SunderX

Ah! <lightbulb flashes on> Thank you very much! Was wondering about that

How are you gettting 400% out of rage?

If you 6 slot your attacks with damage, that will give you another 200%, plus rage's 80%. That should = 280%, not 400%. I'm curious to see what your math is.

Thanks!

Not to rain on anyone's parade, but my results were quite different.

My SS tanker is 30. I ran 2 tests with the following team make up.

Me: INV/SS, 30
Blaster: Fire/Dev /sk'd to 29
Defender: Emp/Rad, 29
Scrapper: BS/Regen 30
Blaster: Elec/Energy 31.

2 missions were run. One on Heroic Difficulty. Another on Invincible.

During the Heroic mission (fighting 30 and 31 Freaks), the only way I was able to keep aggro was to keep an eye on Rage and when it seemed like it was about to expire, go into "Taunt-Bot" mode. The 2 times I failed to do this, the Empath had to scramble to keep the blasters awake, in one case it was a darned near thing, and only the fact that the scrapper was a better player than he should be saved the Fire Blaster.

During the Invincible mission (Also against Freaks, just for consistency), we were facing 33's and 34's.
Even with timing, I couldn't keep aggro during the drop of Rage 3.0, resulting in 4 near immediate face plants for the Fire blaster, and 3 for the Defender, and 2 for the Elec blaster.

So as it stands right now, Rage is a dangerous tool to use, at 30, when my attacks are too lightly slotted to do enough damage to keep enemy interest, and when Taunt wears off too quickly on any mob higher than a +2 Lt.

So with a good team, it is possible to do missions at the lowest difficulty setting, while using Rage 3.0
With a good team, it does NOT seem possible to do missions at the highest difficulty setting, where if you DO NOT use Rage, this is not a problem. If I don't use Rage 3.0, I don't lose aggro, and the team does just fine. It's actually possible to go FASTER and gain MORE XP/TIME by NOT using Rage 3.0.

So: Tankers! Pre-40's! Be WARNED! You can use Rage 3.0... but unless your team is savvy to it, it will more likely cause your teammates to incurr debt! Statesman was exactly right... they've made Rage 3.0 a highly situational power.

Well, you did it MidniteRambler. You're the first poster to make my ignore list.

Congratulations.

[ QUOTE ]
In my example, I repeatedly referred to people on a team unable to do their jobs. Exactly for this reason. You were, by your and my lights, unable to do your job on a team, but neither can anyone else fighting groups of mobs 4 or 5 levels higher then them.

[/ QUOTE ] Good point, conceded. It is for THIS reason that I'm going to repeat my sample this weekend.
... See? I like debating this stuff with people who have good valid points. Forces good compromise and learning.
[ QUOTE ]
And my contention is that now, with Rage 3.0, you can do your job just as well, in general, as any other archetyp can do their jobs when fighting opponents that are 4 or 5 levels higher then they are.

[/ QUOTE ] Good contention, I'll go and try and prove or disprove it this weekend, then report back.
[ QUOTE ]
That's kind of like a blaster saying I would have been happy dropping like a fly after novaing that group of +4/+5 mobs if I had managed to kill all but the bosses in a single shot.

[/ QUOTE ] I dislike that analogy, but I'll concede it in an effort to promote good will, understanding, and a better CoH game for us all to enjoy.

[ QUOTE ]
In reponse to more of your whining:

[/ QUOTE ] Please learn to read.
[ QUOTE ]
1) The blaster SHOULD have been getting his butt kicked. He's a blaster with only a lvl 29 tanker available to take the damage the baddies are laying down. I'm curious to know how many groups you were fighting, becuase if it was 2 or more groups, you SHOULD have a hard time and you SHOULD get your butt handed to you.


[/ QUOTE ] One group, of even cons, of 5 or 6 enemies. I lost aggro, both other teammates went down. I did not.

[ QUOTE ]
3) I state again, you should NOT be able to agro and take on plus 4 or 5 cons. It is literally THAT simple, especially if those cons are multiple groups. I believe the devs have targetted this as an OBVIOUS exploit and/or broken feature and they are correcting it. Tankers used to agroing plus 4 or 5 level cons (and getting moocho xp from the agro) will have to adjust and fight lower lvl cons... like the rest of us.

[/ QUOTE ] You are confusing "agro" and "the ability to arrest enemies". Please quit doing so and confine your "debates" to a single subject. As it is, these types of arguments are used by the worst sort of politicians.

