Stalk_obot_EU

lies, i had 4 level 50 veats weeks ago :P

Irrelevant, anyone with half a brain and unlimited resources can make a killer build for anything. Fact is those same resources will yeild better results in the other 3 veat branches.

Banes are not bad, they are just not as competitive as the other veats at the moment.

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cold corrs are better than ne SoA toggles check out the stats

there is already too much SoA should stick to SoA teams whilst other ATs get left out, i was play on 2 corrs thermy and cold and it took 30mins on both to find a team that

a) didnt mind having a non SoA in them
b) wasnt a team where i couldnt get ne xp (fills were goign out)
c) wasnt full of obnoxious 13yr olds (rant over)

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cold corrs ahve to actively dish out their sheilds every 4 minutes, thats 2 per member and gain no benefit themselves and dont defend against unpositionally typed psi attacks. A wolf offers 16% defence fully slotted (to cold corrs sheilds 17.7%) just by standing around.

When it comes to comparing the benefits of /cold sheilds to wolf spider maneuvers then cold corrs come off second best when you factor in everything, thats not to say they are better than cold corrs as cold has some awesome powers but you cant lambast SOA just because you couldnt get a team. Besides any team that wants specific ATs on a team is never worth joining in the first place.

double post

easy to say what to miss

on TA skip flash arrow and ice arrow, the rest all have significant uses

Psi I would skip psi lance, psi scream, psi tornado and psychic wail

they are not a group AT they are a solo AT with passive group benefits.

The toggles are an integral aspect of their own mitigation and thats why maneuvers at the VERY least should be taken ASAP. All the stacked benefits are just gravy but the leaderships that Veats have access to seem to be tarred with the pool powers brush which they are not.

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I've had another look and i'm pretty sure you can not get 71% on both melee and ranged defence. I have after a little play now got these totals.

melee:79.9%
ranged:20.4%
AoE:75.7%

Again, that's without the T9 kuji-in retsu, maneuvers or weave.

maybe range was mistakenly quoted instead of AoE and therefore ranged being the lowest.

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no, my aoe defence is my lowest (out of hide)

go cheapo mixed set multi aspects over generic IOs, the benefits are massive, start this at lvl 22, they beat generics and SOs hands down.

See if you can get aid self in the build.

Get crowd control soon as you can, same with shatter, both of them are great moves.

I would leave assault till later

I would take the def debuffs out of surveilance and put into call reinforcements and get some acc/dam in them

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Good point on khelds, thats probably why Bane will be the WotM (worst), simply because the 'pro' said they suck.

There are many gimped sets, AT or sortlike in this game, never they have done anything to put them in line with the other possible sets. Even less experienced players can get along, at least in Heroes. Villians is way more 'set specific' team picking.. sadly.

The (imho) mistake devs made on bane.. weapons. You are nearly forced to go pure mace or pure gun (bad choice imho), basicly forcing you to be 'job specific', rather being such versatile as widow or spider can be.

Whatever happens to banes, or every VEAT, there will be lots of lvl50's. The ammount of PL'ed VEAT's will go higher then the lvl50 fire/kin's on heroes.

But how do Soldiers show up in search after their 2nd tree? Teams wont know if they pick a spider or a bane, chances to get kicked of the team?

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well so long as they have slotted manuevers and tactics I dont think any team will be too upset, its the defensive equivilent of ice sheilds slotted with 2 generic IOs for defence (about 16%) for everyone without having to recast and 15% more damage is always nice.

You raise a fair point and one I havent mentioned here and thats on the redraw of banes, should they want to take burst or heavy burst from the wold spider set and mace attacks then there is a horrendous amount of redraw and it should be the worst of the game, Before anyone says that redraw is factored into the attack animations that is incorrect, BaB recently posted that he thought that redraw was included in animation times but that was not the case.

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You CANNOT base a game around the playerbase being smart, thats a recipe for disaster as the vast majority of people are stupid, this is why we ahve the AT system so no matter what people do they cant screw themselves up soooo badly it cant be corrected.

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Insulting the vast majority of the player base would be wrong, insulting anyone here has not been my intention. The AT system is there so that those new to the game wouldn't screw up their builds so easily. The VEATs are for people with 50s and so aren't completely new. The game has to be somewhat both challenging and fun. You have a difficulty rating to play with to get that.

