QiSnake

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Been reading through some of this stalker bashing, okay fine, stalker are unbeatable, right, can I ask if you have even been to Sirens Call?


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Can I ask if you have even read my replies properly?
This isnt stalker bashing, go back and check again.

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I have an idea, heroes shouldn't be allowed to put lvl 41+ heroes on the map, full stop, not just with adjusted levels, just not on there, because we (villains) cannot put lvl 41+'s on the map, talk about cheap cowards and watch for the lvl 50 running out in large mobs.


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So you have no problem with the level 50 villains stomping all over the lower heroes then (when you can hit level 50)? People are under the blind impression that their side is massively outnumbered, but people on both sides are saying that, and i've seen outnumbered villains and outnumbered heroes. The level offset is temporary, and yes that does make it pretty unfair, but in even numbers i've seen hero teams with level 50's get stomped on. (SC)
BTW "Just another stalker bashing thread" is pretty inaccurate, seeing as we were actually orbiting the conversation about making PVP more skillbased. Its my fault I went on a tangent about evening up the hide/detect rules around stalkers, but to me, that has a lot to do with skill when you consider how they COULD tweak things.

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Stalkers dont have an unfair advantage at all and its daft to say they have. The whole AT is designed to be used to attack from stealth and disappear, that is our purpose like Rogues in WoW (who incidentally are more not less powerful in comparison). We are assassins we attack from stealth and kill quickly, which means we are quite severely gimped by the level of how much Hide is compromised by perception abilities. We should not be totally invisible but perception should be based on a chance to see us not a guarantee we can be seen half a zone away.


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Isnt that what i've been saying this whole time? The thing is, NCSoft could bring out an archetype called "Powerganker", with infinite hitpoints, and one unresistable 100% accuracy ranged instakill power called "gank". Just because its there, doesnt mean it couldnt use a little tweak to make things a little better, y'know? :P

Yes, hide IS gimped by perception powers, but as I was saying, those powers should only effect a cone of vision, forcing stalkers to use some skill and attack from outside the characters visual range... and even use cunning to stay out of view as they move in for the attack... but at the same time of course it should be impossible for a stalker to remain hidden at melee range with four people staring at them. The more I talk about it, the more I do in fact realise that it is near impossible to make room for 'skill'.
*rubs his head*

Bah, tell you what, forget what I was saying. Give us heroes a stalker-style AT, and we'll see how that goes :3

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As for stalkers ganging up, thats no different from the groups of Heroes grouped up ganking individuals by themselves at 10-1 disadvantages that I see in Sirens Call on a nightly basis.


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Oh, the numbers thing again. Funny, every time -I- go into SC (defiant), villains outnumber the heroes. Not cripplingly outnumbered normally, but sometimes so. And yes, I think it is different. With heroes, you actually have the chance to run away or do something before you perish. Against ten stalkers, how exactly would someone without the necessary level-1 powerset choices be able to do -anything- against them? The fact is, stalkers are kind of like controllers, when they're good they're great, when they're bad they're terrible. With one vital difference. No matter how strong the controller, you can escape them and you can hurt them. Stalkers? Unless you are deliberately geared up to detect them, you -dont- have a chance.

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The thing is people dont like the fact that we are pretty much the only AT with the ability to one hit kill out of nowhere.


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No duh. Heh

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As for cowards, Stalkers are not a cowardly class we are a survival and stealth class.


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Agreed, but its your archetypes nature to be cowardly. People just get annoyed when you can click a button and win, when they can struggle to get you into red, only to see you vanish thanks to a travel power, only to die themselves moments later. Its easy to feel robbed, but its the nature of the archetype that gained the 'coward' reputation. In the end, hit and run is the only real tactic you can use to increase your chances of survival. Also worth noting, stalkers arent the only cowards, i've seen tankers and brutes run like hell after a controller/corrupter struggled them down into low health (with most holds and effects resisted outright). This of course is a valid PVP tactic, simply staying alive. It just bugs people, and no matter how levelheaded they might be, eventually they'll want to gripe, unfortuantely.