[ QUOTE ]
Again, don't like it? fine. Play WoW. Hephaestus is dead on with his/her comments! Whiney tankers doing mssns with blasters 3-4 levels higher than them are complaining that they can't hold agro against plus 5 cons in multiple groups. Plz, cry me a river.

[/ QUOTE ] If you are going to attempt an intellectual debate, I would suggest:
1) That you keep your comments to the topic at hand, i.e. Rage.
2) Refrain from sarcasm, as it only cheapens and degrades your point, making you seem as if the only point that you have is that you need to feel superior and are willing to degrade any viewpoint that's not your own in order to do so.
3) Learn to spell, type, or correct whatever your issue is so that you are not seen as incompetent, inferior, or otherwise out of your league.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm getting a little tired of reading whiney tankers (and it is moslty tankers) complaining that their AT has been altered and leveled off. You same people biattched and moaned like old women on a stoop when they altered Invul, even though it was obviously broken. Yet, like all other dev alterations, people eventually saw that the changes were needed and liked, and the whiners left and/or were ignored.


[/ QUOTE ] And this is constructive and on the Rage topic how??

Buddy, please please please, grow up.

[ QUOTE ]
It has been my experience that no other archetype can reasonably expect to do their proper job in a team when fighting opponents that are 4 or 5 levels higher then them. Healers can't be effective enough at healing people, buffers' buffs don't help enough, debuffers don't hit often enough, controllers can't stop the mobs well enough, blasters can't hit enough or do enough damage, nor can scrappers. Why should /Invuln tankers be the exception to this rule?

[/ QUOTE ]Again, missing the point entirely.

The point is not that I should be effective against them. The point is that I should be overpowered by them when I try to draw their aggro. If I try to keep their aggro, I should drop, due to their overwhelming power.

This is not the case. The reverse is true. I was unable to keep aggro, and they were unable to drop me.

This is the issue I'm trying to make.

Since my sample was so "flawed", I'll go and repeat it, running my OWN missions on both INVINCIBLE and HEROIC and see if I can get some teammates to come along for the experiment.

I can already tell you that the results will be the same regardless of "enemy level differences"
When you have a team of 4+ players, and running Invincible missions, you'll routinely be facing mobs that are +4 to the person whose mission is selected, so the argument that my sample was flawed is actually invalid. However, to appease the bean-counters, I'll demonstrate the invalidity of this.


One more time, just in case you missed it:
My contention is not whining that I can't take on +4's
My point is that I can't do my job role due to the inability to keep aggro during Rage 3.0's downtime
I would have been happy if I had been able to keep aggro during Rage 3.0's downtime, and had fallen like a blind roofer, earning debt

Now, please quit confusing the issue.

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmmmmm...

You are lvl 29, and you're wondering why you got your butt kicked by minions, liets, and bosses lvls 33-34.

Note to whining tankers-- you were never meant to fight groups 5 levels higher than you on a regular basis. Rage is fine. You are filled with uncontrollable Rage for a brief period and when it is done, you're tired (which makes sense if you step back and actually THINK about it). If you want to fight lvl 33s and 34s and survive, get another toon to SK you. Whining about your inability to survive attacks against plus 5 lvl baddies will earn you ZERO synpathy points from devs and other players. You will have to (GASP!) adjust your play style. No more running around taunting and fighting purple minions. You will have to adjust and fight minions 2 or 3 levels higher at best. That is what all us other ATs do (I play a lvl 29 tanker myself, along with a 43 scrapper and a lvl 15 controller).

Don't like it?

Fine. That's cool.

Leave.

WoW is waiting for you. Take your whiny butt over there, build a sword, fish, and fight dragons. We'll be fine here, enjoying our balanced game.

[/ QUOTE ]
First of all, you sir, belong under a bridge, bothering billy goats.

Second, and a far more civilized response, I wasn't whining, I was giving a case study, reporting results.

The only point that you made worth recognizing AT ALL was the fact that I was fighting +4's and the occaisional +5. Other than that, you gave no valuable input other than flaming me. I will refute what you said, then move on.

1) I wasn't getting my butt kicked, the 33 blaster was. I dropped once, because I had to train a room away from my team so they could awaken and stagger out. Other than that, I did not fall in that instance.

2) Therefore your argument about "WHINING" does not apply.

3) Therefore please take your mindless antagonism somewhere else, preferably to somewhere that reasonable people, like myself, do not have to interact with your vitriol. It leaves me feeling like I've been touched by something dirty.

Why do I say that my scenario was an acceptable example?
Because of my play style which you claim needs adjusting.

