SokMunki

Thank you very, very much for this thread, Statesman. This level of feedback is greatly appreciated. I'm sure I'll be harping on things already mentioned -- I haven't read every post in here, just breezed through the red-names -- but I wanted to emphasize one thing:

[ QUOTE ]
As for why we put Bosses in missions at all – in other words, why isn’t everything solo-able – the answer is simple. We want gameplay that encourages the best part of the game: teaming up. Soloing is fine, but a MMP really shines when you meet other people and play alongside them. I’ve made many good virtual friends through other MMP’s that I simply would not have done if I could solo everything all the time. I admit it: I’m anti-social. It’s hard to get me to group up with strangers. But after I do it, I always wonder “why don’t I do this more often…” I might still be anti-social in “real life”, but in MMP’s I’m a social butterfly (I have no doubt that this will appear in sigs for years to come…)

[/ QUOTE ]
There's a large difference in my mind between a mission you discover you can't complete because there's a well-nigh unbeatable foe at the end and "everything solo-able". The former is a surprise and, to me, an unpleasant one. (I'm all for surprises in missions -- I want an indoor mission with ambushes -- but surprises that force me to team are UnFun.) I hope you folks do keep catering to an MM game's strengths and add a lot of exciting content that's only accessable to teams; I want to feel like I'm missing nifty stuff if I stay solo. I don't want to feel like I need to "team or street-sweep."

Oh yeah: I gave Striga Isle a cursory inspection, and the zone is really quite cool. I particularly liked the Council base and the Pantheon Husks rising from the swamp... gave me a bit of a start. My main character's a bit too high to enjoy most of the zone, but I'm looking forward to sending my alts there soon.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the comment about IC/OOC flags, I've been other places that had IC and OOC channels for communication, so you could always tell if someone was speaking ICly or OOCly. I don't know if that's really necessary here.

[/ QUOTE ]
That would probably be overkill, since it's fairly easy to preface OOC comments with OOC. "OOC: Drat. The cat just yarked on my monitor. BRB." That presumes that everything not prefaced like that is an IC comment, of course, which is where the RP flag might come into play. It shows everyone what context your statements come from. It also assumes that everyone knows to type OOC before OOC comments: not a safe assumption.

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe stick it in your description that you're always IC, I dunno. I really don't think this is that big an issue. I'm surprised so many people are responding.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's probably not a big issue, but it's an interesting one, dealing with the murky area between RP and OOC. Looking at your original post, I can see things working out like so if everyone was operating from the same RP context:

Him: "After you, sweetie."
You: "I'm not your sweetie, knock it off."
Him: "OOC: Just roleplaying here."
You: "OOC: So am I."

There's still the friction, but at least both parties know how to handle the friction: in-character. Given that many (most?) people playing the game don't RP, dealing with situations where someone's character is addressing a player can be... interesting.

The disconnect between a female character and a male player is another oddity here. (WARNING! RAMBLING ANECDOTE!) I once played a perky, Pollyannaish female character on a MUSH, and I found that the other (male?) players OOCly would greet me with hugs and kisses rather than the (typical) waves. It was all very friendly... but the idea that such intimacy was OK because "it's a woman" was disconcerting. I've made it a point to be more respectful of female-character-players since then.

[ QUOTE ]
You say he was acting OOCly. He says he was roleplaying. Until we can read his mind, I am willing to give him benefit of the doubt.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm possibly hijacking this thread -- sorry -- but this makes me wonder if a visible RP/RPer flag is a good idea. Let's presume I join a team with some character named Og. I've got a fairly normal looking character, but Og takes a gander at me and says "Wow, you look like an idiot." Is that an IC comment or not? Should I react ICly or not? What if I don't roleplay at all -- how do I handle this?

An RP flag would let people know who's (probably) speaking and reacting in-character and who isn't. It might help alleviate situations such as this. If I'm roleplaying I'll merrily react to IC jerks ICly, but there's a lot of times when the situation isn't clear.

Anyhow, yes, someone who's roleplaying a jerk should still have their character treated like a jerk. "Ah, yes, the Chauvanist Pig. I joined him for a mission against the Sky Raiders. For about thirty seconds. I told one Porter, 'Do everyone a favor and aim lower, all right?' then found some Tsoo to occupy my fists..."

[ QUOTE ]
To some extent I disagree with SweetThang (I mean, come on. Let's not all just agree! That's so weak!)

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, in that spirit...

