Sentry4
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Quote:That's....really interesting. I hadn't thought of that.Originally Posted by William_Valence
Possible solution:
Calculate the recharge, to be used in determining the cycle time, a bit differently. Basically, take the slotted recharge plus the global recharge (Modified by DR if applicable) minus Global recharge. With a floor of 0% recharge.
I was stuck on making the performance on-par with PvE. Making it completely equal and I couldn't see a way to do that.
This would make the performance of procs go up in PvP sometimes and down in others.
What you're saying is,
I have 50% recharge in the power, and 100% global. That equals 150% rech, DRed to 114% recharge. You'd then subtract the 100% global recharge to get 14% recharge in the power, and that's what PPM is based off of.
This would be -exactly- equal with a power with 14% rech and 100% global in PvE. The only deceptive part is the fact that I could use full sets (even with +rech in them) and get the benefit of those in PvE who had to specifically dodge them.
I'm sure it's possible, I just wouldn't know how to code that myself.
If a power had the minimum 16.2% recharge, and globally had 100% recharge. 116.2% would be DRed to 94% recharge. Subtracting 100% would make it hit the floor of 0%. Of course, this is the -exact same- chance it would have to fire in PvE, while recharging a bit more slowly because of DR. That would be close enough to balance for me, since the example above this was slightly more powerful.
Then again, it would be more math for the PvP community, and there's already too much of that.
I would like this change, understanding that procs would be better/worse depending on the situation in PvP than PvE.
I'm not sure the devs would go for this, but if they did, I'd be fine with it. PvPers would like if they could do more damage.
Ever since Incarnate came out, there's been more and more ties between fights when there shouldn't be. Interface's DoT as an offense can't counter Destiny/Burnout as a defense. This would be a really beneficial change.
At the same time, I would prefer Recharge not be DRed at all. It would be less work for them, and as well as making procs equal in PvE/PvP, it would help fix the problem of ties. It would also cause less confusion with PvE players keeping their attack chains in PvP. -
Quote:Were questions asking why PvP questions weren't allowed allowed?Originally Posted by LAST_RONIN
Z was also the red tag that told me "No questions on PvP will be allowed." during the live Ustream of the player summit.
On a more serious note, I'm curious if they had these kinds of restrictions for other topics.
Or if this is was specific to PvP.
Unless they had a designated time for speak about PvP later or earlier than that time, I can't say I agree with their logic.
If you have to tell everyone not to ask a certain kind of question, doesn't it kind of mean they have a big voice in the community?
Either way, it's more attention than we usually get. -
Quote:You're underestimating the value of procs in PvP. The third time I've had to post this.Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
The thread is also titled specifically to fear-monger. It is NOT a global damage nerf. Players that don't use Procs aren't going to see any difference in their damage output, and Synapse has already said that some of the lower activation rate (10-15%) procs are going to be brought up in line with existing procs and that he foresees procs across the board firing off more often after he's done than they do currently... even if that means that high-end builds might not get as much benefit from the change as a lower-end build might.
+Dmg is DRed, resistance is typically 40%-50%. The fact that procs are -unresisted- and unaffected by DR means they have a huge role in PvP. Anywhere from 30%-50% of damage can come from procs alone.
When you're fighting an electric armor or invul melee in a t9, around 80% of your damage is coming from procs. Depending on how many you have, that can get them down. I had a Claw/regen that used 4 procs in Swipe/Strike/Slash/Follow up. I can tell you the majority of my damage was from procs alone.
When I started to do some PvE calculations, I thought it was odd people weren't 4 Procing their attacks. That's because in PvE, +dmg means a lot, and procs are resisted.
Procs are a huge deal in PvP. Every single PvP build you see will have multiple procs. There is no question that a change to procs is a change to PvP.
You're right about one thing. It's very possible that the procs will be doing more damage on average than now. That's not the point.
The point is that if the procs are balanced in PvE, they will be -underpreforming- in PvP.
If you've read all my posts, you'd understand that. If they give +1000 HP to every AT except for Blasters, I am calling that a Blaster surivability nerf. The reason being that all the new content, new powers, and anything ever adjusted will be adjusted assuming every AT has that +1000HP.
This is what's happening to PvP. PvE and PvP have similar procs right now, but if -any- PPM system is introduced that calculates recharge and has the procs performance based off of that, the procs will not preform as well in PvP.
This means that our procs in PvP will not be as good as in PvE. It's impossible to balance.
The proc sees that my power recharges in 10 seconds and gives me a percentage based on that, except with DR it actually recharged in 15 seconds.
