Scarlet Shocker
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Posts
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Joined
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Quote:Originally Posted by TriAngel_EU
Personally I'm a huge fan of making content challenging rather than trying to steamroll everything, though it seems that's becoming increasingly hard to do these days.
I seem to recall a time (I'm thinking around i7-i8, along those lines) many AVs were a challenge. Doing Maria's arc was a challenge. Doing even something like a Crimson arc could be tough with the wrong team - the regular mobs on it, that is.
If it wasn't already you could often make it that with your rep setting. As such I ended up running everything on Invincible I think it was called at the time, and its blue side counterpart.
Now if I set my difficulty to +4x8, which already equates to a lot more than Invincible was back then, the average PUG still seems to have enough alphas, level shifts and hundreds of set bonusses to steamroll it with one hand tapping the controls and the other graciously tilting the beer bottle.
Note: This is all generally speaking.
Ofcourse there were simple things back then too and ofcourse there's the occasion challenge now. Yet somewhere underneath it all I can't help getting caught by the impression that somewhere the upping the content difficulty and adapting the available difficulty settings to rebalance this took a wrong turn.
This leads me to the big question: Is it all just my imagination?
Or is anyone else getting plagued by that dominant feeling of relative lack of challenge as well?
I very much agree that the game is far easier than when I started and I do miss a lot of the challenge.
When first began to play towards the end of I6, the game was significantly harder, but that doesn't mean it was universally better. I'd argue that under Cryptic the game was too tough for most players (or at least tougher than was comfortable) and so other games got the huge subscription numbers.
However, the pendulum has largely swung the other way and we are now spoonfed content where failure is virtually impossible (hence in many missions now we get to talk to somebody and then knock them out by clicking a line of text rather than actually do something.) Missions are designed to be completed easily and move you on to the next one.
Maybe a perfect example of this is the Manticore TF. It used to be tough. Really tough. Those Paragon Protectors got their MoG up would just mince the team. It wasn't just tough but it became boring, because you'd get one PP and then another each with full MoG (back when MoG actually meant something) and it would take hours to complete what is a relatively short Task Force.
Now, PPs are soft and the TF, whilst being very good content-wise, is boring because it's too easy to steam roller.
That possibly explains the biggest challenge for the Devs... finding the balance. Can they balance a TF to be a tough challenge for everyone but impossible for none? It's a tough line to walk and instead of taking the challenge many of the game mechanics are altered instead. Reichsmann
So what happens now is a lot of people try and make their own challenge - either by doing speed runs or by doing a TF with as few people as possible, for example. Statesman TF with 4 is a proper challenge and you've got to work hard to make it succeed.
I don't mind that. If content is so easy it gets steam-rollered at the first or 2nd attempt then there's something seriously wrong with it. Inevitably, with static content, once you've worked out how to do something it will become easier, but there remain some objectives in the game that remain a challenge: LRSF, STF, LGTF etc - good content that gives a sense of achievement.
There's less sense of achievement these days for much of the content - but one reason I like Praetoria so much more than the old content is because the missions are tougher and so it's more fun for me.
I sincerely wish the game was more challenging. Maybe an Apex without the Alphas would be a genuine challenge who's up for that?
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Quote:Originally Posted by Schismatrix
You mean besides a 16' zombie puking on you if you wander into the wrong part of the cemetery?
Well... a genuine "hazard zone" with some cool content would be great.
The original concept of Hazard Zones was great except nobody went there cuz there was nothing to do except get killed.
But the Hollows was an excellent hazard zone because there was stuff to do. There was Frostfire and Atta and that remains some of the best content in the game and it's kind of sad that it's run so much less - but back in the day it was almost obligatory. We cut our teeth in the Hollows and for a small zone it sure seems big when you got no travel power.
A proper hazard zone where you can get splattered getting to the target and then having a proper challenge would be great
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Quote:Originally Posted by cursedsorcerer
Rikti because invasion events are epic! They should do something similar with the Praetorians.Quote:Originally Posted by Goblin_Queen
So agreed. Having those portals open up and Praetorians streaming through into Paragon/Rogue Isles would be amazing. Give plenty of opportunities for new badges!
Wonderful ideas!!!! I love the raids and the Praetorians would make excellent raiders. -
Quote:Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Thanks for the laugh.
The absence of a red name post does NOT mean they have not seen them.
And, IMO, the only thing 'telling' is that they KNOW the whiners are a bunch of edge cases not worth worrying over anyway.
Where did I say they don't know about them?
And who exactly are these "edge cases" you refer to? Please enlighten us -
I actually like the BP a lot and think they could have a lot more done with them and made much tougher. They should span to level 54 at least!!!
