Peregrin

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I understand that part. I know that I typed alot. Basicaly I was wondering more about players who like a published arc, but it gets unpublished when they want to do it at a later time with friends or with another character. I was not expecting to redo the arc right then and there, most likely within a day or two.

Basically if a published arc is played by someone who likes it, and wants to run it at a later time, but finds it is unplublished for whatever reason, what does one do? It may not have been up long enough for to earn a rating of "hall of fame" or getting "Dev Choice." If you remember the creator and arc name do you bug/beg them for a copy or request it republished? And that could overwhelm some lucky folks.

Even if a fanbased method is created or simple email sent to pass around and share, how will credit to the original creator of the arc or NPC group be maintained, short of not sharing it.

I know I would hate to share an arc I created, that eventually gets republished unchanged by someone else and get they get the special honors or Dev Choice. I know anything I create with MA is not really mine, but there is a prize and a benefit for composing arc that is rated as a 5 and is popular.

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I've seen hints of some kind of security so that you can share missions/arcs and they cannot publish it and take credit for it, but currently cannot find that info.

Other than that, yeah, you're going to have to beg the creator to put it back up.

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If I end up making more than 3 arcs, I plan on putting a 'Mission' Catalogue on my web site. Basically, I'll put a brief description of my different arcs and an option to contact me for when you'd like to have access to the arc. I expect that two of my arcs will be static and the third will be pulished on demand.

I'm also offering space to other registered site members for the same... it's just a bit of text and a message system, after all. Some restrictions will apply, but chances are, no heavier than what's already in game.

Message me here if you're interested. I'm still working on the web site and I can let you know when it's truely ready for public consumption.

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Blasters do not get a combat pet as part of their set. Fire Controllers do, as their level 32 power.

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I have an Electric Blaster with a combat pet (Voltaic Sentinel), so there are exceptions. But Voltaic Sentinel is a bonus. It in no way compares to Fire Imps or Jack Frost.

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Malaise has been made a hero again already, its just happened "off panel" as it were. He shows up as a hero in CoV, he's back in the Vindicators.

Also, for Hero-1 getting riktified, just check the cover of the final CoH Comic. Like so. Also, this thread.

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Nice links there.

The Malaise thing is weak. On their part, not yours. Lately they seem to be messing up the continuity more and more. Meh.... Maybe Marvel will start another lawsuit for that... JK

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When we turn our eyes to the future we see some pretty awesome stuff coming together. New costumes, new temp powers and new inventions. A villain group returns with a dramatic change that will shake the very foundation of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles. An old friend returns as an enemy. Enemies will become friends. Issue 10 and beyond is really shaping up nicely!


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First, thanks for the update. I think these State of the Game messages are a great idea.

So, onto the posssibilities:
-A villain group returns = 5th Column Return. Lets say, led by the Reichsman.
-An old friend returns as an enemy = Hero 1 Leads a new Rikti invasion of Paragon and the Rogue Isles
-Enemies become friends = Co-Op Zones dealing with the above. At an extreme, perhaps cross over, but I consider that doubtful

And while all this content sounds very exciting, its when it gets delivered that will be critical. Hopefully future issues will not take as long to devlop, if a hold is put on developing new systems or new graphical gew-gaws.

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Sorry to burst any bubbles, but I'd guess the old friend would be Malaise. If my lore is correct, he went nuts on Sister Psy and hasn't been seen since.....

As for enemies being revamped... Reichsman might have something to do with that.

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How to do this, especially in the case of travel powers, is a bit sticky. There are two ways you can do it. First, you can give travel powers disadvantages in PvP. The devs were probably on the better track when they had flight have a tohit debuff. Each travel power could have an associated debuff that was irrelevant when actually travelling, but was a penalty when running travel during actual fighting. The problem is that its easy to overbuff a penalty away in teams, so this would have to be done very deftly, and probably requires also looking at stacking and accumulated buff mechanics (my #1 game mechanical pet peeve).
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The trouble with this approach (and the trouble CoH devs ran into) is player perception. In order for something to be perceived as 'fun' it has to feel to the players like they are being enabled, rather than penalized. Especially now that people are used to powers working a certain way, it is that much harder to 'take something away' from the game, even if, in fact, you are giving the players something else in return(in this case a semi-subjective version of balance and potential for more fun in PvP.) It has to be an obvious gain to the players, and most game mechanics changes like this just aren't.