It's evaluating my powers incorrectly. If someone didn't know the mechanics of why it was happened, this would be classified as a bug. To be honest, it pretty much is a bug. An unforeseen, unintended consequence of a change. A change that means certain circumstances will result in less damage given.
I understand they are still in the testing phase, but that's why I need to bring attention to it now. There aren't any solutions to making PPM and DR work together. They could spend a lot of time trying to tweak it, but it will never work. It could be in the earliest stages or coming out next week, the idea itself is flawed in regards to PvP.
My thread title is accurate. I've shown with Fire blast, that it's damage chain will be reduced.
If they change it where as Fire Blast chains will do more, it's still a nerf compared to the proc chances it has in PvE. -
Quote:They've changed this actually, you can see everyone's powers, although your point stands true. AT is not enough to know what they are, which is one thing I love.Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
in fact, if you'll notice IN PVP zones, the powers tab if you pull up info is missing.
The real reason I'm posting is because of Memphis Bill's first response to the OP. I've never seen a Non-PvPer hit the nail on the head so perfectly. I had to comment on it's great accuracy.
If anyone had skipped over the first response to the OP, you should go reread. It sums up my opinions, as well as a lot of PvPers I've spoke to over the years. Good job on it. -
Quote:I may have mentioned it before, but with +dmg being DRed, and the average resistance around 40%-50%, those chances for unresisted damage can equal up to 50% of your damage.Originally Posted by Greyhame
If survival is that good in comparison to damage, enough so that just changing procs a bit will cause this, then something bigger needs to be changed and the problem isn't procs.
Edit: Although I can understand why people would object to it.
I know because the lead Fight Clubbers use Jab and Boxing with 3-4 procs in each, and half of their damage is just 'Chance for X unresisted damage'. In a normal ranged build, procs can add up to roughly 35% of someone's damage output.
Not to mention some rely heavily on procs while others don't. Psi/Em blasters don't rely on procs nearly as much as Rad/Em blasters.
I would agree that having "chance for" damage being a large portion isn't ideal for PvP, although in 5-10 minute matches, it almost always events out. Throwing around 500 attacks will do that. -
Quote:That was my first thought concerning PPM and PvP. The amount of DR that S gets is dependent on G, but that's only decided -after- S and G have been combined, and even then I can't think of a reasonable way to make it equal with different global recharges. I suppose it may be possible to find out what percentage of the slotted rech makes up the total recharge, and use that same percentage of the DRed total to get a value, but then it would still preform much differently than it would in PvE. Not only that, but the more global recharge, the less the percent of +rech considered in the power and the higher proc chance. Like I said, I can't think of any reasonable way to get around it with DR.Originally Posted by Arcanaville
The bigger problem now that it has been mentioned to me, is that there is no obvious way to factor global recharge out of slotted recharge in PvP. You can't just say that if we have S+G, we'll just take S and DR it and then factor that in. I suppose theoretically you can, but its not really mathematically kosher. I suspect you'd be fudging the numbers looking for something that generates reasonably acceptable results.
Good try, but unless the devs were already planning on nullifying DR, I don't think any change to the proc system is going to be the impetus for doing it.
As for getting rid of DR, haha, I can try can't I?
I'll admit getting rid of DR completely would mean a lot of other balance issues they don't want to deal with (as Siolfir mentioned, Squishy Res).
At the same time, I don't see any issues with setting the recharge parameters to A=1 and B=0 so that recharge isn't affected by DR.
If recharge itself wasn't affected by DR, then we'd have the procs working as intended in all areas of the game equally, as well as an indirect damage buff to speed up PvP a little (Better attack chains).
That would also make it much more PvE friendly, as PvErs going into PvP would still have their optimal attack chain. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Siolfir
Off-topic to the PPM question, but relevant to the suggested solution - don't most arena matches leave DR on because the base resistances granted for the PvP environment end up causing you to do far less damage overall, even with a better chain and unresisted procs firing more often?
The settings I've seen almost universally disabled were heal decay and travel suppression, and the answer when I asked about DR was that "it made it almost impossible to get a kill against someone who was halfway competent" because there wasn't a way to disable the base resistances. While I admittedly am not an expert and haven't done any calculations to figure out how the effects would change, the reasoning behind your suggestion of disabling DR seems to be the same, and I don't see how the suggestion puts you in a better place.
Edit: posted this in the thread in the PvP section discussing the upcoming changes - replies on this tangent should probably go there.
Very true.
The squishy resistances being so high (40%) were implemented knowing DR would make them a lot less. That's why people don't turn off DR in the arena, without an option to turn off base resistances, we've got the big buff without the big debuff to put it in place.