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If you want to see cowardly watch the groups of fully slotted level 50 heroes grouped up in large numbers ganking individual villains in Sirens Call on a nightly basis. Stalkers a lot of the time attack solo which is a lot to be said about a lot of the other AT's.


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Thats because stalkers very often dont NEED anyone else to help them make a kill, they practically have a kill bound to a button. The group-ganking is a two way deal, it happens on both sides, just as much as TP'ing idle characters out of the safezones does.

But the one ongoing constant behind all discussions on stalkers, is this defensiveness. By all means, be defensive, but at least keep in mind what I was ACTUALLY talking about. Its annoying when people take what you say as simply outright knocking all stalker-players, im suggesting alterations to stalking/detecting as it currently stands. Its VERY easy to simply say the 'other side' is unfair and needs to be nerfed, but if you look at the situation with an honest eye, both sides have a hard time of it.

I dont have any more suggestions to add to the subject of stalkers/detectors, at least in any relevant manner for the thread, and the others are just doing the blind defense thing, so perhaps we should shuffle off the subject and focus on something else... but unfortunately all this needless defending of a simple premise is making my head spin, so no more for now :P

There was a thread recently in the general discussion area, that pointed out that Star Wars Galaxies went down the cludgie because they tried to make it too action-oriented, oversimplified things and generally demolished what was a winning formula. With that in mind, we/I shouldnt wish for too many changes, because i'd hate to see it turn out like that..

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With the amount of Heroes with perception based abilities its a rare day when you can move across a zone without being seen at distance.


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Actually the distance spotting is a bug, it seems. Stalkers are visible at long-distances for tiny flickering periods of time for some reason, as for constant sight at long distance, you've got me, there. I have to strongly disagree, most of my time in PVP zones, stalkers are exceptionally hard to detect. The only time I saw my first stalker who was hiding was last night. IR goggles, two stacked clear-minds, two yellow inspirations. Maybe its due to the original levels that we were exemped from, or maybe my controller for some reason isnt just very good at it... or maybe im just plain wrong and need more experience to get a more accurate view. To be honest my PVP experience is far from extensive, but some things come down to just observation.

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I find most of my AS strikes come from using Placate as I'm rumbled fairly early on, the remainder comes from a painstaking hunt trying to approach out of my prey's line of site. In most cases the only purpose of hide in PvP is to generate our crit for AS.


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Why is this? Are there actually any detection powers that rely on line-of-sight? As far as I had heard, there wasnt such a power..
As for hiding being used for just AS, I think that must just be mostly a personal opinion, because hide is what often keeps a stalker safest, and is (along with AS) the most currently questioned part of a stalker.

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Requires a fair bit of skill to be a Stalker in mass PvP especially considering the Hero to Villains ratio.


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What hero to villain ratio would that be? In my experience, either side completely dominates, equal-teams dont happen as often as we would like (because thats pretty damn fun), but I wouldnt just assume that heroes always completely outweigh the villains. Many times i've gone into SC only to find we're massively outnumbered, and combat is impossible without others to arrive.

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The only times we have it easy is in a one versus one scenario where we have the luxury of total surprise....doesnt happen often though


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You have to be kidding, right? Stalkers surprising their target is a rare event? :P Oh, well, if you mean "we dont get total surprise, because everyone expects to randomly be skewered by stalkers", then I see your point.

That reminds me, its just not funny when someone can AS you but remain invisible (untargettable). Those few times that happens, even the combat panel doesnt show who attacked you and how much for.. *scratches his head*

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Its actually quite difficult to be a successful stalker, against perception based powers we CAN be detected. Not only that but we have to get close to a target to do the Assassin Strike, all whilst avoiding AOE moves and making sure we dont become visible in the middle of a mob that can aggro.

And don't even get me started on what happens if we miss with the AS.


