Sarrate

So he did... *hangs head in shame*

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Overall having caped resists is about the same as caped defense. They perform the same mathmatically. Defense does better with controls/debuffs that are not auto hit since they can be avoided, while resists does not have to deal with the random number generator to survive.

The only real reason to want defense over resists I can think of is the defense is far easier to cap.

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Which always confused me. Small +defense(All) powers are everywhere, along with piles of set bonuses in recipes, especially for positional defenses. Resist seems to get so little by comparison. Has there ever been a reason given for this?

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I'd say the two main mitigating factors are:

*) Defense debuffs are the most common debuff in existence, unless you have high def resistance, defense can cascade fail.
*) ToHit buffs (while rarer than def debuffs) are as rough on defense as unresistable res debuffs (ie: Nullifiers' old sonic grenades) are on resist based sets.

Having said that, I've said before that the amount of +def available by set bonuses is getting silly. (Pools don't really bother me since it's taking up a precious power slot and pool slot, not to mention endurance to run.)

I have a question for those of you who have one - does the +3% def aspect of it exemplar like a purple (ie: no 3 level tether)? I've heard that the set bonuses do, but not sure about special IOs like that one...

Happy age++ day to you, sir!

I can't help but wonder why this is on the Tanker forum, but anyways...

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Its like a blaster not blasting... why fill a spot with a kin that doesn't sb anyone? I didn't even suggest that the entire team be SB but not SB anyone is lazy. It takes seconds and helps the TEAM tremendously. So give me a break about tanks not helping the team... go be lazy somewhere else.

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Kin offers much more to a team than just Speed Boost. The second most notable being +dmg buffs from Fulcrum Shift and Siphon Power. Kin can also help solve end problems outside of SB with Transference (this helps melee more than ranged characters, granted). Against hard targets like up level bosses or EB/AVs, Kin debuffs (Siphon Speed included since it's unresistible) can substantially drop enemy damage. To top it off, it has a very strong heal - Transfusion (again, more melee centric).

[edit: This isn't even mentioning other secondary effects that Defender powers have, such as Sonic's -res, Rad's def debuffs/stun, etc.]

Do I like Speed Boost? Oh yes. Do I grumble a bit (to myself, or maybe on Vent) when a Kin never uses SB? Yes. Would I kick them from the team if he is actively participating in other ways? No.

I'm forced to ask, do you have a Kin? It's easy, as a recipient, to shake your fist at the Kin, but after playing it for a bit, I can completely understand why a Kin wouldn't want to keep it up. Two minutes is a lot shorter than you'd think. Even if it only takes "a couple seconds" (try around 15s for an 8 man team) you have to do it a lot (15s every 2 minutes is 1/8 of your playtime).


I have a Kin, and yes I try to keep SB on as many people as I can. I think you're being way too sensitive.


(I should know better than to respond to a post like this...)

It's currently down for maintenance.

Blair: Is this a respec build, or one you'll be leveling up in? If respec, do you exemplar a lot? If it's a respec and you don't exemplar, it's fairly solid. A couple changes I'd make (staying within the realm of SOs/generic IOs):

*) Boxing - I'd remove the damage slot from it and place it into Air Superiority.
*) Focused Accuracy - This costs a lot of endurance, I'd slot it 2-3 end reduc. The tohit buff is much smaller now, and may not be worth enhancing (especially since you have Rage). At any rate, I'd only turn it on if you start missing a lot.

If this is a leveling build or you exemplar, I'd do the following (ignore if it doesn't apply to you):

*) Heightened Senses - I'd push this much sooner.
*) Indomidable Will - I'd push this much sooner.
*) Mind Over Body - I'd push this much sooner.

My personal opinion is that Stamina immediately at lvl20 is a waste, I'd push it off until the mid/late 20s. A full blue bar doesn't mean much if you can't keep yourself alive, afterall.

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4. Heightened senses. The def slots are only effecting Psi def....that may be the reason you did it, but worth noting.
5. Taunt, another preference, I like acc and recharges first. If your tanking for a large team, the acc helps hit more reliable and recharge keeps the power available more for saving squishies.

