Sarrate

I've only ever used it as a Scrapper, but I rarely died from it. I'd usually either bail out of combat / use a phase temp power / magus / inspirations to survive. Some of those options aren't as palatable for the Tanker playstyle, though.

There are a couple things you could do:
*) Don't worry about them, if they die, it's their fault.
*) When they do that, catch up and let the group / scrapper deal with that spawn as you hit the next. (I generally only do this when teaming with friends who I know can handle it.)
*) Don't give the Scrapper time to move ahead in the first place.

The last one is my preferred choice. What I tend to do is wait till the spawn is getting close to defeat then moving on while the rest of the group cleans up. This takes some practice/experience to know when is the right time to move on without them, but it works really well when you've got it.

I'm almost always on the lookout for loose mobs to taunt / reaggro. While I prefer to go after high priority targets first (could be dangerous bosses, or nasty minions like Sappers), keeping the attention off squishies is a higher priority.)

For me, I generally get to groups 5-10s before a group, so I have time to setup. I jump into one side of the mob while Taunting the other. Then I use AoE(s). If the spawn is spread out enough, I might taunt one side (ie: left), jump into another and AoE (ie: middle) then jump to the next and AoE or Taunt (ie: right). Basically my goal is to get taunt applied to all of them from the start, then moving on to actually defeat them. If mobs are staying at a range, Taunt them. the range debuff will often force them to get closer, maybe not melee range, but still.

The more I have trouble with losing aggro, the more often I'll Taunt - even baddies in melee range. (Then again, I'm WP. It should be much easier for you as Invuln.)

1) I'd feel more comfortable if it was an hour or two later. (Work and a general tendency to stay up late has had my sleep schedule pretty whacked for the past couple weeks. I've been sleeping in pretty late on weekend as a result.)

2) I think having the tank / power analyser being separate people would probably be a good idea. Remember that when using the analyser your "real numbers" are replaced with the target, so you can't ensure you're at/above the softcap while doing it. (Granted, entirely possible to build a team with so much defense it may not matter, but it's something to keep in mind.)

3) Dirty PLer.

Against a +0 AV, yep, you're correct. It gets worse as the level gap increases:

+0 AV - 7.5% floor
+1 AV - 8.25% floor
+2 AV - 9% floor
+3 AV - 9.75% floor
+4 AV - 10.5% floor
+5 AV - 11.25% floor

with the initals B.P. to come along and help sort out this mess. Ele, Ryxx, Coz you guys up for a run this weekend?

I still think there is a posibility that defender debuffs are working on the AVs while 'something' may be amiss with controller debuffs on them.[/QUOTE]

Brute? Pfffffft! Going Rogue isn't here yet, silly!

*looks at the above quote*
Irony.

The soft cap works for all enemies so long as:

1) They are no higher than +5.
2) They don't have tohit buffs.
3) You aren't def debuffed.

There are no +6 enemies in the STF (or anywhere at lvl50, mob tables only go up to lvl55 iirc), so we don't have to worry about #1.

There are a few AVs with tohit buffs in the STF. Going from memory (I may forget some):

• Silver Mantis - Build Up (bugged AI, won't use it under heavy fire)
• Black Scorpion - Rage (bugged AI, won't use it under heavy fire)
• Mako - Followup (uses it freqently, but most Tanker sets won't be too scared of his mostly lethal damage)
• Lord Recluse - Blue Tower

Most of those are buggy or not too scary. The only real exception is Lord Recluse, who has +30% tohit with the Blue Tower up. (Think of +tohit like unresistible -def, they'd be mathematically equivalent. So, if you have 45% def, it's only really working as 15% while the Blue Tower is up.)

Def debuffs are a lot more common. Again, from memory:

• Thorn Tree - Pretty much everything.
• Silver Mantis - Pretty much everything.
• Scirocco - His sword attacks, tornadoes.
• Mako - I'm pretty sure his Slash attack has a def debuff componenent, never checked for it specifically since I pretty much never tank him alone.
• Lord Recluse - His leg attacks.