With a solution of getting rid of DR, I would also mean getting rid of everything in place that -depends- on DR, such as squishy resistances.
I realize that's a pretty big request that most likely won't go through, so I've changed my solution to just getting DR to not affect recharge. Setting the parameters of A=1 and B=0 for recharge would make it unaffected by DR. This would mean that the procs work the exact same in PvE as PvP.
Thanks for the reponse, I almost posted it in the other thread. -
I've posted the evidence of how PPM will always be underpreforming in PvP on the official thread.
This thread was to alert the playerbase that only reads the PvP forums.
Here's the post.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...&postcount=686 -
Quote:Or I realize that any major news regarding PvP should be posted in the PvP forums. If something is going to affect the PvP player base on a huge scale, it seems like a good decision to post it where they will see it.Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
So... you're making a new thread to complain about something that isn't even being beta tested yet and already has an official discussion thread?
Clearly this must be the best way to communicate your displeasure to the developers.
If you've read everything I've stated, it doesn't matter how they decide to tweak the PPM rates or the equation.
It -cannot- work with DR.
Unless they scrap the PPM idea all together, PvP is going to get hit.
If they instead actually scrap the idea all together, maybe these posts and threads helped.
And you really thought I was trying to communicate with the developers from the PvP forums? That's worth a good laugh -
Synapse, please consider the following problem.
Here are the effects of the PPM model in regards to PvP.
This should be a long post...
Here we are.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...U9GRXZ6MGdNX0E
EXPLANATION:
I've used Blaze as an example. It has a recharge of 10 seconds and an animation time of 1 second.
I've used 2 variables, recharge slotted in the power and global recharge.
I wanted to compare 0/0.25/0.5 up to reasonable numbers (100% recharge in power and 175% global recharge), but because the zone gives 16.2% recharge as a base, this was used instead of 0. When they were added so they could be DRed, they were labelled "Added".
Seeing as the standard PPM is currently 3, I've used that for the proc example.
I found out how fast Blaze would recharge in PvE and then in PvP (With DR).
I calculated the PPM chance (Same in PvP and PvE) based on the recharge slotted, ignoring global recharge (as PPM ignore them).
I then applied DR to the total of recharge the power has (Global and slotted) and compared that to the recharge the power has without DR.
The next part is complicated. If the power was to recharge in 5 seconds and had a 50% chance to proc, I would calculate that it would take 10 seconds before it could proc. This is labelled as "Time until proc fires". I do this in order to combine the recharge time with the PPM percent chance, allowing me to compare the two (Compare PvE/PvP effectiveness).
I then calculated the PvE advantage over PvP. I listed them as precents in the last column for the viewer's clarity.
CONCLUSIONS DRAWN:
If an individual lacked recharge in the power and globally, the base of 16.2% recharge would only make the procs 0.38% less effective. That is below 1% effectiveness. I could live with that if that were the norm. It is not.
It looks like the maximum amount of effectiveness PvE can gain over PvP is roughly 38% more effective. That's assuming 100% recharge in the power and 175% recharge globally, which is around the maximum for a high-end PvP build. 200+ rech builds only really exist in PvE.
The middle ground is around 20%, where as people won't be slotting for recharge in the power but will be slotting a high amount of global recharge so they can obtain an optimal chain with the highest percent chances for their procs.
MAXIMUM PROC RATE PROBLEM:
My biggest problem is that, if someone decides to slot 0 recharge in Blaze, they have a 55% chance for their proc to fire. If that someone walks into PvP, they have a 48% chance to fire. The maximum proc fire rate is lower in PvP because of the small 16.2% bonus we get. The most effective builds will purposely dodge +rech in their powers to get higher proc changes, but the PvP zone is specifically lowering their chance for procs to fire.
ARGUMENTS:
This is very important if you're skeptical.
The fact that procs will be more powerful in PvE could also be said about the percent procs today, because if I have a 33% chance for dmg proc in an attack, I can use it much more in PvE than PvP because DR doesn't exist and take away my recharge. The problem with this argument is optimal chains.
Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze in PvP with procs currently does the same amount of proc damage as it does in PvE. With these new procs, and the amount of recharge to get this chain being more with DR, it means an individual needs to slot more recharge to get this chain, meaning the chain has -less- proc damage than in PvE now.
With the above example and the spreadsheet, it's obvious that the PPM mechanics won't be able to fit with PvP.
SOLUTION:
Turn off DR for recharge in PvP zones.