I'm an aggro tanker.
This implies that I've taken powers and abilities with that goal in mind.
1) Unyielding has 5 slots of +2 Damage Resistance
2) Temporary Invulnerability has 2 slots of +2 Damage Resistance
3) Resist Physical damage has 1 slot of +2 Damage Resistance
4) Resist Energies and Resist Elements have 4 slots of +2 Damage Resistance
5) Invincibility has been slotted for lowered End cost so that I can run it all the time.
6) Stamina has been taken and 4 slotted to run more toggles effectively, 6 slots is planned
7) Hasten has been Perma'd so that Jab, Punch and Taunt cycle more quickly and can be used to keep aggro.

Theoretically, with that build, I should have no problems whatsoever holding aggro of a +4.
My complaint was not at all that "I can't take them! I am TeH G1MP!!!".
My complaint is that Rage, in it's current 3.0 form, interrupts my ability to draw aggro. Thus it makes me less able to fulfill the role as designated by the developers.

Statesman himself has been quoted as saying that his desired vision for Tankers is to be able to hold aggro primarily by attacking. Rage 3.0 is counter-productive to this goal, in its current state.

Now if you care to have a logical debate about the merits of my actual points, I would welcome it. If you'd rather have a childish tirade and ridicule my points without actually arguing them or presenting and backing up any of yours, please allow me to add you to my ignore list.

Thank you for your time.

AT=Archetype (Blaster, Tanker, etc.)
zzz = shorthand for "I have been mezzed (held), so I can't do anything right now. Oh and if you are a Defender or Controller, please unmez me so I don't die and can contribute to the team again"
Hell = a blue cave mission in the Perez Park maze.
Main = alternate usage: Highest level character on an Account.
Farming = Running missions over and over without completing them in order to reap high amounts of XP in a short time.

Could someone please PM me a link to the Speed on Demand stuff so I can give it a whirl? I'm still using the original binds which have the chorded movement issue (i.e. can't press 2 keys at once).
Jim.Cavanaugh.net seems to be dead...

[ QUOTE ]
These quotes are your own words, Statesman. I highlighted those specific parts for a reason. The changes made to Rage undermine these very sentiments that you expressed back in, in the 'My Morning with Geko' thread.

So, what happened? Why the sudden disconnect here? Why are Super Strength tankers being put into a position where their main method of providing more power to their attacks (something you yourself said a Tanker should be doing more) then makes it so that they cannot do their jobs as you stated in the 'Yes, I've been reading the boards' post?

I'm honestly confused, and would like to know why it is that you and the dev team seem to keep switching which side of the fence you're sitting on?

[/ QUOTE ] 5 stars for you!
Exactly said, with GREAT references!

Point: The Tanker's role is to control enemy aggression.
Point: Rage's downside temporarily negates the tanker's ability to control aggression.
::Therefore:: Rage makes a tanker LESS effective.

Case study:
Last night my 29 tanker was running with a 33 blaster and a 21 Defender /sk'd to 28. We were running the blaster's missions. Difficulty was heroic.
We were fighting 33's and 34's.

3 times last night during the middle of fights, Rage's penalty kicked in. Due to the inherent LOW DAMAGE (this is what it says during Character Creation) I had not done enough damage to enough foes to keep aggro locked on me during the down time.

The result? Team wipes. Both my compatriots were unable to escape fast enough when the group of 5 enemies suddenly lost interest in me and charged them, especially with there being no way for them to know that I was "down" fast enough for them to change their attack patterns.

The current state of Rage 3.0 makes Super Strength tankers far less useful on a team. And since Super Strength is just about THE LOWEST damage of the Tanker Sets, soloing is far harder for a Super Strength tanker than for say, a Fire or Axe tanker.

Conclusion:
Current Rage makes Super Strength an unviable build for both team and solo.
This by definition is "broken".

-----------------------
On an emotional note, this pisses me the hell off, as I am a 90% team player. Great. I made a team friendly tank all the way to 30, and now he can't effectively team if I wish to do anything other than stand there and be a taunt-bot...
... Taunt-botting makes me feel OH SO HEROIC!!! Doesn't it you?

Thanks for the correction Dwimble. Post edited to reflect correct information.

Oh and please excuse the [rant]. It just annoys me is all... I'll get over it... but

...must...
...vent...
...keep skul...
... from exploding...

Take it easy!

Summary:
Rage 3.0
+80% damage boost on base damage of attacks (roughly equivalent of 2.5 extra SO damages in your attacks) for duration.
+25% accuracy boost on attacks for duration.