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Its not an insult, people are stupid, to steal a line from men in black “a person is smart, people are stupid” my facetious remark about governments shows this quite well and the average IQ is still around 100 and that’s really quite pathetic, you need to stop assuming people are you because they are not. People have a tendency to consider the people around them average when they are not, what they are is average for your social standing. Voices on the forums carry remarkably little weight because the average player doesn’t even peek in here

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I placed banes as my second favourite veat in terms of fun but Im what I would class as an advanced gamer with massive resources stored up on my private bases.

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I really wish I hadn't deleted your private message from a couple of years back.

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Really whys that? Because I may not have understood how things worked and I asked you a question? Oh noes. Allow me to fill in a little of my past for you, most of my in game friends know this. When COH was launched I was working and living in Los Angeles, doing computer game software and design, I played the game since launch, my first character was a ar/em, I took fly, tp, medicine and every primary power and loved that character, I knew little about the game and leveled in debt mostly. A couple of months later I spent a week on life support due to a rather serious prescription drug reaction and was supposedly deceased for a time. When I came out of hospital I weighed significantly less than I did before had massive gaps in my memory and was brought back to the UK. Couple of months after that I saw a COH box, remembered how much I liked it, couldn’t for the life of me remember my old account and password information so started again, back on the EU and once again I didn’t have a clue what I was doing. I still don’t know everything there is in this game, just NOW I know pretty much most things but that’s taken a while and there are always things just around the corner that surprises you. Hell it took me until level 41 to know what a SO was, I didn’t know why people were healing for far far more than me, I didn’t take stamina until very late and I’m proud of how I behaved, I’m not some elitist jackass. I will always say we were all newbs when we began and I personally adopt a new one every couple of weeks in AP to assist them with starting the game with money and advice, the last guy was an archery/ice blaster, hes lvl 45 now. So you take exception at my definition of me being an “advanced gamer”? I have played many games, I have designed and programmed them and I have a pretty good knowledge of this one now as I have played it since release (sans several months forced absence) and it’s the one game I keep coming back to, I have at least one level 50 in every AT (but khelds and MMs)

As I have said Im not ashamed of my mistakes of the past, sure it’s a little embarrassing but if you can’t laugh at yourself what can you do? My first sg here and plight trawler can attest to my n00byness but as time goes on I learn some more and remember some more.

I stand by defining myself as an “advanced gamer” its not some form of ego massage just where I am now, same as if a brand new player turned up they would be a “beginner”

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Buffers are the easiest to play

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I disagree, playing a buffer means you are running around with a bif "kill me first" sign on you and thats not what a new player needs.

The op should roll a stalker with stealth and a stealth IO so he can both indulge in pvp and observe

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Fair enough, I always find a buffer easier to play, never tried stalkers though. Melee toons just seem like they chase more than actually do anything.

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thats true and its a pain in the [censored] with the latency of the game meaning that you can be on top of someone and still not have your attacks fire, pvp i feel they should extend melee range to 10ft to compensate but thats just me.

Personally Im pretty sucky on a buffer, corrs are a good mix of buff and attack but the problem for a lot of new people is that jerks are drawn to ganking them over and over because they are easy targets (and jerks are jerks) I highly recommend stalkers as you can watch and plan and get a feel about what eveyrone is doing and interact at a time of your own choosing. They are a great "beginner" AT but i could be bias

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The game has a 16 rating on it. I'd expect people above the age of 16 to think for themselves, learn and adapt on SOs alone.

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What you are doing is basing other people on your own expectations and working and this is wrong, you need to base things around a core customer and this is much closer to my mum than you or I, you want proof of this? go around checking the info of people you dont know and laugh at thier power choices

You CANNOT base a game around the playerbase being smart, thats a recipe for disaster as the vast majority of people are stupid, this is why we ahve the AT system so no matter what people do they cant screw themselves up soooo badly it cant be corrected. I know people who were in COH alpha and ran around with such joys as energy blast/energy melee/invulnerability toons, however if that system went live there would be people who rolled ff/empathy that wouldnt have been able to solo anything ever and thats why the AT system was born, to prevent people from making something "gimped" getting frustrated and leaving

The game has to appeal to the wider demographic or none of us will play it for very long as the servers wouldnt be up for too long.