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Lachlin: Heightened Senses gives defense to s/l/f/c/e/ne - pretty much everything except psi. It's very important to WP, and very much worth slotting. As for Taunt, in PvE it's autohit so accuracy enhancers are wasted. In PvP, it's a completely different story. (You may want to invest in a Taunt/Rech IO to get a little bit of both.)

Short version: the proc would be permanent.

Long version: Passive powers pulse every 10s and last 10.25s (on average, I'm sure there are corner cases). This means that procs such as Numinas will go off every 10 or 20 seconds. (I say 10 or 20 seconds because procs in powers like this can only go off once every 10 seconds, so I'm not sure if the effect would be calculated before or after the 10s suppression in something that fires in exactly 10s.) Since that's well before the 120s duration is up, it constantly gets refreshed and never expires.

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Being able to create different builds is one of the pros of this game, IOs and the WP set. I have a pretty stout Def build on my brute (can't remember the numbers offhand). I think WP lends itself to be good at either def or res.

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I do use Zephyr sets on my CJ and SS as well

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That would make HS's defense even more effective.

For example, going from 0% def to 10% def would allow you to survive 25% more damage. Going from 10% def to 20% def would allow you to survive 33% more damage than with 10% (or 66.67% more than having no defense at all). (Unslotted HS is 9.75%, or roughly 10%.)

Another example, going from 0% def to 15% def would allow you to survive ~42.857% more damage. Going from 15% def to 30% def would allow you to take 75% more damage than with 15% (or 150% more than with 0%). (Slotted, HS gives 15.21% def, or roughly 15%.)

Note: HS gives far less def vs s/l, the above is to the exotics (f/c/e/ne).

As your defense base increases, each additional point of def starts having a larger and larger impact on your survivability.

I'm not saying you have to change your build or anything, mind you. If you're having fun and it works for you, then you're fine. I'm just explaining why HS isn't worthless - especially for min/maxed builds. So I hope you don't take this as me attacking you or your build, it's not my intent.

[edit: Oh, sorry for the slight thread-jack.]

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I think WP lends itself to be good at either def or res.

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WP benefits from more of either, but is best with more of both. Extra res/def amplifies your regeneration, allowing you to take more sustained damage while simultaneously stabilizing it against burst damage.

Granted my WP experience comes from a Tank, I'll say the difference between low/moderate def and high def is night and day. I can't see myself ever building WP to skip HS. (Even if HS's value seems low by itself, the stacking potential it allows is very important to maximize survivability.)

Corrected the above post.

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Thank you Sarrate

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Hold on, I didn't see you took Aid Self, I have to account for that, give me a second.

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Can you run a WP tank throught the sheet?

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Since I did my WP Tank, I'll just substitute your numbers over mine, one moment:

1 mob w/o SoW averaged in - 3013
10 mob w/o SoW averaged in - 4153

1 mob w/SoW averaged in - 3520
10 mob w/SoW averaged in - 4852

[edit: Fixed numbers to include Aid Self.]

If you're buying a specific IO, then yes, you can choose the level. If you do a random roll, then you get either get an IO of your level or (if you're above the lvl cap of that set) the maximum level of the IO.

(Btw, I believe the Numina +Regen/Recov is 250 merits, not 200.)

WP/Fire Tank (planned build, I'm within 10-15 IOs from completion, one of which being the PvP +3% def IO, though)

Modifying "Jack NoMind" at cell A343 got me a score of 2200 with 1 mob in RttC, 3565 with 10 mobs. (This doesn't factor in SoW)
Modifying "Bladeslinger" at cell A277 got me a score of 2632 with 1 mob in RttC, 4264 with 10 mobs. (This includes SoW)
(I modified entries that looked close to mine, since I wasn't entirely sure how to add one of my own from scratch.)

At first, I was a little disappointed with my 1 mob rating compared to Infiniti's Bladeslinger (score 2832), but I decided to reverse engineer his regen rate of 107 determining it to be either a) counting fully saturated RttC (1070% regen at the hp cap) or b) Aid Self (it's not indicated anywhere, but it's a possibility).

Much happier now.


[edit: Hmm, I didn't factor in RttC's tohit debuff either for my s/l def which would soft cap me against up to +2s.]

