Solo_4114

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Why don't you try reading the thread Solo... instead of posting useless ideas that don't have any merit in game. You can't take missions above your level just because you want to. Street hunting is boring and stupid and something that I honestly think does not belong in the game. It should not be so prevalent.

Bugging people to join your group only to kick them out a moment later is a really stupid idea. For one, it only lasts for the first floor of a mission. Two, it could garner you a bad rep in game for joining and quitting groups. Three, it takes too long. I have a limited amount of time to play. I don't need to waste the time I have cajoling people into joining my group. They have better things to be doing and so do I.

Not using inspirations or certain powers is just dumbing down yourself which is also flat out stupid. I will not play that way. I will use every means available to my characters to defeat the enemy. I will not play dumb. The rest of you can just learn to play smarter and everyone will be better off in the end.

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Alright, I don't normally do this, but in this case, I'll make a special exception.

What did I do to deserve a response like that, huh? All I did was try to get the thread in a more civil tone and offer a few suggestions. They were serious suggestions, too. I wasn't trying to be patronizing. You don't seem to like the suggestions, and that's fine and dandy, but again, you instantly go straight for personal attacks.

I realize that you may feel like you're PERSONALLY under attack here, but let me clue you in on something: You're bringing it upon yourself.

When you lash out at people for NO reason whatsoever, they'll tend to regard you poorly. Personally, I have no clue as to why you decided to make it personal, but I've had about enough of it. Settle down. It's not you against the world, ok?

Ok, let's everyone take a nice deep breath and settle down, shall we?

It's pretty clear that opinions on both sides of the issue are strong. However, the current tone of the discussion is going to get what could be an otherwise constructive thread closed VERY quickly.

If you like reduced difficulty, great. If you like increased difficulty, huzzah. How about this.

To make the decreased difficulty version of the game more enjoyable for those who want a challenge, why not post some constructive suggestions on what folks can do to make it more challenging.

Here's a few:

1.) If missions are too easy, ask a player to team with you, enter the mission, and ask them to leave. The mission will spawn extra/tougher mobs.

2.) Try hunting higher than you usually do (reds & purples) or in zones where you're low level. IE: if you're 14-15, head over to IP and take on level 20 Family minions/LTs.

3.) Try fighting "with one hand tied behind your back." In other words, take on challenges where you refuse to use certain powers or inspirations, or unslot your attacks (or just don't upgrade them).

But please, let's move away from personal attacks on BOTH sides of the issue, and get back to constructive debate before this thread gets closed or people start getting banned.

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Stop counting the days until you get your beanie hat with battery powered propeller

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I have no idea what that is supposed to mean in this context

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It's a Calvin & Hobbes reference.

The way I see it, this is a good change.

Why?

Simple. Lowering the challenge allows more variety of playstyle.

Look, if you want a really tough challenge, you can always team up with someone and have them quit and you'll get double the mobs. you can go and hunt above your level. You can do TFs with the minimum number of people. There are plenty of ways for you to challenge yourself.

But for those who aren't interested in that challenge, who prefer a different style of play, lowering the OVERALL challenge is better. This way both camps are able to satisfy themselves.

Just because YOU like the higher game difficulty does not mean that everyone ELSE does. I'm sure you can still find plenty of difficulty in other areas of the game. Why not take a trip over to, say, a zone that's much much tougher? IE: if you're level 6, why not go run into Perez park and try to solo hydras? If you're level 14, why not run off to IP and go take on Family guys who are level 20? Remember, this is not YOUR game, it's a game that is, ideally, designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Towards that end, making the game easier, but with options for the player to challenge themselves is the better option for the game as a whole.

Now, all that aside, I DO like the variety of the Outcasts, although if you've forgotten, the Outcasts already WERE a step up from Hellions and Skulls. Think about it. For the Outcasts and Trolls, the MINIONS operated like Skull/Hellion LTs. The LTs operated like skull/hellion bosses, and the bosses were a step above that. Again, think about it.

Skulls:

- minions = bruisers, choppers, etc.
- LTs = gunners, shotgun guys, etc.
- Bosses = bone daddies.

Outcasts:

- minions = some bruisers, but ALSO gunners, buckshots, etc.
- LTs = shockers, scorchers, bricks.
- Bosses = Leads (basically up-gunned versions of the old guys).

In other words, the OLD Outcasts already WERE tougher than the lower level gangs. They were a good middle ground between, say, the Hellions and the Tsoo.