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While true, the point remains that if your hide is strong enough to keep you concealed even with enemy perception powers running, the amount of effort required for the stalker, is simply to get close to the target, then AS. I know that is oversimplified, but thats basically how it is. What do you do if AS doesnt hit? You placate, then run like hell, then hide, then wait for placate to recharge. If there is too much to placate, you run anyway and hide. If you die in the process of running away, its not always due to the fact that stalkers are weak in direct combat, sometimes thats just the way fights go. Turning your back on the enemy to run, and hope your travelpower kicks back in in time, isnt always a great idea... and its no excuse to NOT look at AS and wonder if something could be tweaked. I do agree that stalkers should have more to rely upon when AS fails, but some of the stalkers i've seen, fought, and watched in combat, are hellishly hard to hit, even when they dont run or try to instantly hide again. As I said before, the strong should excel, but that shouldnt mean the mediocre completely lose out on PVP. At least with strong players/characters of another archetype, you have some chance of running, losing them, then finding a more suitable target until they catch up and demolish you. Thats part of competetive gaming, there is a pecking order sometimes, and you can end up simply being the prey. Thats fine. But when you cant even see or respond to the incoming predator -at all-, then the only choice a person has left, is to leave the PVP zone and hope that when they return, there isnt another stalker of the same skill around.

Although you -can- be detected when you are hidden, the current way the balance is set up, is that good stalkers can only be spotted if you have heroes in the zone with specific powers to help reveal you. IR goggles, tactics and yellows together do not reveal 'competant' stalkers, and coupled with your AS ability which can easily one-shot squishies and sometimes the not-so squishies, it is the perfect unbalancing archetype for PVP. Unfortunately, a general rule of thumb says that if you're squishy and you're AS'ed, you're dead, and if you arent, you will be in a moment. Even if you can see a stalker, they can still AS you provided the "hidden" state is applied.

Last night is a great example, I have been with heroes in Sirens Call before, and outnumbered, but we normally manage to at least have a little fun and at the very lease, worry them in combat. But last night, at first, there was only one stalker. If I ever attempted to join the combat, I was a threat, and a few seconds later, I would instantly faceplant. Thats all part of PVP, true enough. What happens when you have THREE stalkers in there, amongst other villains? If one can instakill, what can three do? Naturally, me and the other two heroes there decided to wait in the safe-zone for more heroes to arrive, because we got sick of having about 10-seconds playtime between deaths. Now, the coming rule of preventing 1-shot kills from stalkers is great, that might help, but what is to stop them from just using brawl straight afterwards? Some strong players have little trouble AS'ing through my personal forcefield, and if/when it doesnt instantly kill me, they hit brawl before they finish AS'ing, and it hits a split second afterwards finishing me off. Stalkers are all in all, a recipe for ganking. I know its not all peaches-and-cream as a stalker, but given that the better part of your work is decided by which powers you've picked, and not how you use them, it just leaves me shaking my head. Yes, I know its made impossible for you to AS if people are using certain annoying powers, that needs to be changed too. Im saying a stalkers shouldnt rely -solely- on AS and placate. Yes, there are exceptions to this generalised stalker view, the villain "Stalk-obot" is a fine example of that, but how often do you meet stalkers like that?

PVP isnt PVP if by default, some classes have next to zero chance to find a stalker, and some classes have an overwhelming probability to instantly die in one hit from them. How does such a player do -anything- in a PVP zone? Find a team? Thats a great idea, only they arent always available, and all players should at least be able to hold their own for a short time in 1vs1. There should be no such thing as the absolute impossibility to fight back, that goes for BOTH sides of the stalker fence, and that is why im trying to think of something that could be done.

It annoys me to no end when people attempt to compare stalkers to other archetypes. Such comparisons are rarely accurate or taken in any realistic context, this isnt a battle to say "NERF t3h STALKERZ!!1" or "stalkers r lamez0r", this is a thread to suggest PVP more skill based, and stalking/detection is the one greatest thorns that sticks out in my mind right now, as well as a stalkers lack of focus on anything other than AS. Particularly of note is the fact that only the ninjitsu secondary is the only one with any helping 'traps' of sorts, shouldnt the other secondaries have something similar, too?

