Tannim222
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Posts
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Quote:This.
With very few exceptions, adding melee attacks to your attack chain as a blaster will substantially improve your overall DPS.
Talking about "playing your character to its best potential" and then saying you ignore blaster melee attacks is contradictory.
Also, using THB's one particular heavily IO'd build as the shining example that "all blasters are ok" is setting some really false expectations for everyone who wants to play a blaster.
Looking at how the AT is designed to operate, balanced with the use of SOs, since that's the primary balancing metric (though designing new powersets has seemed to incorporate many possibilities). Most Blasters can and do have difficulty in reaching and staying at their full potential. Using a secondary that requires you to enter melee and yet, being virtually defensless to all the accompanying dangers of melee is mind boggling that the idea of this being an ok design.
Staying at range, with SOs only so no capping your ranged defense, because saying that Blasters are at their full potential while staying at range, ulitizing IO sets that cap their ranged defense, for one ignores the use of the secondary melee attacks, and the other, ignores the fact that you shouldn't be required to IO a build in order to work as well as other ATs that wouldn't need to use IOs.
It's like saying, hey scrappers are fine on SOs, but if you want your blaster to be just as good, get some good IO sets into him and you'll be as good as that scrapper. Use /mental and billions of inf, and you'll be better than most scrappers is not good AT design metric.
Blasters should be able to reach their full potential and not have to face such a high defeat rate for to do so. IOing should push them beyond their intended potential, that's what IO sets are meant to do. -
When your argument requires that a player neglect a majority of their character's secondary set because it boils down to "it's safer to stay at range", then there's a flaw in reasoning.
Blasters have melee attacks and while they can be built to stay at range, which is fine if that's your concept, they shouldn't all be required to operate that way in order to survive. -
It's not so much as Tanks aren't good enough for their designed role. They're stury enough to do well. It's just that the mechanics behind how Tankers operate are so subtle that unless you know about them, you'd never know they were there.
I've seen people ask out loud why Tanker attacks can be slotted with taunt. And really, if you didn't know about gauntlet, everyone generates aggro by attacking, so it doesn't feel very different when you're using a Tank.
The only thing is the sense of sturdiness and that when you mash the Taunt power, you instantly nab mobs' attention. Which is a concept given many other games.
There's seems to be sufficient reason to warrant the devs to take another look at Tankers. Enough so that Synapse has stated that they'd do so.
I'm certainly not advocating for a new inherent that increases damage - or at least not directly. I'd like it if Bruising worked with other powers in the set and had some ability to stack with other Tankers. But I get it if that's not feasable.
The change may be as simple as providing effects for guantlet to show on mobs, or something to do with the new Absorb mechanic. Wouldn't it be interesting if Tankers had a MM like ability to guard nearby players and absorb some of their damage. -
I'll place order of priority:
1. Blasters
For me, this entire AT is still falling behind other ATs. After two rounds of Defiance, it's still not there.
I still think that Defiance shouldn't have been about damage, but about mez protection. Keep attacking to stack Defiance buffs to make you fight through mez attacks.
Then to resolve the damage issue, adjust the base ranged damage mods upward a bit.
Be sure to all the melee attacks have short duration soft or hard control components to them.
Now that new tech is available, 3 stacks of defiance allows snipes to have a new, uninterruptable short animation allowing them to be used in combat (that and snipes need their current dpa adjusted upward). And all nukes should be crashless.
2. Tankers
I'm of the opinion that Tankers should have a mechanical change that helps differentiate their playstyle from the other melee ATs. There has been quite a few times that I've had to explain to new players that made Tanks how Bruising works. how Guantlet works, and what a "taunt aura" is.