That would speed up survivability chains, but make more optimal chains possible; making debuffs come up faster, but making buffs come up faster. Everything would even out, if not speed up PvP a bit more making it enjoyable for people.
Since PPM mechanics look at the recharge slotted and don't factor in DR at all, they cannot work with DR. -
Quote:It doesn't, I realize global recharge has no effect on the proc rate.Originally Posted by Cheetatron
I hate the nerf to IO Procs and even more so SBE procs but to be fair some of that wall of text seems to be working off the first propstion that proc hurt rates based off global recharge like SB, hasten and io set bonuses but that is no longer the case
The problem is that the procs go off of the Rech slotted in the power before DR is factored. If every has 0 global recharge, it's possible they could put the PPM rates based on the DRed total of recharge, but every in PvP has global recharge.
I'm done trying to explain this in words I can't find. Instead I'll just post some numbers. -
While reading this thread, I asked a friend what level I was on her global friend list since we were both getting PLed.
She told me you can put your cursor over your SKed level (49 in this situation) and it'll tell you your "experience level".
I've played over 7 years and didn't know that. I've always asked people to check my level for me and I've been asked, for years, the same question.
Time to act like I knew the entire time
EDIT: Someone beat me to it near the top, didn't know the feature was new *fhew* -
Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's possible they might be able to make them count DR'd values when in PvP zones. It would probably still reduce damage, but less, if they could do that.
Edit:
I'm not sure if you posted that before reading all of Synapse's updates, but that won't count against you. It's only the slotted recharge component (including Alpha Spiritual, if applicable) that does reduce proc rates.
Thanks for the response.
The way DR works is that it takes your global recharge + your slotted recharge and DRs that. Diminishing returns only affects the recharge of a power -after- global and slotting has been added, but the PPM procs look at a portion of the recharge -before- they've been added. The PPM procs will have to check how much recharge is slotted in the power, the problem is that DR doesn't come into effect until after global recharge is added.
The DR'd value is factored using global recharge while the PPM percent is factored not using global recharge. This is the major flaw.
The recharge in the power, say 100%, will be DRed to 80%, or to 50%, or to 20% depending on the global recharge.
It's hard for me to explain, but I'm almost sure it's impossible. DR affects the total, and the PPM will reference the actual percent in the power. If it were to reference the DR total, it would be factoring in global recharge.
Also...
The +rech is the same mechanic used by Alphas. That's also why Judgements do slightly more damage in PvP, they receive a small +16.2% dmg buff that's DRed to around +15.8% or so.Quote:Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not sure if you posted that before reading all of Synapse's updates, but that won't count against you. It's only the slotted recharge component (including Alpha Spiritual, if applicable) that does reduce proc rates.
Yes, even the small bonus the zone gives you is DRed.
If you walk into a PvP zone and put your cursor over your brawl, you'll see 16.2% Acc, 16.2% Dmg and the dreaded 16.2% rech, even though it's unslotted (assuming it is). -
Yes yes, it's a huge wall of text.
TL;DR It's a long explanation of why your damage is going to be less after they change the current procs. This is because the procs are set up as if DR doesn't exist. Unless these procs are changed to consider PvP, or PvP is changed to consider the procs, -you- are going to be doing less damage.
It's indirectly nerfing all of our damage, as procs will go off more often, but in attacks not used as much, and the balance is tilted to lowering your damage.
Here it is.
Quote:Originally Posted by Sentry4
One thing really bothers me, and that's if even if I have ZERO slotting of rech in the power, PvP gives me that little 16.4% bonus.
That means that being in a PvP zone will lower my proc rate. They specifically ignored global recharge because they didn't want other player buffs affecting the individual. Except now a zone buff is affecting my recharge, meaning an outside source meant to buff me is debuffing me.
I doubt they will look into this, because not enough people realize this or the mechanics in PvP to understand it and have a voice about it. Maybe someone with some influence can make this case to the devs, because people still PvP.
The solution would be to cut off the little linear +rech bonus to powers in a PvP zone. This means if someone intentionally wants to leave +rech out of their power for a higher proc rate, they can do so in Peace.Quote:Originally Posted by Sentry4
There is a HUGE problem for PvP.
The PPM does not factor DR.
PPM goes off the recharge slotted in the power, but DR only affects the total of my recharge.
That means that if I have 100% slotting in my power, PPM mechanics treat it like the power recharges 100% faster, when in truth that 100% recharge is DRed to 83%.
Whatever you decide the balance to be in PvE, it will be -underpreforming- in PvP because of this. That is not good, that means either PvP is balanced with procs or PvE is.
