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I can't do as much verifying as I normally do (posting from my iPhone), but I believe that AAO is one of the most powerful taunt auras in the game (beaten only by Chilling Embrace). Consider that AAO has a 1s pulse time (vs EF's 2s), longer duration of ~16.875s (vs EF's 13.5s), and has a dmg debuff as well. Couple that with the fact that the Scrapper inherently does more damage than Tanks and it is very easy for me to see a Shield Scrapper out threat a Tank. Heck, I knew something was wrong with the dev's old explanation of how threat worked because my Invuln Scrapper would routinely out threat Invuln Tanks who didn't Taunt, and that's with both charaters having the same aura.
If you want to hold aggro on AVs over a Scrapper with a Taunt aura, you pretty much have to take Taunt and use it liberally. (If the Scrapper starts attacking first, or somehow steals aggro from you, keep in mind it may take more than one Taunt to regain aggro.) Personally, since playing a WP Tank with a 5 slotted Taunt, I don't think that I could play without it so well slotted anymore - even with a better aura. Taunt aura Scrappers are nowhere near as rare as they used to be (not to mention teaming with Brutes) and being able to routinely hold aggro over them is invaluable.
[edit: Oh, and when I was playing my Invuln Scrapper I would steal aggro mod fight, even if the Tank initiated combat. If they didn't Taunt, I would just build more threat over time than a Tank could.] -
Quote:Well, their damage doesn't necessarily have to be changed, as mentioned Castle could also tweak their rech or radius, too.By the numbers, all three should be doing 1.18 damage, but I don't know if the secondary effects are supposed to affect damage output.
Both Whirling Hands and Whirling Mace have a 30% chance of Mag 2 Stun where Whirling Axe has 50% chance of KD.
Why WH and WM do different damage I can't figure out.
As for why WH and WM do different damage, not sure. I wish I could view previous versions of CoD. I'd be curious to know whether Castle buffed WM during the Mace buff period, or if WM has always done 1.12 scale damage. If it's the latter, I have no idea why only WM deals more damage. -
Quote:Whirling HandsNot that I would mind a buff to Whirling Hands, but doesn't Whirling Axe have exactly the same dam/end/rech/radius and lower DPA to boot?
2.5s act
1 dmg
14 rech
13 end
8ft radius
Whirling Axe
2.67s act
1 dmg
14 rech
13 end
8ft radius
Whirling Mace
2.67 act
1.12 dmg
14 rech
13 end
8ft radius
Yep. Whirling Mace is the best of the lot (incl DPA), but it's still a smidge underpowered based on what the formula says it should be. -
Quote:Emphasis mine.Chyll: The reason why some people say go Super Strength for damage is that the power-set comes with Rage which boosts damage. However, what a lot of Super Strength tankers overlook is that Super Strength Needs the Rage power in order to deliver the same punch as other tank types.
This statement isn't true on a per power basis. Some might work out that way, but that's because of their recharge - not any inherent flaw with SS. Let's look at your examples:
Quote:E.G. : First primary attack : Melee
Jab @ lvl 1 = 6.5 damage
Jab @ lvl 25 = 18.68 damage
Jab @ lvl 50 = 30.25 damage
Scorch @ lvl 1 = 8.06 damage + 3 x .96
Scorch @ lvl 25 = 23.07 damage + 3 x 2.75
Scorch @ lvl 50 = 37.37 damage + 3 x 4.45
Bash @ lvl 1 = 9.60 damage
Bash @ lvl 25 = 27.47 damage
Bash @ lvl 50 = 44.49 damage
Punch @lvl50 - 44.49 dmg (4s rech)
Bash @lvl50 - 44.49 dmg (4s rech)
Stone Fist @lvl50 - 44.49 dmg (4s rech)
Energy Punch @lvl50 - 44.49 dmg (4s rech)
Haymaker @lvl50 - 72.96 dmg (8s rech)
Pulverize @lvl50 - 72.96 dmg (8s rech)
Stone Mallet @lvl50 - 72.96 dmg (8s rech)
Bone Smasher @lvl50 - 72.96 dmg (8s rech)
KO Blow @lvl50 - 158.38 dmg (20s rech)
Seismic Smash @lvl50 - 158.38 dmg (20s rech)
Total Focus @lvl50 - 158.38 dmg (20s rech)
Quote:E.G. : Final PBAOE attack
Foot Stomp @ lvl 38 = 55.78 damage
Foot Stomp @ lvl 50 = 63.17
Fire Sword Circle @ lvl 28 = 54.24 (avg) damage
Fire Sword Circle @ lvl 38 = 70.17 (avg) damage
Fire Sword Circle @ lvl 50 = 79.46 (avg) damage
Crowd Control @ lvl 38 = 63.24 damage
Crowd Control @ lvl 50 = 71.63 damage
Foot Stomp @lvl50 - 63.17 dmg (20s rech, 15ft radius)
Frozen Aura @lvl50 - 63.17 dmg (20s rech, 10ft radius)
Foot Stomp is balanced as only having a 10ft radius, instead of its current 15ft. (It should only deal 48.73 dmg or have a 26.59s rech given its current radius. No, I'm not asking for a nerf, just stating the facts.)