While there aren't a higher number of AVs, there are more powers between them that debuff def and they're actually used, despite the buggy AI.

So, I basically aim for 45% def and eat inspirations if I drop below that for the AVs. well, some aren't scary enough to warrant it, but I'm aware that I'm not softcapped and ready to eat purples if I need to. When fighting the herded AVs, you have to be really quick to react - it's really easy to be doing fine, then take a buttload of damage / get held by GW because you weren't paying attention. Then against Recluse I make sure my def is at 75% or higher. (Normally handled with a combination of buffs, lucks, and Magus.)

< /verbose >

Just to be clear - her regenerating that much health from hitting targets with Dark Regen (45s cooldown) wouldn't be surprising. In order for 2k-3k hp/sec to be showing up via Power Analyzer / Survailence, it would have to be passive regen, not a click (which is just visible once).

Also, the best way to slow down power activations is actually Kin - Siphon Speed's recharge debuff is unresistible.

Holy crap!

If she was truely regeneration 2-3k hp/sec, then that is all kinds of wrong. A normal lvl50 AV has ~28k hp and regens ~93.33 hp/sec. I don't know how many hp a lvl54 AV has, but even with 30k hp that should only be in the 100 hp/sec range. In order for her to regenerate "just" 2k hp/sec, that'd require that she either have 600k hp OR 2000% regen (assuming 30k hp) OR a combination of the two.

If she has 600k hp, that would mean she around double as many HP as Reichsman.

If she has 2000%, that means she'd be regenerarting 5% of her health every 0.75s.

None of those sound even remotely close to reasonable. Next time someone uses a Power Analyzer or Survailence on her and sees a regen rate like that, screenshot it, because it has to be a bug.

I understand what you're saying, Aett, but there are a few complications in the Tanker vs Brute comparison. First is Tankers (and most Hero ATs) have a role that they perform very well. While they have auxilerary roles (such as damage), they're not nearly as strong or well defined as their primary. Due to taunt mechanics, as you're well aware, it's becoming easier and easier for other ATs (Brutes/Scrappers to overwhelm Tanker's ability to generate threat. Once that happens, the Tanker has to fall back on its weaker roles.

Brutes, on the other hand, are normally viewed as a damage AT with aggro holding capabilities. So a Brute not holding any aggro will deal more damage than a Tank (even counting the Fury drop from not holding aggro), meaning their overall group contribution drop is lower. In other words, which would perform better, a group with 4 Tanks OR 3 Tanks/1 Brute OR 2 Tanks/2 Brutes, etc.

To compound things, I think a Brute has superior threat generation to a Tank, all things being equal (no taunt vs no taunt, taunt vs taunt). If a Tanker and a Brute were attacking a mob, the Brute would eventually win since they have the same taunt durations and more damage. (It also means they can hold AV aggro easier than a Tank without Taunt since they have moer threat generation outside of taunt mechanics through damage.)


Dech Kaison sums up my sentiments pretty well (emphasis mine):

When I play a Tanker, I want to tank. I don't see any other power adding as much power flexibility for the role than Taunt. (Helps with AVs, characters with taunt effects, ranged enemies, clumping, etc.)


Having said that, if someone doesn't want it, it's their perrogative. They may have a different criteria for performance/fun/whatever. Some people may build Tanks for other reasons (farming, AV soloing, etc) where Taunt would be a wasted power.

Just a few notes that kind of touch on all of these:

• If you're playing a Tank with a strong taunt aura (Ice, Invuln, Shield), then you'll miss Taunt less than other primaries.
  
• If you're teaming with another taunt capable character (any Brute, Invuln/Shield Scrappers), it's highly possible / probable they will steal aggro from mobs.
  
• If you're fighting an AV with either of the above and you don't have Taunt, you won't be holding aggro. Their threat generation will completely outstrip yours.
  