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Based on this argument, then, blaster blasts would only have to work if you didn't move after they'd fired since technically everything (with exception to psychic blasts since they're mind-to-mind) would travel in a straight line instead of curving as they do now.


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But that is taking what I say out of context, I was saying that it feels out of place. I can appreciate the need to make things unrealistic to make sure things look better (curling energyshots, punching a target that moved out of range). The difference is, the amount of distance you can put between yourself and an AS'er is pretty huge, and its a melee attack, not a snipershot (despite how the game actually works it out). Im saying that whereas normal melee attacks still effect you no matter the distance, im saying that something doesnt feel right about it. Hiding behind walls to avoid a melee attack doesnt feel right. If my tankers knockout-blow can still hit when someone has moved behind a wall (after animation), then shouldnt AS? As it stands, AS isnt treated as a melee attack, its treated as a ranged attack of sorts with a very short range to activate it. I dont claim to have the solutions here, im just saying it feels rough edged. Something really doesnt feel right about getting to -that- distance before something downs you, and given that it drops two toggles (it was two toggles, wasnt it?) us fliers end up falling. If we dont know the AS is coming, we often end up falling into NPCs, and thats just annoying :P
There is a scope of inconsistancy in the combat system, I know, but this just sticks out in my mind.

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Well, I've tried hitting blasters who would jump all around the hot spots in Sirenes (or run, or fly). So with a reduced ranged it'd still be next to impossible.


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Yeah, that is pretty troublesome..It looks like one of those things that'll be impossible to strike a balance with. The stalker is a great AT in theory, but it just doesnt seem to fit in, IMO. Being such a specialist AT, its bound to have some nasty difficulties and great advantages, but to me, it seems to have more of an unbalancing effect. Some say the stalkers are just like 'diet' scrappers with a cripplingly powerful attack, some are like that, but some stalkers i've seen are exeptionally frail. The diet scrapper idea would be great, if that extra strength meant the assassin strike wasnt so powerful... blargh. Im really dry on ideas.

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I can't really see PvP in a multiplayer RPG being more skillbased than knowing what the class you are fighting are voulnerable to. If you want pure skill, I agree with Hobo, find a multiplayer FPS, but this isn't total disregard to the OP.


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Maybe you're right. But I just like to dream a wee bit, y'know? :3

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You CAN get out of range from an AS strike, the AS animation is performed, it doesnt hit (not a miss) and you stay hidden but you ahve to wait for the power to build back up.


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Any idea what the max range for AS then?

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Sorry, but that would make ASing anyone but those AFK completely impossible (OK, so hold/stuns would make it possible, but not everyone has a power like that, and even then you'd need to hide again). You can't really expect someone to keep in meele range with a long charge time power that can be interrupted.


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Im not suggesting that any one change be made on its own. Changing simply one thing, or tweaking one stat, would most likely only make the situation worse.

Another thing I should probably bring up, is the way NPC's keep aggro on a stalker even after re-hidden. Yes, I know placate is good for that, but doesnt that feel like a pain in the behind? That should be tweaked too, imo :3

Oh, and whilst we're at it. Archelon still needs a yellow lightsaber with an in-built ipod and pretzel vendor.

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Sorry, but that would make ASing anyone but those AFK completely impossible (OK, so hold/stuns would make it possible, but not everyone has a power like that, and even then you'd need to hide again). You can't really expect someone to keep in meele range with a long charge time power that can be interrupted.