Fire Sword Circle (sans the dot, which is it's perk like FS's knockdown) deals 68.96 dmg. It also only has a 10ft radius.
Quote:And the pattern repeats for pretty much every power. Super Strength, as an attack set, is down on every single attack when compared to other attack sets. Thus the Super Strength set needs the Rage power in order to deliver the same DPS as other attack sets. -
Quote:WP/EMI was thinking of Willpower or Dark Armor. Probably Dark Armor.
Pros:
* Passive mitigation
* Plenty of endurance
Cons:
* Poor AoE damage / aggro
DA/EM
Pros:
* Stacking stuns (OG + EM stuns)
* Damage aura to help in groups
Cons:
* Endurance management
* Animation lock could be a problem (more of an issue for some than others)
I'd probably go with DA. Aggro management for WP/EM would be pretty bad and likely drive me crazy. Another option you didn't mention would be Shield - SC would help close the AoE gap, as well as AAO fueling your st offense. (Course, I could never get a build I was satisfied with. I'm picky.)
Quote:I find soloing on my ice/stone tanker excruciating enough, and find it hard to believe that em could be more annoying than that.
I should note that Whirling Hands is broken. It deals 1 scale damage, 14s rech, and a 8ft radius. Either it's damage is too low for it's recharge (should be 1.18 scale), the recharge is too slow for it's damage (should be 11.5s), the radius is too small (should be ~10.75ft if dmg/rech remain constant), or some combination of all of them.
Quote:* My sad sands of mu anecdote above was my dark/sd scrapper.(Sorry, I couldn't help myself.)
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This is one of those issues I wish would be discussed without going to pointless extremes.
Soloing +0, x0, no bosses is pretty easy, even without mez protection. The spawns are small, almost all enemies can be dealt with in a single mez, mobs have terrible tohit chances and low damage. Is it possible for something to go wrong and die? Absolutely, but it should not be happening with any degree of regularity. Heck, depending on character / level / enemy group being fought, sometimes I've gotten mezzed and not even bothered with a breakfree.
On the other hand, if you turn up the difficulty (larger spawns, bosses) the possibility of things going wrong greatly increases, disproportionately compared to melee characters. Also, even if each spawn only has one 'dedicated mezzer,' there is a high possibility there will be multiple mobs that can mez. For example, any Freakshow with a hammer arm can apply a stun. For lower levels, there are always the Tsoo Ink Men.
[edit: Squishies would also be more susceptible to problems caused by not seeing a mob, ambushes, etc. Whenever an encounter starts off without the player shooting first, they're going to be at a bigger disadvantage.]
Some squishies handle mezzes / harder content better than others. My Dark/Rad/Dark Defender, for example, can deal with quite a bit. She can handle large groups of mobs quite easily due to a plethora of aoe control, and permanently lock down bosses between OG and Cosmic Burst.. If she gets mezzed, mobs will still be debuffed (FS, Fluffy), crowd controlled (lingering Oppressive Gloom, Pet Gaze, Cosmic Burst), and healed (Fluffy). On the opposite side of the spectrum, my Dark/Rad/Soul Corruptor is far more brittle. She can crush large groups of mobs (TT to lock mobs into the debuff fields then chip them to death), but if she gets mezzed, all her mitigation shuts down. I understand that herding mobs is above and beyond what is 'normal,' but it's frustrating that her specialty is so easily shut down.
