Patteroast

Tankers are obviously obsolete, and there's no reason to make them. That's why nobody plays them.

Wait, what? People do play them, and some people even enjoy them more than the other melee archetypes?

Hmmm.

I can't say anything about Keyes, since I haven't run it, but it's been quite a while since I've come across people who completely misunderstand what Defenders do. There are occasionally people calling for healzors, but I've never gotten complaints on my Dark Defender, for example. It's even been a while since my Trick Arrow Defender's gotten crap for not having a healing arrow. (Which seems to be a joke that just about every Trick Arrow Defender has come up with independently... )

Not only are teams with multiple sources of control, buffs, or debuffs feasible, but they're incredibly powerful. Most of the single-AT superteams that I've heard of consisted of archetypes with buffs and debuffs that stacked up to awesomeness, and nigh-invulnerability.

As for your example of feeling less useful as a Tanker when there's lot of control, I know exactly what you mean. If you're concentrating on, well, Tanking on your Tanker, multiple effective Controllers can pretty much take over for you. I've found it useful to not really think of mezzing ability and tanking as seperate things when building a team, but merging them into 'aggro management'. In that category, they're really doing the same thing.

As others have said, the 'holy trinity' is not needed at all in CoH. You can make workable teams with just about any combination of ATs. Some combinations work better than others (and yes, the holy trinity works quite well), but it's pretty hard to put together a team of more than about five people and not have it work at all. Having a competent player is infinitely more imporant than having a certain archetype in this game.

I would hope that in any set of descriptions of all the archetypes, any broad comparisons would be to all the other ATs, instead of just a subset. I think knowing that Tankers are medium damage compared to all ATs is more useful to a first-time player than that they're the lowest damaging of melee ATs... especially if you could go look at the melee ATs and see that none of the others are rated at 'low'. There's no need to complicate it with sub-categories.

All the talk about being a devastating force is flavor text, and from a story point of view, even a low-damage superpowered individual is doing a lot more than a normal civilian. I think it's fine how it is. (Besides... have you seen a Fire Tank use Burn lately? I think devastating is certainly apt. )

I'd like to see Ice Melee, Fire/Fire and /Invuln for Stalkers. Poison better make its way to Defenders, now that they're finally sharing it. Force Field for Corruptors... and pretty much every melee damage set for every melee archetype.

Funny... I specifically hope they do NOT ever proliferate Ninjitsu. I've always seen it as a condensed version of Super Reflexes with a heal and some Stalker-centric tricks up its sleeve, and I don't think it would be very good after being gutted to work on another archetype.

As for new powersets that are similar to existing bits... Dark Control of course would be interesting, but it would require some severe cuts to combine with Dark Miasma on a Controller. Some sort of Energy or Plasma Rifle set, probably expanded from the attacks in Robotics. A gadget-y control set. A gadget-y Assault set for Dominators, and maybe a naturalish brawling Assault set as well. Poisonous, Radiation, and Psychic themed sets for types that don't have them. A whip set would be great, even if I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps some sort of more tech armor set.

I had grand plans for when the Architect came out that I would make a bunch of story arcs that would delve into my main characters' backstories. Notable ones:

The past of my first character, Patteroast was being tampered with. Go back and do some Ouroboros-style mending to assure that he is NOT killed by the Rikti raids he fought in Chicago.

The Redemption of Particle Accelerator. My main Stalker's backstory is that he was originally a hero who felt unappreciated, and after a tragic accident, turned to crime. During his time as a villain, he never was really evil... he simply stole to get what he needed, and got rid of people trying to get rid of him. The story arc would also involve another character of mine, Dr. Fejwol, whose story has him working as a contact for a time. He was the one who sent Particle Accelerator to the mission in which he was injured, and he would be the contact for the arc. Fejwol's goal in the arc would be to bring PA back to the side of right, as he always felt some guilt about how it had turned out.

This is a strange spot to mention, but for some reason, the first place that came to mind is a sloping ledge to the north of the train. I remember WAAAY back when I first started, having only a couple under-20 characters, being so proud of myself for knowing a zone well enough to know a shortcut, and not have to take a roughly two block detour to get back to the train.