• Taunt is effected by the Purple Patch, so higher level AVs will shorten the duration of taunt effects. Keep in mind that Gauntlet / taunt auras are already not guaranteed to apply when fighting AVs. (This is very important for, say, the STF. Good luck holding aggro without it.)

In my opinion, you can't tank the spectrum of the game without it. Whenever the game throws you a curve ball (ie: taunt capable characters, multiple AVs, wanting to reposition an AV without losing aggro, etc), you're stuck. One of the worst feelings as a Tank, to me, is being stuck fighting an AV/GM and being relegated to a damage role.

Having said that, depending on what you expect out of your Tank (as well as who you team with, playstyle, etc). It's something you'll have to try for yourself. I tried to play without Taunt, but I couldn't do it, even in regular missions.

Obviously, I'm biased towards Taunt.

Oh, okay. Whew. When you decide to hurt me, could you give me some advance notice so I know when not to be around? That'd be super, thanks.

Ahh, I misread what you said then.

It was a joke Ele. :P

I always said it was Orange and Voodoo vehemently disagreed. I was trying to use a bit of Bugs reverse psychology, but he side-stepped my trap with silly things like "evidence." Hah!

Scirocco has two ways of debuffing defense:

1) Tornadoes - These are autohit and he summons more than one of them at a time. While you're fighting him, be ready to eat purple inspirations to compensate. They may disperse on their own and not mess your defense the whole time, but it's better safe than sorry.

2) Melee hits - Like most sword powers, each attack debuffs defense. Not nearly as scary as the tornadoes, but something to keep an eye on.

Not really the place for an in depth discussion on tactics (the main point is whether or not it's bugged), but I'd almost always say taking down GW first is the best. Scirocco's def debuffs can be problematic, but compensated by lucks. Ghost Widow, if she actually holds the tank, is worse in that regard - not to mention her other nonsense like Black Hole. It can be worked around with +status effect buffs like CM, but that also eats a lot of the buffer's time, hindering their damage output, and the speed of killing the AVs.

As I understand it (and again, I don't way to say I'm 100% right on this until I test it), you'd reduce the number by the Purple Patch, then by enemy resistance. So, I think it'd be something like this:

FinalMobResistance = MobResistance - ( (1-MobResistance) * PurplePatch * ResDebuff)

So, a +4 with 50% resistance taking 100% of res debuffs:

FinalMobResistance = 0.5 - ( (1-0.5) * 0.48 * 1 )
FinalMobResistance = 0.5 - ( 0.5 * 0.48 )
FinalMobResistance = 0.5 - 0.24
FinalMobResistance = 0.26

Debuff goes from 100% to 24%, mob goes from 50% res to 26%.

Floor? Of course not, I doubt you'd floor any of the AVs, even those with no resistance at all. The resistance floor is -300%, if memory serves. If you mean bring them down to 0%, well, that's another matter entirely.

Des already answered this. It's pretty much been common knowledge for a while, Ele.

You were crazy and thought it was called the Orange Tower.

Keep in mind that the Sonic has resistance debuff, so even if their damage type is resisted, they're helping everyone. I'm not sure if that's really the problem, though. We certainly never really cared who brought what kind of damage types before. Heck, we've still killed them fairly fast when I was on my dang /Elec Defender.

...Viv, please don't hurt me. I'm speaking Defender here. D: (Maybe, if I'm lucky, the numbers here scared her away and I'm safe... maybe.)

AV resistance does not cover resistance or damage debuffs - it's why they're so damned good against them. The only things that resist it are resistance and the purple patch.

Note, I consider -def to be one of the weakest (if not the weakest) debuff you can have against AVs. It is extremely resisted (something like 3.9% base effectiveness against a +4 AV, so -50% def = [-3.12%] def, yay).

For the same reason as above, I think the -regen from Transfusion and TW to be fairly superfluous. Regen debuffs are resisted just as strongly as defense, but things like Lingering Radiation are powerful enough to still make a dent. AVs regen MaxHP/300 hp/sec. So, if a lvl54 AV has 30,000 hp, it will regen 100 hp/sec.

