Sarrate

That should be "Victory Forum", sir!

Negative sir, just knockdown and damage: [Pets_Lightning_Rod]

(Against, assuming an identical transfer.)

You two, stop making my 1680x1050 feel inadequate.

Tenebrous Tentacles doesn't gives its targets knockback protection like Mu Mastery's does. They would be immobilized, but would still be scattered.

Assuming, of course, Lightning Clap (Thunder Clap is from Storm) is ported over identically.

I was on my Fire/Stone Tank a few nights ago and she has ~113 or ~115 max end, but the proc still only reported giving 10 back in the healing channel. That could be a display error, though.

The only way to concretely test it that I can think of is to have your recovery floored while detoggled, then watch the Combat Attributes to see how much end it gets when it fires.

I've actually considered this in the past, but there are several snags that kept rearing their face to me.

If the debuff is too weak, it will be of questionable value. If made too strong it still wouldn't stack (since one would flatline everything's regen) except against AVs, where other ATs would be better anyways. I considered making it a smaller, unresistible regen debuff, but that means it would probably be small enough not to be noticeable against anything except AVs. It would be a huge boon to soloing AVs, but that wouldn't be the point of it.

I like the idea behind it and that it would be a static dps boost instead of amplifying all of the Tanker's damage (as +dmg would do)... but I'm not sure it would help Tankers where they need it. I'll have to think about it some more.


[edit: How the debuff is applied isn't simple, either. Debuffs can be set to not stack from the same power from the same user, but afaik not a single debuff from the same caster. If they make the debuff a short duration, but stackable (like Defiance) then it would benefit quick animating sets more than slow ones. If they want to make it just long enough for a Tanker to keep 1 on (say a 2.5 to 3.5s duration), then if the Tanker stops attacking for any reason (Taunt, BU, etc) the debuff would fall off. Considering the efficiency issues of Tankers, that's pretty harsh.]

A low level Rad Defender can run Rad Infection and Enervating Field indefinitely as soon as they get them without end reduc and still gain end. (This is while AM is down to boot.) What would drain their endurance? Attacking, offense.

Master Minds are a quirky beast because they can, if they so choose, get their damage for free by letting their pets do all their damage for them. They don't have to raise a finger and could save all their endurance for mitigation or summoning pets. I know I can't play that passively, but they can.

At any rate, this has relevance to how end management relates to Tankers, how? If you want to go down this line, I may as well say Assault is awesome because Master Minds have up to 6 pets benefiting from it.

A character, AT, set, etc, fails for me when I'm not having fun. Blasters fail to me because of their frailty and high mortality rate. Controllers (in general) fail to me because I crave direct damage attacks - I'd rather play a Defender. Brutes, thus far, have failed to me because I dislike the Fury mechanic.

Yes, that is my opinion and nothing more. Likewise what you're writing is your opinion. So long as you recognize it as such. Of course, an opinion alone isn't enough justification for a change.

Why, exactly, do you play Tankers and try to get Castle to revisit them if you don't like them? As mentioned before, that is ironic and hypocritical.

However, for the sake of discussion, I rarely play Blasters because I don't enjoy them. I play characters that I get joy and satisfaction from playing. I will not play characters I don't enjoy or am not in the mood to play. I have an Ill/Therm Controller idling at 44 or so. It wouldn't be too hard to push her to 50, but why bother if it's not fun? I also rarely visit the Blaster forum at all except for when a dev posts there, there is an interesting topic title from the forum list, or I'm bored.

I absolutely agree. I think making Invuln Brute/Scrappers wait until lvl28 for Invincibility is really lame - it's been a big gripe of mine for a while. It could be a turn off for some people to wait that long before your set comes into its own.

Having said that, I know that changing the level powers open is considered a last resort, so I don't really see it happening.

Negative, damage resistance resists damage debuffs. By lowering the damage resistance of the mobs, they resist damage debuffs less, making them more effective.

