Spiritchaser
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Posts
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I don't have any particular problem with an arbitrary set having debuff resistance to an arbitrary debuff, provided it didn't break concept, and that it didn't imbalance the set.
You could argue that every tank set benefits quite a bit from def debuff resistance, even if they have no native defence... I'm not saying they should get it, just that the benefit is going to be real for everyone.
Having some alternate out of set source for anyone to grab such would be fine.
Still, that's not really what I want to write about... It takes a hell of a lot of inf to hardcap SL res on a fire tank, and you have to overslot both tough and fire shield a lot, but maybe you might want to think about getting as close as you can. Even the cardiac alpha can get you decently close, and if you ever really grow attached to that character and decide it's worth the (very significant) effort to stack on 2-3 gladiators strike sets and the +3 res you actually CAN get there.
Capped sl res and healing flames on a decent recharge would make almost all of the ITF a pretty serious snoozefest. -
Here's Crio's current brick build, it's what I had with the T2 alpha, so it isn't optimal
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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Here's what I'll most likely do with him:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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For the record, here's an expensive DEF build that I may do if I20 looks like I'll need it and I'm forced to be a turncoat to my res build:
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.92
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
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EDIT: and no, power sink is not slotted. Even with the first of these builds, almost anything I could really drain, I can already survive. Exceptions? maybe some bane spider intensive spawns, but I can kill those awefully fast... -
Quote:" res is quite expensive, and it doesn't offer as much protection as def."Originally Posted by Clyp_85
The reason I was originally going for mostly resistance is that I thought I would be playing on elec's/ strengths for being a resistance set and covering weaknesses in that respect, but as mentioned before by others...its quite expensive and doesn't offer as much protection as you could get from gaining more defense. I've always been iffy about defense types as I hear they can be godly one moment and then the next you feel pretty squishy. I guess its this fear of inconsistency that I kind of don't trust defense in general as well as to-hit bonuses being your bane.
I am curious about a couple of things in your post and would like to ask a few questions if I may. Exactly why do you say defense is not relevant in a number of cases? Are there cases where more defense may seem absolutely necessary? Was it very expensive to build for resistance and do you have any notable defense in your build? Also, what is that 5% of content where you need a team? (I am sure that, that 5% includes TFs, AVs, and GMs, but is there more that I am not aware of?)
In general I'd have to agree, in fact it's so self evident I'd look ridiculous not to agree.
Thing is, Res can offer "enough" protection almost all of the time, and then offer a lot more than def on those occasions where your foes penetrate defence badly. If I can wade in to hell with the res I have, well, I probably don't really NEED softcapped def on top of that.
An added benefit is that when I do get overwhelmed, and yes it definitely happens, and it'll happen more than with a def build, I tend to get into trouble "gracefully" I don't have massive big hits putting me in harms way of one more lucky shot being the end, instead I have a slow downward trend in my health bar that I can react to with energise, or with insps, or buff/debuffer/controller could react to what's going on or whatever. Now, this said, a def built electric will have a meaningfull buffer like this as well, base electric resistances are pretty good.
I don't think there's an inexpensive way to build for res, and when you are, there are really only a few types that are accessible in quantity for ANY price. The best progress can be made in psi, which can be cheep(ish), and fire and cold which won't be. Negative isn't too bad with the 4 piece scirocco's bonus.
S/L has to come from tough or overslotting your shields, from the cardiac bonus, or from spending truly obscene volumes of infamy.
The problematic 5% isnt necessarily TFs. Most GMs can't really hurt me, though in fairness, I can't hurt them either. Most exemped TFs are trivial for electric. LGTF is also a joke, though it will be for most tanks.
The problem cases are generally where massive mez occurs, where massive debuffs occur, or where there's massive toxic damage. These are not exactly common, but they can happen.
Massive negative damage is a more common occurance, since it happens in the ITF near every crystal. If we're fighting at higher levels then one inspiration is usually needed to make me comfortable there, and if I'm chewing a purple, I need to make sure I've cleared the debuffs from any sword swingers before I jump in. It's a weakness I wish I didn't have but... oh well.