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ClawsandEffect, how come some people won't post their build? I'm not trying to change anybody's mind or anything. Just asking because of pure curiosity.

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I generally don't post exact builds unless I'm asking for advice (for ATs I don't have much experience with). I have posted them, but it's more of a rarity.

There are two main reasons I keep builds to myself:

*) If people are asking for advice, I don't think that just giving them a build is very helpful. I'd rather spend the time to teach people to build their own builds. It makes them more independent and knowledgeable players as a result. Also, it allows them to make builds that more suit their needs, rather than mine.

*) I view builds somewhat how I view costumes - they define my characters. I don't want to see carbon copies of my build out there. (As I alluded to above, they are built for me and my playstyle, so they wouldn't necessarily work for everyone else.)

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I can dream can't I?

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No - I eat dreams, and yours are next on the menu. Nom nom nom.

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I was told a couple of years ago by Castle (or Geko? forget which) that there was no agro list in CoH. So there is no threat level excluding damage, effects and proximity.

This holds true with some basic tests ... two blasters ... one hits the mob for 100 pts of damage, the mob turns to the blaster to attack. The other blaster hits the mob for 1 pt of damage, the mob turns to attack that blaster. In MMOs with an agro list (pretty much every other major MMO I've played) this would not occur as your "threat" level is based on a number based scale (i.e. in other games 100 pts of damage would equal 100 threat, while 1 pt of damage would equal 1 threat ... thus the mob wouldn't turn away from the first blaster in another MMO).

Additionally Taunt works differently in CoH then in most other MMOs. In other MMOs the taunt mechanic adds to the taunter's number on the threat scale. For instance in EverQuest, a Warrior's taunt adds a predefined number to the Warrior's current threat level. If the total of that comes in below the highest threat, then the taunt doesn't succeed in pulling the mob away from what it is currently agro'd on.

In WoW the taunt mechanic takes the currently highest threat and adds +1 to it, giving the taunter automatic agro. If the taunter's agro falls below the top spot after that, the mob turns away to the new highest threat.

In CoH Taunt acts like a control. When you taunt a mob, it can attack no other character except the taunter while the taunts duration runs. This includes if another person taunts right after you. However both taunts exist on the mob. Once yours ends, the mob will turn to the person who next taunted and be stuck on that person until the remainder of that taunt's duration fades.

In your example it sounds like you hit some buggy pathing and then your taunt's duration ended. You were out of agro range at that point, so the mob returned to its spawn point.

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Your information is outdated. Check out this post by Castle (it has since been purged from the boards here) to see that Taunt isn't a 100% override, it's a gigantic threat modifier. (Read all the posts archived there about "Taunt: How it works," they're pretty enlightening and match identically to everything I've seen and tested in game.)

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Sarrate: You can pull a mob all across a zone if you keep damaging it (thus resetting its tether). If you hit a mob once and run across the zone it eventually gives up (at its tether range) and returns to its spawn (or despawns entirely). So yes there is a maximum tether ... it just can be reset by periodically re-agroing the mob.

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I specifically said "if you keep its attention," implying tagging it every so often. When you said 'tether,' it seemed to me like you were describing a hard limit on how far you could pull mobs away from their spawn point.

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Also on another note, your analysis of how I was pulling is wrong. I don't have to hit a single mob to bring the whole pack with me ... proximity agro and the taunt aura being run (in my case, Invince) pretty much do the work for me (again, tether range being an issue here). I assume your 5-7 number was just taking into account the punchvoke effect which isn't really the mechanic at work here (although can add to it). I just can't pass up the opportunity to KO Blow a mob who has it coming

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Here is why I said 5-7 mobs:

*) I've established only 17 mobs can be actively trying to attack you at any one time.
*) From my previous test with the pistol, damaging a mob will automatically put it on your aggro list and push something else off. (Presumably to prevent someone from herding weak mobs and killing a tougher one without risk of reprisal.)
*) If you run into spawn2 and use Foot Stomp, that takes up 10 mobs in on your aggro list, only leaving room for 7 more. This is where the 7 comes from. (If your Footstomp hits less mobs, then it would allow for mob from spawn1 to keep chasing you.)
*) The low end of my guess was likely wrong, I said 5 to account for the 5 hit by KO Blow's gauntlet, however, it's possible that Invincibility's longer duration and more recent interactions with spawn2 would push the mobs from spawn1 off the list (sans for the mob you hit with KO Blow).