Besides reading into the powers, which it seems people don't regularly do, there just wasn't any indicator to players that showed them what's going on with these effects. With Scrappers you have crits, Stalkers you had hide, now new tech which changed their playstyle - with crits, Brutes you see your Fury bar move when you're attacked and are attacking and see your damage go up. Tankers? Those new players only noticed how "tough" they were as in the ability to withstand damage. That and it took too long for aoes attacks
3. Master Minds: it's true Pet AI needs work. However, the AT over all works well. Sure there's some issues with some sets in comparison to others, this occurs within every AT. But over all, the AT works well.
If and when pet AI does get looked into, it's something that probably would take a long time because not only would it affect MMs, but every pet in the game, player and npc alike. Not to mention probably also deal with much of the reguar mob AI as well.
While to many this sounds like something that'd be worth looking into, consider that over all, the game, and those ATs that use pets are functional. Not perfect, but functional.
Once all that is done, or perhaps while that's being done, then some other powersets that need adjusting can occur.
That's were you get TA and Mercs fixed. Those aren't necessarily AT issues, but powerset issues. -
I'm waiting on a lead gm to respond to my petition and I also filed a bug report. I can't get ol' gabe to recognize that I've completed all the DA arcs, namely Max's final mission in his arc. The DA badge list indicates I'm missing 1 more thing and Max's mission completion (friendometer) is only 1/4 a way, but I get his "you finished all my missions" dialogue when I call him.
He's also still on my active contact's list.
I've completed each of his missions 3 times now. -
The Simpsons has a few more seaons yet to go in their new contract they set up late last year.
Fans have speculated for years that the original idea for Springfield was near his hometown. I just don't see the merit in stating that it is indeed the same place, when over the years, Springfield has evolved to be the "anywhere USA" city.
There was an episode where they used the old man in the rock face from New Hampshire. Or when West Springfield was the size of Texas.
Or when Ned and Homer drove to Vegas within a day and when they left, they were headed west. I know the ol' riding off into the sunset cliche probably applies, but they were suppossed to be headed home. They wouldn't head west toward California if they were headed to Oregon. It's stuff like that which says to me that the city is more than the idea that spawned it. -
There's another method to the madness. Posting about Tankers in a Scrapper thread in an all access forum. That creates another issue where new people may come across the thread, read it, and if no one contradicted erroneous information about Tanker design, then more people may be apt to believing what they've read.
Showing the flaws in such an argument, while ultimately fultine in JB's case, isn't so much about trying to disprove JB to JB (there's always hope though
), its about disproving JB to anyone else that may read and post in this thread.
JB himself has clearly stated that he doesn't agree with Tanker design, doesn't agree with people that like Tanker's designed role, and has bad-mouthed the devs more times than I care to count.
All he cares about is getting his way, with a zealous belief that follows the litany of "the squeaky wheel gets the greese".
Only the attention that comes most likely won't deliver what he wants in qhich he'll bad mouth the devs some more and continue saying how the Tankers need to be redesigned to meet a standard that only he has personally set for the AT to achieve. -
Just a few quick thoughts.
Fault, looks as if you're going for the recharge bonus. An alternative idea is to slot the Force Feed Back proc in there. The more targets you hit, the greater the chance it'll proc. Sure, not great against single targets, but lovely with multiple foes
And since you'd be using it more often for the proc effect, it's also a great place to slot a few different damage procs as well. The perfect Zinger psi proc and explosive strike smashing proc.
Tacits, slotting a full set of gaussian's nets you higher positional defense than typed.
And the tanker mod for the to-hit buff isn't really worth it. You're better off removing the power altogether, put 3 of those slots into boxing and use it as a set mule for more Kinetic Combats which gets you another s/l defense bonus.
Use stealth instead of tactics to one-slot wonder another LoTG +rech. It might be enough stealth to allow you to zip into a mob and Fault them before they react as well. -
They warned me about the food at El Super Mexicano...Anyone got TP? I seem to be stuck.
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It does matter when the game design is taken into consideration. Something which you seem to have no idea about.
Even if the damage cap were increased, it would do nothing for most Tanker powerset combinations for a majority of the game.