This means a 500% regen debuff (31.2% after resists) is negating 19.5 hp/sec regen (or 31.2 dps after resists, etc). By comparison, a 50% debuff (3.12% after resists) is worth a meagre 3.12 dps. You're better off just using an attack - yes, even as a Defender. (As a Kin, I'd spam SP instead of Transfusion.)

[edit: Fixed.]

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly, that's taking 1 hour 45 minutes to complete, and not 1 minute 45 seconds to kill the AVs, right? I'm 99% positive you mean the former (since the only way I've seen the AVs die that fast was with nukes / shivans), but I want to amke sure.

Just out of curiosity, what kind of tank was tanking the AVs? Ele's Granite? Reason I ask, is it may be possible that Ghost Widow was hitting people with her heal, since you didn't have any +def going. A granite could easily survive the damage, even if it's defense was trashed (which Scirocco's tornadoes have a tendancy to do). (Also, not trying to say Ele doesn't watchi his numbers / pop inspirations, mind you; I'm just making guesses.) Of course, healing back damage is a lot different than not taking a lot... The second run is also a lot harder to try to explain. Two colds should would soft cap anything, and give a nice buffer to anything with +def to begin with.

There are a few ways to find out the numbers:

1) Power Analyzer - This would be the best, since it would display what the AVs actually have without any ambiguity. Of course, this would require that you go through the STF up to them to see. (Alternately, you could place GW into an AE arc and check there, but there is a possiblity the AE version is different than the STF version. I don't think so, but just be warned.)

2) Celux (Culex?)'s Spreadsheet - Search the guide forum for posts made by Celux (Culex?) and download the latest version of the spreadsheet. It has resistance / defense numbers for most mobs in there. Slight chance that they could be off if she was buffed.

3) Try to peek at them in game by typing something like the following: [Ghost Widow.Resistance] - If you get it right it will be clickable just like typing in [Brawl] would be.
Note - These aren't always accurate, since they're displaying the power using player modifiers rather than AV modifiers. They could be different when AVs use them.

The best solution would be #1 during the STF.

Also, you're absolutely right, AVs with resistance resist res debuffs. Off hand I think that GW has high NE / Psi res, not sure about other types. I doubt your teams were heavy on either of those damage types, though.

I'd find this unlikely, but weirder things have happened. I'd want to do a few tests on normal mobs to ensure that I have the mechanics down pat before posting a formula to test against. I'm pretty sure I know what it is, but I don't want to give false data and be a cause for false "zomg it's broken" talk.

The basic gist: Psi Blast is avoidable with positional defense. Mind / Illusion Control powers are not.

Interestingly, Carnies use non-positional attacks more frequently than not. The only mobs with psi attacks are Illusionists, Master Illusionists, and (Dark) Ring Mistresses. Of those, only the (Dark) Ring Mistress are flagged positionally.

Well, if you're sitting at 90% res (s/e) and 75% def (all positions) then you should be fine without capped toxic resist. Keep in mind I've never tried tanking him with a Fire Tank (she is built offensively rather than defensively) - but I don't see a reason to blow an extra precious inspiration every minute for it - especially when you were likely blowing 3 per minute as it was (2 t3s and an orange, it sounds like?).

I'm WP, so things are slightly different. Some napkin math:

• I have ~3170 hp and regen ~91ish hp/sec.
• You have ~2400 hp and regen X hp/sec. In addition, you have HF which is a ~937.5 hp heal every Y seconds.
  • Making up some numbers, with 250% regen, you'd have a passive 25 hp/sec regen. If you can use HF every 18 (don't forget you have to include the cast time, since recharge doesn't start till the power is done activating), that's an additional ~52 hp/sec. Total of ~77 hp/sec. Lower sustained regen and being more susceptible to burst damage. (There is also the fact WP can have up to 3 minutes of s/l res cap w/o insp use from SoW and Magus.)