I placed banes as my second favourite veat in terms of fun but Im what I would class as an advanced gamer with massive resources stored up on my private bases. However fun doesnt equal balanced and thats what I am all about, I will be making a NW first but I dont want my NW to be better than the other veats and I dont want banes to be lagging behind.

I couldnt care less if you personally enjoy banes and neither could ncsoft because quite frankly you are too advanced to be of the target demographic, this isnt khelds, the developers have made it clear this is not a "advanced AT" debacle that khelds were (yes I know people enjoy them and play them well but they were a commercial disaster for the percentage of players on them and the amount of resources invested in their creation)

They will never plan another AT for "advanced" players or for the most basic, it will only ever be for the middle ground but thats ok, because inventions opens up a whole realm of options for "advanced" players to expand, customise and make their mark on their characters.

The vibe I am getting from your post is that you "want" to play one to prove that they can be made sucessful, well thats just meaningless, my ea stalkers only had hide (no choice) and entropy (mez protection) from the secondary and EA underperforms badly enough without ignoring most of it but my stalkers were very sucessful but thats how not to measure a powerset. You want to play a challanging powerset? Go roll a /elec stalker, its proven to be horrendously bad and a bottom performer and castle knows this but little can be done now as its been anounced and someone out there will want it and as its a direct port you ahve to be careful what you change due to the tables the powers draw from.

Dont expect people to play like you do, dont expect people to know what you know, dont expect people to be able to use inventions. Judging others and AT design on yourself is just failure which is why I will always think about how my mum will manage as she is a big fan and long time player of the game, as i have said, she is much closer to an average player than I am and its average players who finance the vast majority of the game.

When I analyse and test things I dont primarily base things around what I want, I try to take a much broader overlook on things.

As for you expecting people over 16 to be able to think for themselves, well thats just silly, after all, look at the governments over 18s vote in.

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Buffers are the easiest to play

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I disagree, playing a buffer means you are running around with a bif "kill me first" sign on you and thats not what a new player needs.

The op should roll a stalker with stealth and a stealth IO so he can both indulge in pvp and observe

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I have been finishing a rather nice planned builds for all the VEATs. 8 different types, 2 of each. The powers lend themselves to several types. All the power pools are open to help round off the type your making, and IO sets a rank it up, with not even the most sought after I have no trouble reaching elude levels of defense. In planning builds I was picking IO sets I don't normally consider. I felt that new territory is what it is and there is a chance they all lack something. They sure will built wrong.

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this is wrong in designing an AT though, I can bypass the deficincies in just about any AT but not everyone has my resources or knowledge. Yes you can patch up pretty much all things but you shouldnt have to. There shouldnt be a veat thats "harder" to play than the others without specific in game warnings to the playerbase.

I will refer to my mum again, shes what I would consider a "core" customer, long time player, not a forumite, lots of vet rewards, a few lvl 50s, plays content, doesnt min/max. She shouldnt have to min max or delve into various pools to shore up a veat branch over another.

Yes bad builds dont function as well as good ones but not everyone analyses the game and IOs (which are totally OPTIONAL content and are not a basis for balancing ATs) staying inside the primary and secondary powersets you shouldnt be able to "gimp" yourself. My nightwidow doesnt even have aid self yet my bane HAS to have it and use it often.

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Nin's advantages over SR:

- Two taunts available, one of them pbaoe


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Ninj has 2 taunts?

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You all got a level boost I take it?

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yep we got lots of them, the lvl 50 one came the morning before open beta if I remember correctly

To clarify the bumps were not just 1-50, they were incremental so all aspects of leveling was taken into account

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No lol, he has a US account. We don't actually get the same benefits or bang for buck. Not worried though. I am sure once knowing what its like to have a lvl50 of them, sometimes the cat would of been killed and only sentimentality could bring them back.

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thats a semi fair point, if I had done 1-50 per veat branch I doubt I would touch another one ever, having sampled them all at various levels I will be making at least one of each.