Personally, I like this Dev Digest substitute better...


[edit: Oh what the hell, let's go for the gold with Twitter, too.]

Recharge can boost both, yes, but it always boosts attacks. Also, Regen aside, I wouldn't say it increases survivability anywhere near the level it increases damage. (Speaking of Regen, recharge isn't even enough because it doesn't improve Regen's weakness, so people heavily layer it with defense, too.) Something like perma DP is nice, but you will not convince me it has the same impact as it does on attacks. (I say this because one of my high Recharge Tanks is Fire/Stone - a set which would benefit greatly from recharge due to Healing Flames.)

Endurance management doesn't improve survivability one bit. You could load up a Tank with Tough, Weave, Maneuvers, Combat Jumping, and Aid Self (note, no Fitness) and an SO of end reduc in each. You couldn't do much besides just sit there and Taunt / heal, but your mitigation wouldn't care at all. No, end management is an offensive boost.

As for Accuracy, Super Strength being the one of the few sets that operate like that. The other would be Dual Blades due to Blinding Feint. All the rest? No large, constant tohit buffs. I can get close to, or reach, 95% tohit chance with attacks against +4s. That's very helpful, to say the least.

You can say that, but then I'd say "it depends." Could a Fire/EM Blaster do it? Absolutely. How about an Elec/Devices? Errr, no way. On the same token, an Invuln/DM couldn't do it, but I have no doubt a Fire/Fire, Shield/Fire, or Shield/SS could. The key to note that the thing making a difference here is the sets chosen, not the archetype.

Here is the wrinkle, as I said before, the Blaster may get into a situation where they need to eat 3 purples to stay alive. A Tanker will never be in a situation where they must eat 3 reds or fail. I take that back, there are a very select few instances I could see it happening (like fighting Biff in AE, a Villain only EB/AV), but not even anywhere close to as often. (Btw, a Tanker eating 3 reds would have a damage mod of ~1.107, that's essentially a Blaster's damage mod without Defiance.)

I'd say it helped, but I don't think it's as earth shattering of an improvement in my experience. Blasters can still die very easily against adds, they can still go from half health to dead in the blink of an eye, mezzes can still require them to eat breakfrees or die.

That's my experience. I wager the higher damage mod and the +dmg per attack gave a similar damage boost. Of course, it'd be impossible to decide by datamining which helped more.


I brought up IOs in the first place because Johnny mentioned them only as offering mitigation, not damage. I say that's bogus.

You're painting an extremely one sided picture here. You cannot count IO sets as offering mitigation without also counting them as offense. IOs have had a huge impact on Tanker damage output; it's night and day.

1. Recharge is everywhere with IOs. I'm not just talking about generous recharge bonuses, but actual enhancement value itself. It's very easy to cram 8-9 SOs worth of enhancement into a power. For example, I have Greater Fire Sword slotted with four lvl33 Kin Combats and the lvl50 Mako triple/quad. That gives it 62.19% acc, 95.57% dmg, and 79.12% end/rech. Too expensive? Okay, five lvl35 Crushing Impact (all but dmg/end) and a generic lvl50 end reduc IO. That's 59.64% acc, 95.14% dmg, 78.19% end reduc, and 59.64% rech.
   [edit: Change the dmg/rech for dmg/end and the lvl50 end reduc for a lvl50 rech and the numbers will be the same except for 78.19% rech and 59.64% end reduc. I was just copying the st slotting from my Fire/Stone Tank.]
2. Endurance management is also through the roof. This counts extra recovery and end reduction (such as the enhancement value mentioned above). Why mention this as a damage boost? Because a Tanker that doesn't run out of endurance can deal a lot more damage than one that does. Heck, the difference between having Stamina and not should be a good example of that. It's why many people consider it mandatory, even on sets like WP or Ice.
3. Damage procs should not be ignored as an option, either. I'm not personally a big fan of them, but their effect over time (such as hard targets) is undeniable, especially some of the expensive procs like those in purple sets.