When Rage 3.0 expires:
-25% of base endurance (so if you're below 25% of your base endurance when it expires, you crash, shutting off all toggles)
5% defense debuff
10 or 15 seconds (heard 2 different numbers being batted around out there) of inability to perform hostile action of any kind, including Taunt.

...
Hmm...
...

The points that I feel need to be made here are:
1) Super Strength has been documented to have one of the lowest base damages of the tanker offense sets. (Axe, Stone, Energy, and Fire CLEARLY are superior, Mace being somewhat better over-all, Ice being the only one close on the bottom end)
2) Other sets mostly get a build-up like power that gives a temporary and strong boost to damage.
3) Other sets do not have a down-side to their build-up power.
4) Rage brings the base damage of Super Strength up to "par" with the base damage of the other sets.
5) Unlike build-up, Rage can be made to be run all the time currently.
6) To compensate for the fact that it can be used all the time, the decision was made that Rage needs a downside.

The conflict:
Super Strength without Rage is "sub-par" compared to the other Tanker Secondaries.
A perma-build up state is seen as "too powerful" by the people who write the game.
The various different models that have been tried to date have been seen as "insufficient" means of limiting the perma-state of rage so different changes are being played with.
The players who play SS tankers already feel inferior to other sets due to the DOCUMENTED LOW base damage.
Adding an additional drawback to a power that brings their offense "up to par" is causing a furor because that is seen as unfair .

Until such time as one group or the other (Developers vs. Players) changes their stance, there will continue to be upset.
Either the Devs need to let the SS players have perma-Rage with little to no drawback due to the DOCUMENTED INTENDED low base damage of Super Strength
--or--
The players who are counting on Rage to raise their damage to an acceptable level need to accept the fact that this is NOT what the Developers intend Rage to be. The intent of Rage at this point is to be a longer, but still temporary, damage boost. Because of the length of its duration, there WILL be a downside.

The players want the Devs to change, and see this as fair.
The Devs want the players to change, and see this as fair.

Until the Devs come out and say definitively that either:
1) Rage will a downside, get used to it
--or--
2) The position on Rage being perma- with no downside has changed to favor this application due to the low base damage of Super Strength

...there will continue to be this controversy and furor.

I personally am offended by the low base damage of Super Strength more than the downside of Rage. When I was level 11, I fought a SuperStrength troll in Skyway who could Punch me for 66 damage. I'm 29 now. At 28, I was barely able to do 58 damage (with 3 SO Damage enhancements) to an even con minion.

I'm growing disgusted with the whole debate personally, and would rather that the Devs make a statement and be done with it so I can either scrap my tanker all together, or continue to enjoy and play my Tanker with the friends I made online.

...*sigh* Whatever...

:::Edit::: Moved rant section to end of post, as it's more appropriate here and distracts less from message:::
...
[rant]
I think I'll retire my 29 Invuln/SS tanker when this goes live and start working my Stone Melee tanker instead.
...Which really sux as I have many hours invested in this character, have wanted to love the Invuln/SS tanker set since it first went live, have numerous friends that I've made that I will now LOSE BECAUSE I HAVE DELETED THIS CHARACTER!!!!!, and of course, have that general feeling that nobody at Cryptic really gives a sexually perverted rodent's actions about the kind of character I want to play.
[/rant]

LOL JaZonZ, you crack me up!

*SSSSIIIIIIIIIIIIGHHHHH*

Okay, we'll see what happens. I've got an Invuln/SS tanker who is almost 20 and HOPEFULLY (it's happened before) the Devs will make Rage useable again.

My Character concept is this:
Big, invulnerable robot.
Application: Run Temporary Invulnerability, Unyielding, and Invincible all the time, along with proper slotting, and picking up the passives (with slotting too).
I'm level 19 now (almost 20) and I have a whopping THREE selections from SuperStrength:
Punch
Jab
Taunt

The rest are all in my primary, except for picking up the Fitness Pool. I'll pick up Hasten/Superspeed at 22 and 24. I wanted Teleport, but there's just no room in the build for TWO extra powers (Perma-hasten is going to be required to keep my DPS at something usable).

I was REALLY counting on Rage (either perma- or near-perma-) to get my DPS up.

If the Devs don't fix the End Drain, with a QUICKNESS!!!, I'll never be able to use Rage to help out my low DPS. I HAVE to have 3 toggles running, all the time, just to do my job as a Tank.