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True, but there have been times i've seen someone working up to AS me, but I couldnt target them for some reason (they were still transparent, couldnt click/tab onto them). Most melee attacks to my knowledge, still hit even if the target gets a distance away from you at the point of impact... 'knockout blow' for instance, is a nasty uppercut with a bit of wind-up time. Its not much, but a target can still get away from you but still recieve the damage. I can understand the reasoning for this, as normally the animation of the attack is just added fluff to keep the games superhero/villain/action feel. The problem is, AS acts like a snipershot. In my thinking, if there is a period of time when you can interrupt the attack, shouldnt it also check for distance too? I cant quite think of any way around this, but given the strength of AS, the fact it ignores distance does seem like too much.

It doesnt have to be -absolute- melee range, stalkers are supposed to be stealth classes, they shouldnt be able to 'tag' a target who runs by at high speed, finally AS'ing him at the end of the wind-up when he's halfway down the second block. Isnt that what your auto-critical from hiding is supposed to be for? Yes, I realise that reveals you, and unless you kill them quick, you're toast. I guess it would be nice to see a trap-like technique in each of the secondary sets for stalkers (other than ninjitsu which already has caltrops).

Well, maybe im just bad at PVP then :3
If two CMs can reveal stalkers well, then thats great, now all I have to do is sucker an empath into PVP with me when I go.. but the place is normally pretty deserted when I go..

One thing that I do seem to keep seeing, is that for every 10 strangely blind heroes who cant seem to detect stalkers no matter what they wear, use or have active, there are just as many stalkers who cant quite seem to get within a miles distance to their targets without hearing "NINJA!!1, sound the village alarm!"..
There is definately some gray area here, and it seems if you're not part of the strong detection/strong hiding elite, you're screwwed. In PVP, the strong should thrive, I agree, but the mediocre should not be made completely unable to respond to stalker threat, or even get close for a near-hit.

The weaker will always have harder times in PVP, but it shouldnt be impossible for them either. A mediocre hero should at least be able to spot a stalker at the last moment and make a panic effort to stay alive, and a mediocre stalker should at least be able to dash into melee from a nearby place without being instantly spotted and revealed.

Its nice to know the PVP crowd is 'feeling' the stalker balance right now, but we shouldnt need to excel just to get a sliver of a chance, im just saying that there are far too many people stuck in a gray area to really be ignored (because if you ignore us, we'll breed, then we'll invade your homes). When the house of omnidetection gets stronger, so must the house of omnihiding. The better just keep getting better to just be able to compete, and us mere mortals (casual/passing PVPers) simply dont get a look in.

Or maybe im just bad at PVP as I originally said, but I still think its too much when some stalker is humping my leg, screaming "Jeeeeziz loves ya baaaybeh!" repeatedly, I think I should be able to see them, or at least make a wild guess that if I wave my machete around randomly I should be able to scratch them. :P

For PVP, enhancement nullification might be an idea, but after thinking about it its probably a bad idea. I just think that SK'ing people up or down in level when entering a PVP zone just doesnt really work as well as it should, original level still counts for a lot, and so do enhancements. Not necessary, was just a thought.

As for the entire stalker hide/detect deal, perception bonuses could perhaps only be applied to a cone of vision in front of a person, meaning that even stalkers who would otherwise find themselves constantly detected, actually have a chance of getting a hit in by actual skill, and not just stat-weaving At the same time, it would be nice if even a strongly hidden opponent could be revealed, if they were stared at for long enough in the open. It does seem a bit overkill to literally bounce off them as you walk, and not reveal them, but its just so hard to think of a way to balance it out..

The stalker hide/detection deal seems to be the thing that needs the most work right now, and to be honest I just dont enjoy trying to raise stalkers because of how its completely skillless for the actual stalking part, especially in PVE. Although its handy in PVE, in PVP the assassin strike should only apply at melee range. Its not funny to see the echoing outline of a stalker winding up to AS you, but still hit you even though you've gotten about 100 meters away from them, that definately needs a fix :P

What about creating areas on the maps where the speed of hiding is increased (dark shadow) and areas where hiding is slowed or prevented (light areas or heavily illuminated, featureless rooms). If thats too much work for them to put into existing maps, they could just set that during the night, hide kicks in faster, and in day, it doesnt? I dont know, im just throwing ideas out here..