I like the variety of having guys with different powers, but I really think they should only be hitting as hard as the old buckshots and bruisers used to do. This would make them a step up, nicely differentiated, and yet not overly powerful.

That said, even going back to the old Outcasts and Trolls would be just fine by me. I never thought they were broken to begin with.

And hey, if you don't like it, you can always console yourself with the following response that was given to myself and others who suggested that capes not be carrots, but be costume choices:

"The devs have already decided on this! You're beating a dead horse! Accept it and get over it!"

My thoughts on this:

Based on what I've seen in the dev digest from Statesman, I agree with the notion that the +1 mobs in ALL missions are a bug.

I suspect that they recognized the stuns/mezzes/holds were a design flaw, but that they DID originally want to make the game more challenging. The trouble is, stun-happy mobs is not a challenge. It's an annoyance. Yes, there are ways to mitigate that effect, but combine it with +1 bosses and you've got problems.

Combine this ALSO with the fact that BOTH issues impact FAR greater on lower level characters and you've got MAJOR problems.

Think about it. Here's a few issues that plague the low level character:

1.) Very few powers. As a lowbie, you've got usually between 2 and 4 attacks. The more attacks you have, the fewer additional powers you'll be using. Those additional powers might be designed to save you, too. But, you're going up against mobs that have all sorts of attacks and debuffs that you either have no resistances to or have no protection from. Finally, fewer attacks and/or powers in general means fewer tactical options. You're reduced to such "tactics" as the elevator gimmick.

2.) Fewer inspiration slots. Sure, you can stock up on Disciplines. but if you've only got six slots to choose from, and a +1 boss waiting for you, you're gonna need probably half of that insp. tray filled with disciplines to be able to actually AVOID being stunned and such. That means fewer OTHER inspirations like defense, accuracy, rage, etc. All of which means your job is MUCH harder.

3.) Not all ATs even GET resistance/protection powers. Support ATs and especially certain builds can be in major trouble given the additional problems they face. When you're, for example, an emp/rad defender, your powers increase your health and decrease the enemy's defense. That's no real protection. It's basically a time game then -- who runs out of health and endurance first.

Now then, are the missions doable? Sure. They're not IMPOSSIBLE, but they're EXTREMELY frustrating and often NOT possible while the boss is red to you. Hell, orange bosses give me enough of a run for my money.

Much of this depends on who you're fighting and with what build. that in and of itself is a problem. I'm not expecting that all builds can solo or fight at exactly the same levels, but if you get a mission, you ought to be able to solo it. Period. Maybe it takes longer for you than someone else, but it SHOULD be doable. Right now, that's not true for everyone.

It sucks at lower levels, and, from what I hear, at higher levels with support ATs (defs/controllers).

I'd say that the way to go is this:

1.) Get a quick patch or hotfix out to remove the +1 difficulty in missions. Get a patch out to remove some of the added effects that you've said is a bug and fix the low level mobs.

2.) Meanwhile, work on the difficulty slider.

What this will do is create a fix where you've got a balance of happy vs. content as opposed to the current unhappy vs. happy balance with mission difficulty. That can eventually be restored to happy vs. happy with the difficulty slider, but right now, better to get everyone back to at LEAST being content and not frustrated and pissed. In the short term, the people who are happy with the +1 difficulty will be a little disappointed, but at least able to do their missions, while the people who are currently screwed with these changes will be happy. in the long run, once the difficulty slider is out, EVERYONE will be happy.

I've got an idea. Rather than a two-hour long invasion, how about a REAL invasion, you know? Like, one that lasts for a full WEEK so EVERYONE can get some fun out of it.

I think as far as "forced" grouping goes, it all depends on how one perceives the force involved.

WHY are you forced to group, in other words. If you perceive that you're being "forced" to group in order to maintain the same XP/min ratio, then, yeah, the game will be changed so that you can't accumulate XP as quickly on your own as you can in a group (potentially -- we've yet to see even the test version of this).

If by "forced" to group you mean simply that you cannot tackle ANY mob that grants XP without being in a group, then I disagree. Statesman's comment is that the three cons will give you a challenge, not that they're guaranteed to defeat you.

See here's the thing. People like to make blanket statements. "I can't solo." "I'm being forced to group." What they often fail to include is the unspoken additions to those sentences. "I can't solo as well as I want to or as well as that guy over there." "I'm being forced to group in order to maintain the same XP accumulation rate I had when I could kill seven guys as fast as I now kill three."