It is completely impossible to balance both the PvP and PvE procs because they're based on a number we have -before- DR hits us. Meaning PPM is treating us as if we're at full power when we're not.
PPM will -not- work in the current PvP setting. This is definitely a nerf to procs, or at least it will always underpreform to it's PvE countepart.
I "would" suggest that the devs make procs use the normal % method we've been using for years, but that won't solve the problem. It would make problems worse since people with PvE builds going into PvP will be even -further- from a PvP build. It would mean builds -must- be PvP spec'd, because yet another mechanic is changed from PvE to PvP. It would create more confusion and make PvP die more.
You can't return the procs to %s for that reason, and you can't implement the PPM system because it won't fit with DR.
Hell, this is really really reallllllllly going to hurt PvP. Procs are extremely important because they are unresisted damage, and with DR taking away a ton of +dmg, unresisted extra damage is the only way we can kill each other.
The only solution to this problem is to get rid of DR, so that PPM work in PvE and PvP exactly the same.
I don't expect this to happen though. More likely, PvP will get hit again.
I know the devs expressed how they needed to test a PvP environment without DR and TS and didn't want to just flip the switches, but it's either taking a chance or wrecking the current PvP system.
Turn off DR before the ship sinks.Quote:Originally Posted by Sentry4
Finished.
While I can't give the full details or slotting (I'm a PvPer, and giving out my build is handing people my weakness and strengths on a piece of paper), the calculations were fairly simple.
The normal Apoc/Glad Jav Flares, Glad Jav in Fire Blast, and ATO proc/Glad Jav in Blaze on a Fire blaster gives +48 unresisted DPS. This was with the %s we have now.
Unforuntately, the ATO proc has a +rech component, meaning slotting it makes all the procs go off less often in that power. The next best DPS I could get was +41.4 DPS, that means it's a 7 DPS drop, which is a lot when you consider it's unresisted. For that reason, it's DPS drop is doubled (Typical resistance is 40% - 50%, and +dmg is DRed) compared to normal 200+ DPS builds. PvP numbers don't go that high. This DPS change is more like a 8% drop rather than the <4% drop if we were in DPS numbers of 200+.
Not only that, but like I stated up above, Blaze is close range and a player won't actually get it off that often. Using my more realistic chain above, the DPS goes from
41 DPS --> 30.5 DPS
All of the unresisted damage is stuck in Blaze, and even though it goes off more often in that power, the power itself is used -once- for every 3 flares in practice.
This is really bad. PvP is a lot different than PvE. Everyone survives by chaining powers, much like how regens do in PvE. If I drop 10% in damage, it means some people will be able to chain their Rebirth/Hiber/Hoarfrost + other powers that couldn't before. In a match with the current system, I could kill them 10 seconds before their Hiber was back and win. In the new system, that 10% drop in damage would mean they could make it into Hiber, and that's enough time for Rebirth, which stalls enough to make it to Hoarfost and the chain never ends. This is how all Ranged -and- Melee PvP is. Constant DPS to burn through everything the person has and kill them in the biggest space in their survivability chain. Nothing like PvE.
This is why Regen brutes with Recon/DP/IH/MoG/Barrier/Demonic/Burnout are near impossible to kill. The biggest pause they have in survivability comes after 20 minutes of full DPS, I've tested it against many brutes.
I don't believe Soul Touch was 100% sure the procs were getting nerfed, because even I wasn't, but he was correct about it. With PPM not factoring DR, with the biggest load of unresisted damage in a power you can't always use (limited range) and not even being able to use sets in the powers now (no more glad jav bonuses, they have +rech in 4/6 of their IOs), this is a massive nerf to procs for fire, which is very popular.
I don't expect any powersets will do more damage with the current formula for the PPM procs or the way they calculate their % chance. This is going to globally lower the damage of PvPers, unless the procs are buffed to the point where they're extremely overpowered in PvE and overcome the % procs used in PvP currently. I doubt that. -
Finished.
While I can't give the full details or slotting (I'm a PvPer, and giving out my build is handing people my weakness and strengths on a piece of paper), the calculations were fairly simple.
The normal Apoc/Glad Jav Flares, Glad Jav in Fire Blast, and ATO proc/Glad Jav in Blaze on a Fire blaster gives +48 unresisted DPS. This was with the %s we have now.
Unforuntately, the ATO proc has a +rech component, meaning slotting it makes all the procs go off less often in that power. The next best DPS I could get was +41.4 DPS, that means it's a 7 DPS drop, which is a lot when you consider it's unresisted. For that reason, it's DPS drop is doubled (Typical resistance is 40% - 50%, and +dmg is DRed) compared to normal 200+ DPS builds. PvP numbers don't go that high. This DPS change is more like a 8% drop rather than the <4% drop if we were in DPS numbers of 200+.