I will say that sometimes in groups lack of status protection can be more frustrating. As the teamsize climbs, more mezzers spawn. This makes it easier for one to catch you sideways. (Thankfully, you'll have support from you team so you probably won't die, but you time spent incapacitated can increase. The LGTF is a good example of this.)
Do I think that squishies should simply be given status protection? No, I don't think that would be the right solution - but I do wish there was a bit more leniency. Here is a rough example of what I mean. Give every character a passive that ticks every T seconds. It has a X% chance to give a MAG Y status protection for Z seconds. Just off the cuff numbers: every 5 seconds has a 50% chance for MAG 5 status protection for 1 second. The idea behind it is that even restrained heros fight back against their restraints - allowing them to briefly act. It might be firing off a strategic control, eating an inspiration, using a heal, landing the killing blow, etc. The main purpose is to prevent perma lockdown, while still leaving them as a potent threat to be dealt with instead of trivializing them.
Let me say I'm not the best squishy player out there. I'm very conservative with inspirations, thinking "I think I can handle this," which often gets me into trouble where if I ate insps off the bat I would have been much better off. I also acknowledge some players could do things on squishies I might not be able to. This is just my perspective on the matter. I speak for no one but myself.
[edit: Oh, one last thing - none of my squishies are completely tricked out on IOs. Some have more investment than others, but none of them are softcapped, perma-hastened, etc. Generally just enough to plug some glaring holes (like end consumption).] -
Quote:My problem/concern with SR being straight ported to Tankers is that it provides too much mitigation up front. SR would give as much mitigation as Invuln vs s/l with 4 targets and more mitigation than even saturated Invincibility vs the exotics. With slotted CJ, you could just about double that survivability too. (These numbers don't even include the scaling res, either.)I can't see a problem with a SR tanker tbh. It's resistances will kick in at low hp but atleast they'll kick in. It is one where once you add aid self to it *drools*. Oh wait the fact I might be drooling over it maybe why there maybe a problem.
I just don't think it's wise to design a set that is that high on the mitigation curve out of the box, especially since it's all in one stat (def) and how it scales up exponentially. -
Quote:You actually tested it a while back. Wet Ice doesn't have repel protection/resistance, but it gets both knockback protection/resistance.Is it the "Repel" protection theory, or is it just a KB "Resistance" issue? Only Castle can tell us now.
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Wolf Spider Armor is only MAG2, and I've never seen my VEAT be mezzed solo at lvl16/18 (I honestly forgot what level she is). I think everyone/thing has innate MAG1 protection. (It's why minions don't get stunned by MAG1 effects.)
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Quote:Oh, I could see a modified SR being ported to tankers - just not a straight port from Brutes. If the game is balanced around SOs, then I think a straight port would be broken.Which is precisely why I think Castle would allow it. If he were to decide on some tweak for the feel of the set or to make it more tanky, I'd expect one of the two following ideas:
PSDR gets the axe and replaced with static DR passives. This would lower base defense values.
Lower each toggle value and add heightened regen and/or hp buff to quickness and call it something else. -
Quote:Just assume that if you use any power outside of Dual Blades, you will have a redraw. This could be Kick, Hasten, Laser Beam Eyes, Reconstruction, etc. Anything. (This is true for all weapon sets.)1. Kick from Fighting or Jump Kick from Leaping, will they cause redraw on my swords?
Quote:2. If I go with Fighting, I'll get two more toggles, Tough and Weave. With WP I already have 4 toggles with MoB, IW, RttC, and HS [though I'm not sure how much I'll use that, and I'll stop with IW once I get SoW]. All total that's 6 toggles. Granted I'm getting QR and Stamina ASAP and slotting them with the three IOs [another question is whether I need to supplement those with SOs too]. If I turned them all on, would my end drop just standing there?