If you want to call rebalancing the game so that risks actually equal rewards nerfs, then yeah, I guess you're being nerfed. But again, I define nerfs as being made USELESS and POINTLESS in the game. This just makes the game more difficult. Adding a challenge to the game isn't a nerf necessarily.

And again, I still say this can be solved by making high-end minions really reflect that they're powerful beyond simply "I hit harder than the identical guy at lvl 10 did."

And again, I say, part of this problem is semantics, and part of the problem is WHICH minions are you fighting.

If you're fighting Joker goons, yeah, 3 of them seems a little silly. How would ANY joker goon be level 40?

If you're fighting ParaDemons, though, it makes sense that they COULD be level 40.

A solution to this:

1.) Vary the encounters. Sometimes you run across greens, sometimes whites, sometimes yellows, but balanced out to give you the same XP. 5 greens = 3 whites = 1.5 yellows or whatever. The XP is identical. The only difference is the number of guys you run into.

2.) Vary the high-end content in terms of mobs. You should not be fighting a level 40 Nebel Fist. These guys should have a shelf-life of MAXIMUM 20 levels. Past that, it's time for new enemies that make SENSE as having higher powers. This may also mean that we juggle the mobs around so that there are such things as level 5 Button Men and Crey Medics. It will also require creating new and interesting mobs at the high end who aren't just punching you with the same brawl-style attack or billy club that you saw earlier. Has the billy club changed? Am I fighting a Nebel Fist who spends more time in the gym than his level 10 brethren? What's so bloody special about THESE guys? If the white-con minions you face at level 40 are legitimately powerful, if their attacks and tactics are more than just the usual "Slugger/Bruiser/Fist" or "Buckshot" or whoever, if the enemy minions at lvl 40 really APPEAR worthy of being a challenge, I suspect a lot of the problems here will disappear.

On the other hand, if you're bothered merely by the fact that someone named "minion" is an even challenge for you, we can always change the name to "super minion." Likewise, if you're bothered by the fact that now you can't gain XP as fast as you used to be able to, I'd say, life's tough for everyone. Your XP should reflect the risks you took in your fight. The con system is supposed to let you guage that risk. A white con is supposed to be an even risk to you. You are taking on three even risks, and are being rewarded. Now maybe what needs to happen is that the devs need to consider the relative value for those changes and tweak them so that, for example, a white con will give more XP than previously, but less XP than what you'd normally get from fighting six or fifteen or whatever, but these guys are supposed to be even matches for you. If your problem is simply that you won't be able to level as fast, try taking on greater challenges.

That said, the devs SHOULD add newer and DIFFERENT challenges in the late game rather than a Nebel Fist with an up-gunned punch. The challenge should graphically and tacticaclly reflect the level of said challenge, not merely the power of the hits. There's only so far you can take your Bruisers, Fists, and Rockets before you're saying "Ok, why is THIS guy so much more powerful than the same guy I fought at level 3?"

A good point, Goomba. And that'd be a good way to add more varied content. Rather than "Oh, all Crey are, like, level 30 and up", sprinkle them about.

I've got a character who's on the run from Crey Industries (two actually, but only one's developed at all), who's only seen a Crey in an ambush once. And he promptly ran like hell, because said Crey were 35-ish levels higher than he was.

Rather than restrict mobs to "Well, those are all the guys you fight from levels 1-10, and those guys you fight from 10-20", why not have certain organizations that span the whole game? I mean, I can understand how the Hellions don't because, well, they're just street punks, but other organizations could exist throughout the game AND have varied minions throughout the game.

But yeah, I agree that fighting the same Nacht Force, Nebel Underoffiziers, and Obersts at level 40 that I fought at level 10 is going to seem a bit out of place. What makes a level 50 Nacht Force more of a match for me than a level 10 Nacht Force? I can understand how certain ranges would be basically similar (IE: 1-10, 10-20, 20-30, 30-40, 40-50), but how is the player to distinguish between a 50 mob and an otherwise identical 10 mob?

THAT's where things should probably change. And I suspect they will over time. I bet that the devs will eventually include newer mobs at high levels and replace the low-level, up-gunned ones with these new mobs. At least, that's what I'd do.

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Yes Solo has broken the problem down quite clearly for us. There is indeed 2 conflicting points of view here. I am a firm believer that minions should be weak canon fodder, while Statesman's vision apparently lies in option 2...

