Snow Globe

You also failed to mention any of the status protections they get, like the Mag 1,000 confuse protection that Siege and Nightstar have.

They aren't contributing enough of a buff to outweigh their lack of attack strength, lack of accuracy, lack of Lore pets, lack of Destiny buffs, Judgement attacks, Interface debuffs, or even the slight edge that the Alpha slot grants. Taken as a whole, a fresh level 50 isn't contributing the same amount that a 50+3 is. I don't know how to demonstrate this fact any clearer.

The trial community on Triumph is such that I am not competing with another group forming a trial. Rarely there is enough interest to run more than one trial at a time. So there are 2-5 trials in a row. I'm not taking anyone from another league. On a larger server like Virtue what you are describing is valid, but not in my experience. Frankly, I would LOVE to have other people form trials. I will point out though that my trials tend to be successful more often than some other players attempting to lead.

The majority of the player base on Triumph isn't interested in leading trials. They want someone else to form them. I do so. I know almost all of the trial leaders. You know what takes away opportunity for players to participate in trials more than stringent requirements? It is having -all- (and I mean every one) of the trial leaders on a single league. That is what frequently happens on Triumph.

Underground... Yes, it gives both types of iXP, but it is so rarely run on Triumph (once every couple months, if that). Keyes and TPN are both better rewarding for the time. BAFs are more rewarding for time than the Underground is.

MoM... Only gives one type of iXP, is rarely run on Triumph, and it doesn't give a lot of iXP OR a great Reward Table.

DD... Is so short, and doesn't have great incarnate XP that it simply doesn't compare to the other trials.

I'm not robbing people out of Incarnate progress. Even more so with the new Incarnate Arcs that give players even MORE options for Incarnate progress.

Nope, I don't have to explain myself to you. Like I said, if I'm forming a league, I get to set the rules. If the trial is positioned as a level 54+3 trial, then that is what my minimum standards will generally be.

As far as the level shifts, if the trials were intended for +0s, they'd be level 54+0s. Like I said, what I ask people to bring is my choice, if people don't want to bring that, we go our separate ways. I'm not blocking them from anything, they are more than welcome to lead what they want.

To put it bluntly, I am inclusive... to a point. However, I'm NOT going to invite someone that I think is leeching to a trial that I run, end of story. That you don't like it is YOUR problem, not mine. I'm NOT going to invite a player that I don't think is qualified to a trial that I'm leading. If that isn't good enough for you, TOO BAD.

You keep using the term, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

If not enough Clarions and Barriers are present in Underground, yes, the trial will fail.

You brought it up, it is a fair point of contention. You claim that everyone should be included, I'm saying that not everyone can do what you are saying.

I'm not infringing on anyone's playstyle. Everyone has the same opportunity as I do: Form a league, join a league forming, or do something else. By you telling me how to lead a trial means that you think that I have no say in how I play the game.

I'm not a slave to everyone that wishes to be on a trial for whatever reason they feel justified to take whatever they want to. For me to do what you say would be turning my playtime into unpaid work for whatever anyone wants me to do. Quite frankly, I'm insulted that you can't get the point that I don't owe anyone a spot on a trial I form.

You know what? For most players I play with, that isn't an issue. I have 12-13 level 50s on Triumph and if I've ran a trial on one character, I can always bring another. Same goes with every other trial leader that I know on Triumph. By the way, only ONE of my level 50s on Triumph is less than a +3, and only because that character got to 50 this last weekend. Even so it is +2 already (a couple TPNs, BAFs, Lambdas). It doesn't take a lot of effort to get level shifts.

I'm not interfering with other player's play. However I am limiting how much of their demands on my time affects me.

If you think that I'm elitist because I don't want other people wasting my time by bringing characters that are ineffective (like a level 50 scrapper with Single Origins) to a DD trial, then have at it. Multiply that by 5-6 players on a 16 player max league and you'll understand where I'm coming from. I don't want to deal with that on a harder trial, and I shouldn't have to.

Because I stipulate what I'm looking for in a character that joins a trial that I lead, all of a sudden I'm being vilified and I don't like it one bit.

Considering that I'm the one that usually is bringing one of the Empaths to MoM, no. I'm bringing a +3. I don't ask anyone to do something I'm not willing to apply to myself as well, and that includes joining trials.

About the only reason for exceptions on one of the harder trials is that I know the player. That usually means that I've teamed with that player for years. Even then I'm usually helping the player get their level shifts.

Because I use the strategy that ignores the outside usually. I minimize the possible areas of failure to the point where I don't need the buffer of the level shifts. Same goes for Keyes (even before the changes to that trial).

Agreed.

I've yet to fail a TPN (outside of the crash bug, which I don't count). MoM trials? Most of them fail at the Penelope phase, but I've seen fails on every single stage of that trial.