Definitely. End reducers are your friend. Just remember that attacks are you biggest end sink, not your toggles. If you have the choice between slotting an end reduc in a toggle or in an attack you use often, slot the attack. Don't ignore end reducs in toggles, but they don't give as much benefit. -
Quote:Tank SR would get 40.56% def just from primary powers alone. Slotted CJ would softcap it. Or unslotted CJ plus a Steadfast. I don't think Castle would allow a set to have that much mitigation base. (I have a feeling that despite peaking so easily, it'd plateau lower than other sets.)I would have to disagree. I see no reason why tanks couldn't have a straight port of brute SR. The PSDR still won't kick in until 60% health. The tank will still suffer from tohit buffs, non-positional attacks and defense debuffs... heh... ok.. scratch that last one. Being defense based, even at tank levels, it will STILL suck until SOs. And, of course, it will still lack a self-heal.
Easy to soft cap early? Yes. REAL early. But that's all it has going for it. -
Quote:*facepalms*I'm pretty sure Nihilii's post was sarcasm. "Yes, if you don't count the weaker protection a Scrapper is just as survivable as a Tanker. And if you don't count the weaker damage a Tanker does just as much damage as a Scrapper."
Yeah, that definitely sounds more like it. You know, for as much sarcasm as I was exposed to while growing up, I sure suck at detecting it at times. I'll just blame text based communication, I think. -
Quote:I'm shocked you of all people would agree to that, Nihilii. Afterall, I've watched your Shield/DM videos, and I know you have used OwtS in the past. Tankers can hit 90% s/l res with it up (Deflection + Tough + OtwS), compared to Scrappers with ~70%. The Tanker is taking 1/3 damage the damage of a Scrapper while having more hp. Under those circumstances, the Tanker is somewhere in the ballpark of 4 times more survivable. Is that situational? Absolutely, but it's there.
(I swear in the past you've said your tank was an order of magnitude tougher than your scrapper, but that may have been Shield vs Invuln or something.)
Would you mind clarifying this for me? I'm interpreting it as dealing the same damage scalar per second (before taking any mods into effect). While that's true, I'm not sure how useful that is when discussing the difference between Tankers and Scrappers. Afterall, Tankers and Scrappers defense sets have the same base numbers. I feel like I have to be reading/interpreting it wrong. -
Quote:Yeah, I remember you saying that you PMed Castle about it, Bill, I just wanted to make sure it was recorded and not forgotten about in the meantime.I've punched this one off to Castle, possibly twice. My memory sucks. It Should be considered a bug since the other APP attacks use the melee modifier.
Did you ever get a response, btw?
Quote:Regen wishlist : Moment of Glory could use a faster activation time. While it has a 15 second duration, the 3 second animation effectively turns it into a 12 second power. This long animation also makes it harder to use it reactively, which is counterintuitive to the idea of a defensive build up. -
Scrappers have higher damage and damage buff mods, so AAO makes a larger impact on their damage output than it does for a Brute. Further, there is a patch on test which increases the damage of Tanker (minor) and Scrapper (+50%) Shield Charge. Keep in mind it has a +400% dmg cap for all of them, still, so Brutes really get shortchanged with SC. (A Scrapper using BU +SC does more damage than Brute SC at the +400% pet damage cap.)
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Quote:That would be correct, +maxhp doesn't effect heal size. I believe that Castle could make heals function off a percent of your total hp - as Cimeroran Surgeons do - but they're not currently setup in that fashion.Well, here's what Sarrate pointed out:
If I'm reading that right, and if Sarrate knows what he or she is talking about (generally a safe bet!), that implies that more life will not make Healing Flames heal more damage. It should still buy you more cushion though.
Don't just take my word for it, feel free to test it yourself. Just use Healing Flames and note how much it healed you for. It should be about a ~913 hp heal, regardless of how much +maxhp you have. If it's significantly bigger (~1k with Accolades), then +maxhp effects it. -
Quote:*) Blaze Master added for Fire Armor / Melee synergy.Wishlist: More variety in Scrapper Ancillary Pools would be nice, especially considering the recent addition of Fire Melee and Fiery Aura. In addition to more pool, more variety in power would also be nice. Some better debuffs and ranged attacks for example combined from several hundred people
*) New ranged attacks (Fire Blast, Fire Ball, Nightfall).
*) Debuff power added (Melt Armor).
*) Utility power added (Physical Perfection).