I do not, however, know specifics of what actions/conditions will cause mobs to be added / dropped from the active 17 mob aggro cap.

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I think one thing that is being overlooked is the following possibility:

Yes, you may switch sides, but ONLY WITH CHARACTERS CREATED WITH THE NEW RELEASE.

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I overlooked it because it's a stupid possibility.

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Agreed, it also doesn't make any sense. The main reason I could see the devs only allowing new characters to choose one side or another is to keep the markets from contaminating each other. In other words, you can make a Villain Scrapper, but since he started on the Villain side, he wouldn't have brought anything over from Hero side.

In the FAQ they posted, it has been stated that you're not limited to only switching sides once. This would allow, even new character, to 'cross pollinate' the markets circumventing the only real reason not to allow current characters to switch sides.

I'm pretty confident they'll allow current characters to switch.

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Sarrate: Sigh ... yay for internet communications.

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Been there, done that. Converse on the Internet and it will happen to anyone.

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1) Whether the mobs are all attacking me or not, I can physically herd a bunch of mobs together (over 16) *if* the mob packs are close enough together, and then fight them all down.

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If you're solo, this is impossible (unless you stand right on top of another group and you don't lose aggro on any of the previous mobs). If you're on a team, those over the aggro cap (which is 17, not 16) won't be following you, rather, your teammates. (More on this in a second.)

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3) I said to do the samething in a group, the group has to work together (this would be different example). Yes you won't hold agro on all the mobs at the sametime BUT an active tank can aborb the alpha, after which the group does its thing. By the time the second alpha (beta?) comes up, there are tons less mobs (still might be more then the 16 cap though) and the active tank will have rounded said mobs up the same way.

To do this and to be precise (on my Inv Tanker): I run into a pack and KO Blow the center mob (this punchvokes or at the very least proximity agros the nearby mobs) absorbing that packs alpha. I then move to the next pack and Footstomp (this maxes my agro cap (assuming large packs of 10-15 mobs)). The punchvoke has worn off the prior mobs but they still follow due to proximity at this point (they are not past their tether). I Taunt the next pack over to me (corner pulling if necessary to pack em all in). This gives me 3 packs of 10-15 per pack (30-45 mobs) tightly packed. THEN my group goes to work.

If you want, I'd be glad to show it to you in action.

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Okay, I'm going to try my best to illustrate my problem with this explaination. No offense if this is known to you - I want to be perfectly clear.

Last night I ran off to monkey island in PI and recorded a cohdemo to explain what is going on. Before I started recording, I rounded up exactly 17 monkies (the cap) - you can double check these two screenshots to verify there are indeed 17 (screenshot 1, screenshot 2). After this point, I started taunting monkies at range. They did not follow me, run towards me, or even react, despite being well within their 'tether.'

Once I verified that the additional monkies would not follow me, I killed exactly one monkey. Immediately after, exactly one monkey shot a psi blast at me, then closed to melee range. I did this about 5-6 times with identical results each time.

What if I deal damage to extra mobs? I moved my herd of 17 monkies slightly to find a new spawn. I used a crafted Pistol (to ensure I didn't kill them) and shot one, then moved backwards slightly (20ft, maybe). The monkey I shot chased me, but something interesting happened - one of the monkies that was previously attacking me returned to its spawn point. It didn't follow me. I proceeded to kill the monkey I just aggroed resulting in the deserting monkie to immediately reaggro and close to melee. Rinse and repeat another 2-4 times. To verify I still had 17 mobs by the end of the demo, check this screenshot. (Ignore the laughable regen, that's my second build which is only ~70% complete. Unslotted RttC, hah!)

If you were forward pulling (KO Blow in spawn1, move to spawn2 and FS) you'd only be bringing 5-7 mobs from spawn1 to spawn2, the rest would lose intrest in you and move back to their spawn point. If you group was following with you (ie: group participation) the rest of spawn1 was following your team, not you.