My problem with option 2, minions being the low rung within an organization, is that NOTHING will ever change in the feel of gameplay. By this I mean, no matter what level I attain, no matter how experienced I become, no matter how many new skills/abilities I have under my belt.... those same three pesky white con minions are going to be the SAME challenge as when I was level 5... And that will make the game feel static!

What does that mean, exactly? Well it means that I will never truly feel like a SUPER hero.... I will never feel like I'm becoming more then a fledgling hero...

I'm all for Lieuts and Bosses scaling at a constant rate so that they provide the same challenge, regardless of level. But damnit I want some cheese factor when it comes to minions... I want to lay the smackdown on 6 or even 8 even con minions at level 45, so that citizens can say "WOW! Now THAT is a hero!".

Unfortunately... if the Dev's go ahead with their "vision" I will lose that sense of achievement. Taking 3 minions on is just not MY idea of what a hero can do... Doing a Spiderman in a dark rain swept alley, while saving MJ from a BUNCH of thugs.. that is what a comic style superhero is supposed to be....

QF

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See, that's why I think varying the encounters will help. Instead of nothing but the same three even level cons, leave the level/con system alone, but vary WHO you're fighting in your missions. Sometimes it's even con guys, sometimes it's higher, sometimes it's considerably lower. This way you can HAVE that experience where finishing the mission requires you to beat up on cannon fodder.


All that said, there is, I think, another underlying issue with the game that CANNOT be avoided, even to make the game more comic book like. This is the fundamental tension between risk and reward. Statesman has a particular view in mind of this, and the players have a different view.

The unspoken part of this discussion lies, I beleive, in the XP values of mobs. For example, you could have the experience of pounding on low level thugs in Atlas Park to your heart's content if you want a true "I'm Batman" experience. Trouble is, pounding on random thugs generates no reward aside from the pleasure you feel at pounding on low-level thugs and saving computerized NPCs from being mugged. When people respond with "Well, just go hunt in Atlas if you want to feel like a bada$$," the unspoken response to that is "No way. I won't get any XP from that."

The devs can't give you XP and they don't want to bring in loot, and even if they let you get enhancement drops from guys this low, people would want more of a reward than the 40 influence they get. Plus, the devs don't want people farming influence to buy SO/DOs and make the UPPER end game even easier.

So, there's no incentive aside from your own superheroic instincts to punish crime that doesn't reward you in the form of XP or drops. This, I think, is something that the players will have to reconcile with themselves and just accept.

It is unreasonable to expect to gain rewarding XP from an easy fight. Plain and simple. If you're getting decent XP, the fight should be challenging. Remember, XP stands for EXPERIENCE points. What type of valuable experience and lessons do you learn from fighting guys that pose no challenge to you? Yet, players want to go up against someone who is supposedly a match for their own skills, defeat them, and continue to be rewarded. And that's just unrealistic. You can't expect game developers to do that, and god forbid they ever do. There HAS to be risk to obtain reward. Taking on a sufficiently tough challenge should yield a high reward, but taking on a guy who poses no real challenge to you (or six of said guys) should not yield a real reward. In other words, you can't expect to go up against six guys who pose no challenge but are NOMINALLY a match for your skills and expect to get good XP.

Now, all that aside, I think that this problem can be resolved by varying the spawns we run into. In missions, I think this can be done by having a randomized range of mobs you can encounter so it isn't always the same three white cons. Figure out what the "value" of three white cons are, and then match that with an adjusted number of green cons. Or with an adjusted number of orange/red cons. You get the idea. Thus, sometimes you'd have a tough fight, sometimes you'd have an easy one. But the end XP would be the same.

As far as street sweeping goes, I think one way to solve this is to remove the zones-within-zones system. Rather than "Oh, you're in the red part of this zone", make it possible to run across a red mob anywhere, just like you could run across a green mob.

This would vary the challenge and make street sweeping a bit more random.

Past that, I think people just need to cozy up with the notion that risk = reward and low risk will always = low reward in this game, as it should. The XP you get from 3 white cons should reflect that you took on three enemies who were roughly a match for your abilities, not three enemies who were a cakewalk.

Guys, this whole thread is much ado about nothing. It's all based on semantics and the connotations of the word "minion."

Here's the way I see it. Within the game structure, "minion" has two different meanings.

1.) Minion means "enemies of low power level. Weak enemies. Easily dispatched enemies."

2.) Minion means "enemies who are low on the totem pole of the particular organization." This definition takes no account of power level, except insofar as that power level is relative to OTHER people in the same organization.