As I posted earlier, chugging red inspirations or carrying a pocket kin shouldn't be considered part of game design.
Not every team carries a kinetics and outside of that, + damage buffs are few.
The dev approach to Tankers is perfectly clear, even recently with the ATO added to the game as a more current piece of evidence. The Tanker ATO set gives a resistance bonus for its special ability. Something which irked you if I recall correctly. Then again, that was probably the devs just 'trollin tankers for the lulz. -
Well, if you want to consider all those weapons Deadpool uses to be rather like temp powers,
you can get at least rifles and grenades.
You still need pistols, a katana, dual weilded swords, and explosives.
Creating a purely ranged APP may be a nice / fun idea, using pistols with the first attack being a mez of some sort, with little damage
a single target ranged attack
a cone attack with low damage with knock back
a cone attack with high damage
I like it! -
My son will probably have a blast watching this, and so will I.
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Quote:Yet since their creation, Tankers have never been about the "big orange numbers" so perhaps powerful doesn't directly equate to the amount of damage done.
No, that is the official description of Tankers, written by the devs and used on the site and all official materials. It doesn't speak of them being melee controllers. It describes them as being tough and powerful, devastating melee fighters.
Yes there are certain MMs that can solo quite effectively many things in this game, even on SOs a Bots / Traps mm can solo AVs and a select few GMs. That still doesn't mean that just because Squirrel Girl exists in a comic book that a video game based on comic books must absolutely make a character type that uses fuzzy little creatures that can somehow defeat any encounter the game has.Quote:Masterminds are an extremely powerful AT. I soloed an AV on a Mastermind before I did on a Tanker.
I'm sorry, but you need to get over it. Yes Tankers are melee aggro controllers (not in the Controller AT sense). Its at the core concept design for how Tankers have always functioned in the game. You may not like it, but then you don't really like CoH Tankers to begin with because they don't match your personal concept of what "they should be".Quote:Using a class based on the idea of a character wearing so much heavy plate armor they can't swing a sword right to balance an archetype from a whole other genre is also silly.
Back so Super Strength eh? I'm starting to really believe that you're only out to make your particular character that uses this powerset fit your personal view of what Tankers should be. It's not about game balance or anything else is it? It's a personal issue with you. As further evidence:Quote:If you look at which archetype they gave super strength to at the start, and was the only AT to have it blue side for the majority of this game's life, how can you say they're not meant to represent those heroes from the comics. Why would you give super strength to someone who is meant to be weak offensively?
So the devs are "trolling Tankers". Now Tankers are just a character based concept digitized avatars of a series of mathmatic computations. They don't feel anything and therefore can't be trolled by anyone.Quote:As far as I'm concerned, Brutes being allowed to exist with the caps they have when Tankers are not, Fury being hijacked and Tankers being forced into being low damage decoys has been the devs trolling Tankers for years.
Players to play Tankers if that's your meaning, well then I think what you really mean is that they're trolling you as a player who plays a Tanker.
I think it actually laughable that in Paragon Studios there's an employee mandate (probably written in the dev employee handbook) that any dev working on Tankers must somehow troll the those players who play them.
Really?
JB you keep saying how Brutes can reach the same caps as Tankers and do more damage. For one, during the majority of the game this isn't true. The investment in powers and SO selection alone won't get Brutes to Tanker levels of defenses. It takes them so much more to get there.
And yes, they do more damage, eventually. For most of the game, they need that damage because they don't have as much defenses to get there. They even have to work for it unlike Scrappers.
But we'll take your statement and really break it down.
A Brute will reach Tanker caps:
If they choose the appropriate powers and power pools.
If they invest in a number of invetion origin enhancemens set bonuses.
If the player is a VIP or purchases their way to do so.
If they are on a team with the appropriate buffers for resistance and / or defense, and of course damage. During which time they may not be continuously buffed or at max Fury.