Resolved?
I do have a bug to add relating to APPs, even if this one is fixed. Last I heard Nightfall's damage was terrible because it was using the Scrapper's range damage mod (0.5) instead of our melee damage mod (1.125). Intuitively this makes sense, but all other APP blasts I'm aware of use the Scrapper melee mod. (I'm now down to the bottom of your first post and see the General APP section. This should probably go there.)
Quote:Bug: Throw Spines crit is resistible in PvP (scrapper crits are normally not resisted) - Saint_O_killers, 2005-11-15
Quote:Wishlist: Dark Armor effects too obscuring, should reduce quantity of effects - effects have been toned down but are still very obvious and obscuring - some scrappers like obscuring armors - would be nice if this was tunable with customized power effects (TheSpeedingSkull, 2005-05-08)I believe BABs is adding a NoFX / Minimal FX option for DA as well. (I need to double check Test...)
Quote:Balance: Would be nice if Temporary Invulnerability were swapped with Resist Physical Damage. It's a small amount of resistance, and TI would give Invuln scrappers a good defense power out of the gate - Defense_Options, 2006-06-08 - Liquid points out two other scrapper sets get more effective powers out of the gate, moved to balance issue 2007-08-17
Quote:Wishlist: Would be nice if -regen effects stood out better. It's too easy to get debuffed and not notice until you're dead - _Pax_, 2005-06-13
Quote:Wishlist: Regen effects too obscuring, constant looping sounds are annoying - repeating sounds should fade after a while and effects have been toned down but are still very obvious and obscuring - some scrappers like the obscuring effect, so perhaps a slider should control this - Halon, 2005-06-17 -
I only have limited experience with SR (lvl ~31 DB/SR) and no experience with Ninjitsu, but a couple other differences between the sets:
SR can attain ~30% def with its powers.
Ninjitsu can attain ~21.645% def with its powers (~24.57% with slotted Hide)
SR has scaling resistance.
Ninjitsu has no resistance, but a self heal comparable to Reconstruction.
SR has knockback protection / resistance.
Ninjitsu has fear protection.
SR can hit 95% def resistance.
Ninjitsu has 34.6% def resistance.
SR has...?
Ninjitsu has Caltrops, Smoke Flash, and Blinding Power.
Is one better than the other? Hard to say. Softcapped Ninjitsu is likely stronger over time in conventional fights than SR because of the self heal, but it doesn't have the scaling resists, either. The biggest thing SR has over Ninjitsu is the def resistance, which mean it's extremely unlikely SR will ever suffer cascading failure, something Ninjitsu still may have to worry about from time to time. -
I'm guessing you've tried this already, but if you haven't already, you could herd up some demon fuel to give your offense more kick. Depending on any restrictions you're placing on yourself, you could always OD on inspirations, too.
Also, crunch out the DPA of your powers accounting for 50% fire res and 25% s/l res, it may change your prioritization compared to an unresisting target. -
Quote:The taunt percent displayed via in game "real numbers" is in error. There is no such thing as a taunt percent. What it's displaying is the taunt MAG. So, MAG 3 = 300%, MAG 4 = 400%, etc. Taunt mag is also not very important in most cases, since all it dictates is whether a mob is effected by taunts or not.For starters, you don't actually lose inherent taunt. Rise to the Challenge retains the same taunt percentage as a tank, 300%. However, you won't build aggro against Gauntlet, so team-mates will have an easy time pulling stuff off of you.
(The real important part of taunts is their duration, of which Tankers and Scrappers share for taunt auras. In the case of RttC, it's 1.25s.) -
Quote:To be honest, I thought Burn used the Avoid mechanic - it wasn't until I double checked that I realized one of Burn's attacks was named Avoid, but used the afraid mechanic. Talk about confusing. Not saying you're wrong, but do you remember when / where it was labeled as terrorize? In game? CoD?double nitpick. It used to be labeled as a Terrorize effect. For some reason though the in-game power display no longer separates between the status effect types... Burn simply is listed as producing just Fear.
Anyways, I agree on the monitoring Defense Values instead of resist values. One of the reasons I don't place much stock in soft-capping defenses on non melee types (other than the fact that most IO's that offer defense values are bloody expensive on Lagworths), is that soft-capping defense is a bit pointless if your archtype doesn't have any resistance to defense debuffs.
