Sarrate

Also, since it only helps the targets it hits (target cap of 10) it won't help against every mob you're fighting, nor will it help against ranged targets.

Don't get me wrong, it definitely helps, but it's not the same as being softcapped by defense. Realistically, if you're at 42% def and your other stats are reasonably balanced, you'll be fine for most anything you want to do in the game. If something throws a curve ball, eat a purple.

I meant before the towers were down so I couldn't hit him. Besides, with a well slotted Taunt (~95% taunt enhancement and a recharge of around 5s) and I've still seen him (infrequently) run away from me when the team starts attacking. He didn't budge from my Invuln. That was a while ago, so there may have been AI changes, etc, since then.

As for no deaths... FF + Emp with PBU+Fort and I was eating a t3 purple at the same time (tried to go with an orange till red was down, too). This was before we knew how much +tohit the Blue Tower gave him (many postulated it was in the "yellow" tower, too). During the one brief period that Recluse hit me with my oranges down (and DP down), he railed me to 1hp twice in a row. Heh, good times.

Note: My Invuln didn't have the Fighting pool.

Oh, well in that case, the Tanker always wins. Could be Invuln vs Cimerorans or Invuln vs Psi Clockwork, the Tanker has higher def, res, hp, and heal (since it's based of base hp).


This discussion thread about repositioning mobs started from dave_p saying (paraphrased) "Brutes and Scrappers can handle some aggro, so who cares if they get some." I mentioned positioning, if the Scrapper has aggro and is pointing them in a dangerous direction, that is why I'd care.

To which you said "the Scrapper can reposition them too." Yes, they can, but it's not a guarantee they will. Again, I care that they have aggro because I don't know they'll reposition them.

You're right, a Tanker could do something like point the AVs towards the team and get one killed. That wasn't the perspective I was talking about, though.

Ahh, I see what you were trying to say - however, I don't think the risk is because of the two you cited.

Dust Devils don't really do a lot of damage. The worst part about them is def debuffs for the Tanker.

Whirling Sword, while it deals a lot of damage, isn't that threatening to "squishies" (ie: ranged characters) because they're so fare away. Dangerous to Scrappers, yes.

The most dangerous AoE that Scirocco has is EM Pulse. It has a gigantic radius, heavy damage (as much as Hack), end drain, and a hold. If a squishy is hit by that, the next hit is pretty much a KO.

Which leads me back to the cones. If the only AoE a ranged squishy has to deal with is EM Pulse, they're fairly safe. It may be scary for a moment, but you'll have time to heal. If positioned arbitrarily, however, he could EM Pulse, then follow it up with a cone while they're still held / low on health. Same thing with a Scrapper. The difference between only taking damage from Whirling Sword / EM Pulse, to taking both of those AND Static Discharge, Desert Wind, and Slice is large.

Does that make more sense / answer the question?

My assersion was that a Tanker (with Taunt) was better at repositioning mobs/AVs compared to a Scrapper. You're replying by saying that if a Scrapper wants to reposition an AV, the team has to cooperate. A Tanker, on the other hand, doesn't require that coordination so therefore a Tanker is better at repositioning. Do you disagree?

I actually tanked Recluse on my DM/Invuln Scrapper back around... Sept 2007 from start to finish with no deaths (and no debuff anchors on Recluse).

...I still have no idea how I held aggro.

Really?

You're comparing the loss of 1.875% / 1.562% defense to be the equivalent of things like the Purple Patch, AV Buff, Regen nerfs ("concern = small tweak"), GDN, and ED?

...really?

Keep in mind an Invuln Brute would have just as much res as a Fire Tanker. Yes, there will be times where their roles could swap, but I'd say it's more likely to be in the Tanker's advantage than not.

The Scrapper could, that doesn't mean he will. If you see him (Invuln/Shield Scrapper) pointing dangerous mob(s) towards the team and want to change it, you're stuck if you don't have Taunt.

I disagree that a Scrapper is better at repositioning (talking about moving from point A to point B, not just rotating them). The second they jump out of aggro aura range, there is a set amount of time before the AV will lose intrest forcing the Scrapper to start to joust, etc. The Tanker could back away and Taunt. This locks the AV to the Tanker while limiting his range, making them have to move to get into range. Can a Scrapper do it if they want to? Yes, but they won't do it as well.