People play this game to feel super, so any way that is hindered will meet with general disapproval by most players, and will be percieved as a bad thing, regardless of the overarching, but less immediately evident, benefits. There have been way too many examples of that in the past.

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Cool... my first post as the first post after a red name.

Also... good points, Castle. I wanted to argue the point about subscription earlier but didn't see a real opportunity. I pick up and play Starwars Battlefront from time to time, but wouldn't have touched it if it were subscription... yet here I am with CoH month after month.

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Wow, that explains why almost all of the population is running PvE content, and the PvP zones are almost empty most of the time.

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If I didn't have to level and farm for accolodes, I'd probably never PvE again. But I have to, so I spend more time pveing than pvping.

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I'll sign for the other side here. I really enjoy the interaction of a good team working together against the environment, even if I've played the content before. I am looking at PvP as an option for when good teams are unavailable, but so far I've found it can be as tedious as the PvE hunting grind, with less rewards. Not always, but at times.

I've compared the way I play this game and they way I approach other MMO's as follows: in other games (LotR Beta and pre order, for example) I am interested in the long term story line, the world the characters are placed in, and the overall mechanics of how to play the game. I choose a class I am most comfortable with and I play it through. Like non MMO games, I can stand to play the PvE a couple times through, but after that it's only a device to get to other content (PvP or some other 'endier' game stuff.) This is how some people here have described their CoX experience as well, and I can understand that.

I've found, for myself, the world is less of a draw than the characters themselves are. I can spend hours in the character creator and first few levels, even though I've done all of the content before, just so I can try out another concept or powerset.

See, the scrapper class in other games is pretty much the same no matter how many times you roll it. The only real choices I have are whether to use an axe or a sword, that kind of thing, and that's usually determined by loot drops and what is optimal in that game. There's a lot more difference between scrapper sets alone, not to mention the mixing and matching of primaries and secondaries, or trying out completely different AT's.

That is why, for me, CoH is an entirely different beast, and will hold my attention until such time that it is well and truely obsolete. And yes, I do plan on getting my LotR Champion to PvP levels fairly quickly, so that I can experience all that that game has to offer as well.

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...I had something of an argument on the subject a few times, generally to the effect of, fight going, twice as many people suddenly show up on my side and spank them. No skill, no tactics, no thought, just pure numbers.
They did not appreciate my "That was remarkably lame" comment.

Can someone, rather than saying I should just accept it, explain to me why it should be done? What purpose is there to outnumbering and simply destroying the enemy? What fun is in an assured victory? Why is it not only accepted but expected that someone will attack anyone they can in a zone no matter what they are up to?
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The way I understand it, it goes beyond the simple explanation of 'cause I wanna'. Both because of game lore and because of player expectation, these zones are all out war zones. Players are trying to take over areas, get nukes, etc. Other players are expected to try to stop them. Duels or team duels getting interupted can be completely by mistake. Since most players expect anything to happen, they may feel they're doing you a favour by helping out, etc. You saying what they did was lame after the fact may very well be a bit confounding to them. It is war after all.

On top of that, as has been previously mentioned, how many comic heroes would stand by and let another hero get nearly killed (only a few readily come to mind ). As for villains, they would join in on the 'superior numbers' side just to see a hero get ganked. As in anything as big as superhero cutlure, there are probably exceptions, but we're talking about general lore.

What would be needed to satisfy what you are talking about is a dueling option. Individual players would have the ability to invite to a duel, and if accepted both parties would no longer be targetable or able to target others. If the two duelers were team leaders, then their teams would be included in the duel, and cut off from the rest of the players in the zone. The devs probably see the arenas as addressing this though, so I doubt we'll see it. Either way, you can't really go in to a PvP zone expecting everyone else to understand or abide by your rules if the mechanics of the game allow for more.