I disagree with you on the point that defense without def resistance is pointless. It's less effective and less reliable, yes, but not pointless. I played an Invuln Scrapper (without Weave) before the typed IO changes and before it received its def resistance, and its defense (which topped out around 28%) was still very noticeable. In a def debuffing situation, that still a) slows down the initial failure b) makes it take less purples to stabilize your def when being debuffed.
Quote:Healing: The Healing Flames buff really gave Fire Tanks a well needed boost. It is both here and in Consume that Recharge will benefit you the most. Also aim for some of the +HP accolades to get the most benefit out of this. And on that note I shall mention another power that not many people want to talk about.
Quote:I meant resistance, because he can't really afford to be hit when resistance is debuffed. Since he has no defense, he's always going to be hit; he just has to make sure he can take the hits. You're right that -resistance attacks are relatively rare compared to defense debuffs, but when it happens you have to take quick action.
If you play MA arcs you'll run into more things that debuff resistance. Also, some villain groups (Howlers) can have extremely nasty -resist attacks.
Defense debuffs are so common that your defense is debuffed in practically every large mob that has a variety of attacks. Guns, swords, rad, Quicksand, etc., all can debuff defense. So a Fire tanker without any defense is going to be hit right away and is going to have debuffed defense a majority of the time after level 30 or so.
I've monitored defense on my fire tanker and it's often at -20 to -60 so much of the time that you just can't worry about it. You're not depending on defense to survive, so it doesn't matter what it is -- you're going to get hit, so you just have to soak it up.
On characters that are defense-based I monitor defense instead for the obvious reasons. I usually monitor last hit chance as well. -
Quote:Nitpick: It's a MAG50 afraid, not fear. Fear causes mobs to cower in place, afraid tends to cause mobs to try to get away from whatever is causing the effect. I'm guessing this invokes the mobs' "run away" mentality, which you might sometimes see with mobs running away for no real reason. (ex: Hotfeet, Arctic Air, Tornado, etc) There is another effect, avoid (ex: Rain of Fire, Ice Storm, Freezing Rain, etc.), but I'm not sure what the difference between them is.The theory is that you'll trade off defensive capabilities for more damage. However, Blazing Aura isn't exactly... that much more powerful than an ice, stone, or electric's damage aura... and Burn has a Magnitude 50 Fear affect. So unless you're playing with somebody that has strong mass immobilizes, Burn will send stuff running and ruin any attempts at holding aggro.
Just out of curiosity, did you mean smash def instead of res? Res debuffs are pretty rare (Council Sonic troops, Sonic Freaks, Rad AVs, and Longbow/Vanguard in Gaussian's arc is about all I can think of). Defense debuffs, on the other hand, are a dime in a dozen. I personally find monitoring defense far more important / useful than res in most cases. -
Quote:The change is on Test, not Live. It's a 50% damage increase, so you'll notice it when it hits... either that or I'll have to remember never to trust anecdotal evidence from you.Seriously though I must be oblivious because I don't notice much change in damage...
Quote:Aye, such is why I mentioned the low damage ceiling. I don't think that term would be appropriate for normal brute powers
Sucks for brute SC, well it sucked before this change too, just sucks more relative now heh. I think it is a bigger issue for brute burn as it has the low cap and fury only works for a sec or so on it.
At any rate I think there is enough precedent to make the demand that ALL psuedo-pets get changed to adhere to AT balancing metrics. The issue present in dark miasma eclipses Shield charge as far as inter AT balance goes.
(You probably know that burn deals the same [edit: base] damage on a Brute as it does a Tanker and Scrapper, too.)
Don't forget Blizzard... (Hmm, interesting, Blasters and Defenders summon the same pet, but Corruptors get a different version. Not only do all of them do the same damage, but the Corruptors' Scourges and has one of the ticks no longer flagged as PvE specific.) -
The defense, no question. Don't forget that it will only take two t1 purples (or one t2) to softcap you. That is a huge benefit when the going gets tough.
If you're facing enough def debuffers to redline your defense, then you'll never notice the 5 hp/sec difference, anyways.