Not a glamorous spot, but a spot I'll miss nonetheless. (Even if I can go to the flashback version... won't be the same as running past it on a lowbie on the way to a contact.)

I think AS has a place in taking out an enemy when you start fighting, and also in Placate + Build Up + AS on an EB or AV. It's not useful in every group, or every time, but it is useful enough of the time that I keep it. If you disagree, go ahead and skip it.

If I saw a Stalker without AS I'd think that was a bit odd, but I wouldn't react as if they were a petless Mastermind. If you feel like you're not getting enough out of a power, don't take it.

It sounds like you'd prefer the Brute. I prefer the Stalker, but I am free to admit it's sometimes a bit of an acquired taste.

I kind of envy people who are really story-focused. I find that I only come up with stories after the fact, but my friends who work on it from the start come up with some awesome stuff. They'll say that they have a character idea, but need to think of what powersets to use. I'll have a powerset combo that I want to try, but I can't think of a good story for it. I think I can get there, when it comes to a good backstory, but it takes me a lot longer.

Let's see if I can't give a better answer for the archetypes...

Blasters: Obviously, their powers are in the form of blasts of some kind. My blasters tend to have less complicated origins for their powers... usually the secondary attacks are just using the primary attacks in a slightly different way. One specific subversion of that is my Energy/Devices Blaster, who is young and inexperienced, so he uses some unrelated tech to help him be effective. Overall, they usually have an uncomplicated view of their abilities: "Hey, I can shoot energy blasts! Cool! I'll go do that!" They are all about charging in and going nuts.

Controllers: Most of my controllers have had their abilities their whole lives, and are very comfortable with the subtleties therein. They're very focused on mastering their special niche. The few that gained their abilities later in life did so by training very hard, for a long time. Overall, they're not so much people who can exert control on other people, as much as they have incredibly control over a certain element or such.

Defenders: I have a very hard time getting over the whole heroic helper kind of ideal for Defenders. Almost all of mine are good people, who selflessly run out to help others, even if they alone might not be able to stand toe-to-toe with the enemies they face. Usually, most of the depth that I put into my Defenders' backstories comes from how they found themselves motivated to do such deeds. (Notable expection to all the of the above: my Traps Defender, who will be a villain, is pretty much just a crazy terrorist. So... yeah.)

Kheldians: By chance, my Kheldians all have rather silly backstories, so there's no too much depth there for me. They mostly are still trying to figure out how to be an entity with two parts. I've tried mixing it up by having a Warshade mostly motivated by profit and revenge, a Peacebringer who melded with a robot, and is struggling to make that unconventional mix work somehow, and possibly a crazed religious zealot who thinks he's the chosen one.

Scrappers: Primarily, my Scrappers are pretty uncomplicated. They may or may not have some sort of superhuman ability, and decide to fight with some sort of weapon or ability. Why they choose to fight runs the whole spectrum of hero to villain, but no matter where they fall, they simply choose to fight in the most obvious way they see.

Tankers: My Tankers are weighted down either by some sense of responsibility to help others, or an arrogance that they are more important. It doesn't seem like those goals would work in at all the same way... but the more heroic ideal is trying to gain attention in battle to assist weaker allies, while the more villainous ideal wants the attention because he feels he deserves it. Either way, they feel they should do more in a battle than simply fight. The majority of my Tankers have superhuman abilities to allow them to sustain the incoming damage, but there are a few that are human but just crazy tough.

Soldiers of Arachnos: Well, the story's rather tightly written already... a member of Arachnos who rebels for their own glory. I try to make my characters different by giving them various motivations for why they joined Arachnos in the first place. Some are in it for the standard lust for power, but some just happened to live in the Rogue Isles and despite the EXTREMELY deep flaws in their government, want to assist because of a sense of patriotism. (Not unlike some of my Praetorian Loyalists.)