Dark Astoria should be a zone where bad things happen! -
Quote:and yet, very few of the negative threads about Incarnate/End Game content have even been acknowledged by any red names.Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The fact is I simply want the whine brigade to realize that the number of threads in which they have made their concerns cannot possibly have escaped Paragons notice.
That in itself is telling. -
So I've thought about this some more and tried to quantify my thoughts a little.
It needs to be a challenge. It needs to feel like you have actually done something.
It needs to feel intense and epic. I need to feel like I've actually saved the world - and that failure brings a consequence. If I don't succeed in part of it, I would love that failure to have some kind of consequence and then have a requirement to "Fix" the failure - for example failing to take out the bomb factory means Kings Row gets nuked and if we don't get it right this time Founders Falls is the next target.
It needs to be varied and not as repetitive as what has passed as end game until now. Dynamic content would be excellent but I imagine that would be tricky.
I need to feel like I'm one of the "Chosen Few" - only some of us can save the world. But I need to feel like I'm autonomous not some insane mythical thing controlling me or giving me powers. I'm doing this because it needs to be done and there's only me and my comrades that can do it.
I want it to retain the comicbook feel which CoH has traditionally done better than any other game I've tried.
I want choices. Do I save the civilians who are being herded up by Cole's militia and will be "disappeared" by the morning, or do I save "Little Joe" who's latent powers will save countless lives in the future? I want those choices to have consequences (and running them from the opposite perspective could be cool but a bit tricky.)
I want puzzles that need to be solved. I seem to recall there is a famous comic character who is known as "the Worlds Greatest Detective." It'snot just about "see bad guy, hit bad guy" and that's an aspect of the game that is missing.
I probably want other stuff too but it's slipped my mind cuz I didn't write it down already.
Ultimately, it's all academic because it's a done deal so we'll get what we're given and like it or lump it. -
I first joined 5 years ago and I've only taken three months out of the game and play every day.
That's the best "thankyou" I can give the devs.
Personally I do post when I find stuff I love and I do enjoy the game. But, as a fan, it'd be foolish of me to expect to love everything about the game. But when I find something so troublesome as the "end game" system it would be wrong of me to fail to mention it, because it's probably not just me feeling that way.
But most people don't express those concerns & dislikes, instead they just quit. Which gives the Devs nothing to go on. At least if I tell them what I don't like they are then given the choice of taking my concern on board and examine it. Granted they may choose to do nothing about those concerns but that's something I'll deal with if and when it doesn't happen. But if I and a few other people stick our heads above the parapet and say "Wait a sec, not everything here is perfect because..." that's perfectly legitimate and actually useful.
We know the Devs do listen. The Server List Merge is a prime example. We had to bang on a drum for a long time and they didn't communicate with us very well about it but it did happen and that's a testament to them.
There is a lot to be thankful for in this game and I personally love it. But when I find something that makes me unhappy it's not wrong to point that out either. -
Good point
There's plenty of comicbook rescue missions where the protagonist puts themself at risk to save someone vulnerable, often at a huge cost to themselves (Bruce Banner is a perfect example) but often babes in arms are saved by heroes when nobody else can do the job.
Trouble is there's nobody under 21 in this game :d -
Quote:Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Yeah, what's the point of spending time and thought working on an awesome Blaster build, earning billions of inf to make it happen, rethinking your playstyle and adjusting so you don't die on higher difficulties, when you then go team with people who ran a few trials and can kill everything before you even get to it?
Remember teaming with a bunch of Elec/Shield characters back in i17? Yeah, it's like that.
Well maybe the cost of inventions will drop a lot once everyone's an Incarnate?
But that's actually a serious point that I'd overlooked. The hours and inf I've spent on Scarlet to make her as good as I can could be undone within a few months by the Incarnate system.
I had fun doing it, because in many ways, until now, slotting IOs and improving your build was the end game, but I might feel a bit gypped if my IOs become redundant.
I guess it depends on how the Incarnate system works with IOs, so I'm not going to pre-judge that but it's a concern. -
I brew my own beer and there's a lot to be had out there. When I've got a cold or I want something with an extra kick I'll often bottle it (instead of just siphoning direct to a keg) and then add a dried chili to the bottle. Leave it for three weeks and it blows your head off and clears up the cold in an instant!!!
Works better than most traditional "cold" remedies and it's beer too. Personally I find it much better with lighter beers and ales, lager, IPA etc. Not so great with stouts and porters tho. -
Quote:A blue sprite Vet Pet with sonic shields in pink works very very wellOriginally Posted by galadiman
Still want MiniHamidon. And if the team gets hungry... Jello!
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Quote:Originally Posted by galadiman
Simple resolutions to this 'game is too easy for me' problem are already stated -
Set the diff higher
Unslot your Alpha/downslot it
And the experience can be IDENTICAL, if that is what you are looking for.
