Steampunkette

That's just patently false... Lawful/Chaotic is your stance on tradition/law/keeping promises while Good/Evil is your altruism.

A Lawful Good Knight could protect a Lawful Evil Red Wizard of Thay, for example, because he is bound by oaths and rules and Laws. He'd still be Lawful Good so long as he didn't perform any Chaotic or Evil acts.

And that's the Key. While an organization can be one alignment, it's adherents can be other alignments. A Lawful Good heroic character can follow the Responsible Loyalist path, even though his actions don't bring down the leader of the organization immediately, he's still fighting against criminals and murderers. Bound by Law and Rules and Oaths to keep society functioning.

A Lawful Good character can also join the Wardens. Helping people and holding to their own code of laws. Being honest and keeping promises.

Ultimately any member of any alignment can join any group of any alignment so long as the group's goals or structure allow that alignment. There are some extreme cases where this doesn't apply (The Baby-Slaughterer's guild of Evil wouldn't want a LG member and no LG character would want to join) but for the most part that maxim holds true. This exception is shown in the Crusaders, since no "Good" and Altruistic person would intentionally reprogram robots to kill innocent civilians.

When applied to such far-reaching groups as Governments any alignment can be represented. The Lawful Good Guard, the Chaotic Evil Vizier, the Lawful Neutral King, and the True Neutral Bureaucrat can all be members of the same government and support it for their own individual reasons (national pride, protection of the innocent, personal power, sense of duty).

Judging the individual based on the actions of the organization is folly. Otherwise Winston Churchill (one of the few members of the British Government railing against Hitler-controlled Germany before WW2) is just as guilty and wrong as the rest of the government when they gave Hitler the green light to invade Sudentenland.

Group Alignments are fine, but they do not dictate or indicate individual character motivations and alignment.

-Rachel-

I don't want blaster nuke rawr awesomes at level 1. But at level 30 I'd like to feel like I've made the right choice in picking a Peacebringer, rather than wondering if I'd have been better off picking a Rad/Nrg blaster with white-tinted powers and some pools to fill out what a PB can do otherwise.

By the time I'm level 30 I should love playing a given AT, or at least not feel like I'm barely contributing to a team's overall capabilities. Jack of all trades, master of none is fine and dandy... But I'd at least like to feel COMPETENT at the trades I use.

-Rachel-

Would explain the winky.... *shudders*

Though the Water Supply isn't what's being drugged. It's the Enriche. And the Enriche happens to be bottled in the Water Treatment facility. So you either blow up the whole facility and curse everyone to sickness and death, or you don't... personally I'd imagine the Wardens would be more likely to televise the whole thing, rather than blow something up.

-Rachel-

Ehhhhhwrong.

I could accept the Rogue label for a Powers Loyalist, but Crusaders are actively killing innocent civilians. There is no "Vigilante" who goes out and slaughters a bunch of innocents with rewired robots, or bombs hospitals. that's a Villain. There's no two ways to slice it.

And the Responsible Loyalist does save lives and catch criminals. They may be one what you perceive as the wrong side of the fight, but the truth is there are no heroes in Praetoria. Everyone is tarnished at least slightly. The Wardens are, perhaps, the least tarnished, but they're willing to ally with absolute villains who bomb hospitals and sentence all of Praetoria to months of sickness and death to protect them from the mind-control drinks that are bottled at the water treatment plant.

There is no completely good path through Praetoria. Only Tarnished Silver, More Tarnished Silver, Some More Tarnished Silver, or a little bit of iron-grey covered in rust.

-Rachel-

And this is where we disagree.

Maybe by some players, but you're talking to me, Bill. I'm not a collection of people who only care about stacked leadership. I care about their damage scalars (20% higher than a PB!) and their ranged attacks. Something many people don't like to notice: the PB attacks tend toward a lower endurance cost since they were designed not to take advantage of stamina or any power pools, really. And with low end costs comes lower damage per attack on -top- of the 20% damage scale difference, making their blasting damage not only weak for it's base, but even weaker for the endurance. I'll get to the defenses a little later.