1. Nightmare stage? Failed due to one of the two Rularuu AVs.
2. Penelope phase? Constant auto-hit Psi damage and awake inspirations being completely ineffective during the phase.
3. Aurora Phase? Team wipes, not enough damage to Mother, not enough healing of the portals.
4. Well phase? Players not following instructions and not enough DPS.
5. Final phase? Not enough DPS. <-This in particular is why I want +2 or +3s only on this trial, even if I know the players.

Basically, I've had a far different experience with both TPN & MoM than you have.

Actually, that isn't entirely true. Some do. (Mostly links that aren't on the forums.)

You can use the search function with the title/author to find the posts in question.

My point is that unshifted characters are less effective than shifted characters in the harder trials. Simply put, unshifted characters aren't sharing equally in participation.

Actually it is entirely relevant. I don't exclusively lead the harder trials. I'm more than willing to help players get the level shifts so that they can join the harder trials. I draw the line at taking them to a trial that is above their ability to contribute.

If I were only doing Undergounds, MoMs, and DD trials, then you'd have a basis for complaint. However, I'm actively leading the lower difficulty trials to help players get those level shifts. At the same time I'm learning what those players are capable of. If they show themselves to be a good player, I'm more likely to invite them to a higher difficulty trial with relaxed conditions.

If players want a level shifted character to be able to play on one of my leagues that is attempting a more difficult trials, they can join any of my open leagues to get those level shifts. Lately I've been running TPN and Keyes more than BAF and Lambda. TPN in particular gives a lot of rewards to build those level shifts.

I don't think it is unreasonable to expect players to put forth some effort if they want to join a harder trial. If they can't put forth the requirements I ask for, then they can join a group that has a lower standard than I do.

Actually, no I don't. I don't have to justify my leadership style to you any more than you have to justify how you play your characters. Or are you trying to tell me how to play the game? When you are willing to pay for my VIP status, that is the point you can tell me how to use my play time. Actually, come to think about it, at that point it would stop being my play time.

And level shifts provide a buffer against stubborn, ignorant, and otherwise ill-prepared players. It is called a margin of error. I try to build leagues with that in mind. Will it always succeed? No. Can it turn an otherwise failing trial around? Yes. You seem to have a much larger tolerance of failure than I do. Good for you.

Just because one person can do something doesn't mean that everyone can. I use the easier trials to observe how people play. If they seem capable of not being an idiot, they are more likely to be asked to a higher difficulty trial. The reverse is also true. I just rather not deal with trying to determine that during a higher difficulty trial.

Quite frankly, I could care less about the performances of your groups. When I have some of my rarely held unannounced trials, I build teams based on players, not level shifts. Those trials have the same effect: I take players that would otherwise join an open trial and help out. So I have to choose whether I include people that I normally wouldn't take or set minimum standards for higher trials. Most of the time, I choose to open trials to everyone. On Underground, MoM, and DD that means I have a higher standard for joining.

All the trials I've been talking about in this thread are open trials where I don't pre-screen everyone joining except for level shifts if the trial is one of the three (of seven) trials where I deem it is too difficult for the average player. That is my prerogative as a trial leader. Nothing you have said changes the fact that it is my prerogative as a trial leader. I have every right to form my leagues as I see fit. Just like you have the right to lead trials like you see fit.

Level shifts provide a margin of error that can aid success. Too small a margin and you fail more.

No, you said that trials pulling +3s and you being left with less level shifted characters was a problem:
You didn't once mention the 20 hour timer. You said the higher level trials taking away level-shifted characters from lower ones.

And things like Twilight Grasp or any other buff that requires accuracy is fully dependent on level shift & accuracy.

I've seen the exact opposite.

And this is why I host a mix of trials. Note the "s" at the end of "trial". Yes, I get some turnover, but I still have enough for multiple trials (sometimes 4-6 of them in a night).

I've never succeeded a MoM trial with 50s on the league. Why? Because it is never just one or even a few 50+0s, it is 6-8 of them. Most of them don't even bother to do any research on a trial or want to listen to those that have. By requiring a certain level I'm warning them that this is more difficult than they are used to.

I've seen players not interested in getting additional level shifts with the earlier trials as they only want to do each "once". There is no way that I'm taking a player like that on a newer, more difficult trial.

I also try to make sure not to compete with other trials forming, as I know I can pull people from other groups.

=============

At the end of the day, the group to blame for all this is the developers. They didn't need to set the trials at +1, +2, or +3. They didn't need to set the DD trial for +3, over the protest of players in the beta, but they did. They could have removed the level shifts form the DD trial, left it as a part of the final arc in DA, and the players would have been happy. Instead they stuck to their guns and made this a level 54+3 event.

They needed to make 6-7 level 54 Incarnate Trials, then when we get more shifts increase the level of the trials.

