TonyV

Hey now, for what it's worth, I still like you.

For what it's worth, I'm not sure if I ever publicly did this, but a HUGE thank you to TJ and to Ninus for shuttling my butt around last November. I didn't rent a car under the theory that I could always just hitch a ride or, worst-case scenario, catch the VTA bus or a taxi to and from anywhere I wanted to go. Thanks to the gracious butt-hauling services provided by TJ and Ninus, I didn't have to catch any busses or taxis.

So yeah... thanks!!!

Heh, funny story. Ninus and I were going to meet you at Holder's Country Inn on Sunday, but I think that we either went to the wrong one or we got there after you all left. As we were pulling up, we saw a lady who, from the back, looked like DJ Angel, with a couple of guys that we didn't immediately recognize, but who looked vaguely familiar as people from the Pummit. So we honked and started waving, they turned around, and they were emphatically NOT who we thought they were.

Of course, by that time, we had sort of committed to it, so I'm sitting there telling Ninus, "Don't stop, just act like we know them. They'll be the ones on the defensive, thinking, 'Who ARE those people?' We can sell this."

Clearly, we need a resurrection ritual factory built. We're going to need more obols.

So are you.

The vast majority of people are doing the stuff without much fuss or muss, without much thought one way or another about it. Even now, months into it, I don't have much trouble gathering a team or a league for this content because these people are pretty easy to come by, especially during peak hours. Granted, if you're trying to do a Keyes at 5:00am Eastern, you're probably going to have a problem, but shoot, even that can happen if you schedule and announce it ahead of time so that the odd-hours players can get together.

Now that you'll be able to get the same rewards solo, though, I suspect that it will be hard to get a league together to do it. That's why I keep pointing out the need for rewards for team-only content, because it is a well known fact, a fact that the devs have told me in person, that people will almost always take the path of least resistance. But I'm not too worried, because as I've said repeatedly, there will be new content to take it's place.

Of course, once it's out there, you'll have people yelling about how it's a slap in the face too, and we'll rinse and repeat these same arguments again.

*sigh...

This has been a common complaint, though, since May 2004.

Remember when villains got Mayhem missions and all sorts of new shinies? I can't tell you the number of threads of, "Why are you catering only to villains?" Then we got Safeguards and some more hero-side content. "Why do you hate villains?"

Remember when CoV hit and there were a bunch of badges added in PvP zones, along with perks such as Shivans and nukes? "Why are you catering only to PvPers?" Then they changed some of the PvP rules to level the playing field and make it easier for newcomers. "Why do you hate PvPers?"

Remember when a bunch of missions were nerfed with timers and such and we had to tolerate the litany of "Why do you hate farmers?" And then they modified the difficulty system and introduced Wentworth's, and we started getting the litany of "Why are you catering only to farmers?" threads.

So anyone who leaves the game because they're asking, "Why are you catering only to X?", no matter what X is, is being pretty short-sighted. I understand getting caught up in the moment and imagining that Positron is sitting on his jewel-encrusted velvet padded throne saying things like, "You know, I'm going to impose my will for people to team on the player base, and to hell with soloers! BWAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!"

But as funny as that image is, it's really not happening. It's not now, it never has been. "Some of this new stuff wasn't made for my particular play style" != "The devs are only catering to players who are X."

Simple example: Although changes since Issue 19 are so heavily griped about for being so geared towards teaming, the following were also added:

• Merged Yellow and Green line monorails (QoL feature).
• Access to Praetoria by non-Praetorians (happy badgers).
• New exploration badges added to hazard zones (happy badges).
• Roy Cooling and Vincent Ross story arcs (solo-friendly).
• Additional tip and morality missions (solo-friendly)
• Message Man and Clockwork A76-293 contacts added to Praetoria (solo-friendly)
• New maps, enemy groups, and powersets added to Architect Entertainment (solo-friendly, AE writers happy)
• Inherent Fitness (VERY solo-friendly)
• Additional power animations (QoL feature)
• Black Helicopter line expanded in Rogue Isles (QoL feature)
• Group area buffs (Speed Boost, Inertial Reduction, Insulation Shield, Sonic Barrier, etc.) (QoL feature)
• First Ward zone added (solo-friendly)
• Beam Rifle powerset added (solo-friendly)
• Street Justice powerset added (solo-friendly)
• Time Manipulation powerset added (solo-friendly)
• Titan Weapons powerset added (solo-friendly)
• Galaxy City destroyed, new tutorial added (solo-friendly, story progression)
• IDF and Defense costume sets added, as well as a crapton of new costume pieces in the Paragon Store (QoL feature)
• New fifth-level travel powers added to travel power pools (solo-friendly)
• Character creator interface revamp (QoL feature)
• LOTS of powerset proliferation (solo-friendly)
• Additional tailors added (QoL feature)
• Ouroboros available at level 14 instead of 25 (solo-friendly)
• Veteran Reward program replaced by Paragon Rewards program--can get rewards as soon as you're willing to pay for, and you have a lot more choice in when you get what perks (QoL feature, solo-friendly)
• Circle of Thorns makeover (QoL feature)
• Exalted server added (QoL feature)
• Crapton of perks and powers added to Paragon Store, such as rocket board, coyote transformation, magic carpet, pets, etc. (QoL feature, solo-friendly)
• Oh yeah, and if you don't have any money, you can PLAY FOR FREE now

...And probably a lot of stuff that I'm forgetting.