They are all a lot of fun, even banes which I do contest are not strong enough in their current incarnation. In terms of my personal enjoyment banes are second behind night widows and its fortunatas that lag at the back. (but banes still need a buff)

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Oh and your numbers on getting hit are wayyyy off, many more mobs red side have +tohit than heroside AND you failed to mention that you were talking about even con mob accuracy.

As for 40% better damage mitigation than ninj you are talking total [censored] and trying to skew things to fit your opinion, as I mentioned, ninj has many other forms of mitigation outside of straight defence

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OK can I just check my maths here, I may have made an error - please correct me:

Mob's chance to hit

(50 - your defence + to hit buff) x accuracy

Lets say accuracy is a constant "a", to hit buff is a contant "t"

SR running 39% defence

Mob's chance to hit you is (11 + t) x a = 11a + ta

Ninjitsu running 31% defence

Mobs chance to hit you is (19 + t) x a = 19a + ta

Now with t=zero (no mob to hit buff)

SR chance of getting hit is 11a
Ninj chance of getting hit is 19a

Discounting a from the equation, 11/19 is 0.58, or SR will take 60% of the average damage that Ninjistu will.

I would suggest your comment that I havent included "even con" enemies is realeted to the pre-scaling defence days. With the new to hit formula, level of mobs is irrelevent in value of defence, and the proportional advantage of SR over ninjitsu remains constant irrespective of enemy mobs. Please correct any maths.

YOu make, however, a valid point about mob to hit buffs. I am not entirely sure how they fit in to "to hit chances" so I would be delighted if you enlighten me. However, given the above equation you would be correct in saying that the presence of to hit buffs will incrementally diminish SR's relative advantage over Ninjitsu.

Please correct my maths / understanding, otherwise, I humbly submit my figures are not way (or, as you so eloquently propose, "wayyyyy") off.


I should also make absolutely clear I have never mentioned Ninjitsu's other damage mitigation. My original post was entirely constricted to pointing out some of the maths of SRs defensive advantage, the +recharge effect of SR incrementing damage output, and SR's resistance (which I ascribed a very low value too). So please dont drag other aspects of ninjistu into the equation when you are refuting me.

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My responses are notoriously curt and often appear rude even though I dont intend it, if I have offended you in anyway I do appologise, I dont dispute your maths, merely your conclusions

for example

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That makes SR about 40% better damage mitigation that ninjistu.

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SR is a pure def set, its mitigation is defence (the resistence gain as you lose life sounds nice in theory but is pretty much garbage) ninjitsus mitigation comes in the form of defence, confusion, sleep and heals (and even a little bit of fear comes into play as caltops makes mobs break off attacking you and seemingly toggle between fight and flee responses) So while SR may actually defend against 40% more incoming positionally based attacks it certainly does not have 40% better mitigation as it has a number of tools on hand that will at least equal the defense mitigation. For example in Dev land 1 defence = 2 resistence in approximate terms of benefit.

Now you should read some of the [censored] on the US boards when they fudge figures to make what they say fit their opinions and due to this I am very particular about what is and is not said. If you ommited the extra mitigation just because you were comparing defensive values then you should have made that absolutely clear because a new player or an inexperienced one may have come in and taken you at your word and would be dead wrong in their assumptions.

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Sr gives 40% better defensive mitigation but ninjitsu has other forms to call upon

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would have been correct and I wouldnt have taken exception to. You took into account the entire SR secondary and only 2 ninjitsu powers so declaring a definative percentage mitigation benefit without any form of disclaimer about ninj having OTHER forms of mitigation I found not only wrong but personally irresponsible (especially as you mentioned SRs resistence bonus thus throwing in other mitigating factors from SR only)

SR and Ninjitsu were about equal back pre i9 but the flaws of ninjitsu can now be patched and exceed SRs capabilities now but its a one way street, SR cant gain what Ninj has and that annoys me greatly.