Brutes: It occurs to me that I really have defined Brutes for myself mostly based on the fact that they're mostly villains. They tend to be the tougher, heavier fighters... somewhere between the simple fighters of Scrappers and the center-of-battle attitude of Tankers. They don't care so much that everyone is looking at them, as much as they are entirely confident that they can take whoever is fighting them right now. Because I mostly have villainous Brutes, they're mostly motivated by power or greed... the few heroic Brutes that I have don't really have any gut feeling that separates them from Scrappers or Tankers. In the future, where the only difference is playstyle, I'll probably defer to making a Scrapper or Tanker over a Brute simply because I enjoy the way they play more.

Corruptors: I find Corruptors to be much more cautious and precise than Blasters... more of a hidden sniper or combat medic/engineer than simply a guy who runs up and lets loose with damage. On the border between Corruptors and Defenders, I find that even when they're heroes, my Corruptors seem more focused on themselves than others. They'll make sure that they're okay first, before assisting any allies. To put it in a negative light, a lot of my Corruptors are pretty cowardly.

Dominators: Much more manipulative than Controllers. I'm more inclined to feel that my Dominators' abilities are based around controlling other people than simply mastery of elements, but there are some more focused on the latter, so there is some overlap. I tend to have character who are less adept at using their powers than Controllers, but more ruthless in using them in unusual ways to win.

Masterminds: Rather simple. They either control a squad of minions or they lead a team of allies, or something in-between. Most common motivations are greed, power, duty, crazed mad scientist style WORLD DOMINATION BWAHAHAhahahacough-hack-cough... or even a simpler self-preservation.

Stalkers: My Stalkers are motivated to get what they want, and no matter how prepared you are for them, you will not be able to stop them. Greed's the most obvious motivator, but I also have some duty-bound black ops types, and some looking for revenge. They will sneak in to your most guarded areas, but once they're there they will not shy away from a fight. Some even prefer fighting their way through, even if they could sneak past. They won't be stopped either way.

I hope that is more the response the OP was looking for.

I've never felt confined to the only the 'popular' sets, so I don't think this will change much for me in that regard... I already found Energy Aura a quite playable set as a Stalker.

As for the changes themselves? They are awesome! I am very excited, especially for my level 50 Energy/Energy who is one of my all-time favorite characters. I may be able to respec out of Aid Self! And I may actually be able to softcap despite the fact that I barely use IOs!

I found Repulse to be really amusing. I used it to herd, because enemies dislike being splattered against walls. I definitely won't complain about an actually useful power instead, though!

Non-powergamer here, but I can say that when I was playing my bane with a friend's bane, and we both used Poisonous Ray, we were very pleased with the results.

It annoys me to see people saying that certain things like single-target damage sets are useless in today's game.

Can you kill the enemies with it? Yes.
Can you kill lots of enemies with it, even at high difficulties? Yup.
Can you complete your missions? Of course.

That doesn't sound useless to me. I think a lot of powergamers just have no patience. Since I prefer the 1-49 game over the endgame, I'll continue enjoying my non-uber characters and having fun with 'obsolete' ATs.

Not saying that I'd object to improvements to Stalkers. They deserve some love, but they're not as unplayable as some make them out to be.

zomg. I am geeking out with excitement on how awesome my Energy/Energy Stalker is going to be. He's already awesome, and one of my favorite characters, but now he's going to be even better! Wheee!

The passive powers being more effective? Hell yes.
Addition recharge from one of my toggles? Hell yes.
The minor heal in Energy Drain turning into +def? HELL YES.
Conserve Power turning into Energize? ... no words. Holy crap, I love this.

The only one I'm not totally 100% on board for is the cottage-rule-breaker change to Repulse. I will mourn the loss of hitting Overload, turning on Repulse, and splattering all the enemies against the walls to make them angry so I could herd. It was hilarious. But getting an actually useful power that will help with survivability instead? I'll take it. Happily.

I don't care what the numbers say, I'll always play Tankers because I find them fun. I don't care if a Brute is standing next to me doing more damage. I have more fun playing a Tanker than a Brute. I'm not the only one, and Tankers will never be 'obsolete' or any of that silliness. And I also know there are plenty of people who feel the opposite way. Hooray! We all get to play an AT that's fun!