The teams I run with *rely* on my tanking. I'm a self-proclaimed "melee controller". This character's concept is to keep everyone else safe by concentrating aggro on himself. The team make-ups reflect this. Makes for danged effective teaming when I can really take the beating and just ignore it. One person with healing powers, even something as low on the heal pole as Radiation Emission can keep me going indefinitely (as of level 19 )

But... There's a payoff that I've been waiting for. I'm hoping and pushing and praying that when I get into my late 20's I can start actually defeating foes instead of being a walking wall.

Don't get me wrong. I LIKE being indestructible. I just want to have some offense to follow up my defense. Some day I want to be able to arrest things by actually knocking them out, instead of standing there waiting for them to bruise themselves to death on me, or beat me until THEY pass out from sheer exhaustion.

... It looks as if the changes to Rage don't take into account the lower damage and toggle reliance of Tankers that I'll be dumping the very first tank I've had that lasted past level 16 (I kept deleting them out of boredom/frustration) and going for a Invuln/Stone tanker.


....

*SSSSIIIIIIIIGHHHHHH*

Statesman, sir, please please please, do not do this.

By zeroing endurance at the end of rage, you'll drop all 3 of my Invulnerability toggles. If you do that I'm effectively dead.

--Background Note:--

The very first character I made in City of Heroes was an Invulnerable/Super Strength tanker.

He was so pathetic back in issue 1, that he lasted about 1 month, then was deleted.

As things stand now, I FINALLY have a workable Tanker again! In ALL of the games I've played, my strategy has been "The best offense is a good defense". I've had thousands of hours of games, arguments, discussions, postings, etc. on this topic in games ranging from the original Wolfenstein to Master of Orion (1, 2, and 3) to Diablo and Starcraft, to Dungeon Siege, to Unreal Tournament, to whatever. I am a gamer.

Now all that being said, I've "suffered" through with my Tanker who's now getting close to the carrot at the end of the stinking whipping stick that is Super Strength. Super Strength is so dang weak that at level 11 I was fighting level 11 Gardvords. I was hitting them with Punch for 20 damage. He was hitting me for over 70! It's insane for the "most classic" of comic-book archetype powers to be the "weak sister" of the damage.

Why do you hate Super Strength Tankers Statesman? What vendetta do you have against them? Did one kick your puppy or something?

Please, for the love of fun in the game, just leave Rage as is. It's the only thing in the Super Strength set that balances the set back out to be on an even playing field with the other tanker secondary sets.

Leave the stun as is, don't mess with my endurance and please, I beg of you, go take your "small tweaks" and apply them to City of Villains. After the debacle with the "small tweak" to Regen Scrappers (My main is a 42 Regen scrapper), I cringe every time that I see one of your announcements that you're looking at changing a power in a powerset that I have.

Is that the kind of Pavlovian response you want from your gaming community? Fear and dread whenever you say that you're "looking" at a power or power-set?

I agree with most of the other posters on this thread: Don't kill the endurance --OR-- Leave it as is --OR-- just turn it into Build-up.

I hate build-up. I like the game play of a Tank just plain "getting mad" and opening a can of whoop-<bleep!>.

Anyway, that's my fearful ramble on the subject.

Thanks for reading. Good job on the Issue 3 art by the way... I about gibbered myself stupid when I saw how cool the Doctor Vahzilok room and the Clockwork King's Lair.

Okay, I'm off to have angst driven nightmares regarding my finally playable tank.

I'm liking the lack of "loot". It would so ruin my game if I felt I was a mercenary hero. Good thinking Cryptic.

/em clap

[ QUOTE ]
We're discussing the possibility of doing some pay-fer content (i.e. an expansion pack) in addition to our usual big-[censored] free updates and COV, but we're hella busy as it is, so we'll see. The retailers would love us if we did, and we like happy retailers (and money) - but we don't want to cut back on the Free Stuff in any case.


[/ QUOTE ] I'm not worthy! I'm not worthy!
Best dang company to every put out a MMOG.

And a link to more of the same:
Official Atta-boy thread.

Statesman said: [ QUOTE ]
Both Archetypes have brand NEW power sets.

In fact, there's 16 Primary Powers and 16 Secondary Powers.

Yep. Not 9. 16.

And there's Shapeshifting. Of a sort....

[/ QUOTE ]
<is reduced to a gibbering pile of drool in incalculable anticipation>

Heh, Kudos to you States. I love the fact that you can put up with all the cranky kids on the board and still laugh with us. Keep up the good work man.

Very useful stuff for the character planning. My main is a Regen Scrapper, who also took fitness, this is a real blessing so that I can map out what powers I can run and avoid endurance issues.

Why? Because as regen, I have NO defense vs. damage, and I need to know this stuff! Thanks!

Happy gaming!

-SunderX