I actually beleive SR will gain something down the line, what i cant say, i feel a fast healing regenerative ability spread across the defensive powers wouldnt be overpowering but would increase SRs "uptime" but thats just my opinion (like 150% regeneration unenhanceable spread across the 6 mainstream defensive powers (exclusing hide, PB and elude) so giving 25% regen per defeinsive power taken. It sounds a lot but given that regeneration is a % of hitpoints and stalkers eeny weeny HPs it works out at about 6hps regenerated per second at lvl 50, as a comparison my regeneration scrapper (without IH) runs at 65 hps)

Im afraid I cant offer you any hard facts on all the tohit nonsense as I dont have the time or inclination, I can however relay my recollection when arcanaville crunched all those numbers (wayyyy beyond my capabilities) it was worked out that the soft cap on heroside is 45% defence but redside you need to be pretty damn near 60%. As I state thats only my recollection, i could be deleriously wrong. I would suggest jumping on the US forums and trawling arcanavilles posts though, they are pretty definative and developers take great stock in his work, sadly they still havent "fixed" defense.

Look it comes down to this, you didnt mention ninjitsus mitigation outside of defense (which you yourself admit) but you should have done as you were coming to definative conclusions about "mitigation". Personally I think you really need to add some disclaimers and caveats to help prevent the pread of misinformation. I dont beleive you did it on purpose now, I did at the time though but a bright chap like you should really give a balanced overview of comparitive sets in their entirity.

As for my defense concept build I am reluctant to issue details due to unconventional practices that I dont want others to mimic. I will say that I do not have maneuvers or weave, and should you ever be on freedom server I will log on Hidden Redemption and let you see the powersets I have taken. I spent a month refining the build while I was in the ukraine in my free time mainly due to having no internet and not understanding the TV.

Oh and my aoe defence is actually my weakest aspect

Again apologies if I seem rude, I dont intend to be.

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So, the answer to my question was no. Fair enough.

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No, all VEATs solo as well as each other

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Thats not true, speaking as a closed beta tester with lvl 50 bane, crab, night widow and fortunata played in SO and in hardcore IO specs I can say with some authority that they do NOT all solo as well as each other.

can they solo? yes, any and all ATs and powersets can, how well is a different matter

It goes like this, Night widows, crabs, fortunatas..........then banes. Banes are not junk, they are however significantly behind the curve of the other 3 paths due to the recent placate nerf which wasnt replaced by anything else, they were not ahead of the curve even with the 20 second placate but it certainly pulled them up to the other 3.

Banes are fun, I love mine, they have some very nice powers, they have a great deal of potential but something IS missing at the moment. The other 3 are all different but about equal-ish, banes are "ehhhh, nearly there" and my moneys on a change coming up sometime soon.

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It's not better suited for soloing.

It's not better suited for teaming.

It's not better suited for melee.

It's not better suited for range.

It's not better suited for PvP.

It's not better suited for PvE.


It's clear the devs had no specific role in mind for banes.

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you really do say the same thing over and over mate you dont think outside the box you dont consider other ppls oppinion you just regergitate the same old thing

and epic ATs aint supposed to have a specific role indeed specific roles are only in Heroes villains aint even got specific roles as all can solo
dominaters easy to solo
stalkers just as easy
brutes just as easy
corrupters just as easy
mastermind just as easy
yea and i am willing to bet... Banes just as easy
(try soloing with certain hero AT and powerset combinations!)

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what hes saying in true NOW, banes are lacklustre, its not a case of "thinking outside the box" as creataive thinking can make the crappest powersets function reasonably but the simple fact is they shouldnt HAVE to be played in this way.

Villain ATs are not designed to be an elitist "advanced" AT, they are supposed to be there for all and everyone to enjoy regardless of playstyle from the hardcore min/maxer to my mum who plays and whos slotting makes me cry. Heres the truth of the matter, my mum should be able to pick up and play the bane without carefull planning or sneaky stategies.

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Thanks for the polite response. an "I disagree" would have done.

Id be interested how you get 71% defence outside of the tier 9 power. And if you are talking teir 9, is it perma?