As for Scirocco - he has the following cones:
Static Discharge - 40 ft range (dmg, end drain)
Desert Wind - 50 ft range (dmg, knockback)
Slice
Headsplitter (two people should pretty much never be hit with this, but including for completeness sake)

Those cones (namely the first two) can do a number on squishies, if they're too close. Scrappers, if they're not IOed or built for survivability, can get chewed up them (and melee cones) as well.

Admittedly different teams can handle different threats - the more protective buffs you have, the less important it becomes.

Scrapper Shield / Grant Cover
TankerShield / Grant Cover
City of Data agrees with you. I'd definitely call that a bug - whether it's a Brute/Scrapper bug or a Tanker bug is a different question, though!

That list is ranked based on the ability to hold aggro. I mention debuffs because they increase threat generated vs an aura without a debuff.

Also, the order of the sets in each grouping really isn't that important, imo. I'd put Invuln and Ice in the same ballpark, even if Ice is stronger than Invuln. They're reasonably close. Comparing Invuln to, say, Fire, is a pretty big difference.

I can agree with the highlighted and acknowledge not everyone cares about aggro management in the same manner I do. That is fine, but if someone says they're just as effective without Taunt as they could be with it, I'll have to disagree.

As for which auras are the strongest/weakest, I'd say it's something like this:

Best
Shield / Against All Odds - Autohit, 1s pulse, 25% longer duration, debuff. (Also includes a damage buff which increases threat from attacks.)
Invulnerability / Invincibility - Autohit, 1s pulse, 25% longer duration.
Ice / Chilling Embrace - Autohit, 0.5s pulse, multiple debuffs. (Ice also has Icicles.)

Middle
Dark, Fire, Stone - Accuracy check, 2s pulse, damage. Some have debuffs / multiple auras.

Worst
Willpower / Rise to the Challenge - Autohit, 1s pulse, debuff, exceptionally short (1.25s vs 13.5s)


Because there are situations where other ATs (Brutes/Scrappers included) can get into trouble. For example, consider a Fiery Aura Brute vs a WP Tank against Cimerorans. The FA Brute is very likely going to have more survivability issues than the WP. Or maybe an an SR Brute vs an Invuln Tanker against DE. That sort of thing.

Same thing for AVs, too. What can be annoying is trying to reposition an AV so their cones don't hit/kill squishies (think Scirocco), but you can't do it because a Scrapper has aggro.

Does a Tank always need to hold aggro or people will die? Surely not, but it happens enough to be useful to me and not a "who cares."

Of course, if you manage to get def enhancement into DA, then it can pump out ~46.8% melee/lethal all by itself when double stacked. Not all builds can accomplish that, but something else to keep in mind.

Accuracy is an overloaded term, so you could be confusing the two possible definitions:

• Accuracy Enhancement - This is how much accuracy a power is slotted for (including set bonuses, but not tohit buffs). If you put an SO into a power, you have 33% accuracy enhancement.
  
• Accuracy (or Final ToHit) - This is your final chance to hit something after factoring in accuracy enhancement, mob level, etc. For example, with a single accuracy SO, you'd have a final tohit of 99.75% (capped at 95%).

Allstar was talking about the first, your post is talking about the second. If you're looking in MIDs, you are indeed correct.

When designing builds, I tend to look at the accuracy (final tohit) against +4s. If you want to set MIDs that way, Options -> Configuration, Exemping & Base Values, change Base ToHit from 75 to 39. For other level mobs:

+0 - 75
+1 - 65
+2 - 56
+3 - 48
+4 - 39
+5 - 30

Well, let me give you my logic. Let's assume the player has 1,000 base hp. The heal itself would give 500 hp instantly (assume 200% enhancement for ease of calculating). Over the next 30s, they'd regen an additional 250 hp. ( (MaxHP * Regen / 240) * 30 )

Now, let's assume the player has gotten +30% MaxHP from outside sources (Accolades, IOs, etc) and now has 1300 hp. The heal still heals for 500. While the regen increases, it only goes up to 325, still less than the heal. The player would need 2,000 hp (+100%) to have them equal out.

What I tend to do is wait till I'm at ~50% hp before using it. It doesn't have to be a burst of damage, but whenever the steady chip damage gets me down low. That way, the heal will prop me back up and the regen will carry me a bit longer. If I'm keeping myself above ~50% hp, then what benefit is the healing/regen?