I don't currently have significant def in my build. About a month ago I got all the bits to add about 22.5% def without losing res, but I've held off untill I got a bit more of a clue about what's coming in I 20 and if some different build might make sense. I've got a +3 def IO for him, and there's no way I'm committing one of those unless I'm really sure it'll be the right thing for him. -
Classic wisdom is definitely to augment def and let the res bonuses rot. It's a good plan, it's cheaper than res bonuses and it'll work.
I'm still going to make two suggestions.
1. Don't ignore smashing lethal res. And don't worry about IO sets to get it (they're prohibitive for most players anyway)
At least consider overslotting tough and charged armor such that you maximize the sl res you have. You don't need a lot of endredux, you're ele.
Personally, I've actually built to the SL res hardcap, though it took the alpha slot to get there. With hardcapped sl res and energy res, I find defence is not relevant in a surprising number of cases.
2. We don't know for sure that 45% def is the magic number. The 45% softcap has been very slightly diluted with more enemies with higher caps of late. In the old days there were rularuu, nemesis and DE quartz, but Rularuu can be avoided, Nemesis procs could be managed and DE quartz could be smashed. Then there was LR, but he was a one off corner case, and no-one really expected him to be normal.
Now, however there are tip DE with high base tohit before quartz, and lots of resistance fighters with targeting drones... seers with fortitude or something like it...
I'm not sure exactly what APEX battle maiden uses as a base but it sure as hell didn't feel like 45%.
And so on.
I would not be surprised if, over time, more and more modest defence penetration worked its way into the menu of foes. It worked in WoW in the icecrown citadel when a def imbalance between ATs occured... I'm guessing the same solution will see some of the same logic here.
But that's me, and I could be 100% totally dead wrong on this.
I built for res bonuses because I wanted to try it and because I could. It works imperfectly, but more than well enough 90% of the time, better than def builds about 5% of the time, and that other 5%, well, better hope for team support. If 70% attack base becomes the new 50% for a range of new mobs, then I'd expect to do better with my resistances than most soft capped tanks most of the time... and if it doesn't? hell it's still just fine for me. Maybe I'll go for the barrier incarnate power. -
Quote:I would really prefer to go with a [edit: hypothetical] psi epicOriginally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Edit -> We'd also need a new pistols mastery for Scrappers. Just so that she can pull out a gun, shoot 3 guys dead with one shot each, and then proudly state that no force in the 'verse that can stop her.
because you know... she can kill you with her brain...
and there's always a temp power for the gun
It's unfortunate (as was mentioned in another, similar thread long long ago) that you cannot dual weild ghost slaying axes) -
Quote:It's a corner case, so I'm not sure how big a deal this is, but wouldn't it "feel" wrong if it were easier to build a scrapper to tank LR? especially if it could be done with a normalish build?Originally Posted by New Dawn
I think a BS or Kat/Elec would do it hitting the gens and Scrappers confront is reliable. I tanked 2 lvl 54s with confront at the same time not losing any aggro, if I went to a 3rd AV I wouldn't of had enough taunt to recharge. When it comes to LR he is keepable with confront so no worries there. Leadership pool taunts are too mickey mouse.
hmmn...
BROADSWORD FOR TANKS! -
Quote:You're right I should be.Originally Posted by Ironblade
Since you're talking about a scrapper, you should be using Confront (from a scrapper primary), rather than Provoke (from a Power Pool).
haven't specced that power since about I-5 so... I'm a little rusty
That's my excuse anyway. -
you know, you're probably better off with an IO'd scrapper with parry. You'd want enough native melee def to take yourself to the over-cap with two applications of parry, and you might want enough recharge to get yourself as close to 3 applications of parry as you can. You'll miss some times...
You'd still have to deal wth the channel gun, but his toxic damage is tied to his melee, so all you'd have to do is protect yourself from ranged or energy and end drain from a lucky hit
first guess? you could probably make the best go of it with BS/Invul or BS/Dark
Hell, you might even be able to go BS/Elec with tough, and just forget about dodging that channel gun. God knows you won't be worrying about the end drain if you're Ele.