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, I definitely apply the assumption that people are basically interested in RP, since this is an MMORPG.

[/ QUOTE ]
It isn't, at least from what I can tell. The box bills CoH as a Massively Multiplayer Online Game. Obviously the developers expect and condone roleplaying, hence this forum... but I don't think CoH is defined as an RPG by the creators.

Where's my nitpicker badge?

Not sure about "going too far," but there's certainly bad roleplaying, and it sounds like you got some.

First, were you warned that the comments were in-character? I know that I'd personally have just quit after the third time someone cursed me for "making a mistake" unless I was absolutely sure that it was strictly in-character.

As an aside, people who roleplay jerks should get all the negative flack in-character that jerks normally get. In other words, I might've quit the team "in character" anyhow, because my Scrapper's persona wouldn't put up with someone acting like he's Ares incarnated on a really, really bad day.

Next -- and this is elitist of me, I admit, shoot me -- it sounded like you joined the Task Force of "Team Stereotype." Let me guess: the blaster was a military, Nick Fury type? A gloomy Dark/Dark? A Berserking Axe tanker? Who would've thunk it?

Presuming you're not into RPing, I'd suggest simply stating: "My character is mute. Any comments are all out-of-character."

This sounds very, very cool. I'm looking forward to the Cowbell Pie System.

I have nothing to add to the discussion except to demand that, from here on out, people must make bar charts using smileys.

I can't really defend the current Exemplar system because I haven't used it THAT much, but let me give an example:

My fiance had a mission to kill X amount of Vahz. I play a level 21 Scrapper (on the server with her toon, anyhow) and I don't think there's any Vahz around that are my level. I also had a fair amount of debt (/e shakefist at Tsoo), so I became her toon's Exemplar so we could both get a benefit (her a trusted team-mate and XP for the arrests, me a debt-reduction) and we went to town. I didn't notice the "running" bug, but I've heard about it before so add me to the "fix this" list.

From a "bang for the buck" standpoint, you may be right: we might've been better off street-sweeping with her as my sidekick. We like doing missions, though.

I think the main reason for Exemplaring is to play with friends who are lower level than you, specifically so you can help out with their missions. The "get rid of debt" is an incentive.

I'm not saying that Exemplaring can't be made more appealing -- maybe an increase in Influence would help -- but I suspect the system was designed more for social reasons than in-game gain.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One of the papers that sheds some great light on MMOs is actually a paper about MUDs - Click Link Here!

Its kind of a gamer personality type – most people have a primary types, but will do other types of gaming to achieve the goals of their primary type.

Killers want to impose themselves on others.
CoH examples –
Killers – Griefers/KSers

A good MMO tries to make all types of play available in their games.

A good player realizes that games are different things to different people. {edited for relevance}

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you cater to Killers, since their fun depends on ruining the fun of all the other types of player? How does that make a "good MMO"? That is like the legal system catering to rapists because 'that's how they have fun'. I don't see it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this was oversimplified. From what I'm gathering from the paper, the "Killer" type really, really likes PvP. In extreme cases the "Killer" type becomes a griefer because they get to beat up "someone else," fairly or not.

CoH as it stands doesn't have a PvP outlet, therefore the Killer type is either frustrated, consoles themselves with a better PC than someone else, or (in extreme cases) does griefing.

That's my take on the situation, anyhow -- I certainly can't speak for CuppaJo.

[ QUOTE ]
she explained what kind of gamers play mmos - and guess who she left out. or guess who in general, gets left out.

challengers. those who like a challenge. those who play for the fun of the battle. the challenge.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd read the link she provided before passing judgement. I personally skimmed it, but from what I saw "Achievers" fall under the "challenge" rubric. The idea that they're winning a tough battle gives them a sense of satisfaction.

A very well-thought post. Some sporadic comments:

[ QUOTE ]
This commitment though, to compete at that level required massive amounts of time invested as well as a lot of political involvement. But, alas, I was in love with becoming more powerful as a player. Saddly, CoH has no equipment to strive for. It could be argued that the super powered enhancements that you get from Hamidon would be “Striveable” worthy, but they just don’t peak my interest.

[/ QUOTE ]
When designing an MMORPG I think you need to keep two questions in mind (not that I have any experience in designing such, but...) One, is the proposed activity fun? Two, is it in genre? Fun should trump genre all the time, but I think it's important to keep genre in mind when creating the fun.