So in spite of people getting all indignant that the devs are changing the game to some awful monstrosity that doesn't resemble their cherished game of the past, they're just not seeing the forest for the trees. Yes, there was a bunch of team-oriented content added. Yes, the past few issues have included a lot of Incarnate and endgame content.

But the game has always been, and will continue to be, solo-friendly. I don't know how anyone can look at that list of features, some of which are VERY development-intensive, and think, "the devs don't care about anyone who doesn't want to team up and grind Incarnate content."

I just called Dinah's Garden, and they don't have a group rate on file yet. I asked if it was under either Paragon Studios or City of Heroes, and they don't have a record of it. You might want to get someone to go ahead and contact the hotel to offer the group rate.

Just to help, though, the regular rate for a single/double room is $109/$119 per night. Back in November, the group rate was $10 off, so that a single/double room was $99/$109 per night. Looking at their reservations site, though, there seems to be a nifty trick to getting an even lower rate. If you book 2+ weeks in advance and you're willing to prepay the room fee, you can get a 15% discount, which works out to $93/$101 for a single/double room.

Also, speaking of double room, if you're going by yourself, I highly encourage you to post a message somewhere here and try to get a roommate. I did it last time (woot, Ninus!), I'm doing it this time (woot, Hyperstrike!), and it's awesome. You get to hang out with someone who loves the game and get to know more than just passingly during the Pummit, your lodging fees are half what they would have been, and even if you hate their guts, it's only for one or two nights, because you'll be busy with other stuff pretty much all day. This is the best deal of all, and not just in terms of money saved.

Oh, and P.S., if you do go with a single room, they also have a "garden deluxe" room that costs the same as a double and is a bit bigger. If you have lots of $$$ to blow, they have some fancy schmancy rooms too, with amenities like a lounge area and such. If you get one of those rooms, call me. We'll hang out.

Zut alors!

Thanks from here, too. Being one of the game's officially supported languages, you definitely need a French speaker on the OCR team. Even though I don't speak French myself, I'm glad to see that it's being addressed. Hey, War Witch is Canadian, doesn't she know someone?

There is, however, a fireman. Exactly one. And he dances.

The thing I've always been curious about is, why do we have two detectives/brokers per zone? It just seems a little weird to me that, depending on your character, you might be assigned to Person A or Person B that are functionally identical.

Wow, 7deCoeur left? That was a really short tenure.

This wasn't a response to the OP, and I thought I made that clear. In fact, it wasn't a response to the vast majority of people in this thread. This was a response specifically to rsclark, who asked why people who want to have fun are thought of as "whiny." Most of them aren't; there's nothing wrong with wanting or even asking to change things to make your play experience better.

But every time one of these threads comes along, there is a small contingent of people--and they're the same ones every time--who insist that the game MUST cater to their play style, a solo-only play style that most people do not adopt and which is not conducive to the genre of game City of Heroes is. When people like me point out that around 90%-95% of the game is soloable and us teamers like having some content and things to do set aside for us, we're called everything but red-headed stepchildren (and sometimes worse), treated like we are the ones who are being pig-headed and inflexible.

In Tony's ideal world, a majority of the game, probably 75% or so, would be accessible to everyone with multiple ways to get rewards. This is how it is currently with things like IO recipes. You can get them via missions, via reward merits, via PvP drops, via AE tickets, via Empyrean/Astral merits, via the Wentworth's/Black Market, via tip missions/alignment merits, and some of them you can even buy outright with cash via Paragon Points. There's practically no play style that isn't supported in getting these things.

However, there would also be perks for engaging in specific play styles. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via PvP. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via running solo arcs. There would be some rewards that are only obtainable via task forces and/or trials. You don't have to have these rewards, no one is forcing you to do anything you want to do. However, if you're a well-rounded player, willing to participate in all aspects of the game, you will probably have a bit of an edge over players who just do one or two things all the time.

This has several advantages. For one thing, people might engage in parts of the game that they didn't think would be fun, but it turns out they are. Also, if you're a player who really enjoys aspect X of the game, there will be a lot more people who are doing X than would be if if there were just some easier way to get the same rewards than by doing X. Also, it makes things easier on the developers. How? With people engaging in a lot of different aspects of the game, it obviates or alleviates the need to put so many cooldowns or other obstacles in the game, and the ones that exist are much less apparent and painful to a well-rounded player base.