Oh, and for the record, superior numbers is part of tactics.... but I get what you're saying.

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Free for all zones? Ok so your talking about Warburg. Ganking? In a PvP zone? Nah doesn't exist. When I enter a PvP zone, I know full well im going to get attacked non-stop, as long as possible. Its a PvP zone, you are OBLIGATED to attack anyone and everyone (FFA zone). Ganking, pfft thats just what cowards use to call PvPers who attempt to FULLFILL the goal of the zone, and of the PvP itself.

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So that's the mentality that's undermining my enjoyment of PvP.

I'd been wondering.

Just for example, my favorite PvP fight was one that neither of us won. We couldn't kill eachother. I was hunting him, he was trying to strike me down before I could get a hold of him. It was actually fun.

I've had more than one enjoyable match between me and someone else be ruined by someone else butting in and killing one of us. Similar lines in the couple of team fights, two teams going at it, having fun, and then the self appointed calvary from on side or another shows up and makes it completely pointless to attempt anything.

Since I'm curious, is this a common mindset for PvPers here? Or do I have hope of being able to enjoy PvP from time to time?

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Quick answer from a non-PvPer. If you don't want to be interupted, go to the arena. Expect interference if you're in a zone with other PvPers.

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PvE'ers like yourself, with your biased opinions, but opinions non the less, are coming into PvP zones excepting to be the best instantly.


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What? How do you know that? Get out of my head!!! Out! Out! Out!

lol

Please don't take me too seriously... I've just seen too may of these posts not to laugh at them. I think my point was made though.

However, this does bring up another very valid point. If the PvPer's want to cultivate a good, fun, competative community, they or the Devs might want to find some reasonable way to initiate those of us with less experience. I have personally come to the boards and to PvP zones asking for help and claiming to be a 'noob'. No one outside of my non-PvPing SG has stepped in to help me. If you want to feel 'l33t', then by all means, kill me quickly, but don't expect me to stick around and find it fun. If you want to cultivate the community, however, then there might be a more positive and creative way to respond. I understand the concept of learning by losing, but at least in PvE I feel I have a reasonable community supporting me, even when my SG's not online.

(Don't worry, I realize that there's no way to know how experienced a person is if you just randomly spot them in a zone. That's not what I'm getting at.)

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Same numbers of [censored] who PvP, also PvE.

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Your right. All of those PvPer's had to PvE to get to where they are now.


Oh, sorry... not really what you were getting at...

The SWG points made here seem a bit funny to me. Most of the people I've heard complain about SWG it was the lag and the constant combat mechanics changes that irritated them, rather than anything specificly tied to PvP or PvE.

I left because I couldn't even be in a zone by myself without rubber banding, and I had the recommended system at the time.

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PvPers are not persecuting you.


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I agree with everything said by this poster. If you enter a PvP zone you should expect to be a target, regardless of why you're there, and especially if you're affecting the game play, however minorly, of other players in the zone. That's the glory of CoH's system. You don't have to enter the zone if you're not interested in PvP.

However, the statement I picked out, unfortunately, is not always true. The examples already cited are of PvPers getting their jolly's from tormenting people they know aren't going to fight back. I'm sure that's not what the dev's intended, and its not the kind of PvP I would ever be interested in. Mind you, my own point is skewed by those who whine when killed legitimately once or twice.

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...I don't think that the PVE game needs to be removed, I was trying to point out that PVE only MMORPGs don't do well. COX is a pvp optional game. It should remain so. It shouldn't ignore the rest of it's players. Though it shouldn't ignore the pvp community either.


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I don't PvP at this point, and I agree with this. The Dev's should follow up on features that were promised, if they're not currently working 'as intended'.

Examples would be base raids, power items, PvP and arena stability, etc.