=============

At the end of the day:
If you want to challenge yourself with less than the recommended levels, then you are free to do so on your time, but not mine.

I'll point out that Lambda isn't Underground, MoM, or DD. I don't have any requirements for players joining my Lambdas, BAFs, Keyes, or TPNs.

Also you are fighting level 54 AV in Lambda. If you want to fight a +4 in DD you need to bring a level 50+3 to it. The practical cap thanks to the purple patch is +4, any higher you might as well do something else.

Compromise on your own time. Lately, if I'm leading it is because no one else is willing to come forth as a trial leader. At that point, I'm telling people what my terms for leading are. That is compromise enough as far as I'm concerned.

Not one of these three trials are "starter" trials. If you count Lore pets, it would take approximately 6-8 level 50+0s to match a single level 50+3 on a DD. That is dead weight. If you want to bring them along on your trials, you're more than welcome to. Basically a level 50+0 might as well be door sitting for all they will accomplish.

I'll repeat myself: I'll form and let anyone level 50+0, 50+1, 50+2, or 50+3 to any BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN that I lead. I lead a lot of trials. That I have restrictions on Underground, MoM, and DD is my prerogative as a leader. If you don't like that, tough. Go form your own trial or join another that might be running.

Edit:
Let me put it another way... I didn't invite level 40s to do level 50 content with me without a mentor before Super Side Kicking. I'm sure as heck not going to do the equivalent with the Incarnate Content.

Or as someone else once put it:

They are dead weight, and I'm not going to compensate for them. End of story.

I've explained my reasoning, I completely disagree with you, and if you want to run trials like you say, go for it. You are completely free to lead your own trials, in any manner you wish.

My ground rules are there to ensure success, and if you don't like it, you have other options. I don't ask for much, and I'm not being unreasonable for asking for level shifts on harder trials. If someone wants to join they know what I want for people to join me.

Attitude still not helpful for a civilized discussion.

Where does the line get drawn though? Do I tell Player A that they can bring a +0 while telling Player Y they have to bring a +3? With my leagues, everyone is treated pretty much equally, and everyone knows it.

With a random group that doesn't have much debuff? With people that I don't know how capable they are? I don't take -5, -6, or -7 players to a team, end of story. I don't care how good they are, vs +5 or greater they might as well not be there. A level shifted toon using an inspiration would be more effective than a +0 on the league.

From Paragonwiki ( http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Archvillain ):
Now, take the MoM trial with the level 54+2 AVs...

A level 50+0 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+2 AV would be (-61% * 0.15 = -9.15% * (1-0.87)) equaling -1.19%. At 1% they aren't effective.

A level 50+1 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+2 AV would be (-61% * 0.30 = -18.30% * (1-0.87)) equaling -2.38%. At 2% they aren't effective.

A level 50+2 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+2 AV would be (-61% * 0.48 = -29.28% * (1-0.87)) equaling -3.81%. At this point they are barely effective.

Going to the DD Trial with the level 54+3 AVs:
A level 50+0 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+3 AV would be (-61% * 0.08 = -4.88% * (1-0.87)) equaling -0.63%. At less than 1% they aren't effective at all.

A level 50+1 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+3 AV would be (-61% * 0.15 = -9.15% * (1-0.87)) equaling -1.19%. At 1% they aren't effective.

A level 50+2 with Radiation Infection vs a level 54+3 AV would be (-61% * 0.30 = -18.30% * (1-0.87)) equaling -2.38%. At 2% they aren't effective.

That is why the purple patch means (again from Paragonwiki):
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Purple_Patch

Anyone bringing a +0 to a DD trial is not contributing at all.

There are only 2 things that I can think of that would cause a DD trial to fail: People not listening to instructions, or not bringing characters with enough level shifts. By the way, this is why the trial was removed from needing to be done in the last DA arc. This is a +3 trial and if you don't bring the recommended level shifts you are responsible for failing it.

When only 4/16 have +3, you are not likely to have "half the league's worth of rebirths and barriers". You would be lucky to have a couple Rebirths, Clarions, Barriers, or Incandescence.

Nice condescending attitude you've got there.

By the way, I practice what I'm saying. I don't bring unshifted characters to UG*, MoM, or DD.


* I did a few months ago, but never again. However I came prepared with 8 Liberates and a bunch of Escapes for the final battle. I was also playing a support toon (Bots/Pain MM) that never entered the main battle areas. In other words, I played smart. I don't expect everyone else to do so, and it only takes a few to fail the UG, MoM, or DD. The last DD Trial I was on that failed due to over half the league being under +2 (and most of those were +0) was failed at the Sentinel of Mot. The Trial before that a few toons that didn't have full level shifts died 20 times in the final battle.

Arcana, the problem was that the game gave leadership to someone else after we entered the trial. There was another player stuck to themselves for about 5 minutes while we were trying to deal with the unresponsive player that got the league star.