In my opinion, if you're not being attacked by all the mobs, then I don't consider it 'tanking.' You may be eating the alpha and facilitating the herding of multiple, but you're not 'tanking' them. In my opinion, once you hit the aggro cap, there's no point in herding up more mobs. The highest target cap for AoEs is 16, so it's not like your team is killing any faster than if there were 50. (You're probably killing slower since your damage would be more spread out, giving mobs more time to regen.) Once you hit the aggro cap, I think it makes much more sense to round up one spawn, have the team wipe them out then proceed to the next. (Depending on what the team can handle, I'll leave before the spawn is dead to round up the next spawn, so the team catches up and nukes that one.)


[edit: Oh, I should mention, there is no maximum "tether," if you keep a mobs attention, he'll follow you all the way across a zone. I've personally pulled Eochai halfway across zones before in multiple zones (Kings, Steel, Talos, and Creys Folly). Mobs that turn away and return to their spawn point aren't doing so because they're beyond any tether, it's because you hit the aggro cap and they were pushed off.]

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You know for people who post as much as you guys do you really ought to take the time to read before replying.

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That's a pretty insulting comment to throw around lightly. I did ask for clarification on what you meant by the aggro cap being "mislabeled." I then went on to clarify my stance. This is what you responded with, not very helpful to me.

[edit: For the record, I'm not personally offended, but I read that and thought, "Wait, what? Really?"]

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Did I not say solo tanked 50 mobs?

BTW you're wrong ... there are ways to keep dozens of mobs entertained as a Tanker in a group. And now this may come as a shocker ... if you and your group work together at it.

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No more than 17 mobs will try to attack you at any given time. Run to monkey island in PI and show me 18 or more trying to attack you at once. I'll go make a demo showing you it cannot be done if need be.

The only possible thing I can imagine you mean by this is hitting a group with an aoe crowd control (Fault or Ice Patch) then moving on to the next mobs. I don't classify that as tanking over 17 mobs for two reasons:

1) If the CCed mobs are currently counted against your aggro limit, you cannot hold attention of the CCed mobs and an additional 17, it would be 17 minus the CCed mobs.
2) If the CCed mobs aren't currently counted against your aggro limit, they'll attack whoever they want as soon as they can. (I don't believe for a second that you could launch another AOE control on the exact same mobs you just used it on, especially against the 50 targets you tout.)

Mobs will get lose and they will attack other people. I would not call that tanking 30-50 mobs.


(Btw, I think it's interesting you solo tank (emphasis yours), but require team participation in order for it to work. Isn't that... the opposite of solo?)

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and they still lack ANY team buffs, and they still wont be doing corruptor/blaster levels of dmg.


[/ QUOTE ] You missed the part where He Said damage buff. They will be getting blaster level damage. Hell their mods will be .95 for range and 1.25 for melee. Thats hella good enough for me.

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it's a nerf to level 50 doms

https://boards.cityofheroes.com/showflat...=0&fpart=54

there's math in the thread behind it.

not a big nerf mind you, but it does make one desire perma-dom less and in fact may no longer need to perma-dom at all.

still, that dom STILL isnt bringing anything to the table that isnt done better by a controller or blaster. in fact, fault or footstomp offer enough soft control for most things that even a controller isnt necessary - unless you couldnt find an empathy or kin defender.

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The higher base damage is a straight up buff.

Dominators will deal more damage post buff than a Dominator under Domination. The only time it is a nerf is when the Dominator is operating with stacked Domination, which is not the norm. (Heck, even perma-Dom is expensive, let alone stacked.) A Dominator using damage buffs (Aim, FE, Soul Drain) or being buffed (Forge, Painbringer, Fulcrum, etc) is better off.

Allow me to demonstrate:

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<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>Difference @ lvl 50
Bonesmasher 134.07 185.37 224.31 Assuming 96% increase from Enhancements
Power Bolt 70.85 97.96 103.55 Assuming 96% increase from Enhancements </pre><hr />

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Those numbers assume 96% dmg enhancement and Domination where noted.