I'm sure the core PvPers can come up with more.
Bear in mind, wants and features the devs have promised are two different things.

I agree that there is a difference between greifing and rudeness. The dev's and GM's have a clear definition of greifing and there are obvious behaviours that can and should be petitioned. However, this probably isn't the standard many people are talking about raising.

Take it this way. In real life there is a difference between rules that are enforceable by police and rules that are just plain considered polite. There is law, and then there is etiquette. Many of us are asking for sportmanship and etiquette, and not all of us doing so are crying because someone gave us debt or tp'd us when we weren't 'ready'.

I'll refer to my own previous post (to which I haven't yet seen a decent reply) that asked you PvPers to sell me on it.

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For example I kill a badger I get an ear full about how they're only there for badges and blah blah so I keep killing them then get petitioned.

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Hoj, this is the part I don't get. Why do you keep killing them until you get petitioned?

I mean, yes-- I agree-- a badger in a PvP zone needs to realize they're in a PvP zone. You kill them, they get upset, and you've proved your point: you have forced them to acknowledge they're in a PvP zone.

But killing them over and over until they petition you? Why? They're not a challenge to you, and probably not a threat to you, and so it's unlikely they're going to suddenly cut loose with their insane PvP skills and give you the good fight that I would imagine you want.

It's kinda like kicking a puppy, hoping it will turn into a werewolf, until the ASPCA shows up and hands you a summons.

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If they're an orange name why not kill them? Am I not there to PvP? As for killing them till they petition me, it's humerous that they are really going to cry to a dev that I killed them in a PvP zone.

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I think the point is that if you kill the same person again quickly there is a diminished reward, so it's clear you're just trying to irritate them and laugh at their discomfort.... am I wrong?

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...On March 7, 2007, Blizzard announced that the subscriber base for World of Warcraft had reached a new milestone, with 8.5 million players worldwide there are more than 2 million players in North America, 1.5 million players in Europe, and 3.5 million players in China.


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Um... I'm not really in on this part of the argument, but I think you just made a point for the other side. You're saying that of 8.5 million players, only 3.5 are in North America and Europe.....

Don't get me wrong, that's still a nice market share of US subscribers, but by their own admission there are people who have accounts with both WOW and CoX (and others). Being in one stat doesn't exclude someone from being counted in another.

Either way, stick with the 2 Million number. You will probably still make the point you were trying to, but it won't look so much like hyperbole.

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...3. pvp play is inarguably more engaging, visceral, and immediate than pve play -- which doesn't mean pve isnt fun. grinding through a "narrative" can be entertaining, but honestly id really rather just watch the movie.

4. loot sucks. theres no way around this.

5. dont devs want to be innovative, to do something original, rather than the do same old thing everybody else does? sure, its a business and you got to make a living, but when did game design become widget production?

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Lol... I love these 'inarguable' statements...

# 5 I'll start with the last one. I thought CoH was pretty innovative. It managed to grab a selection of players by being the non-MMO (no loot, no PvP, instancing, sk, etc). Sure the world has moved on, but that's life in gaming, technology, etc. Now, that's not to say that an active dev team shouldn't strive for more innovation, mind you.

#4 Your feelings towards loot is similare to others feelings towards PvP. Some people love the idea of Uber loot and of the auction houses. They love 'winning' a good auction, or getting a better pay for their effort. Some of these people have acutally posted in this thread. There are a lot of others who hate the idea of loot, though.

#3 PvP more engaging, eh? I've tried PvP a few times. I have found it boring. After less than an hour of play the entire zone fell into a very tedious cycle of I beat you, you beat me, lather, rinse, repeat. I am not a PvP hater. That is, it's not the idea of PvP or the fear of getting beaten that keeps me from it. I just don't find it as 'engaging' as running missions, especially TF's and events, with a good, well oiled, and friendly team.

Now, I'm not being sarcastic at all when I say the following: Sell me on PvP. I am interested in figuring out what in the world many of you are talking about when it comes to player generated content and hours of engaging fun. I don't count getting ganked, exploited, and smack-talked, and then returning the favour ad nauseum as content. It may very well be that I am missing something. That's why I'm seriously appealing to the PvP crowd here.