That's a lot of Ifs and even if it all happens, when it does its such a small, small amount of time and player selection that it doesn't warrant balancing an entire AT over the entire course of the game. -
No, that's your definition of what "Tankers" should be. And please, stop bringing "the comics" into this discussion. Yes, they're the basis for the game, but how a game works and how the writing of comics work are completely different.
After all, if we're to follow comics than squirrel girl arguably a beast mm is the most powerful AT there is, capable of defeating anyone and anything she encounters.
I've seen players post very logical arguments showing how Spider Man could fit the role of a Tanker as much as a Scraper. Is the Hulk a Tanker or a Brute? Before Brutes, he was a Tanker now its a subject of debate. As fun (to some) as those discussions can be, ultimately they're pointless as this is a game and it is far, far different from a comic.
Using comic book writing as a reason for game balance is just plain silly.
And no I don't want to see Tankers become healers / buffers. And while yes, they are or were closer to the melee version of controllers I don't know if additional melee control is necessarily the way to go either.
If you look at how the Tanker powersets were designed, and how the first scrapper sets were, more Tanker sets had a mez or knock effect than compared to Scrappers over all. That added, with their high defensive capabilities, mad ethem very safe, and add much to the safety of their teams with those tools.
It's quite plain that you don't like how CoH Tankers are designed, but love the idea behind the comic book "Tanker" concept so much (and probably have a much loved character that you want to be buffed), that you won't be happy until you're particular vision is fulfilled.
In the past you've flat out trolled the devs and put them down, now you've changed tactics and post thinly veiled insults about their design methods. Just as Arcana called you out about your change in posted methods about this very topic, which I've said as well, in different words of course.
JB I love your passion and dediction I really do, but honestly I believe it to be poorly and sadly misdirected. -
As a most basic level, I agree that Tankers need something to make their game play a little more different than the other melee ATs. Each of the other 3 melee ATs play feels very different from each other.
While Tankers are also different, only in that they take longer to be defeated. In most situations, I don't find a huge difference in agro control between Tankers and Brutes, though in the few sets that I've played between the two, I have noticed a survivability difference.
That's about it. I don't agree that by increasing the damage cap will resolve this particular issue for Tankers. Nor would it adequately address game play for many situations.
Chugging reds should not be considered part of game balance design for an AT.
I think that increasing damage for Tankers is quite simply barking up the wrong tree.
To use an earlier analagy, with regards to sprinters in a race, and how Tankers are always lagging behind, perhaps then they shouldn't be sprinting which is what I said earlier in responce. There are other events that they're probably better suiting for, but perhaps their toolset should be refined a bit to make sure they shine in that area. -
"as Mexico prepares to launch the far-reaching (and tourism-inducing) 2012 Mayan World Program."
That's all it's about. -
Quote:So long as the back story explains that this world either contains the creature of a spider-ant that was infused with radioactivity and bit one Peter Parker, or that the spider-and is a result of human genetic engineering and it bit one Peter Parker.Originally Posted by Zybron1
So, you can live with the premise that a radioactive spider bites a man and turns him into a half-spider/half-man super hero, but the possibility that this alternate universe could have spider-ants with 10 legs isn't plausible? :P
To not establish the existence of this creature is just poor writing
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Sooo he's now a mutated ant-spider hybrid? Spider-Ant Spider-Ant can't do anything a Spider-Ant can't...
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And the suggestion I posted doesn't change those tactics, but allows others to "run and gun" more with the set.
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I've been making similar suggestions for years now.
With the new additional power bar that was seen on beta, the devs could do all sorts of interesting things.
First, Taser. When the power hits, have a second toggle in this new power bar activate that as long as the user keeps active, the power continues to keep the target stunned.
Targeting Drone should have + range.
Trip Mines, make it a targeted location from range, with a shorter, uninterrupted animation. This way, players can still lay down a field, or while in combat, toss one out into a mob.