What would probably work really well for you would be 1 Thermal / Sonic and 1 Cold. That would give you capped s/l res and be a single t3 purple away from the 75% def threshold. That would allow you last longer with running out of inspirations, and pack a few more panic insps (a few more greens, maybe). Also, if you take down the Blue Tower, you'd be very close to softcapped, and may not even need lucks after that, except if you get debuffed.

Btw, from a min/max perspective, buff sets with strong offensive capabilities are better choices than those without. (For example, Cold would be a better choice than FF.) The reason is this helps kill things (AVs/Towers) faster, which means you have to deal with them for shorter periods of time. With the same mitigation numbers, it's a lot easier to survive the Recluse with the Red Tower up for 3 minutes than it is to survive for 5. Do you need them? Nope - my first STF ever was on a team with 3 Tanks, 2 Scrappers, 1 Blaster, 1 FF Controller and 1 FF Defender. That said, it took a lot longer.

I'm almost positive all his attacks are flagged with a position.

With Frostwork (or two), yes, definitely possible. Without Frostwork? Not a chance in hell. Tankers cap at roughly +71% hp. If you count 20% from Accolades, that's still +51% hp you'd need to makeup from IOs, which simply is not happening. You could scrape together maybe 20-30% tops, but after that, forget it. (Preacher has about +20% from IOs, the Accolades, and HPT, he still isn't quite capped, ~3170ish iirc. The cap is ~3212.)

On the other hand, it does scale with +recharge, while +regen does not. Of course, the counter problem is sets with click heals eat up animation time healing while regen is passive. Then again, regen can't be spiked or saved, but it's constant (can be a good or bad thing).

Pros and cons to both, really.

Resistance inspiration aren't that stong. The different tiers grant 10% / 15% / 20% resistance. So two t3 orange and one application of Healing Flames (20%, iirc) adds up to the 60% resistance area. That would make 1000 toxic damage deal just as much as 4000 smash (that you were capped to). That alone won't kill you, but it's something to be aware of. (I don't think it's necessary to cap toxic res - it would cost faar too many inspirations to keep up.)

If you were at 90% res and still rocking 75% def, then it was phenominally bad luck. More support than a Rad can offer would be prefereable, but I only aim for those stat - definitely not heals. (Heck, I never have more than 30-40% energy res because Recluse only has two energy attacks, both of which are ranged and generally not used in melee. At least while the Blue Tower's +rech buff is up.)

If you're having survivability problems, another avenue would be to take down all four towers, starting with the red, then blue. Reclue's offense does go down several notches when his recharge isn't capped - even if you're flooring him.

Aww... Well, one of those cases of too much of a good thing I suppose.

Absolutely, I completely understand that. Many times something has gone wrong and I didn't know why; it wasn't until the next run or two through it (not necessarily the STF, either) that I was paying attention to differnt things I had considered potential problems.

(AE Example: I was fight some mobs with a few Dark Miasma users in the mix. For some reason, I was taking an unusually high amount of damage while fighting them. It took me a while to realize their Tar Patch was unresistible - kinda like the old Longbow Sonic Grenades.)

The reason I've been saying what I have is to try to fill in the gaps of what you remember and give you ideas on what to look out for next time. (ie: def debuffing, toxic damage, etc) If you don't, I highly recomment you monitor at least one of the defense types or positions. It makes it really easy to see when you're going to be in trouble - Recluse or otherwise.

I know you miss them, don't deny it!

Something more went on than what you're describing here, GP. You previously stated that you were at the res cap and 75% def, flooring Recluse. It doesn't matter how you got those stats (power set, IOs, buffs, inspirations, etc), you're just as survivable as someone else with those stats, but in a different fashion. The biggest thing boon buffs bring is they require less inspirations to keep your survivability up - which means you can handle Recluse for longer periods of time before running out. (If you tank Recluse by one of the four pillars in the middle of the platform, teammates can hand you inspirations while out of LOS from Recluse.) If your survivability was dramatically different after Magus dropped, are you sure you were still res capped / flooring Recluse?