An example is (was?) SWG's starting gameplay for combat characters of "go hunt critters for currency." This struck me as solid MMORPG thinking but not really Star Wars thinking. "Go hunt thugs for currency" seems more in line with Star Wars... and comic books, so CoH did this well. ("currency" being Influence, e.g., fame, renown, what-have-you, since money for heroes tends to be a sideline issue -- Peter Parker's money woes, Bruce Wayne's billions, etc.)

That's the problem I have with loot: it doesn't really fit in with the superhero genre, specifically the four-color, Jack Kirby style comics that seems to form the baseline of CoH. Cyclops doesn't strip the guard of his flack vest and stun baton and hang onto the equipment for several issues afterwards, even though it might make "real world" sense. Instead you get Enhancements, which (to me) just represents a way of learning to use your powers better. I'm not sad about this design decision at all; I recognize that it isn't to everyone's taste, though (including yours).

[ QUOTE ]
The third reason to getting to level 50 was for Player Hunting/Player Killing etc. While the EQ PK system was flawed, it evolved over time making higher levels worth while. Dark Age of Camelot was centered on the combat aspect, the reason TO get 50 was simply to eliminate the other guy. {snip}

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you elaborate on this? I'm not a DAoC veteran (I only played it for a little while). Could you only do PvP (barring duels) at level 50? Was it a matter of being "the top of the heap", i.e., you were able to beat up lower level PCs? PvP *is* coming to CoH, but if that's a main draw for you I certainly don't advocate being bored waiting for it.

[ QUOTE ]
The final reason to reach the maximum level was just because it’s fun to get to the end level. When I play a MMORPG, leveling should just be something that happens while I’m doing other things. I don’t think any game has quite nipped that yet though...

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree completely about the levelling bit. As other people have pointed out on these forums -- NinjaPirate has put things pretty well in other threads -- part of the problem is the way MMORPGs handle reward systems. It's easy to lose sight of just playing when you're hungering after the next power, especially when playing the game gets repetitive. When you fixate on the next thing (levels here) that feeling of the "grind" becomes magnified. I'm not saying "you're playing the game wrong" by any means. Tetris was a grind to me, and we all know how unpopular *that* was.

[ QUOTE ]
When I log into CoH it’s *work*: boring, tedious work. Why does it take so long to level in City of Heroes, I believe the answer is very obvious, it’s because City of Heroes is a business, and businesses exist to make profit.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree that it's a business decision to keep progression slow so that people will keep playing. Not only so that the company keeps getting your monthly payments, but so that there's enough people here to keep the "community" aspect alive. Not very massive if people play for two months, max out, get bored, and move on. The hope of the developers, I expect, is so that the gameplay itself is interesting and varied enough to keep people's interest. Your perception is that it takes a long time to level in CoH; I don't find that an issue (barring certain spots in the game). Perhaps I should add "yet": level 50 looks very, very far away right now for me. Viva la difference.

I've babbled enough.

[ QUOTE ]
Good job Green Jackel!
I wish that you were on champion!
How does everyone feel about the situation now?

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel pretty good about the situation, Adlerian. How do you feel about Statesman's reply? I'm curious, since you've stated in this thread that you'd like to know what the developers think.

First, Statesman, thanks for responding to this thread, although I'm afraid people (including myself) are going to use that response as their own personal inkblot. Rorschaching away:

I think this addresses the deeper issue, which is discouraging AFK-XP-earning (and other forms of more-rapid-than-intended levelling) by making it so that the majority of players don't want to do this.

Playing a game should never be about work, which is why I find some of the analogies and terms in this thread interesting.

I think the analogy of the "sitting in traffic while someone else cuts in" is actually fitting, in that it reflects a mindset that playing the game at lower levels is somehow like sitting in traffic. If you feel that way (and, by extension, feel somehow there's a need for you to pass using the shoulder and cut in further down the road), then the problem is the game, or at least your appreciation of the game. Maybe the game has hit a dull patch for you, or maybe you just don't (won't?) appreciate what your current place in the game has to offer.

For my fiance, it was getting Flight. She wanted it because it fit her character (she recreated an old Champions character here) and because she was tired of sprinting to missions. That part of the game had become Not Fun for her. So I parked her character while she was at work (not in the train station, I might add), grouped with her, and went to pound on some people until she made it from level 12 to level 14. She's happy, I'm happy, and I don't think it hurt anyone else's enjoyment of the game.