From a PvEer to the PvPers: sell me on PvP. Talking down about my favourite way of playing isn't going to do it. Telling me how great other games that do PvP are doing isn't going to sell me. (Especially since I've tried several and didn't enjoy them a fraction of the amount that I do CoH).

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only losers feel the need to name-call.

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Most of the time, the people with the harshest insults in PvP zones have just been killed. They need to say something to make them feel better after being beaten. Just don't let their talk bother you.


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I wish this were true, and maybe it is for most of them, but in my recent (and very limited ) experience, there are players out there who really enjoy goading others and generally badmouthing anyone they can.

I know that I can turn off the 'listen to villains' option, but I was hoping there were some players out there I'd actually like to communicate with.....

I would like to speak to this.

A lot of you have made some good points both ways. As well, the internet is a great place to find broad sweeping statements that are hard to back up, and there are some of those in this thread as well.

First, I'm neither in the pro nor anti-PvP camp. Second, I think a point Castle made about the original design of any given game is important to this discussion.

Other games came out advertising PvP content. They were built for it. Many of those are the ones mentioned by the OP in the 'stats' he uses as examples. CoH is very different. It came out advertising that players would never have to PvP. It didn't even come out with real PvP for over a year (I'm not counting arenas). So what I'm saying is that all, not most, players who originally bought the game were doing so with the expectation that PvP was not part of it. As a result, there are players to this day who would run away in droves if PvP were suddenly implemented in anything even resembling the traditional way. That's not to say there aren't some great ideas and possibilities out there. I realize there were new players who came in for CoV and since, and that compared to other games PvP in CoX is underdeveloped. However, PvP was not part of the original design, intent, or expectation.

People post arguments based on 'everyone they talk to' or 'most people they speak to in game'. It's easy to do, but it is not valid because we normally congregate with those of like mind. In other words, if you are predominantly a PvPer, the people you really get into conversations with are for the most part also going to be PvPer's. You hang out in those zones, so that's who you're going to meet. Also, posting stats that deal with other games that were, for the most part, designed with PvP in mind is useful and interesting, but cannot speak for this community because of the original intent, design, and expectations.

Now on to more personal comments.
I've read a few posts here, but not nearly all of them. I think there are some interesting ideas, but as it stands I do not play this game for the PvP. On top of that, implementing PvP as a copy of some of the more 'populare' games out there wouldn't work for me either. If it did I'd be playing those.

First, there are some serious community problems with PvP. I agree with the majority of what Castle says here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showf...art=1&vc=1

Also, I tried PvP for a player run event the other day and after the first hour I found it tedious. I gank you, you gank me, back and forth throughout the zone until you come up with some way of exploiting me and I end up with debt. I didn't really get frustrated. I even complimented the Stalker who ended up killing me, but I found it tedious. There was even some trash talk, which I personally don't like, especially in an organized event.

Now, admittedly, I don't know a lot about PvP. My toon wasn't built for it, but I would be interested if I found it even half as fun as what people claim. I'm not only talking about CoX here either. On top of that, I end up bored and not advancing my toon. As it stands it just plain doesn't appeal to me. I know enough other people who feel the same way that we could put a noticeable dent in subscriptions if we all up an left. Barely noticeable, but a dent none the less.

So, to address both sides, PvP does need a boost in CoH. I would like there to be some reason to play other than bragging rights. It does need to be more fun. Part of that may very well be the issues brought up here and elsewhere that the devs have to look at. Part of it may also be the community (for the reasons stated in Castles post, etc.). On top of that, there are advertised features that are still not usable in game (base raids and SG missions, PvP stability, etc.). The players take these as unfullfilled promises from the Devs, so, even though I don't plan on using them extensively, they do deserve attention.