The developers seriously <censored> things up with the LFG Queue for this. The league star should NOT be going to some random person when the trial loads.

In my experience all trials, even BAFs and Lambda, have a higher failure rate after a Double XP Weekend.

I've seen a 50% fail rate on Underground trials and a 55% failure rate on MoM trials. Nearly all of those failures are due to players not bringing fully qualified toons. That is why, over the last half year that my patience with players wasting my time bringing unqualified characters to a trial has evaporated. I'm not here to PL large groups through the Incarnate System. In a nutshell, that is what you are asking for: Someone to PL your character from +0 to +3. My response: Find someone else.

If you don't want to bring a character suited to the challenge, then join someone else or lead your own. Neither option is my concern.

Which you are free to do so. You are also free to lead a trial in any manner you choose so. I could care less. However, when I'm leading, those are my rules. If you don't like that, don't join UG, MoM, or DD trials where I'm leading. I don't think it is much to ask that players bring a character that is able to perform in an adequate manner.

The veteran players know me. They know how I lead trials. They also know that I do give a little leeway depending on the circumstances. They also know that I'm pretty good at leading trials to winning, even with odd combinations of players.

For people I don't know well... Those rules are set in stone. If I get too many novices or have enough people with level shifts, I don't do UGT, MoM, or DD. Instead I lead a BAF, Lambda, Keyes, or TPN.

Good for you. You seem to have a core group that you can fill/start a trial with. Have at it.

Good for you. I frankly don't care. I do care that I'm bringing a +3 toon for UG, MoM, and DD and I don't want to have to lead, do my share of the required effort to win, and to make up for half the team not being properly equipped for the trial. That isn't my idea of fun, and if you don't like it, you are free to start a trial of your own.

Actually, no. The trials do scale up with the number of players in a league. Additionally, level 50s that get killed because they can't handle the situation incur a trial-wide penalty for MoM and DD. That they can die easier vs +6 and +7 foes goes without saying.

When 50% of players don't come with a level shift, I know there will be problems with the trial. I'm not guessing, I KNOW.

I also know that I'm one of a handful of players willing to actually lead a trial. While some don't have the same restrictions I do, they tend to form trials by private tells/channels. It is just as restrictive, but in a different manner. Nearly everyone is given the opportunity to join my trials, I just have requirements that I want to see met so that I can have what I consider a reasonable chance of success.

I've been paying attention. Sometimes, despite constantly attacking, the Assassin Strike Circle goes out. I'm using a Energy Aura/SR build currently (level 50).

I'm at the point where it is a waste of my time forming a trial when players bring sub-standard toons to the league. The time commitment to form a trial on a smaller server is much larger than a larger server, even with taking random people for the "easier" trials. If you want to challenge yourself and experience a higher failure rate, go ahead. I've tried that and I'm done with it.

I ask for +3 on Underground to ensure enough Destiny and Lore powers to make it through the two hardest fights: The SRWW/LIWW combo and the blanket confuse section in the final fight.

I ask for +3 on the MoM trial because I've seen too many failures with any group that has more than 25% of the characters without even a single level shift, and most of the times people want to bring 50%-70% +0s.

I ask for +3 on DD because the trial is positioned as a 54+3 trial by the developers, and people have tried with less (including me) meeting with failure to even get past the Sentinel of Mot (to say nothing of the ambush or final phases).

You want to waste your time, go right ahead. Don't expect others to join you.

Frankly, I think that this idea has no place in this game.

Given my experiences, it isn't. Given my experiences and the fact that I pretty much have to PUG each trial I lead, I think I'm being entirely reasonable as to league composition.

A league that isn't level shifted enough simply cannot recover from mistakes that will happen with most PUGs.

They don't have the damage capability, the needed survival rate (both MoM and DD have nasty death penalties).

The Lichen War Walker is of lesser concern (but still a concern)

MoM is full of level 54+2 AVs, bringing a level 50+0 toon is begging for failure. They simply aren't effective enough.

DD is full of level 54+2 and 54+3 foes, a level 50+0 or 50+1 toon isn't effective enough.

Oh, and Underground? People don't bring enough confuse protection, and that requires +2 for the most part.

Go to Ouroborus. Do Max's final mission there.

Not at all. As a premium or free player you should be initiating the ticket from the website, not from in the game. Everyone has been informed of this, and you have been directly reminded of this from the GMs.

You might think it is stupid, but you are the one knowingly trying to repeatedly use the in-game system when you know you are not entitled to use the in-game system.

While I'll agree that the in-game bug/petition should check your account status before continuing, that doesn't change that you are trying to access the system from a way that is known not to work. You are deliberately trying to access the bug/petition system in-game as a non-subscriber. At which point the fault is yours, not the system, not the GMs.

From the contest rules page:
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/c...conditions.php