That's not even mentioning things accuracy/tohit boosting effects, either. In the general case this may not be too important, but fighting high def mobs (Rikti Drones), ones with tohit debuffs (Death Mages), or up level mobs shows how important it is.

Mix all that together and you can make some absolutely frightening characters, offense wise. For all the Tanks I've invested in IOs (even very minimally like my Ice/SS with only 4 sets of CI) I cannot understate the improvement over their baseline. It's almost like playing a whole new character.

Note: I'm not trying to discount how much mitigation you can get with IOs, I'm well aware of the silliness you can do with IOs in that regard. However, you are vastly downplaying how much offense you get from IOs.

To use your own words, "says you." (I don't say this as an insult or anything, mind you. If you took it as such, then it's possible SpittingTrashcan did as well.)

For me, death is far more frustrating that the slower kill speed. Death can cost me zoning time (twice), travel time, and the frustration of dying in the first place. My biggest problem with Blasters is not always just dying, either. Rather, dying because I missed something, the foe had stupid high burst damage, or I was out of inspirations. I hate surprise deaths like no other as much as I hate being chained to my inspiration tray. I just recently pulled out my lvl33ish Ice/MM Blaster for a few missions. After using the last of my inspirations to kill a Freak Tank, he rezzed and promply killed me. I logged out after that, don't think I even finished the mission.

A Tank killing slower? I'll take that any day because I know I'll be able to get the job done, even if I don't have a blue or red. I can't say the same for Blasters. That is my opinion. I'm sure Blaster players would disagree with me.

This is just a clarification / double check, but you know that Defiance isn't mez protection, right? All it allows them to do is use 3 powers while mezzed (t1/t2 primary powers, t1 secondary power). Blasters still can't move, toggles still suppress, and offensive toggles still shut off. It's a nice perk, but most certainly not true mez protection by any stretch of the imagination.

If you want another annoying wrinkle to the door problem, it doesn't even effect everyone equally. I've commented on vent about a door being bugged** only to have a couple people remark "the doors are open on my end."

That boggled my mind pretty good.


** The specific door was in the LRSF right before you fight the Vindicators (Mynx, Malaise, Luminary, Swan, and Valkyrie). That'd be the fourth mission, iirc.

Neutrino Bolt has the fastest recharge (1.5s) and tied for fastest activation (1s). (There are a lot of 1s activation t1s due to the balance done for Defiance.)

Second place for recharge is Flares (2.18s).

Sure [Chain Induction] can, unless you were talking about the chained parts and not the initial shock. In that case, you'd be correct. I don't think setting those powers up to crit would be hard, just make them summon a new pseudo pet with the crit baked in.

Of course, for Stalkers LR has the added benefit of not breaking Hide, so that may be their compensation for the crit...

Taunt alone won't do the trick, you need to deal damage in order to peel mobs off. I've noticed this every time I tested the aggro cap. Go to monkey island in PI and herd up 17 mobs and try to Taunt more - they will not come to you. Use a low damage ranged attack (like the crumby origin attack) and they'll suddenly be able to aggro onto you. (This is also when you'll lose one that was previously on you.) My suspicion is this is to prevent aggro capping youself (to say minions) then attacking a much harder target (EB/AV) without them being able to attack back.

Now, on a team it's possible that a mob dies and the fresh mob you Taunted will come to you, but it's not a guarantee (if mobs are taking a while to be put down or whatever).

Ahah! That would be the biggest problem I think you're seeing. Greens offer very little by way of survivability to WP. There are a couple reasons for this. First off, WP relies heavily on regen for survival.

If you're taking more damage than you're regenerating, you will die eventually. Greens offer a temporary relief, but not much. This is why purples (or oranges against Romans) are so useful. Instead of delaying the inevitable, they actually improve your effective regen. If you regen, say, 100 hp/sec and have 25% def, you can absorb ~200 dmg/sec without losing life. If you eat a purple and go up to 37.5% def, that number jumps to 400 dmg/sec. Much better!