I can see the end management, to a point, but the set also has Power Sink which gives more end back and can provide situational end drain mitigation.


I'm not saying that you have to play my way, mind you. I just don't think it's worth it.

If memory serves, isn't Numina pretty light on +rech? You'd have to make the call if the ranged def is better than having Energize up more often, but that would vary more build to build.

Really? That surprises me, Shred. I'd think that the chance of wasting the heal would be problematic. I know I wouldn't want to waste it on my Claws/Elec Brute.

Note: I'm biased against autocast in general.

Thanks, Fleeting. I tried that with my table above, but it still ended up broken. I think the big difference is that my table was using tabs while your ASCII checkmark was using spaces.

I'll give spaces a whirl next time and see if that works. Tedious, but worth it so that those darn things are readable.

That guide is horribly out of date, and really isn't that accurate anymore. It was before Castle posted on the forums about what he and Ghost Widow (coder) found out while deep diving into the taunt mechanics code.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disrespecting Circ for his work and it was the best we knew at the time, but things have since been clarified more.

Yes, I'm well aware of how defense non-linearly scales up. I say it's "close" because a single power (CJ) adds 3% with just the base slot.

Or to put it another way, the Tanker SR (40% def) gets hit ~46% as often as Tanker Shield (28.4% def). The Shield would need an additional ~54% mitigation (res/maxhp/etc) to make up the difference.

Add 1 slotted CJ to both: Tanker SR (43% def) gets hit ~37.6% as often. Tanker Sheild now needs a total of ~62.4% outside mitigation to catch up.

Is 40% as strong as 45%? Absolutely not. I do consider it to be "close" when talking about a straigh up SOed build with no outside pool powers yet included to bolster it.

Just to make sure we're on the same page, when you say "/SR's die when a tank should not," under what assumption are you operating?

• SOs vs IOs
• Solo vs Teamed
• Enemy level (+0 vs +4)
• No outside assistance vs outside assistance

I ask because I don't think many Tankers can survive at the aggro cap indefinitely running on just SOs. I do think that an SR Tank would do a better job of it than Shield would since it would be at 40% def vs 28% and immune to def debuffs. (I'm too busy to compute out immortality lines atm and I don't have access to Arcana's spreadsheet, either.)

Don't forget an SR Tanker would have 40% more health and 33% stronger passive resists.

Yep, I agree that SR hits a wall with IOs and won't have anywhere to progress. I don't think that is an important point (to the devs). Reason being, if they design sets to perform between X-2 and X+2, allowing SR to be X+3 is outside their allowance even if IOs characters can go to X+5.

Why? They can datamine to find out how many people heavily use IOs. They also aren't only trying to balance "end game" (though they no doubt keep it in mind). They're also balancing how people perform while leveling up. This also doesn't just include veterans who know the system inside and out, but also those who just started playing last week.

I think having high SO performance would effect more people than you'd think.

What do you consider "near softcapped defense"? I consider 40% to be pretty close.

...I need more spare time so I can crunch this out properly. :\

I agree, SR should have more defense or be changed to have more utility/survivability by other means. I'm not arguing that point, nor am I ignorant to the other benefits other sets like Shield possess. My point was SR probaby has too much defense/survivability on a Tank utilizing only SOs.

As I said, there isn't a set in the game that offers over 30% def to everything on just SOs.* There are sets that can situationally get more (Invuln - 32% with saturated Invin, Ice - 34.52%/38.44% with saturated EA (unslotted/slotted)), but not guaranteed, always on, and practically undebuffable with just SOs. I don't think that is a coincidence. Just like reordering sets or breaking the Cottage Rule are taboo, I suspect that over 30%-35% in set def is as well.

To rephrase my argument:
To be balanced compared to other sets like Shield, SR does need something more. On Brutes/Scrappers that is more defense. When ported to a Tank, that extra def gets inflated to dangerous levels that no other sets currently has. I would suspect plan would be to lower SR's in set def to 30-35% and give it "something else" to compensate. The problem is, what could "something else" be that would be balanced, thematically fit, and not step on the toes of other sets?

Does that make more sense?


* Exception to prove the rule: Stone Armor/Granite. Massive debuffs associated with it, and still has a psi hole.