Agreed! If that were the only reason to roll a VEAT I'd agree 100%

No, Bill. It's not a memory. It's me playing a Warshade and PB both, right now. The PB is at 30, the Warshade is at 28. Without at least bi-form or, more likely, tri-forming it a PB pretty much sucks. You've got anemic ranged attacks, as I pointed out earlier, but you also have piss-poor defenses. Outside of dwarf you've got -about- 20% damage reduction to most things, meaning your less defended than an even level scrapper, and you lack the mez protection. Meaning not only do you not have enough ranged damage to even wave in the general direction of being a blaster, you don't have enough defenses to stand up to more than two or three big hits in melee, and God Forbid you get mezzed and all your (20%!) damage resistance toggles go off.

And Dwarf Form has it's "Mighty" 60ish% Damage Resistance which my Brute walks around with when she's got Tough turned on.

Again, you're not talking to other people, Bill. You're talking to me. Telling me about other people's bad memories won't help.

My Fiance plays Fight Doctor a level 50 stalker who plays with my big brute Hardcastle. I've seen what a well-played stalker can do. They're still too squishy and have damage scales too low for my tastes, compared to what they do. Lower HP, Lower defenses thanks to Stealth dropping a power, usually, less AoE thanks to AS and placate, if they get any AoE at all... They're Scrapper-light outside of Hide and Critting. though that doesn't stop them from being soloable, it just makes them less useful to a team than a scrapper or brute would be.

I wouldn't want there to be a cost. I think the AT is a little too anemic on damage/defense and too reliant on the form-changing powers to make up for that problem. I'd like to see them brought up to scale 1 damage and maybe give a little more Oomph in a few of their attacks with an end-cost increase, since Stamina is going inherent that balance issue shouldn't -be- an issue.

So I'm supposed to accept a sacrifice in playability in exchange for a set of arcs I may never play? That's hardly equitable. Especially considering that those arcs are over five years old (and it shows!) and the AT is still fairly underpowered compared to it's contemporaries.

More control in a Warshade, perhaps... But a PB has 2 control effects: PBAoE Stun and PBAoE damaging KB. That's it. Meanwhile a Crab Spider can toss off a Wide Area Web Grenade and the Omega Maneuver to stop a group of foes in their tracks and taunt them onto a pseudo-pet before hitting them with a ton of damage. If you want to add the PB's pets as a stunning power I'll counter with the Arachnobots and their massive damage output increase and lightweight control effects.

Build Flexibility I can't argue wi... wait, yes I can. Human, Human/Dwarf, Human/Nova, Tri-form. Soldiers can go Bane, Crab, Huntsman (Soldier/Bane), or straight Soldier if they feel like it, or Soldier/Crab, too. A Crab Spider doesn't need a stealth power to throw out a Venom grenade, WAWG, Frag, and then Suppression to seriously crush most of the enemies in a given spawn. Meanwhile a PB can build up, Nova out, then hit Proton Scatter and, if the group isn't -too- spread out after the KB, toss out Luminous detonation at the same damage scale as the Crab's three attacks! then drop human and footstomp with a higher damage mod on a lower damage scalar (.85 compared to 1), and if the group isn't -too- spread out by the various attacks he might even KO half of them! After that another luminous Detonation and a Proton scatter which are both much weaker than their nova-form's powers, especially if they bothered to slot the Nova...

Yes, Yes. "Control your KB Young Skywalker" I get that. But sometimes there isn't a wall or corner to try and fling people into, or you have to get close enough to get mezzed to do it thanks to a narrow corridor. And once you're mezzed Nova-ing some ranged damage isn't an option. you have to go Dwarf and while -their- damage is a scale of 1 they still have lower-end cost attacks with lower damage than your average Scrapper. So you -HAVE- to do a Tri-form to have the same damage scales or survivability as a VEAT, meaning your "Build Options" are translated into "Different ways to be gimped by comparison"

This is why I like the Mirror-Slots option or bringing their Damage scalars in human-form to 1, maybe increasing their Nova and Dwarf scalars to 1.1, or perhaps doing all three modifications. Add in an increase to each of the Low-endurance powers (with consummate increase to end cost now offset by inherent stamina) and you've got a real winner!

And that's something that we both agree on. I vastly prefer the idea of playing a kheldian. I usually want to do either Humanform Peacebringers (Because I like the idea of using 1 power to do most everything a hero typically does, like Melee ranged defense control and sometimes support) or a Humanform or Tri-Form Warshade. Warshades, by far, have the better "Humanforming" ability, once they get Eclipse and get some recharge rate bonuses, but I still find myself being forced to multi-form up to that point.