Even from the beta, my impression of the stalker was that it was a good idea in theory, but it just really falls short of what it -could- be. I mean come on, I know this is supposed to be heroes and villains at work here, but the stalkers need more fleshing out.

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I've said it once and I'll say it again: Stalkers have one trick, and one trick only. You take away their ability to be the assassin class (which is what they're SUPPOSED to be) and you may as well remove the whole AT from the game.


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Nobody is suggesting we take away the stalkers ability to stalk or AS effectively, we're suggesting we make it harder for them to walk up to a circle of 8 heroes all covered in tactics, hiding behind overturned tables and wearing empty dishes as helmets, wearing 15 pairs of IR goggles each (wile-coyote style), then stand in front of said hero group wearing a full compliment of supernova-grade christmas tree lights, and use the dance and slap emotes for 15 hours without being spotted.

At the same time, if a stalker can stand nose-to-nose with a character/group running several +perception powers, for an extended period of time without even a flicker of visibility, something needs to be changed. That isnt removing a stalkers ability to stalk, thats called making a stalker WORK for their kill. Similarly, no hero should ever be able to instantly see a stalker either. I have heard of individuals spotting stalkers the moment they appear on the horizon, and whilst I find that sadisticly funny for some reason, that is just as unfair.

Its not hard to comprehend :
Stalker that cannot hide at all = Crippled, entirely unfair.
Stalker that can rub its bum in the face of a hero for 4 hours, whilst screaming out the "Crazy Frog" tune, but still be completely undetected save for hovering local chat saying "Baaaababadeeebabababaaaafweeee!!!11one" = Also totally unfair.

Balancing shouldnt just be just about tweaking the potency of powers, and as much as i'd love to say stalkers hiding abilities (not strikes) are just overpowered, I think the entire hide/detect deal is off balance. I dont mind being AS'ed if the stalker actually puts a remote amount of effort into stalking me, rather than just putting me on 'follow' whilst hidden, and having broadcast conversations until they so feel like AS'ing me.

For those stalkers who have found a hero who seems to detect them without fail, did you manage to take note of what level they were? Likewise, for us heroes who seem to have tried everything and cannot see a stalker, if possible, sacrifice a respawn to find out their level through the info..

Its probable the double-hand overhead smash move wasnt actually haymaker, but "Air Superiority", meaning that all fly powers are ineffective for a while. That might explain the falling, at least.

Did you notice any signs of lag on the way down? You might have taken some kind of damage in during a lagspike, and the result is a glitch in the combat windows report..

If you're suffering residual damage (chill from a freeze attack, on fire, any kind of DoT with a decent timer on it), the fall can reduce you to 1hp and the residual can finish you.

Thats funny, when my team "The Underdogs" was entering the S4, you kept telling us that we had no chance to win, due to the PVP builds of the enemy we would face.

Skill doesnt mean just artfully crafting a finely balanced PVP character, and it shouldnt just come down to having the upper hand in stats either. I have very rarely seen an opponent use actual cunning or trickery beyond basic 'baiting', running away when the odds arent in your favor, or throwing around stealth temp powers or stacking leadership abilities. There should be no such thing as an invincible tactic, or an inpenetratable defense, but very often you'll find that it simply comes down to statistics, not skill.
For the anti-stalkers AND stalkers, how many times has fights counted entirely on the number of stacked stealth/perception powers? Balancing issue? Pretty much. Balancing shouldnt doesnt just mean tweaking the values, it should mean changing the things that are throwing things out of whack. Its not an easy thing to work with, I know, but look at stalkers.

So as I said before, the trouble with PVP, is its all about the stats, not the skill. Skill is something you cant rehearse or pre-calculate or purposely choose at character generation. The game doesnt allow for a great deal of skill, and eventually only really comes down to experience and statistics, then at a further stretch, whether or not the player has raised/respec'd their character for PVP.