Secondly, greens give a static health boost. Since WP higher hp thanks to HPT, a green won't give as much as you'd expect. Suppose a normal Tank has 1000 hp, a small green would give him 250 health. A WP Tank (with unslotted HPT) has 1200 hp, but a green is still only giving him 250 health. Yuck!

That said, I normally keep 2-3 greens/blues for emergencies (since WP doesn't have a self heal), but almost everything else becomes purples.

As for the tohit debuffs, yeah they're a pain in the butt. The reason I didn't list them previously is because they decrease your damage output, but shouldn't make a big dent in your survivability like Arachnos do. Since you were talking about teaming, I figured it was a non-issue. Soloing is a completely different issue. (FA should really help against them, but be warned it costs a lot of end. Turn it on, get business done, turn it off.)

Ahhh yes, their end drain. I honestly haven't been on a team tanking Carnies in ages, so I completely forgot about it. (Solo my build has enough recovery that it's pretty trivial unless I'm herding/AoEing them down.) The only thing I can suggest is to take is easy on the attacks and to keep a healthy reserve of end as a buffer against the drains.

Oh, against the Ring Mistresses, if you see them ahead of time, eat a purple or two to hit 45% ne defense, that will help you avoid the debuff. (I monitor my regen/recovery as well, so if it hits, I can see when my recov goes positive again.)

From a survivability stand point, the build is pretty solid. I'd swap the res in HPT for health (higher max hp will help you more than the small res will) and taking Fast Healing sooner. Not sure what I'd suggest pushing back, though.

Your attacks are a little light on damage enhancement which will hurt when soloing, but should be decent for teams. I'll defer to someone with more EM experience for that though. (I normally slot 2 acc/3 dmg/1 end with SOs. It's slower killing, but more end efficient. Fewer attacks necessary to kill and all that.)

--edit to add--
I wouldn't suggest Presence. Tough/Weave will help more due to the way res/def stacking works mechanically. Remember what I said above about how much of an impact a single purple had? Same idea. The best part about Tough/Weave is that they will help against tougher foes like EBs/AVs/GMs, Presence won't help a bit.

If you search the Archetypes & Powers section for "energize" you'll see a lot of threads about it. Someone logged onto Test and wrote the following (before Test was locked down to just I16 testers):

Thread from the Scrapper Forum
Thread from the Tanker Forum
Thread from the Brute Forum (Alternate)
Thread from the Stalker Forum

As always for things on Test, it's subject to change.

Correction to the cottage rule: It's not what was expected, it's what the power actually does now.

Ex:
The cottage rule states if Build Up is currently a dmg/tohit buff, it shouldn't build a cottage tomorrow.

The cottage rule does not state that a power named Build Up that currently builds a cottage (despite people expecting a tohit/dmg buff) should be changed to a tohit/dmg buff.


So, to apply that to Tankers, it means that Tankers being high def and medium offense should stay that way (and not be changed into Blasters or something).

It does not imply that people expecting Tankers to be X is reason for them to be changed to that.

Well, I manually constructed that quote block. I found the post, the post number, and plugged it in. Looked fine in the preview, but I was just being doubly careful.


There are two ways to look at their over/under performing metric:

1. Relative performance. In other words, how different sets/ATs compare to one another. So, if they improve everyone's performance except one, that one will be at risk of under performing.
2. Absolute performance. In this case, they have a static set of performance metrics they're aiming for. So, if they're looking for performance between X and Y, Tankers could be said to be averaging at Y+1.

I don't know which model accurately depicts Castle's methodology, however. I mention this because if he does use the second model (which seems to make sense to me, model 1 would be very vulnerable to power creep), just because other ATs got boosted doesn't immediately mean Tankers are under performing and need buffs.