Not only that, but like I stated up above, Blaze is close range and a player won't actually get it off that often. Using my more realistic chain above, the DPS goes from
41 DPS --> 30.5 DPS
All of the unresisted damage is stuck in Blaze, and even though it goes off more often in that power, the power itself is used -once- for every 3 flares in practice.
This is really bad. PvP is a lot different than PvE. Everyone survives by chaining powers, much like how regens do in PvE. If I drop 10% in damage, it means some people will be able to chain their Rebirth/Hiber/Hoarfrost + other powers that couldn't before. In a match with the current system, I could kill them 10 seconds before their Hiber was back and win. In the new system, that 10% drop in damage would mean they could make it into Hiber, and that's enough time for Rebirth, which stalls enough to make it to Hoarfost and the chain never ends. This is how all Ranged -and- Melee PvP is. Constant DPS to burn through everything the person has and kill them in the biggest space in their survivability chain. Nothing like PvE.
This is why Regen brutes with Recon/DP/IH/MoG/Barrier/Demonic/Burnout are near impossible to kill. The biggest pause they have in survivability comes after 20 minutes of full DPS, I've tested it against many brutes.
I don't believe Soul Touch was 100% sure the procs were getting nerfed, because even I wasn't, but he was correct about it. With PPM not factoring DR, with the biggest load of unresisted damage in a power you can't always use (limited range) and not even being able to use sets in the powers now (no more glad jav bonuses, they have +rech in 4/6 of their IOs), this is a massive nerf to procs for fire, which is very popular.
I don't expect any powersets will do more damage with the current formula for the PPM procs or the way they calculate their % chance. This is going to globally lower the damage of PvPers, unless the procs are buffed to the point where they're extremely overpowered in PvE and overcome the % procs used in PvP currently. I doubt that. -
There is a HUGE problem for PvP.
The PPM does not factor DR.
PPM goes off the recharge slotted in the power, but DR only affects the total of my recharge.
That means that if I have 100% slotting in my power, PPM mechanics treat it like the power recharges 100% faster, when in truth that 100% recharge is DRed to 83%.
Whatever you decide the balance to be in PvE, it will be -underpreforming- in PvP because of this. That is not good, that means either PvP is balanced with procs or PvE is.
It is completely impossible to balance both the PvP and PvE procs because they're based on a number we have -before- DR hits us. Meaning PPM is treating us as if we're at full power when we're not.
PPM will -not- work in the current PvP setting. This is definitely a nerf to procs, or at least it will always underpreform to it's PvE countepart.
I "would" suggest that the devs make procs use the normal % method we've been using for years, but that won't solve the problem. It would make problems worse since people with PvE builds going into PvP will be even -further- from a PvP build. It would mean builds -must- be PvP spec'd, because yet another mechanic is changed from PvE to PvP. It would create more confusion and make PvP die more.
You can't return the procs to %s for that reason, and you can't implement the PPM system because it won't fit with DR.
Hell, this is really really reallllllllly going to hurt PvP. Procs are extremely important because they are unresisted damage, and with DR taking away a ton of +dmg, unresisted extra damage is the only way we can kill each other.
The only solution to this problem is to get rid of DR, so that PPM work in PvE and PvP exactly the same.
I don't expect this to happen though. More likely, PvP will get hit again.
I know the devs expressed how they needed to test a PvP environment without DR and TS and didn't want to just flip the switches, but it's either taking a chance or wrecking the current PvP system.
Turn off DR before the ship sinks. -
Quote:Originally Posted by William_Valence
Current equation for ST attacks is
PPM * (((Base recharge / (1 + slotted recharge buffs)) + Activation time) / 60 )
Slotted recharge buffs are from enhancements and alpha powers, and do not include global buffs.
Activation time is the displayed activation time, not the arcanatime activation time.
Trying to remember what the rates were, without the builds in front of me, you should see about 22%-24% in the first T1/T2 powers, and 57ish% in Blaze.
I don't quite get the chain though.
Going by a Fire/Devices build you posted on the PvP forum, the best chain would be Blaze/Flares/Fire Blast. It's quite likely I'm missing something with DR, though, that caused that mistake.
Tyvm.
I've never posted one of my own builds. The Fire/Devices build I had posted was almost exactly a duplicate as the one that MrLiberty had posted above mine. I wanted to tell them to switch a couple powers, but it was too confusing when I wrote it down and decided to show it. My builds are much much higher quality You can tell if a build is mine by the 53 HOs everywhere, I'm addicted to them.