Fiery Aura/Super Strength has already been mentioned... and wow, is it ever godly... mine's just about to get Foot Stomp. My friends don't like bringing damage dealers when I'm playing him, because they feel outclassed.

I play a tanker duo with a friend, I have Dark Melee and he has Energy Melee, and we both do rather well for damage. Energy, despite being mostly single target, still hits hard even with a longer animation on Energy Transfer. And Dark has Soul Drain... that helps quite a lot with keeping the damage up.

I will play just about any archetype. When I21 hits, the main deciding factor about which AT a new character will be... should be what I haven't made yet. Oh, no Dual Blades Tanker? Let's try that. Time Defender! Yay! Let's see if I can get a good combo of the sets I haven't tried for Corruptor! Whoo! Underlying goal: play every primary and secondary on every archetype. Proliferation means I'll be making a LOT of new characters.

As for what I'm most excited about when it comes to ATs... this time around, I'll probably rush to make a new Defender and Tanker first, I really enjoy seeing how sets that are usually secondaries work when they become primaries.

When it comes to my attitudes about comparable archetypes... for melee ATs, I'd say I like Scrappers, Tankers, and Stalkers in a three-way tie, and Brutes just behind. I just don't enjoy them as much as the others. For Ranged ATs, it's all about the Defenders, then Blasters, and finally Corruptors are probably my least favorite AT. The thing is, my main concern will be making what I don't have yet, so I tend to keep roughly equal numbers of characters on each AT.

I try to play arcs whenever I can, because I'm generally bored to tears of the same radio/paper missions over and over and over and over...

The other day I defeated Archon Leery four times in a row.

Funny, I enjoy playing Defenders more than Corruptors, and Tankers more than Brutes. I'm fully aware of the numbers. I just have more fun on the 'obsolete' archetypes.

This is maybe not really relevant, but I thought I should mention one of my favorite duos right now... my Dark/Dark Tanker and a friend's Invuln/Energy Tanker. We run +1x8, getting massive herds and mowing them down as fast as they come. Then again, to be fair, I should mention that we had less success as soon as we added more teammates.

The comparison to a petless Mastermind seems pretty apt here, to me. Feel free to try whatever you like, it's your own fun. I don't think I'd try it, and I would probably not be pleased if I invited someone who claimed to be an Empath and didn't have their heals. I'd recommend putting a note about it in your search comment! That's what I did on my petless Mastermind. (Yeah, morbid curiosity got the better of me. No, it's not a good idea.)

More than anything, I agree with this:

I think it's mostly a matter of the 'lead' tank not wanting to share aggro, having a 'secondary' tank step on their toes.

If you're fighting more than the aggro cap, that's a rather silly concern.

I actually remember once a friend asked me to bring someone for an ITF and I grabbed my tank. When I got there, I found out that another friend of his wanted to be 'lead tank' on his Brute. I obediently waited for him to establish aggro before going in to shore it up, and only taunted enemies that were harassing the squishies, but the Brute was sending tells to my friend, the team leader, complaining about how I was ruining his fury. When my friend noted that I was going out of my way to avoid that, he ragequit.

It only seems to be a problem when people have the whole mentality of One Lead Tank. More easygoing teams don't seem to have a problem with it. People do tend to be more srs bzns about TFs, though.

ETA: Of course, even in a tight team with one overbearing lead tank, I wouldn't believe it if my Fire/Super Strength Tanker got rejected from a TF... he is most definitively a damage dealer.

I don't have a Fire/Dark Tank, but from my experience with each set on its own (level 44 Dark/Dark Tank and level 36 Fire/SS Tank), I imagine that Soul Drain + Burn is a very happy thing indeed.

Soul Drain boosts damage and tohit based on how many enemies it hits. It can miss, but if you enhance it for accuracy, it should hit plenty of targets. If it hits enough, it will give a larger +damage boost than Build Up.

Just herd 'em up, hit Soul Drain, and Burn away.