From what you're describing, Recluse hit you a couple times forcing you to used Healing Flames, after that (but before HF recharged) he hit you 4 more times in a row. That'd be what, about 6 of his hardest hitting attack within a span of 15-20ish seconds? Considering each of those attacks have a ~2.3ish second cast time (6 back to back would take 13.8s before including recharge time). The only thing that makes sense to me is that he hit you with a def debuff and you were taking toxic damage, which I bet you weren't res capped against. (So the attack that deals toxic damage, while weaker than his KO clone, did more damage total due to avoiding your 90% res.)

Either that, or the RNG really, really hates you. (I've never seen Recluse hit that often if he's floored.)


Note: I'm not saying you should be able to do this without buffers / etc. Those are always welcome. Rather, I'm saying the circumstances of your death seem to be missing something (not intentionally).

On a non-optimized team? Yeah, maybe not. On a min/maxed team? Absolutely! Just keep an eye out on your defense... Scirocco is a jerk like that. (Tornadoes = autohit -def debuffs)


[edit: Note: I was falling asleep while writing / rereading this, so if this comes off poorly, it's because I should be in bed sleeping instead of posting on the forums. Sorry.]

The Blue Tower gives Recluse +30% tohit, raising the soft-cap for that fight to 75% defense (45 + 30 = 75). If GP was at 75% def, he should have been safe... however some of Recluse's attacks have def debuffs, so if GP got tagged by one of those, Recluse was no longer floored and would have a much easier time hitting him the second, third, and fourth time.

A def debuff as small as 10% (going from 75% def to 65%) would raise Recluse's tohit chance from 11.25% to 33.75% - three times as much as before. I don't know how strong Recluse's def debuffs are off the top of my head, but they're definitely not something to ignore casually. I always keep my defense monitored for this reason.

(Also, something isn't adding up, damagewise. As far as I'm aware, the hardest hitting attack Recluse has is hi KO Blow clone, it hits for around 5800 smash damage before resists, 580 after. If he hit 4 times in a row, that would total 2320 damage. A single application of Healing Flames would've compensated for that. If I had to guess, I'd say he landed an attack with his legs that 1. debuffed your def 2. you weren't res capped to. If you had +40% res from outside sources, you would've needed to have HF double stacked to be at the toxic res cap.)

There is an easy solution to this: fight all four AVs at once. No surprise aggro that way.

Pretty much. Hamidon's (and his mitos) attacks aren't flagged as having a type or positional component. I believe the only kind of defense that works against it is "base defense", which works against everything. Unfortunately, I'm 95% sure that all kinds of base defense have been removed from the game. :P

Of course, Hamidon would be a moot point for a MoLGTF run - you could always bring EoEs.

Ahh you're right, I misread that. My apologies.

Note: Siphon Life (and all self heals that I'm aware of) use a table based off the base hp of the AT, not your current maximum. So Siphon Life heals you 20% of your base hp. An SOed WP Tanker with HPT 3 slotted for health has 130% normal hp, so SL would only heal ~15.38% of their max. The more maxhp you stack (Accolades, IO bonuses, etc), the lower that percentage becomes.

I'm not saying that Siphon Life's heal isn't still good - it certainly is - it's just a bit diluted with WP.

I'd still slot Soul Drain with Accuracy. Yes, it has a 20% accuracy bonus, but I wouldn't slot any attacks with just 20% accuracy. Likewise, I wouldn't leave Soul Drain with just 20%.

This pretty much sums it up for me. I dislike the game doing things for me because it invariably does it when I would want to be doing something else.

The only thing I could see myself autoing is click status protection (having status protection is almost always more important than whatever I'm doing) or maybe Hasten, if I have its downtime to something minimal. If not, then I like the ability to save it until I'm in a crunch, if I so desire.