However, I personally doubt that PvP pays the bills for CoH, especially in its current state. I continue to pay for and play CoH with no expectations that PvP will ever move beyond what it is. If it does, and if it is more inticing, I will play, but that's not why I play CoH. I play for the over all system and for the great times I have teaming. It is a blast to team with 3 or 4 other mature players and together take down an enemy that would otherwise be overwhelming, whether PvP or PvE.

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Anyone play HeroClix? Have you used the CoX characters while playing? Have you made custom figures based on your City of Heroes characters?

I've done all of that.

Currently I'm working on creating the remaining members like Sister Psyche, Back Alley Brawler and Synapse. I need help determining what their stats would be. Any suggestions?

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Yes to all of that.... ironically, if I didn't spend my evenings on CoH, I'd have more time to mod my Heroclix doubles!!!

The figs I get the most use out of from the CoX figs are Ghost Widow, Mako (Sharkbait - ooha ha) , and Manticore, in that order.

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The last mission in Synapse TF the junk piles are all invisible now. 4 man team and no one could see them but they were clearly still there.

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Ditto on the invisible decor. It still blocks ranged fire and movement.

Were you able to target the piles of junk once you realized they were there?

I love to customize my characters. I got the extra slot for most of my alts during the halloween event. Same for my base. I love the newer options from I7 like SG banners and holograms.

That being said, I would put my vote in for cheaper items, more usable functions (like accessing kiosk information from my holodisplay, computers you can do something with, etc.), fixing bugs like the unused mission computer, etc.

Personal space should be added, but should be sepparate from the SG base and dependant on personal resources (inf) not group resources (prstg). It should be localized to a specific zone, with more space available in higher lvl zones, but more cost, more like an apt idea. Maybe you could link from the apt to an SG base portal, but I don't think it should be part of the base.

Mind you, if the tech is easier to impliment from the existing SG base, I'd deal with it.

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I've italicized some text here to further highlight something I think a few people have missed. Not a certain chance for a defeat every mission, but the possiblity for a defeat.

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Personally, I think he's saying the 'possibility' of one defeat per group.

In other words, we're talking about one out of 2 to 8 toons dying once, not a total team wipe.

It also says a group of all sizes. That means a team of 8 on Heroic should still face the likelihood of a defeat. That means a WIPE. If one or two people die in the process, that's not a defeat.

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I highly disagree. A defeat ratio is in fact a good idea. It would allow you to get an idea based on some variables to determine how hard your game is to the average user. Getting that statistic would be hard, mind you, but yeah.

There's a difference between a statistic, and how you choose to achieve that statistic. Just because they determine that the average user will die once a heroic mission (which, honestly, I've never heard a dev say), doesn't mean that they can't come up with imaginative level design that the average user will possibly die once too.

There are other ways you can come about to figure out how hard your levels are, of course, but I don't see why coming up with a number on how often the average user will die, would be so bad.

My statistic when soloing? I die once per elite boss. Then I buy a crapton of inspirations and show that elite boss whose... boss

Math != Creativity. You can use one to get the other, or not, they are unrelated.

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The problem, from my perspective, isn't the stat gathering. It's saying that you should die once per heroic mission. By that count and your own admission, you would need an Elite Boss in every heroic mission.

My only point was that I really doubt that that's the stat the dev's are shooting for. If it is, it really will kill the game for most of us.

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...You "nearly" die? And you are complaining? The standard for Heroic (as statyed by a developer at one point) was designed to be roughly one death per mission. Anything better than that means you are ahead of the curve.

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If that's the standard the dev's are shooting for then I'm really going to hate this game when we get there!

Please post a reference. I have a hard time to believe that this is their intended level of play.

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..Then Arctic_Sun pulled out his Statesman card and whacked Mynx on the head and "nerfed" her.

Good Times.



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I can't believe you came out with this in context of saying that the CCG was just like the MMO!

Seriously, though. All but one of my r/l friends who play the MMO are buying and playing the card game (great idea for starters). The one who doesn't, would be playing but his work schedule doesn't coincide.

We've drafted a non onliner into playing the CCG, so we're covered.