It'd be neat if the devs could make it get stuck onto walls, and ceilings so players could knock mobs down, or side ways
Timb Bomb, see the same with Taser, but with this new toggle (at 0 endurance cost) once triggered off, causes it to explode. -
Quote:Fixed that for youOriginally Posted by Granite Agent
The correct nickname is Scruffy. Just like we have Fluffy.
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Quote:If I'm correct, this was before the self e-mail feature and at the time, his clones upped his regen significantly. Now I'm certain any melee character I went in there with won't have a problem. When I did this with those 2 characters, it was in that window between changes.Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
Exit mission. Reset mission (to prevent uber bi spawning in meantime). Go to Mender Roebuck (He's, like, FIFTEEN FEET AWAY). Buy reds. Buy More Reds. Place in Email if you have a REALLY bad secondary. Engage fight with Trapdoor - consume reds (If you Do NOT have the +5% insp bonus, that's 16 to cap or 12 if you want build up to matter - I like to go 10 so I can pop a second round of insps).
Engage Trapdoor (Addendum - if you lack KB protection bring a couple Break Frees instead of a complete tray of Reds). After 2 seconds, he has 1 bifurcation - after 15 seconds he's down.
Next mission! (And something resembling a challenge!)
And I agree once again with JB (I think I just heard another seal breaking and trumpets blaring signifying the end is nigh) but I did kind of like that I had to think outside the box a bit and use the environment to my advantage and not a straight out slug fest. -
That's great for you. Disagree all you want, but I could not defeat him with neither my main Scrapper or my main Tank without using lava. At the time, neither was majorly IO'd out either, though my Scrapper was moreso than my Tanker, at that was with defense bonuses for the most part.
Both of those characters weren't in real danger of defeat, but the fight was a stand still. -
Blaster Snipes:
Increase the damage to make the DPA worth it. Leave the interrupt time alone. Don't weight the recharge and endurance cost on this damage change.
Once a Blaster has 3 stacks of Defiance built up, remove the interrupt time and shortern the animation time, just like Assassin strike attacks.
Now it can be used both as a long distance attack, and in combat.
Defender Snipes:
See first point in Blasters.
Once a certain % of Vigilance is built up, the attack can't be interrupted and has a shorterned animation time.
Corruptors:
See first point in Blasters.
The second part is tricky. Make it so as the Corruptor scourges a target, a buff icon appears, three successful scourges allows snipes to have shortened animation time, uninterruptable attack.
Dominators:
Once Domination is up, snipes are uninterruptable and have a shortened animation time. -
Quote:I humbly stand corrected regarding the idea being applied for Tankers. I totally forgot about that post. However, the idea, was actually brought up by a player and posted on the boards prior to that post being made. Even so, the game changed entirely when CoV began to be designed.Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
This is flat out wrong. I'll produce the very quote in question. I have a keyboard macro set up for it.
He didn't say "Here's the solution we may try" or "the solution we could try. Even if it didn't make it past play testing, in order to test it at all they would have had to write the code for that. So yes, the mechanic the was later named Fury was thought of, designed and coded for Tankers.
Which changes the entire way to look at the melee ATs from just comparing Tankers to Scrappers. Looks as if the dev at the time was posting their early, "white board" ideas without deep discussion and internal testing for balance which can be a dangerous thing to do. It sets up expectations that may not be fulfilled, as with Tankers now.
Trying to pull a quote from years ago in an attempt to state the validity of an argument now is pointless. The game has changed greatly, and there's for more to take into consideration.
When I got to him, it was before the lava immunity change, which is why I used that tactic. As it was the only way my melees could defeat him.Quote:Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
If I'm correctly remembering the evolution of the Trapdoor encounter post live, first they made it so he couldn't be pulled from his room and out of range of his duplicates regen buffing. Then in a further patch, he was made immune to the lava. For a long time he was like that, and a lot of people seemed to be having problems and eventually he was updated yet again and they down scaled his duplicates and his regen a bit to where he is currently.
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