You're correct in that Blaze/Flares/Fire Blast would be the optimal chain. But with Flares being 1.188, Fire Blast being 1.848, and there needing to be a safety buffer of 0.25 seconds from when Blaze is recharged to when it can be fired in a chain, it would need...
258% recharge PvE
Aka
584% recharge PvP
I would need 6 kins speed boosting me ontop of a 190% recharge build and 80% rech slotted in Blaze to pull that chain off.
DR is like that, it makes Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze the most optimal "possible" chain. Again, I said getting Blaze off every 4th attack is near impossible. Either the target is kiting out of your range, or you'll die being too close to a melee.
I'll do the calculations for the chain right now.
One thing really bothers me, and that's if even if I have ZERO slotting of rech in the power, PvP gives me that little 16.4% bonus.
That means that being in a PvP zone will lower my proc rate. They specifically ignored global recharge because they didn't want other player buffs affecting the individual. Except now a zone buff is affecting my recharge, meaning an outside source meant to buff me is debuffing me.
I doubt they will look into this, because not enough people realize this or the mechanics in PvP to understand it and have a voice about it. Maybe someone with some influence can make this case to the devs, because people still PvP.
The solution would be to cut off the little linear +rech bonus to powers in a PvP zone. This means if someone intentionally wants to leave +rech out of their power for a higher proc rate, they can do so in Peace.
I'll start my DPS calculations right now. I know Soul Touch uses Char, and I believe he's not happy because he's using 2 100% PPM in it (ghost widow, neurotic). At least I hope he was, or else I just gave him a good slotting option. Either way, I'll be leaving Char out, since most don't use it.
Be back soon! -
Quote:I'm a bit late to the show. If I can get the current formulas, I can see whether fire blast is doing more or less damage.Originally Posted by William_Valence
Thing is, this wasn't an entirely altruistic endevor.
Just about every Fire blast build I've seen, for PvP, would lose between 3%-10% in combined proc rates between Flares and Fire Blast. They'd gain in the area of 20% proc rate for Blaze.
That appears to be a net-positive to me.
The most optimal chain is Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze, but in actual play, you aren't always close enough to use Blaze. I main a Fire/Dev and can say my chain is closer to...
Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Fire Blast/Flares/Blaze. When people are kiting around boxes and jumping really high, this is the most realistic chain.
That's a huge difference from PvE, where range for a DPS chain doesn't mean nearly as much.
If procs are dependent on the rech in the power, we're going to see a ton of builds with 180+ global rech, with attacks only slotted with HOs and procs. Nobody'll want rech in their attacks, and after 180% rech the rest is DRed to a second or so off the recharge of the power anyways.
Luckily I've been stocking 53 HOs for a change like this.
This should buff Psi/em blasters even more, the most popular PvP blaster AT. They have 4 attacks and factoring DR they can't even have a full uninterruptable string of attacks. They're a lot like a ranged broadsword.
That being said, Fire has 24 DPS over the 2nd highest blaster primary, so this may be appropriate. The DoT is scaled to PvE instead of PvP, which gives fire too much of an edge. -
Quote:Make sure to ban Night Widows and Arch-Mage of Agony.Originally Posted by Mr_NoBody
yeah that's a shame, but I don't see how adding more Gladiators would be any different from adding more lore pets.... same play style, just only in the arena.
There are a few members in my SG that still have battles and they are fun... and hilarious... But I guess if it doesn't make them money they won't spend the time to improve it.
The Night Widows stacks -tohit onto an already low base tohit mob. Putting them together means they'll kill everything extremely easy. They're essentially at soft cap all the time.
The Arch-Mage of Agony are an odd case. I remember hearing they're actually Elite Bosses instead of normal bosses.
Necrotech is correct, I remember there being some quote letting the playerbase know that gladiators were being fully abandoned. -
Quote:Not always the case.Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Except that you can be permanently banned from the game if caught buying or selling in-game items for real life money.
Losing $12.50 once is a lot cheaper than losing the near $1000 I've spent on my account over the last 8 years. Plus that money actually goes somewhere I want it to go (Paragon Studios), rather than funding Chinese gangs or prisons.
A friend of mine emailed himself a lot of money and lost it. When he contacted customer support, they told him they had records of him dealing with RMTers.
He just never responded and he was never banned.
I've also had one girl accidently slip that she buys inf all the time in front of a GM, and they didn't care.