If you're parrying a tower and thus dodging everything else, an IO'd accoladed Ele scrapper can probably survive that c-gun damage. Accuracy concerns notwithstanding, it could be a pretty cheap build.
I mention accuracy, because I'm not actually sure what it would take to make provoke reliably taunt LR.
It could be trivial or it could be flat out impossible without team buffs. I simply have no clue. -
My favourite thing about pre-I13 PvP? It was fun for me. I was never good but I had a good time. I had to be careful not to play before bed because I'd get too wired to sleep.
I've made two reasonable efforts to get back in to PvP since, and just haven't been able to get in to it. I dont think it's any one thing.
But you've asked for one thing.
I could say that one thing would be speed.
yet if you restored speed, you would not have fixed the system.
I could say hold mechanics, but I think both systems could use more tweeks, and while very different I don't think the new setup is really that much further from refinement than the old.
DR is not inherently evil, but the idea that it can be imposed without weeks or months of live tuning, taking significant amounts of work and lots of input from both 2 bit hack PvPers like me and from the good players is probably not the right idea.
One thing? The question almost makes a good answer impossible.
So just one thing?
Before I13 the system hadn't had a new set of rules imposed without any committment to spend the dev hours to balance them for each AT, and preferrably for as many powersets as imaginable to make them work. I13 changes didn't come with the requisite follow up.
Pre-13 was before that mistake. -
I just have to throw in my usual comment about electric and s/l res.
Electric is a LOT easier to hardcap than fire, that is, it's easier to take all the way to 90% smashing and lethal resistance.
An electric tank with hardcapped SL is going to be able to ignore a lot of situations which other tanks find challenging. It's particularly entertaining/rewarding in environments which penetrate normal levels of defence (tip DE anyone?)
Now even with 20% IO'd toxic res, massive toxic damage will still ruin my day, but I can't have everything. -
it is indeed knockback, so if you're one of the majority of players, you probably won't like it
I personally love it, solo, and feel it has surprisingly wide application on teams as well, but I'm aware that this is an opinion that is shared by a relative minority -
Quote:I just thought I'd add my two cents worth to this one.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Thought about it for a while. If I was forced to put my money down on something specific, I would say the most versatile [EDIT: specifically from a "team support can-opener" perspective] I can come up with is Earth/Thermal/Psi. ...
...
Extremely resistant, buffable, healable, taunting pet
I'm sometimes awed by just how tough stoney is, and this is particularly true with the two unique res IOs and thermal shields... with all that, he's almost immortal.
Sure there are a few things out there that can cut him down... but not many.
EDIT: I'd even go so far as to say that with those IOs and shields, he's functionally in the same durability realm as Perma PA... in the sense that you can do the same types of silly things with him... and those res IOs are nearly free.
EDIT more: I haven't tried stone/sonic with meds. I'm of the opinion that that'd be one hell of a set as well, though probably not as "versitile" -
Quote:Originally Posted by HiddenJackal
With my build I'll have softcapped defense with some decent recharge. 11 second recharge for char, which won't be enough to hold a boss, correct me if I'm wrong.
Anything that mezzes that isn't a lieut or below I can't hold with char anyways, and if they're a lieut or minion...well, they'll be dead or damn well near dead with LR+SC, right? And I'll have active defense for myself so that probably won't be too much of an issue unless we're talking about team play.
Ring of fire has some decent single target damage, something I need more than aoe...
I might just be going with RoF at this point because char won't seem to be that much of a help when my gameplan is mitigation through killing everything.
[EDIT] My mistake on char, it has a longer hold time, just forgot to replace the thunderstrike from ROF with a basilisks gaze. Still tempted to roll with ROF though[/EDIT]
Or drop fire and go mu.
You can get your blast and your AoE with no previous requirement and save a power for whatever you want...
In my own case I picked the extra zap because it fit concept better for me, but it's a functionally decent pick as well.