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre> Base
Now Proposed
Bonesmasher 68.4 114.44
Power Bolt 36.15 52.83</pre><hr />

Now for the kicker, a comparison of old damage compared to the new with variable outside +dmg:

<font class="small">Code:[/color]<hr /><pre>
+dmg% BS (now)PB (now) BS (dom2) PB (dom2) BS (prop) PB (prop)
0% 185.36 97.97 236.66 125.08 224.3 103.55
25% 202.46 107 253.76 134.12 252.91 116.75
50% 219.56 116.04 270.86 143.15 281.52 129.96
75% 236.66 125.08 273.6 144.6 310.13 143.17
100% 253.76 134.12 273.6 144.6 338.74 156.38
125% 270.86 143.15 273.6 144.6 367.35 169.58
150% 273.6 144.6 273.6 144.6 395.96 182.79
175% 273.6 144.6 273.6 144.6 424.57 196
200% 273.6 144.6 273.6 144.6 453.18 209.21
225% 273.6 144.6 273.6 144.6 457.76 211.32</pre><hr />
now = Current slotted + Dom
dom2 = Current slotted + Dom stacked
prop = Proposed

I've highlighted when the proposed powers are better off with outside +dmg. With single dom, proposed is always better. At +25% dmg (a small red) proposed is better for melee. At +100% dmg, proposed is always better. Also check out their damage output when they damage cap, much higher.

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I don't have the 40m+ for a respec.

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Have you done any of the Terra Volta Respec Trials? You can get up to three free respecs that way.

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For soloing/small groups CE is fairly worthless given the endurance it costs to run pre-Stamina. In large groups CE will just get the Tanker killed repeatedly.

Taunt auras aren't really necessary until you start taking big groups *when* you're capable of taking big groups. I'm of the opinion that they're not necessary at all for a decent Tanker but all Tanker primaries have some taunt aura built into it somewhere.

BTW at L31 my Ice Tanker still doesn't run CE (respecced out of it at L22) and holds agro just fine in full groups.

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My experience with Ice is a lot different, however I leveled her through the teens back in I6 - before the critter accuracy change, when up level/rank mobs had tohit buffs. This really crushed the effectiveness of low amounts of defense. I believe there were points I'd run CE instead of FA/GA because of this. If you're able to stand the aggro, then running CE will allow you to do it better due to its debuffs.

I won't argue that Tankers are squishier at low levels, but if I want to tank (good group, or whatever) I'd rather not depend on guantlet - since it's especially flakey pre-20. (I also tend to put off Taunt until the early/mid twenties.)

(I do spend a lot of time soloing low level Tanks because they don't perform on teams up to my standards.)

I like CE, and I would never put it off that late. I have a feeling we'll have to just agree to disagree.

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Let me rephrase ...

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I disagree with your thoughts on CE, and I think TP Foe is a stinky power, but otherwise, fair thoughts.

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Seriously? You just quoted the agro cap to me? You can still literally pull as many as you like if they are within their tether range. You can't have more then 16 *taunted* (since there isn't an actual agro list in CoH the "agro cap" is slightly mislabled).

I've solo tanked upwards of 50 mobs in the ITF all the time after the ITF is done. This included the EBs and Bosses in the canyon.

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What do you mean by "taunt cap"? Are you saying that you can have 30 mobs attacking you at one time, but cannot keep that many taunted (ie: they'll peel as soon as anybody sneezes)? If you are, you're mistaken. Someone brought up the aggro cap a couple months ago and I tested it. That screenshot has 18 rikti monkies, 17 around me and one taunted at range - solo. The 18th would not attack me. After I killed one, the 18th turned and attacked me.

At any given time, you cannot have more than 17 mobs attacking you at once. If you lose aggro on something (say to another player) then extra mobs will be able to fill that back to 17, but never any higher. If you can prove me incorrect (screenshot or preferably a demo), please do.

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Also most of these people won't have skads of infuence, especially while levelling up, so I tend to stay away from IO discussions here as a means for making a Tanker combo do something it doesn't normally do well.

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Apart for my comment about Granite, I was I spoke of being free of IOs, too.

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But I *did* state that with IOs, you can make every Tanker sing and dance (even Stoners).

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I read your post, but couldn't reply immediately, so I did forget that intermediate paragraph stating such. Mea culpa.