I've actually never heard of anyone banned from buying it, and I can tell you the majority of PvPers did back in the day. I can only name 3 PvPers who never have, that includes me. That excludes a couple kids I know in the 10-13 range who have used it too.
Racist comments against Jewish people or comments of anything about the holocaust pretty much results in a perma-ban within 24 hours though. I've seen that countless times. -
Quote:---Deleted by myself because graystar's behaviour in another thread. He needs not know my superior tactics.---Originally Posted by graystar_blaster
is there any information you can share without divulging your niche as to win/loss? Damn good rate though.
Is it pvp or purples or regular def,health. etc.. -
8.528 billion / 150 converters = 56.8 million per converter.
That's my spreadsheet says.
EDIT: 9.240 billion / 155 converters = 59.6 million per converter. It fluctuates around these two values. -
Quote:Aside from freedom, Virtue still has a few. It's worth going over there and fighting them. I know of 1 or 2 that do extremely well and just hate freedom too much to go over there.Originally Posted by SAUZER
Hi all,i'm a playing in freedom server,but i want to know which is server that has more clubber pvp players like me. Thx for answer me.
I'd look for
-Burn Toy
-Buchannon
-Kinji
-Frozen Viper
-Goon
-Xenophen
-Stop Drop and LOL
-Pyrohawk
-Hot Secs
-UB
and Vincent Balmont if he would hurry the hell up and get back to CoH.
^ All nicknames, you'll have to ask others for globals or toon names.
I've also been too busy to strip my melee, and I suppose if you beat most of the people on that list I could fight you. Game hasn't changed at all since I stopped Fight Clubbing, so it's still a top end build.
Pinnacle is also still holding an even smaller amount, but they exist. Blood Goddess is over there and I think he still does Fight Club. -
Thanks for saving me from a bunch of calculations MrLiberty. Props on the direct evidence.
I have never seen Thunder Strike crit more than twice, and I can't think of many people who watch combat log as closely as I do. I've been watching Thunder strike's double crit since...i15 I believe, when I started watching my combat log. I can tell you two things.
If it did crit 3x-4x and has been like this for a long time, it has under a 1% chance of happening. Nothing mechanic wise would explain this.
If it did crit 3x-4x and it's new, it may have been broken by something else (doubtful). If someone had a screenshot showing it, the best explanation I could think of is that the Chance for Hide proc puts you into another 'type' of hide, and it may fill the requirements for both "in hide" and "not in hide". As far as I've seen, that doesn't exist, and whether you're hide or not is dependent on your 'source.kMeter' is at 1 or 0.
For normal stalker crits, we have 'If source.kMeter > 0' meaning if you're -not- 0 than you must be 1, which equals hide.
For the other 2 crits, we have 'If (source.kMeter < 0.9) and ((target.kHeld > 0) or (target.kSleep > 0))' meaning if you're below 0.9, which would be 0 (out of hide), you have a chance to crit (assuming the target is slept/held...they should really add stun).
I believe the system uses 1 and 0 as a true or false, and it can't have inbetweens such as 0.3 (Even if it would be within both requirements).
The truth is that my understanding stops here. Anything after that is pure speculation based on evidence we already have.
Try to screenshot it next time. Although I don't believe that this is possible at all. If it is, I'll call for backup from some people who'll know.
But as it stands, without hard evidence (screenshot), and with all the theortical math against it, I will still go around only telling people it can only double crit.
I would love if you could prove me otherwise, it would be very interesting. -
Quote:This isn't true.Originally Posted by Antigonus
It has a chance to crit up to 4 times on the same target. Auto crit in hide for the first, 50% chance for the second, 20% chance for the third and 10% for the fourth. That is only in PvP though if I recall correctly. It doesn't happen often that you can get all four crits, but it's a glorious thing when it does. I've 2 shot Scrappers at full health with AS+TS. The best part is that TS is stupidly easy to jump cancel the animation, so if they are dumb and not watching their status bar, they don't even notice there is another attack coming at them until it's too late. All they see is me jumping away and then loldednub.
Thunderstrike -cannot- crit 4 times, it can only crit twice.
Thunderstrike does
96.74 Smashing Damage
96.74 Energy Damage
100% chance for crit of 96.74 Smashing Damage (From hide)
50% chance for crit of 96.74 Energy Damage (From hide)
The 20% and 10% are -only- out of hide, meaning even if they both went off, that would only equal what thunderstrike -in- hide is 50% of the time.
No other stalker power can do 386.96 base damage (outside of AS). In fact that may be the hardest hitting attack a person can get.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...Lightning_Clap