SR effects on damage : +recharge
Ninj effects on damage: Caltrops

IMO SR will do more damage than Ninjitsu

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haha

my 71% defence is outside of T9, clearly stipulated due to my mentioning that my PASSIVE defence is more than SRs toggles, I ahve a somewhat unique defence concept build and it works just fine. You cannot perma t9, you can get it down to 20 seconds theoretically and yes plenty of people would like my build but you should go make your own

+recharge is not a damage effect, its a +recharge effect, no matter if you had 1% +recharge or 1billion% +recharge ET will only ever do the same amount of damage per hit. BU is a +damage power, Firey embrace is a +damage power, +recharge is NOT. Yes +recharge is great, yes it can bring around your big hitters more often but no it doesnt make it +damage, what it could do is eat all your andurance meaning that you cant throw any attacks or in the case of ET kill yourself as you cant out regen the -life, see the flip side of the coin there. AND as I keep saying, you can dial in many many many more times +recharge from IOs than you can in quicnkess rendering it almost irrelevant.

The only secondary that you can say with any FACT is that dark armour will outdamage the others down to the fractional damage of dark regen and that you can throw a proc into COF.

Just for anyone unfamiliar with stalker secondaries, SR will NOT outdamage ninjitsu as SR has NO +damage powers whatsoever.

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Just anote about defence balues. Taking the above aprox 31% ninjitsu bs 39% SR...

On first glance you might think That makes SR about 25% better than ninjistu...

Now look at actually how often you get hit:

Ninjistu will get hit about 19% of incoming attacks
SR will get hit about 11% of incoming attacks

That makes SR about 40% better damage mitigation that ninjistu.

From a perspective of reducing incoming damage, the closer to the "Cap" you get, the greater the relative value.

Finally, /SR does more damage than /Ninjistu, as you have +recharge. The additional bonus to AS, Placate, and Build up should not be discounted lightly IMO.


(Additional note: nobodies mentioned SR's resistance bonus: Not a lot to shout about, but its there)

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.....

I run 71% def melee and ranged on my ninjitsu, my passive defences are more than SRs toggles

You cant attack any faster than the animations and chain will allow, once you have dialing in massive +recharge from IOs quickness is irrelevant. SR does NOT do more damage than Ninj, you cant even start to make such a statement due to the multitude of variables in the game the ONLY thing you can say is that it adds +20% recharge. Now brutes ahve SR are you going to compare its damage potential to that of fire armour?

What does SR ahve that ninj doesnt? KB protection - IOs fix, +recharge - IOs fix and yes the scaling resistences that may as well not exist for the good that they do. The one thing SR has that cant be really gained by IOs is slow resistence which is nice but not a deal breaker.

Ninj has better mez protection that cant be attained by SR an uninteruptable heal that is very very good and other mitigation powers that are very handy for slotting up.

Oh and your numbers on getting hit are wayyyy off, many more mobs red side have +tohit than heroside AND you failed to mention that you were talking about even con mob accuracy.

As for 40% better damage mitigation than ninj you are talking total [censored] and trying to skew things to fit your opinion, as I mentioned, ninj has many other forms of mitigation outside of straight defence

qr

yes

Wp is overrated, the t9 may as well not exist in pvp as you get considerably less benefit from it, yes the mez protection is good but not that good. Those who go lol @ defence dont know the joys of running perma 70% defence ranged and melee, only SS tanks with FA or blasters using pb + aim and BU really ever hit my stalker and when i see them flashing I move out.

WP is ok but real defence builds just got better as tohit is getting clamped in i12

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Nin may be better than SR globally, but SR's slow res and much more recharge specially on IO/HO'd builds make them a good option too

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So much recharge can be dialed in via IOs that point is moot,

slow res? nice enough but easily bypassed assuming u going on about pvp as its pretty irrelevant pve (etherial shift, phase, teleport, superjump and even speed bonuses can mitigate)

The holes that ninj has can all be patched up with inventions to become vastly superior to SR in all respects, the same cannot be said for SR, what ninj has over SR cannot be built in.

SR is ok but ultimately ninj is superior and more versatile

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I forsee more then widows get a tonedown, rather then bane getting a boost.

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Unlikely, widows ahve been significantly nerfed since beta began, anything further would simply make them claws/Sr stalkers without an AS. NWs are not overpowered, they are being compared to banes as both are melee centric but this is wrong, there are fortunatas and crabs to consider also and in that context NWs, Fortunatas and Crabs are all competitive with each other, banes are not.

BU was drafted into the NW powerset very recently, I wouldnt be suprised if something else pops up for banes