The people who have a problem with what Statesman has said seem to think of this issue more in terms of the FIRST definition. Statesman seems to be thinking about it in terms of the SECOND definition.

Thus, we can all be saying "minions", but we're talking about two different things.

Personally, I view "minion" as a relative term based on organizational structure, irrespective of the power of that minion. A Hellion "minion" means that the Hellion is low on the totem pole of the Hellion organization. He takes his orders from Damned and Fallen. By the same token, a Crey Medic is a "minion" in the Crey organization. But the two have VASTLY different abilities and power ratings.

Some folks here have said "Hey, a minion is a minion is a minion. They're dispatchable goons. Why should a Crey scientist in a lab coat be able to punch me for heavy damage? All they're doing is punching for pete's sake."

Well, consider this. Let's say a Crey Medic runs up to a level 14 toon and punches him. Most likely, this is a one or two shot death, yes? Why? Because the Crey Medic is many many combat levels above the level 14 hero.

But what does a "combat level" mean? Why should ANYONE's single punch (especially some dinky scientist) hit so hard? Well, perhaps the Crey Medic has been specially enhanced with Crey pharmaceuticals that have increased his muscle density to the point where, although his biceps only measure roughly at the same level of a 14 year old computer geek's, they are the functional equivalent of Mike Tyson. Maybe THAT's why Crey are so deadly -- they LOOK harmless, but man, do they pack a punch.

Now, by the time you're even con with the Crey guy, he can hit you, and you shake it off AS IF he was a mere street-punk Hellion punching you. Except that he's NOT. If a street punk still could hurt you, then when that Crey guy hit you, you'd be flatlined.

Now, part of the problem in the game is that the STRUCTURE of encounters is identical regardless of level. You'll still run into the same three white cons as you progress in levels, so, it doesn't really matter to players what their special powers are, or that they've received vampyre blood to give them superhuman abilities, or that they've gotten high tech government weapons to fight you or whatever. PRACTICALLY speaking, they're still the same three white cons you've been fighting all game long.

THAT's the part that gets old to people and THAT's the part that's sucking them out of the comic book experience. It's not that the minions we face in high levels aren't an appropriate challenge or don't have a background that explains why they're more powerful than your average street punk.

The problem is that the encounters throughout the game are pretty much identical FUNCTIONALLY speaking. Every battle you fight ends up being a variation on the "three white cons" battle.

So, to me, it's not so much the problem being that white con minions should be easy to kill or not, it's that by level X I've been killing white con minions THE WHOLE FRIGGIN GAME and I'm bored with it.

So, on the one hand, there's an issue with how people define "minion" as a power level thing, and on the other, there's an issue with the variety of the encounters we face.

Now, here's a suggestion.

Right now, in the game, due to the zone system, we RARELY encounter anything that's seriously higher than us. Aside from ambushes, we don't really see mobs that are all THAT much higher than us.

When I'm fighting Hellions in Atlas Park, I NEVER see Tsoo or Outcast guys go running by. Thus, I NEVER have a feeling of "Holy crap! Those guys are POWERFUL! I don't CARE that it says 'minion' above their heads, they'd eat me alive!" Likewise, when we're high level, we get no reward (aside from a warm fuzzy) and have no encounters with mobs that are considerably weaker than us.

So, the solution to this, to me at least, seems to be that we need more variety in what we encounter in the game. If you pretty much encounter zones of mobs that are all roughly the same level as you for the entirety of the game, you're not going to APPRECIATE the difference in power levels.

THAT, Statesman, is why people are saying a minion is a minion is a minion. They have no appreciation for the difference in power levels BETWEEN the minions they fought early on and the minions they fight now, because ALL they've been doing is fighting gradually scaling minions over time. The powers look different, but functionally, it's the same three guys.

To my way of thinking, more varied encounters would help. More situations where a pack of level 25 Rikti monkeys come running through a supposedly low-level zone like Perez Park would enhance people's appreciation of the difference in power. Whereas, at level 8, when you first see those monkeys, you KNOW they'll tear you apart, by the time you're level 22, you know you can get some buddies together and take 'em on. Thus, you APPRECIATE the difference in power.

Likewise, when you're level 22, and you've been fighting mobs for a while, having some back-loaded missions with greens or even greys at the front for you to clear out quickly, THEN get to a TOUGH mob at the end, that would help you appreciate the difference in power levels.