It would be nice for a stalker and its victim to not worry about how many stealth/perception powers they have active, but whether or not the victim it staring directly at them, or where the assassin might approach them from. I know that stealth/perception things arent the only things that throw things seriously out of whack, but they provide the best example.

Would be quite funny to have a base defense that looks like an innocent statue / bust of the SG leader, but when a placed pressure-pad/sensor is tripped, it becomes an active, pivoting turret that fires lasers from the eyes and a flamethrower in the mouth.
xD

Or actual doorways instead of huge square chunks cut out of walls, that you cant decorate or alter..

The abbreviated version reads as follows :

The problem with PVP, is that its more about the stats, and far less about the skill.

Generally, if I was hoping to pull off a 1on1 fight without having someone jump in on us, I dont have much choice but to accept it when eventually someone jumps in. We might not like it, but that is the way of the PVP zone. We're entitled to a bit of a gripe, and I dont mind people griping back at me so long as they dont go too far (helps clear the air, right?). Its just when people suddenly lose the ability to form sentances without composing them entirely out of explitives, it just gets annoying.

I have to admit, I get PO'ed as much as the next person when things go pearshaped, but its a competetive area, what can we expect? Provided the enemy can pick themselves back up again, and get back into the fight without throwing personal grudges around, I think its all fine and groovy. If they make it personal, and somehow think that flooding broadcast/tells with "u r dum dgos but arkilon!1", then the headache tablet industry gets a business boost..

This is a good point. The reason why there are so many tiny supergroups, isnt quite so much because of groups of friends trying to start up on their own, its because people who pay to buy CoV want to actually try making a base. Its one of the game features, so they'd rather have a shot themselves, instead of have someone else make a base -for- them... it stands to reason.

I still think it would be a really good idea if there was some kind of 'appartment' thing for us to play with. Bases have hellish costs, but sometimes all we actually want is a place to hang out, without the fear of being ambushed when we go afk. It would be pretty good just to have a small base-zone, that an individual can operate seperate from the SG. One that restricts nearly every functional base item, but leaves a few open to buy, and just gives you a place to kick back.

A lot of RP'ers and non-RP'ers would be thankful that people could take their roleplay out of the open, some people get irritated by it, and others get irritated being interrupted while they do it.

Hmm, not entirely. If they implemented a short debt-protection when engaged in a fight with someone from the opposide side, you could also cancel all experience gain whilst you're debt protected too.

Going AFK in the PVP zones is just asking for trouble. Leaving an AFK'er alive only means that someone else will pick them off and get the reputation you could have grabbed. I've seen people go AFK in the PVP zones for about an hour at a time, they're long-dead but just dont time-out. That gets irritating because if they are your target, you cant change it.

My tactics vary, depending on if I have a bad history with that PVP'er. My general PVP ethic is that if I am completely outmatched, and I dont feel like my normal suicidal attempted-hold spree, i'll run. If we're relately close in power, i'll stay and fight to the end (even if I have to lose, if they can give me a fight, they deserve the kill). If I notice they're significantly weaker before the fight, i'll avoid them. If I have a group of friends, we never attack people we drastically outnumber unless they attack first. It does lead to paranoid glances at their real level though.

Once a fight has started, the gloves come off. The only mercy I ever show, would be if we end up swamped by lots of minions. Being a controller, I can normally hold them off whilst fighting the villain. I get guilt trips though, there is nothing worse than holding someone, and then having to race against a nearby comp-controlled enemy to get the kill.