It seems that an attitude of
"There's a problem, Devs - FIX IT!"
could be replaced with,
"The game is slightly different than I used to experience. If I want that similar experience back, how can I get that? Let's take a look."
You are focusing on one very minor aspect of my issue. If you actually read what I've said it's the fundamental Incarnate story I have the biggest problem with. Letting this amoral, seemingly crazy thing affect my characters is not how I want to develop them - but I have no choice if I'm to take part in the new content. It's Hobson's choice.
The fact I'd need to unslot the Alpha or increase difficulty is indeed a workaround and I'm very aware of it and I regularly do. However that doesn't counter the fact that the game is going through a continual process of being dumbed down and made easier -
Quote:Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
People on test are running 3-man ITFs with SOs and 7-man Mothership raids. I'm liking Incarnates less and less. The more you trivialize existing content the more it becomes a case of "do the trials or don't play." Or am I the only one who thinks a "I win" button isn't fun after the novelty wears off?
Nope. I'm totally with you.
Since Paragon Studios took over the game has been continually dumbed down until the challenge is miniscule. The "I want more rewards for less effort" has been an overarching philosophy I feel. The new content just makes the existing content even easier - but that said I used to enjoy doing three small team TFs - that was a challenge pre-incarnates. -
I want flying irradiated sharks with buzz saw fins and laser beam eyes that make me a nice cup of tea in between mobs
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Quote:That's my point: Most people in this thread and several others aren't being any more (or less) hysterical than those who write interminably long posts that boil down to "give the rewards with no challenges and no need to team."Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
I didn't mean to indicate that everyone who complains about it is automatically hysterical. But what there is, however, is a tendency to not be interested in discussion. Some people are indeed being hysterical.
However, there is very little actual substantive debate or discussion on the topic. We are judging a completely new system based on the merits of a game that has been rolled out over almost seven years now.
I'll say that again because it bears repeating: We are judging a system based on the merits of the rest of the game that has been rolled out over almost 7 years.
When they gave you the ability to get to 50, once you completed the missions how much was there actually left to do? We had all the arcs. We had the 44 - 50 Shadow Shard TF's and the LRSF for villains, and that was it for a really freaking long time. Even when I signed up in i9, when they finally even gave a reason to play after 50 (IO's as character progression), there was one new TF rolled out - the STF (and by the way, no new villain SF's at 50). Now we could do the STF, Justin Augustine and Faathim. It was only after the next two to three years that the LGTF (and all the vanguard missions), ITF (and Daed's Sister Arlia's mission), and Kahn/Barracuda came out.
This might be the second issue dealing with incarnates, but the system they roll out will be halfway through by the time i20 is done. I'm not trying to say you don't have any claim to be frustrated with the "slow" roll out. I'm not even trying to say that people who are frustrated with the Lore Power have nothing to complain about (although I think that they're simplifying what it would take to "fix" the perceived problem). I'm trying to say that we're judging an entirely new system that hasn't been rolled out yet on the rest of the game which took several years to get to that point.
And yes, some poeple - And I'm not saying you specifically Scarlet - are over reacting to this entire thing. And there's nothing that grates on me more than pointless histrionics. Between that - and to be fair it is on both sides - and the fact that there's a lot of complaining by people who admittedly haven't wandered over to the Beta server and tried the trials, and the fact that there's very little, if any, actual honest debate is extremely annoying. Seriously. How many times have we seen people that won't do the incarnate trails because they hate Hami raids and MSR's (either because they hated the lag, or because they hated putting the team together)? I did test them out because I wanted to see what it would be like. You know what I found? It was absolutely nothing like Hami or MSR. Nothing at freaking all. And they're easy to put together, and should remain that way even on relatively low pop servers. There's other things that I would complain about for sure, but that's not one of them.
Which is what I mean about hysteria. If you don't like it, that's all well and fine. But don't pretend that there should be a breadth and depth of content for incarnates at roll out if you want the roll out to happen any time soon. I'm fairly confident it'll happen, and I'm fairly confident because they've explicitly said that it'll happen, and this is a dev team that rarely operates in absolutes. Whether it will come in a way you'll be satisfied with is something else. But let's complain about that when we get to it, all right?
I am simply saying that based on the End Game content I have played already (ie up to and including I19) I am singularly unimpressed with what I have seen so far. I intensely dislike the concept of the Well of the Furies being this insane "thing" that is out of control. I don't much like the Apex or Tin Mage TFs, and I do not much care for the way the level shift has made the existing content (which incidentally I do like very much) considerably less challenging and therefore less interesting.
To me, End Game didn't need to give us a level shift or bork existing content it needed to give us new challenges and content that is exciting and interesting to do. I don't mind working for shards or collecting the goodies, but the point I feel strongest about is this: If I don't buy into the Incarnate story then my characters are excluded from the End Game. Thus I have to be Incarnate to do it. -
Quote:He's not an Incarnate, he's a very naughty boy!Originally Posted by Mr_Grey
No! I'M Brian!