Statesman didn't state that powerlevellers were throwing off the level-distribution curve or the like. I hope that means that the activity isn't causing the developers' focus to get skewed. I *can* see that as a potential detrimental side-effect (as other people have mentioned), but it all depends on how many people are doing it, how rapidly they're advancing, and how well the developers are able to account for that when trying to figure out the target group for updates. I don't have enough knowledge about the situation either way.

Time to relax, I think.

I think one problem here, MadSqueegee, is that we've got a lot of different questions floating about and no one's sure which one we're debating. For instance, there's the topic: "Is PLing a Form of Cheating?" To me that's a very conceptual question that goes to the design of MMOGs and how people play them -- particularly games where the player isn't competing against anyone but a game engine. In my mind, that's a matter of competing against yourself. This leads to the question, "If there's no direct competition, how are PLed characters hurting the game/other players?" Already bandied back and forth, not going there again.

"Is powerlevelling (specifically, getting XP while actually doing nothing and taking no risks) acceptable in City of Heroes?" is a different question. Stateman has already answered that (it is not acceptable). There we go, case closed.

"Why do people powerlevel anyhow?" Is yet another question, one I don't think is easily dismissed by cries of "cheater! cheater!" Yeah, of course there's always going to be people who only want to be ub3r and will do anything to get there for... I don't know, some sense of validation, I guess. For others, though, the points where people powerlevelling *might* point out spots in the game where there are problems -- thin content, repetitive gameplay, whatever -- and tweaking those spots might help diminish the powerlevelling "problem."

[ QUOTE ]
Statesman stating in response to someone else's PM is in reference to how the game gets easier in the later levels(32+) and that they are working on upping mob hit points and making them harder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks gullsfan and vicwrx for the clarification. I was trying to read his response as an answer to the question "why does powerlevelling happen", or perhaps "why is powerlevelling is not 'an intended or acceptable' form of gameplay." He's addressing how people can do it and what they're doing to fix it. Gotcha. (My highest level character is only level 27, so I haven't experienced the game-play at the levels you're talking about.)

[ QUOTE ]
Okay, I PMed Statesman directly.

"Is standing in a safe zone (like next to a police drone) while higher level teammates level you up considered an intended or acceptable form of behaviour on the part of players?"

His reply:

[ QUOTE ]
Originally posted by Statesman:

No - it's a side consequence of the game being too easy at certain levels. I'm looking into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Fie upon thee, NinjaPirate, and your loathed common sense! Glad to hear him comment.

I also find the reasoning curious and perhaps a bit flawed -- I hope he elaborates at some point. In my DIRECT experience, powerlevelling happens because:

1) Someone makes an alt and wants to play with their regular group on an even par, partially to have the same power spread, but mostly because of mission level equality. Reverse side-kicking and mission level selection should help with this.

2) Movement powers. I PLed one of my fiance's characters from 12 to 14 so she could get flight. We found the long jogs during levels 1-13 to be boring, plus the wait the level 14+ has for the person who is 13 or less at mission doors (one of the reasons I expect Recall Friend is so incredibly popular).

I don't think "too easy" enters into the equasion. "Not interesting enough", maybe, but that's a different problem.

I'll see if he'll elaborate.

[ QUOTE ]
In a sense, it is a game community, as we are all playing it. If you are working on a job and your coworkers were stealing money it may not affect your ability to do your job or even your paycheck, but it would probably make you feel uncomfortable.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your analogy is a bit flawed, in that there's no top-down recognition (salary, positon, etc.) here for all your hard work. I'm not getting paid to do this -- exactly the opposite. I'm paying to be entertained, and my playing the game doesn't affect the game's performance at all (maybe; more on this in a moment). We're not in competition with each other here for the most 'ub3r' character. We're here to have fun. If someone's idea of fun is to have some poor schlub get them to level 30 before they actually activate a power, then fine. I personally don't get it myself; it's rather like buying a movie ticket then coming in to watch the last 10 minutes of the film. Your loss, not mine.

The problems I see with Power-levelling (and hardcore gaming, something I do frequently) is if the developers cater to those that advance far more rapidly than the norm. Let's say that the developers say, "Whoa, there's X percent of our players going from level 1 to level 50 in three days -- better fixate on high-end content!" then there'd be a problem. I don't think that's happening, but I have no evidence either way.

Another potential problem with power-levelling are the folks who are trying to make characters simply to pwn during PvP. From the limited amount I've read about how they're implementing PvP I doubt this is going to be a problem as well; I think they're setting it up so that characters will have a fairly even field. We'll see.