So, consider this. Let's assume that your base XP rate for a mission is 500XP (random number) for a single player. That 500XP can be made up any way. It could be 500 1XP grey minions, or it could be one 500XP AV. Obviously, it won't be either of those two extremes, but that's the range you have to work with. The trick to keeping the game fresh and fun, therefore, would be in VARYING the way that 500XP mission plays out, but still keeping it within the player's power abilities. Obviously, a 500XP AV would be too much to solo. Likewise, 500 1XP goons would get BORING after a while. But what if you divide things up so that you've got one 100XP Boss at the end, four 50XP LTs, and then 30 6.66XP minions to fight? You'd chew through the minions quickly, be challenged by the LTs, and have a SERIOUS fight on your hands with the boss. Or something like that. Basically, vary things up. On another mission, sure, you'd run into the same 3 white cons, but on a different one, they'd be 6 green cons and a yellow LT. On still another mission, it'd be two orange LTs. Essentially, randomize the placement of mobs on a wider scale, but have XP and challenge caps. IE: you can't go below or above a certain challenge level for mobs, nor can you go below or above a certain XP amount for each mob. But within those ranges, you try to keep things as varied as possible.

You COULD even include certain story arc missions where you have to go up against a bunch of low-level thugs that CAN be easily dispatched and that'd give you no XP for the kill, but at the "mission complete" you give out the same 500XP reward. That's another way to reinforce the super feeling of being a superhero. Sure, the bad guys posed no problem to you, but finding that key piece of evidence is worth a LOT to you in your ultimate goal to stop [insert nefarious plot here.]

Again, I say that this is an easily solved problem.

The con system tells you what you need to know. Something that cons white to you is EVEN LEVEL to you. That means they're a match for your abilities.

Like I said, they may be minions, but they're not easily dispatchable minions. Why? Because they're EVEN LEVEL with you. They've got super powers, etc., just like you.

Now, all that aside, there ARE ways to go and feel powerful. First, you can pound on whatever in Atlas Park and such. That alone is pretty easy to do. Second, you can design encounters (especially in missions) to be scaled differently. The raw difficulty level would be the same, along with the XP, but the way the fight plays out would be different. Imagine a +4 boss, surrounded by +2 LTs, and a horde of -2 or -3 minions for you to chew through. THOSE minions are disposable. THOSE minions you should cut through like a scythe through wheat.

Meanwhile, the LTs and boss should give you a VERY tough fight. Now, to me, that'd feel like a comic book encounter. At the same time, so would fighting three guys who are EVEN LEVEL to me, even if they ARE minions.

Just because something has "minion" in the name doesn't mean it's a random thug or goon.

Now, all that said, I agree with you guys that it WOULD suck to be fighting level 50 even con Hellions who do nothing more than pull out a baseball bat and whack me in the shins with it. THAT would suck and THAT would not feel superpowered.

But like I said, the con system and Statesman's comments are all about a laboratory-like scenario where, all things being equal, three EVEN LEVEL guys are a challenge for you. Not an insurmountable obstacle, but a challenge. That DOESN'T mean that that's what you'll run into in a mission or even on the street all the time.

Short and sweet -- it all depends on how they design encounters. Personally, I'd want some variety. Sometimes I run across three even con minions. sometimes it's an LT and a minion. Other times it's seven green con minions. You get the idea.

Right now, I see relatively little by way of variety within a particular zone of town. If it's a yellow zone, I run into standard 2-3 white-con minions, or one orange-con LT. Sometimes it'll be a white-con LT and two blue minions. Sometimes I'll hit a larger group, but it's usually a variation of the above. More variety in the encounter spawns would be great. I also think it'd help solve the worries that people have about feeling superheroic.

I think this problem is easily solved.

Yes, Statesman said that you should be challenged by three even level minions. Read that again. EVEN LEVEL minions. This isn't Bob the Goon we're talking about. A minion who's even level to a lvl 40 superhero may be faceless in his organization, but still poses a real threat.

Now, if you want to make things interesting, you need to vary the encounter TYPES. Rather than have the standard yellow LT plus 2 white minions encounter (at least that's standard for me in my lvl 14 and below game), or the hordes of green/blue minions and one or two LTs but no bosses, how about this.

2 red/purple bosses, 3-4 yellow LTs, and a horde of green/grey minions. This creates cannon fodder that you have to mow through before you get to the tougher challenges. To me, this would be more along the lines of a comic book.