I shouldn't be FORCED to multi-form just to maintain basic survivability. Without it I've got less HP than a Blaster (and only about 50 points more than a Controller or Defender!), less damage than a Dominator, less defensive power than a scrapper, less control effects than a Blaster...

I've always said: If you're going to make a Jack of all Trades character, make him as good as the best of each other character, but don't make him as comprehensive.

For a Peacebringer this would translate to upping the humanform base damages to 1, the nova and dwarf form damages to 1.25, increase their damage resistances or add some additional resistances to the different toggles to bring them up to around 35-40% with all toggles running, and give them a bit of mez-protection outside of Dwarf (maybe have absorption give 1 point and one of their toggles give 2 for a total of 4)... In Nova they can do just as much damage as a blaster, but only have 4 attacks and no secondary abilities. In dwarf form they do as much damage as a scrapper, but only have the 4 attacks. in humanform they do less than blasters or scrappers but can competently do both (at stalker level, coincidentally).

Barring that, Mirror-slotting could make the forced tri-form character design more palatable, though I'd still prefer to see their damages and defensive abilities fixed so that Humanform becomes not only a viable build with enough IO slotting but an attractive alternative to multiforming.

-Rachel-

And this is where I disagree with you, Sam. >.>

But not by much.

I think the Responsible Loyalists and Power Loyalists are both fairly heroic throughout most of their careers. There are low moments, like when the Power Loyalists disguises up to rob a bank, or the Responsible Loyalist doesn't tear apart the Seer Program, but in the end they're both fairly heroic. The Power Loyalist is self-serving, but he's still saving lives and helping people. He's the "Booster Gold" superhero. The Responsible Loyalist is still saving lives and helping people, he just has his hands tied as to how much he can help them, he's the "Status Quo" superhero, trying to keep things from getting worse for people.

At the end of the Responsible arc is where you truly get to see that a Responsible Loyalist really -is- a Responsible Superhero. When he shoulders the burden of convincing Paragon to help take down Cole, but wants to do it without destroying Praetoria. The Crusaders and Wardens just want to be in power, and don't care who has to die to get Cole out of power... as long as it's someone they don't know (Wardens)

I think Mechano said it pretty much best. Though instead of "Blind" I'd call Responsibles "Chained" bound by the law. And don't forget the real meaning of Vigilante: someone who illegally punishes someone for actual or perceived offenses, or participates in a group which metes out extralegal punishment to such a person. Often the victims are criminals in the legal sense, however a vigilante may follow a different definition of criminal than the local law.

Which means Wardens are Vigilantes, not Heroes. =-3

-Rachel-

While I accept Bill's basis for the statement, I think it's fairly blatant that EATs are not as effective as VEATs. A Buff would be appropriate to help level out the difference between the two.

Expecting players to use IOs to make up the difference doesn't work, and the balance is still tipped in the favor of the VEATs. So the balance issue between the two still stands.

If EATs need IOs to equate to base-level VEATs there is a disparity there which should be remedied. A buff to the Kheldians would make them more welcome on teams and a more sought after AT for individual solo players. A Nerf to VEATs would make them less sought after and less useful for teams. Given the choice between the two actions in an attempt to get the ATs to similar level of power, I'd prefer to see the weaker AT buffed than the stronger AT weakened.

YMMV

-Rachel-

Which Dev was it that stated Balance wouldn't be based on IO sets?

There definitely does need to be a fix of some kind. I agree mightily with the Dwarf-form change, and would like to see the form change power animations lowered in duration. I have enough problems with the lag-spike I get from going Dwarf or nova when the camera is close to the character, shortening the animation for the change might make it a bit more tolerable.

Inverting the inherent? I kind of agree with that, so long as it -also- effects the Kheldian or Nicti in question.

Giving them extra slots for all their form-powers... That I can't really get behind, I'm afraid.

However, I think I proposed a suggestion at one point that for every slot you put in the BASE form-power you should get mirror-slots in all the powers which spring from it. (2 slots in Dwarf = 2 slots in all dwarf powers)
And yes. I realize that would allow EATs to amass more set-bonuses than any other archetype. The question then becomes: Would that be enough of a change to make EATs as Epic in play as VEATs?