We (me and my SG mates) never attack someone engaged in PVE, if we're in a hotspot, we make a point of not attacking them unless they attack first. Being a controller gives me that option, once a player comes at us, I normally have something I can use to escape with if needed. Otherwise I might throw a force bolt at 'em just to be annoying

Its hard to really set any concrete rules. Some people really deserve to be handled rough, but generally most people are at least a little careful. I avoid giving them debt, and try to engage them with at least a half-[censored] amount of honor

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and why arent u in sirens anymore


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Losing interest in CoH/V, so im taking it easy, not playing as much. I'll be back before too long

That actually sounds pretty sexy

Someone came up with the idea before that when struck by a player-villain/hero, you should be protected from debt for a short period. I cant count the number of times I had just finished a fight with a group of NPC's, only to get AS'd by a stalker, but got debt anyway. Why? Because I was suffering a -1 of damage, every 3 seconds, due to the residual damage of a 'psychic scream'. Y'know, DoT like when you're on fire, the psychic Arachnos units give you it.

If a stalker is kind enough not to jump straight in for the easy kill, and does the honorable thing of waiting until the NPC fight is over, they shouldnt have the guilt of dropping me into debt, and I shouldnt have the full outdoor-grade debt someone gets when they're clumsy. For petes sake, they should at least make it the half-rate debt you get when you're indoors. Even if they had to cut the experience down a little.

There should also be some kind of calculation, that works out how much damage was done between an NPC and a player-enemy. It would be FAR more reasonable, to give the player debt based on how much damage the NPC did. If the NPC only did 15% of the damage that KO'ed you, then perhaps you should only recieve 15% of the normal debt?

What can I say? Some people are just obnoxiously unintelligent sometimes. Fair enough they might have been annoyed, but a person can only take so much hassle before they just want out, right?

As it was said, if you cant use CM, then stalkers cant use hide, controllers cant use any holds, brutes and tankers dont get use toggles, blasters cant used ranged attacks.. and so forth. If you have powers, use them. Be brutal, but dont deliberately ruin the fun for others where you can help it.

The only thing you shouldnt do in PVP is deliberately try to get people into debt, or deliberately ruin their fun. If they happen to find it boring getting whupped all the time, then that is an unfortunate consequence, but calling a power a cheat is just blatant idiocy. I could understand it, if someone was seriously going over the top (mental image of a stalker surrounded by 30 people with "grant invisibility", and a pile of bodies in the safe zone, just behind the zone gate), but this is just it, CM is a common power amongst the users of your powertype..

If they have a problem, they really should just come here and write in the suggestion forum, proposing ways to balance stuff up, or make things more enjoyable. Just... bah, ignore them where you can, there will always be people trying to make you look like a troublemaker.

I personally think that mixing computer-controlled mobs and bases is a great idea IF it is kept seperate from PVP raids. There will be a lot of smaller bases out there that wont be getting items of power, either out of lack of prestige, or a lack of desire to get jumped by every massive SG. It would be great, however, to have some form of PVE activity within bases (for those not interested in PVP), like a certain group attempting to attack your base. I have no ideas as to how it would be pulled off, but just because SG bases turned out to be PVP oriented, it doesnt instantly mean that it couldnt benefit from some element of PVE.

I think that it would be annoying to have enemy mobs spawn during a PVP raid, even as guards. Realistic as it may be, in these bases its like littering the floor with "debt bombs", but at the same time, heroes are forced to face stalkers and brutes, and villains are forced to suffer blasters and controllers, so does 'annoyance factor' really make up a good reason not to add mobs in some form?

What about when a base raid takes place, and the teams arent even? Im not sure on the mechanics of base raids, but as I understand it, a raid can take place and the odds can be very one-sided in numbers. Evening those odds with computer-controller enemies wouldnt be too bad.

Although it does feel like there will be annoyance involved if it ever gets worked in, I dont think its worth outright throwing the idea away just because of peoples desire to keep bases oriented entirely on PVP.

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Yeah after checking my brute who has nothing like 400 pvp points but had done a load of missions in the zones it seems that you do get the badges for the missions and a lot faster too. I wonder if its a bug


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Yeah, same here. It sounds like the game is mistakenly counting computer-controlled villains in the PVP score, even if it doesnt update or show a change on your actual PVP counter.. I did enough missions to gather 400 pvp points, if that was the case.