Big nasty boss is suddenly interrupted in his plans for [insert evil plan here] by group of costumed heroes. Surrounded by his trusted lieutenants and goons, he points at the heroes. "Get them!" A throng of minions, led in battle by the lieutenants attack the heroes and are quickly dispatched. Then the main event begins as the heroes tackle the boss.

So, yeah, you SHOULD be challenged by three goons who are EVEN LEVEL to you, but the encounters you face should reflect the comic book experience where, in the really exciting fights, you encounter a whole bunch of weaker minions, some upper level LTs, and a REALLY tough boss.

But just because the challenge level of a minion is at a certain point doesn't mean that the game must also suddenly lose any comic book flavor. You can still have challenges with easy goons involved to flavor the experience. That's just a question of how you design your encounters.

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As promised, I've been looking into the issues facing Tankers; I thought I'd explain the direction we're going. As we analyed it, Tankers have three very valid concerns (aside from the issues with specific power sets):

1. Without Provoke, they are not a real Tanker. Those people who enjoy the MMP role of "meat shield" have trouble holding aggro properly.
2. The Tanker's defense stats can be matched by a properly slotted Scrapper - but the Tanker can not approach the Scrapper in damage.
3. The Tanker doesn't "feel" like a comic book Tanker should. And frankly, this one really, really bothered me. Because our game is a comic book MMP.

So - here's the solution we're going to try internally. We went through a ton of possible solutions, and we weighed each one against how well they answered the three points above as well as how long it would take to get done.

1. Tankers will get a "provoke" like AOE effect on their melee attacks. The more a Tanker lands his blows, the more and more mobs he'll attract. The bonus here is that it's not exactly like Provoke (it's not ranged) - but it makes a lot of sense. Some huge monstrosity is bashing the heads of a villain group - they're going to get more and more concerned about taking him/her out....

2. As a Tanker lands more and more blows, he'll start doing more and more damage. The longer the fight, the more powerful the Tanker becomes. I can't say that the Tanker will do as much damage as a Scrapper - but it'll certainly be more than he does now. This ability really gets to the core of a comic book Tanker. He's extremely powerful - but at the start of a fight, he holds himself back some. As the battle progresses, he lets loose....I prefer this system to a power because this way it's inherent. It's simply the nature of the Archetype. And it also sets the Tanker apart from the Scrapper's criticals.

Of course, the thought in your minds must be....WHEN?...I'm afraid I don't know. First, we need some code for this. Then we've got to test it thoroughly. Finally, it'll go on the Test Server for awhile to gather data and impressions. This is going to take some time; but I thought you'd like to know at least where we're going, even though we don't know when we'll get there.

Feel free to comment!

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My comments (in order of my own comments, not addressing Statesman's points in some order):

1.) Huzzah!

2.) Well, once again, you've surprised me. Novel design, definitely, and it shows that you guys are thinking outside the box, even in terms of how this game is designed initially. Up until this change, the game is basicaly, hit a mob, do identical damage if you hit (adjusted for level). But, if you hit even cons with a -40, every even con will be a -40 if you hit for all eternity.

Until the tanker change. And I LIKE it. Overall, anyway. Yes, in comics, tankers generally hold back some. The Thing doesn't yell "It's clobberin' time!" until it really IS clobberin' time. Unti then, he'll pound away, but not at full power.

Only thing I'd suggest here is that the damage scale based on the target as well. IE: when the tanker takes on minions, he starts relatively low on his damage scale, and gradually slides up as the battle drags on. If he takes on a boss or an LT, though, his starting point on the scale should be higher, however.

For example. If Colossus is going up against random Hellfire Club guards, he's not going to be hitting at full power at the start. He'll hold back a little. But in a different battle against, say, the Reavers and the White King, his starting punches are going to be hitting a lot harder, due to the higher threat.

That's what I'd suggest here.

3.) Thanks for taking this issue seriously. It IS a big problem, given the nature of the game, and it reaffirms my faith in the dev team to see that you guys GET it that this game is DIFFERENT from every other MMO out there, and that it SHOULD stay different.

I say we re-rename the badges to the "Pie Badge" and the "Bacon Badge."

You will obtain the "pie badge" after having visited every hidden diner location in Paragon City (INCLUDING the ones that are blown up in Boomtown).

You obtain the "bacon badge" by having been hit with enough fire attacks by enemies to qualify as "extra crispy."