I picked lightning clap in that freed up power slot... I doubt many would, I'm aware that most hate these powers, but I've always loved them, and with such high recharge, you can stack it and perma stun a LOT of bosses at once, provided you can find a corner to backstop them, and provided they aren't too high con. -
Quote:I'd guess pretty similar to the way I got 90% s/l res on my electric tank, only maybe with one pvp melee set.Originally Posted by Achilles6
GUH???? I gotta ask....how did you get 86.51% s/l resistance on a FA Tank?
For the record (again), a s/l res capped ele is damned tough -
It'll be about 1.4% extra smashing/lethal resistance for an electric tank with tough
That's actually quite a bit, it frees up maybe a bit more than one slot of overslotting on Charged Armor...
so extra end AND a free slot...
meh still might not be worth it, If we had anything else to do what notices and shards right now. -
Quote:It's been a while since I played him but "spiritchaser" was actually an Ice rad, and when IOs made def capping possible, I don't remember having too much problem getting capped ranged def and (if you count the debuff) melee as well, even while still running those toggles, plus with the mez shield from the psi epic, I don't recall much of anything mezzing him.Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Because this game is up the second you get mezzed or something shoots you from outside your PBAoEs. And the endurance costs of all of those toggles meant you couldn't get any meaningful defense despite having to play squishy-tank. Hence why dramatic reductions in endurance cost totally turned the character around.
Now in fairness, he is an IO'd build. If the discussion is intended to adress SOs only then I conceed the point.
Actually I must still have some good IO's in there... I should pull those out... I could desparately use the resources... -
Same result here, Tried for a day or two now... still no luck. I'll keep trying but...
-
I don't like turning down a player on principle, but if I could magically arrange one rather than the other to appear and offer to group, I'd pick the scrapper. Generally more surivival, and AoE and sustained damage is generally more usefull than ST burst.
And at least a 12.67% lower chance to have an irritating PvP inspired name.
Edit: for the record, I'd be strongly in favour of PvE mechanics that would strongly favour stalkers. -
Quote:If he doesn't have any -fly in his attacks that'd make him a bit of a pushover...Originally Posted by Hydrofoil_Zero
I recommended flying out side the range of his melee attacks. He only has one or two ranged attacks.
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Quote:Thanks for the info... not sure if I'll be able to do too much to get past that... but at least I know where the bar is.Originally Posted by Wonderslug
His power data is here. -
Quote:If it wasn't for that toxic damage, S/L res capped electrics would be really really great.Originally Posted by Auroxis
Elec is actually one of the better primaries for recluse tanking. I'd rank it behind Stone and Invuln.
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I'm curious to know if anyone has recorded LR's actual damage output, or if there's a good place to find it.
I'm somewhat confused by my first experience with LR. Yes he hit hard, harder than any other single AV my tank has ever faced...
But I didn't percieve it to be as hard as some have perceived (My ele/fire gets his def with inspirations, SL res and E/N res are hard capped with alpha boost, the odd IO and some minor overslotting)
If no-one's done this I should probably do it myself, the next time I get a large chunk of time when I'm not watching the baby, and when there isn't something else to it might help explain what happened, which was less severe than I'd gone in expecting.
It wasn't nearly to the point where I'd be comfortable without purples, but I'm certainly thinking there might be other options than the (adjusted) soft cap -
Quote:Fair enough... so it's either invul or... invul?Originally Posted by Werner
It is if you want to Tank. You will not hold any aggro with a Scrapper damage aura since they have no taunt component and anyone can outdamage an aura.
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I'm thinking aggro holding is going to be more of an issue
My tankers and brutes had extra tools to hold aggro. Even with provoke, this guy is going to really depend on his aura... -
Quote:I'm not sure that it makes sense to discount fire, dark or electrical with positional def bonuses to shore up parry...Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
No WP, no Shields... Have fun with your BS/Inv. It should be fun =)
Unless the scrapper invul taunt aura is THAT superior to dark/electric/fire damage auras...