Note: I'm only speaking for myself and my observations of what the devs have done in the past. I could be completely wrong on this point. If I were a dev, however, it would be my logic against a straight port of SR.

Shield Defense

• 6 powers for defense (Shield+Hover+CJ+Weave), 3 slots each, 2 in CJ, and 3 powers for prerequesites
• 1 power for status protection, 3 slots
• 1 power for a taunt aura (AAO), 0 extra slots

Total: 10 powers, 14 slots, 3 pools


Notes:

• Doesn't count slotting for extra things like Tough, res on Deflection, etc.
• SR will have superior defense resistance.
  • 1 def SO in each toggle/passive will essentially cap your def resistance (93%). This means defense from outside sources can reduce slotting in, say, the passives without losing def resistance, unlike a Scrapper.
• Shield is consuming considerably more endurance.
• (Just as an aside, you can't use Shield Charge while Hovering, iirc.)

The real kick in the pants for the Shield build is eating 3 pools. If they want Stamina (pretty much assumed), then they have their 4 pools locked. I'd say, for SOs, SR would have the edge. (It's no comparison with IOs, Shield is definitely better - but again, SR peaks high early.)

With SOs, people are essentially handed that level of performance. They don't really need to work at it, they don't need to take or slot powers that unusually. When you factor in locking yourself into 3/4 pools or include IOs, it's something that you have to make an effort to achieve.

Keep in mind that the forum populace is generally more well educated in game mechanics than people who don't read the forums. While it may seem easy for you to conceive / create a Shield Tank build that is soft capped with minimal investment, I think it's dubious most would.

A few things:

• No def resistance to speak of.
• It requires you to hit in order to keep your defense up.
• Doesn't help vs the alpha strike, since it takes time to stack.
• It is only against a single position and type (melee/lethal).
• Can be broken through rech debuffs.
• It requires a specific primary (Kat/BS) and secondary (SR), rather than just one or the other. (Kat/BS can do it with SOs, however.)

It has more ways to fail, especially at low levels. Have you noticed that BS and Katana haven't been ported to Tankers (goes from 30% double stacked def unenhanced to 40% for a Tanker)?

I can't say that is the reason, just like I can't say for certain that's why SR hasn't been ported, but I would speculate that def inflation due to AT mods is something they're keeping a close eye on.

The entire problem of the def/res mechanics is that they stack linearly with non-linear results. Going from 25% def to 30% def or going from 40% to 45% def is only an increase of 5% def for both, but the results vary wildly (25% more survivability vs 100% more). (I know you know this, Bill.)

There are various ways this could be prevented, either by diminishing returns on buffs, lower def caps for different ATs, or different mechanics altogether.*

SR's balance problem stems from the fact it relies very heavily on defense. I wouldn't call it broken on a Scrapper at all. However, when scaled up to Tanker levels (40% def), it becomes far stronger than it should be with SOs alone. Of course, because it relies so heavily on defense, it doesn't have nearly as much room to grow with IOs compared to other sets. For example, which would you trust to take more abuse, a soft capped SR Tank or a soft capped Invuln Tank?

Using an F-Zero analogy, SR Tankers would be this:



And other sets (Invuln, Shield, etc) are this:



Tanker SR's peak isn't the problem; it's that the peak comes too soon/easily (SOs).


* I'm not supporting any of these ideas, mind you. I'm just showing how things could be modified.


[edit: Btw, take a look at how much defense most sets sport with just SOs, regardless of AT. I don't think any set offers much more than 30% def out of the box. (EA has 32% energy def.) That is pretty much where the mitigation scaling from defense gets silly. Also, iirc, pushing an enemy under 20% tohit chance is where the streak breaker turns skyrockets to 100 misses in a row.]

Well, if they straight ported SR to Tanks, they would have 40% def to all with SOs alone. Slotted CJ would put them 1.1% away from the softcap. While that is (so far) an acceptable goal for an IO build, that is a bit too strong for a plain SO build.

I believe Arcana pointed this out before, but it would make SRs with Tough (assuming the passive resists get scaled up due to AT mods) behave very strangely against s/l mobs. An SR's effective health would steadily drop until ~55-60% health. As their health drops below that, their effective health increases...

(I really wish they'd fix the [code] tag. Stopgap: Copy & paste it into Notepad.)