

Honestly, whatever the player actually playing the corruptor picks will do you fine in the long run. It's more important they are playing a set they find fun in such a group than to min/max for such a small team.

Generally...
Khelds < SoA in teams
Khelds > SoA solo

Of course we have freakish exceptions in Fortunatas and double-mire warshades at the end game.