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Quote:Originally Posted by Biowraith
I'm not sure I've encountered bugger as an adjective. It's usually either a verb (bugger off, bugger it, now we're buggered) or a noun (those little buggers, bugger all, crafty old bugger). The same being true of it's non-slang meanings, though I'm less inclined to post examples of that...
As for "rogering", I'm not sure how widely it's used (probably depends on area), but yeah it's proper UK slang. I vaguely recall some comedian years ago doing a bit about visiting the US, encountering an advert for "Kenny Rogers Chicken", and taking it to be some sort of public announcement.
Which makes us wonder if Sir Roger Moore's parents didn't have a very strange sense of humour -
Vazhilok, Banished Pantheon, Circle of Thorns
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Quote:Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
I think my only point is that there's an increasing segment of the population that's acting as if the sky is falling and we haven't even gotten the bulk of the Incarnate powers released yet. Measured criticism is fine. Hysteria is grating.
If by acting as the sky is falling you mean expressing concern in a rational, level-headed manner I might be tempted to agree with you.
This isn't hysteria, there's no "I hate incarnates ragequit" but there is a legitimate amount of disquiet about the content thus far delivered and that which is imminent.
What would you have us do: STFU and quit if we don't like it, or express it in the only legitimate place where we can at least give some feedback to the Dev team? -
Quote:Originally Posted by Blood_Beret
It has been duo'd plenty of times before the Alpha slot. What makes a trio with Incarnates ablities so special? I don't get it.
It's even been solo'd pre-incarnates before too I believe. Duoing it is relatively easy -
Cool. Every time.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Actually, it's written as "corss" in the title - so it's probably about Freedom server
well if it's referring to smaller servers it's probably an implacable corset - reminds me of my ex wife -
Quote:Originally Posted by AmazingMOO
It'd be great if you could use it for any group.
I'd love to, say, start a mission and pick 'Start Team with Team-Up Teleporter' and have it automatically drop new members in who're looking for a team, any team.
Devs,
If you choose to not have this available from the menus, the existing information kiosks would be a GREAT place to drop this functionality.
until you get 6 blasters a level 4 scrapper and FF controller with no shields
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Quote:Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I used to believe such things... after all, bases were a big selling point, so obviously they'd keep working on them, and they'd be paying attention to and adjusting PVP after the big I13 changes, right? And it's fine to have just 5 (total) AE slots, because they'd keep on selecting Dev Choice arcs to free slots up without making up contests of their own...
Here's a fun experiment for you. Put a dog in a room and then toss in, oh, 10-15 of those "superball" type, really bouncy balls. See how the dog chases one, then spins to chase another, then another, completely forgetting the first one? That's our dev team with new systems and storylines. They'll bite and growl at one for 2-3 whole seconds sometimes, then... "Ooh, ball, chase! theresaball, chase that one ooh ball chase bounce ooh ball!"
Praetoria invading makes sense. It HAS been just hanging there for a while. Praetoria invading after rewriting ending arcs making you a third-string wannabe ("yeah, we needed some REAL hero support, so we sent the Phalanx in, go see if you can get a tip for carrying their golf clubs or something!") and then throwing in this out-of-left-field "The well is insane and loooooves Tyrant!" is disappointing and feels shoehorned in. (Much like the "Dr. whatsisface has jiggled the wibblywot and now we have power proliferation" ridiculous cutscene at the end of the VEAT arcs... which themselves put the yearly production of Hoover to shame.)
Incarnates and the Praetorian invasion should, frankly, have been two separate story 'threads.' We get introduced to the Well via Statesman/Recluse's backstory, and a bit of mention of beings like Stheno. We get introduced to a "lost origin" and Incarnates via Cimerora. Incarnates being introduced as a player system *via* the Midnighters/Cimerora would make sense, and open up multiple ways to build that power - use it against the invasion! Unlock via Midnighter tasks! And who else are the Midnighters responsible for locking away, where Godlike power would be handy? Ruularu! Would it take a bit longer to develop? Of course. But it'd be a better way to handle it than this trainwreck of "Insane Well presents, Emperor Cole and his Dancing Clockwork!"
Well made point. I think this was aptly demonstrated when Positron (as lead Dev) made a trip to the EU Test server for the 5th Anniversary address. He was very clear that they wanted to add a lot more content rather than update or retrofit existing content.
That's fine as far as it goes but in a game as venerable as this, then surely there must be quite a bit of justification for renewing the infrastructure. Indeed they have done it from time to time, but it's less frequent than it should be IMO and they've gone off on this massive and fundamentally game changing project in pursuit of the next shiny - and I'm not at all convinced it's working.
The bottom line is there are a lot of "unfinished projects" in CoH as things stand.