Yes. I know. the Story is the Epic Part. Go back, reread the VEAT content, and then put your argument away. Besides, the EAT-only Content is incredibly dated and has no signs of being added to or updated

So yes. I think the Mirror-slotting idea would make them much more playable, and with Set IO bonuses carrying over they could be very powerful. Though if people think that's "Too" good they could (feasibly, I don't know the amount of effort involved to adapt this) use the Dual-Build tech to separate the Set bonuses from the forms when the player isn't -in- those forms.

-Rachel-

I actually find it most useful on scrappers, brutes, stalkers, and tankers.

Doesn't have to stack, really, to take all the minions out of the fight while I wail on the LT or Boss and they fuel my AoE Taunt Aura ability or just put them out of the fight while I placate someone and tear them a new .... nostril.

-Rachel-

Eh... Rogues get Duplicity, Vigilantes get Fear Incarnate, and Villains get Frenzy.

No matter what you do you get a temporary power. Whether YOU feel one power or another is "Better" is your own business. Personally I like the Rogue and Vigilante powers better, nine times out of ten, but use the hero and villain ones while I'm grinding A-Merits.

Faster recharge PBAoE control effect which takes ALL the minions out of a fight? Yes Please!

-Rachel-

If you are working for the People of Praetoria, with whom your loyalties lie, you can let her go.

People loyal to Cole just turn her over.

-Rachel-

I do like that idea, adding the +Regen to the lightning field would work wonders towards helping the set survive.

And the Self-Rez in Willpower is mainly for Alpha-strikes which rip your meager damage resistance to shreds (I'm looking at you, Cimerora! )

-Rachel-

Alternately, More damage per tick, shorter duration. Works out to a similar power. Drop the slow component to let foes get out of it more quickly (since that's part of why Rain does as much damage as it does) And you should be good to go.

And a single target Extreme damage attack with an AoE Moderate hit could be a really neat power, I think. And it'd work for the "Explode" power concept.

-Rachel-

How often do you die that this would be a required change? The following numbers are from Brutes.

Charged Armor
26.25% S/L
26.25% Energy

Conductive Shield
26.25 Fire
26.25 Cold
26.25 Energy
15% Negative Energy

Static Shield
26.25% Psionic

Grounded
9.375% Energy
7.5% Negative Energy.

All totaled that's
26.25% Smashing/Lethal or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Fire or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Cold or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
61.875% Energy or roughly 93% with 3 SOs
22.5% Negative Energy or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
26.25% Psionic or roughly 39% with 3 SOs
0% Toxic Still 0% with 3 SOs

The only damage type Electric Aura can cap for damage resistance is Energy. With your proposed change it would reach around 79% with 3 SOs in each of the powers which grants energy resistance. So not only would you BREAK THE COTTAGE RULE by completely changing the functionality of a power (It's primary use becomes a self-rez with a secondary benefit of being a resistance power, rather than just being a resistance power) but you also take from Electric Armor the one capped resistance it has, causing them to potentially faceplant that much more often.

-Rachel-

You mean something like CoH2: The Pink Unicorn City of Everything I Always Wanted?

-Rachel-

No. No. No.

You're changing the basic function of the power. It goes from Constant Resistance bonus to situational resistance bonus useful only in avoiding incurring -additional- Debt because you've already died once.

This changes the basic function of the power.

Energize: 59.6% end discount plus 374.8 point heal.
Conserve Power: 100% end discount.

They -added- to the power, and lowered it's main ability slightly, but it remains an End Modification power, primarily. (60% end discount compared to a 25% heal)

What you are suggesting is changing a Damage Resistance Power into a Self Rez with a damage resistance component. The Cottage rule is not only broken, it is also set on fire.

Memphis Bill is, as is often the case, right.

-Rachel-

Specifically, Paragraph 3 of the "Purpose" heading.

Middleware being the rest of the engine. Not just contact coding but also designations for what objects interact with what abilities or even other objects, such as a "Ghost Box" which clips with the environment and objects but not player, requiring the player to push another physics object against the "Ghost Box" to move it.

I stand by my previous statements.

-Rachel-

Some graphics engines are designed to be (more or less) drag and drop within their programming language. Same electrical system, replace the cracked engine block.

-Rachel-

I like Wormholing groups of Hellions or clockwork into Wentworths or the AE as a way of making people got "WTF?!" as a pile of corpses explode into the building.

>.>

-Rachel-