Of course, you'll still have the people who show up at things and grouse about how miserable they are and how they shouldn't have to be forced to do anything they want to when in fact, they're not forced to do anything. The thing is, though, these people will always be around. You can't develop the game around these people because you'll be chasing that wild goose forever. Some people just like being miserable.

Because "wanting to have fun" is being defined as "entertained 100% of the time, never ever ever having to spend a few minutes doing something I don't want to."

It's like that spoiled rich kid--you know the one--the brat whose parents spend a fortune on their birthday party, paying for clowns, magicians, inflatable "moon walk" playhouses, and a thousand dollars on gifts, with the kid constantly complaining. "Gross! This sandwich has a pickle on it! I'M NOT EATING IT!!! I wanted the widescreen COLLECTOR'S edition, not this crap! I've seen that trick before, and it's more stupid now than it was then! Waaaaah!!!"

If you're not having fun, the stop paying for the game, duh. Of course, I don't believe for a second that's actually the case. I think its much more likely that the whiners (of whom I'm not necessarily saying the OP is one) are 97% happy, but like the spoiled rich kid, all they can dwell on is that other 3%.

Hope that clears it up.

You really don't need to, I don't take any of this stuff personally. In spite of finding myself arguing with most people here at some time or another, there really aren't very many people on the forums that I just plain don't like. Neither the OP nor you are even close to being in that very small group. Hell, even Hyperstrike I like enough to still want to room with at the spring Pummit. Part of me thinks it would be kind of fun and cathartic to yell at each other in person instead of all of this typing back and forth; at least we could finish the fight by having a beer or something.

I don't hate the OP. He seems like a nice enough guy. But I still feel like he is implicitly asking the devs to provide solo-only access to 100% of the game's content. And by gummy, such is his right to ask. Other people have in much longer and heated threads than this one. But then as now, I feel that this is an unreasonable request that would do much more harm to the game than good. By explaining why, I'm hoping that the OP will understand why the pendulum will never swing all the way in his direction, and to curb some of his disappointment when more stuff is inevitably gated behind teaming.

At the end of the day, though, all of these little tiffs are moot. The devs are gonna do what the devs are gonna do, and I'm convinced that no amount of begging or pleading, whether nicely or raging, is going to make them change their minds about teaming being a fundamental aspect of what makes this game tick. While I call out BS where I see it ("firing up eight accounts isn't teaming!"), in my heart of hearts, I'm really not worried about where the game is going. That's the ultimate vindication of these arguments.

My counter is pretty durn simple. Firing up eight accounts is not soloing. If anyone else here considers firing up eight accounts and joining them all up on one team as soloing, then I give up. By all means, go join Bill on his Isle of Crazy.

Precisely. The long and short of the argument is not, "Is teaming required in this game?" It is, "Is teaming a significant aspect of this game?"

There are significant shinies gated behind teaming. Badges, accolade powers, costume pieces, temporary powers, gobs of story lines, etc. It's not a majority of the game (thus why I keep saying that the game is solo-friendly), but it is a significant part of the game. And it will continue to be so going forward.

...And there are a lot of those types of games on the market. This isn't one of them.

If you like the solo aspects of this game, then great! You seem like a nice guy, and I'm glad you're here. But if you're expecting City of Heroes to ever be a game where you can experience 100% of everything by literally never teaming up with anyone, it's just not going to happen.

I'm not being mean, and I'm not saying, "Leave!" Au contraire, I want you to stay. I'm merely saying that if the parts of the game you do find enjoyable outweigh the parts that you don't, then I really don't see the need to keep harping on something (making 100% of the content available to solo-only players) that will never, ever happen.

Edit: As fun as beating my head against this brick wall is, I really have more productive things I need to be doing. Barring Bill agreeing to stop trolling if I post something that is gated to having to team up at least once, this will probably be my last post on the matter for a while. For anyone else munching on popcorn following this thread, I'll just leave you with this.

You play the game. You know what it's like. What do you think is more likely? That the devs strive to make a solo-friendly experience but really want to encourage people to team up, even by gating content and rewards sometimes? Or that they're totally okay with everyone just being islands unto themselves, never having to speak or interact with each other? That at some magical point in the future, the devs will suddenly realize that this really should have been a single-player game all along, maybe with some teaming mechanics thrown in just to satisfy those weirdos who like socializing?

You don't have to answer, but I know you're out there. I've met a lot of you, I've talked to a bunch of you in person, and I've teamed up with countless of you. Regardless of the senseless back-and-forth in this thread, I'm pretty sure I have a pretty good finger on the pulse of both the devs and the player base. Of course, you're free to believe anything you want, but all I ask is that you really think about what makes the most sense.

So before I reply to this, I want to know up front: If I can give you one example of a performance level item that is impossible to obtain without being on a team at some point, will you drop this once and for all? I won't even demand an apology, just showing everyone else that you're wrong will be enough.

All I need is one, right? Because your claim of ZERO was rather emphatic.