Doh! Wait. I just remembered. Bacon and pie are distinctly U.S./Canadian/Western European foods. We'll also have to have a cous cous badge, a Mongolian Barbecue badge, a platanos fritos (fried plantains) badge, a sushi badge, a moo goo gai pan badge, a borscht badge..... Man, Paragon City is gonna need a LOT of national/ethnic restaurants....

Look, if you're REALLY that up in arms about all this, I have some advice from noted comedian and prophet for the ages, George Carlin.

Calm down. Have some dip.

Seriously. I KNOW you all have better things to do with your time than rant about a supposed "political" issue in a video game. I KNOW there are worse, more offensive things happening in the world today than this. If you're offended by this so horribly, you need to develop thicker skin. Life will hand you FAR worse trials and tribulations than this, and if it hasn't, it will.

For my perspective, if this game was set in some other country and I had to stand by that country's flag to get a badge, I would not be offended. If this game were set in Paragon City (or the rough translation thereof) in the Soviet Union, and all the flags were red with yellow stars or hammers and sickles, and chest details and costume patterns were the same, and Statesman was The People's Commisar or Rodina-Man or whatever, I WOULDN'T CARE. It's a game in a particular setting. Find something better to get worked up about. And if you can't, here's a few suggestions for things to tick you off:

For Americans:

1.) American political campaigns, regardless of which side you're on in this election, are increasingly about style over substance. Candidates do not provide detailed plans or explanations for how they will solve the nation's problems. They do not discuss "issues" as much as they discuss non-issues like "character." Many people vote, not for the person who could best do the job, but for the person that appeals to them the most on an emotional level. Think about the negative implications of this problem.

2.) Again, regardles of political affiliation, the electoral college system remains in place. The net effect of this is that some people's votes are "worth more" than other people's votes. If, for example, you live in Ohio (20 electoral votes), the value of your vote is dramatically higher than if you live in Alaska (3 votes). In a country where, ideally at least, everyone's vote is equally valid and valuable, why does this system persist?

3.) Oprah is going into her 19th season, and reality TV continues to be popular. Meanwhile, the media would rather pander to the public with salacious stories, rather than focus on serious, meaningful concerns, because those concerns are "boring" or "not good for ratings." Again, think about the negative implications of this.


For our International Friends:

1.) Global terrorism is on the rise. Regardless of the cause of that rise, terrorists are becoming increasingly aware of the effectiveness of highly public acts of violence or the threat of violence as a means of drawing attention to themselves and their cause.

2.) In civil-war-torn areas of the world, the practice of "ethnic cleansing" still goes on. As bad as you may think conventional war is, try to imagine what it means that someone is willing to at least try to wipe AN ENTIRE PEOPLE out of existence.

3.) Scientists have recently discovered radio waves from space that they think MAY evidence intelligent extra-terrestrial life. Think about this planet's history. If they're anything like we are, we should all be very very frightened. (try to think about what's happened when explorers from far-off lands have come to visit)

Now, put it in perspective, people. You're getting worked up about a doohicky in a video game.

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No offense to the British. I love the English, just not the food


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umm i'm confused, since when does British mean English, there are 3 other countries in Britain you know and us other countries tend to find being called english insulting sorta like calling some 1 from U.S.A canadian or vice versa.

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Well, with a name like LLewellyn, I think we can guess where you're from.

And yes, there's more to Great Britain than England, but perhaps folks were distinguishing between Britain and Great Britain. I think a lot of people equate Britain with England, but Great Britain with the U.K.

Regardless, some of us that there's more to the U.K. than London.

Now! As for the food debate, I can't speak really to much from the U.K. I've had fish & chips there, but that was about it. Yorkshire pudding, I think, too. Those were all pretty tasty.

Don't know much about Welsh food, though. Or all that much about Wales in general, for that matter, aside from the fact that the Welsh REALLY did not get along well with the English for a veeeeery long time.



Now, as for this flag debate in general, I'd personally couldn't care less about the badge/"patriotism" issue (random note: ask random people who identify themselves as "patriots" to discuss specifics of the Constitution or if they've ever read the Federalist Papers, or if they recognize the significance of the Gettysburg Address).

What I'D like to see are more national symbol/flag options for costumes. Gimme a rising sun, a hammer and sickle, a harp, the union jack, the cross of St. Andrew, or your basic tri-color chest logo that you can design however you like (horizontal and vertical tricolors, please). Gimme costume patterns, chest details, etc.

I've already got a hero concept for a whole score of "import" heroes who've come to the States to help battle the Rikti.