Obsidian_Force2

Sigh... yes, if you take joe couch potatoe against some trained athlete sure, but were not talking that were talking the best on both sides. Of course a skilled player plays better than one who never uses that set or AT.

But assuming equal skill then what? I'll tell you, again.. One will outperform another.

You can train somebody to be an awesome human only player by having them mastering that set of skills.

You can train somebody to be just as awesome of a Tri-Former by having them master THAT set of skills, what I'm talking about is if equally skilled players in their respective builds compaire notes, what one will be outperforming the other.

And dispite what you keep saying that can be measured, hell the skill levels do not even have to be exacting to get an accurate measurement on what sort outperforms the other, it helps but if one is doubling the damage of the other and are even close to the same skill level it's no dang mystery why.

"Ideal" situations indeed. One will outperform the other in most circumstances and while skill can disrupt this if the skill levels are weighted on one side or the other as a rule, in MOST circumstances of equal skill one will outdo the other most of the time.

This really is a moot point, as all signs indicate things will be staying as they are for the forseeable future. The possibility was raised analyzed and rejected. Saying the Dev's are "wrong" is just plain sour grapes, it is their game and as such whatever they decide is correct.

I see this as no different than wanting to not take the status toggle on any scrapper or tank set and saying I need "other" status protection. It has similar restrictions to rooted and granite armor, nobody is forced to take them but they also cannot say they do not have access to status protection either.

You can build an all human if you like but the fact you have no protection to mezz is a flaw in your chosen design not the design of the set.

I'm not overly sorry you don't like it but thats the truth.

They do not redesign an AT to placate the people dedicated to building concept characters.

They said you could build your Kheldian in any manner you like but never made any claims it would be as effective as taking the forms.

This seems to be "their" vision of the AT and playing with or against it is a choice that both sides have to live with the results of their choices.

Honestly I could care less what your friends think as like minded tend to congregate, and you still have said nothing to sway me or anyone to believe a mono-form can do anything a tri-form cannot but without the added benifits of prolonged sustained aoe damage and the ability to truely HOLD agro.

In each and every scenerio you have recalled (that I have read) it's you and whatever large team with a kin or tank or whatever you need to do what a tri-form could do alone.

Your massive damage spike is nothing any competant Kheldian can't pull off. It's not impressive to me, and It's missleading in my opinion.

It's simply not proving the strength of human only builds in my opinion.

And to be honest I find your "Look how awesome I am on my human only Kheld" posts just as comical as you find my posts questioning their impressiveness.

You attempt to sway people to human only and have only anecdotal evidence to do so, and yet totaly refute any math or statistics that shows otherwise.

I was going to end the post with the last line but you wanted to pick apart what I said so it's only fair to return the favor.

You spike the first mob group and I assume use Unchain Essence, maybe Mire, most likely Eclipse with a healthy dose of FS, what do you do on the second mob? Dark Detonation? Unchain probably isnt up mire most likely isn't either unless your sporting a heavy global recharge and are SB'ed, but SB isn't your power It's the Kins.

Even ignoring all that you still don't have the recharge to have unchain up every mob group if your setting the pace you say you are. And Dark Detonation, possibly Mire, Orbiting Death and a few single target attacks are not an effective attack chain if your dealing with 8 man spawns set to anything over heroic unless you literaly can spam Dark Detonation back to back with no stops and that would require more recharge than you can actually get into your build.

Moving on...

If you really want to show me your ability to tank pick an AV, any one will do, and keep the agro on yourself and not others. This is generaly reguarded as Tanking by tankers who would probably know best.

Any AT with sufficient ressits/buffs can jump into an 8 man spawn long enough for everything to be locked in place and killed with sudden spike damage I do it all the time on my WS, jump in Eclipse,Mire, nuke, and in no way am I tanking.

Do I live? most of the time.
Is anyone else taking agro? Not usually, but the mobs die so fast there is no chance for me to be out-agroed. It's still not tanking, It's taking the alpha long enough for everything to be spiked to death.

You like to go on and on about play style being the most important factor. Alright I'll play.

Here is what I would do with your set up, 8 man spawns with a fire/kin in tow with my Tri-Form.

Port or run in if I had SB, Eclipse, wait for FS, then nuke.

Any stragglers the Fire/Kin can mop up since I'm already using Stygian Circle and moving onto the next group in squid form and spamming my AOE's for around 450 a pop with capped ressits. Even without SB I can spam these two back to back adnausium.

If I run into an EB/AV I can go into dwarf form perfectly safe from mez's and using my dwarf heal I can tank the EB/AV usually without support, I'll never kill him (If It's an AV. EB I can kill in dwarf form but slowly.) but I wont die either, and he will never attack anyone else unless there is a Tank there stealing my agro.

In short the only things I cannot do that you can is sit in the middle of a group of mobs smacking them for 26 points of damage every 2 seconds and spam an aoe attack that does ALOT less damage than either of my squid AOE's.

I can, Eclipse, Nuke, Unchain Essence, Stygian Circle, Mirex2, Gravity Well, Gravitic Emmination, Inky Aspect, and Phase, most likely well enough you wouldn't be able to tell visually who's powers were better slotted.

You laugh as if you somehow have the higher ground and proclaim my posts are deteriorating, while your posts really cannot decline as they never held anything but anecdote to begin with.

Your friends think your awesome, this means nothing as mine do too and I could very well be a crappy WS and so could you.

Truth be told I don't find it as funny as you do, probably because you have attempted to take an unassailable position of using nothing in your posts that can be argued because you provide very few facts.

It's a very safe position to take because if you never use any facts or figures then there is nothing that can be proven on either side and you can claim victory with nothing but "well I said it was most fun/best for me" while at the same time making it appear to be a winning playstyle/build to anyone reading.

Anytime you make claims of something being better/worse/equal the burden of proof is on the person making the claims and not the person questioning the claims. You have yet to provide anything that can be measured in any way. You refuse to and I have to question why, other than the obvious "I don't want to/It's not the way I do things/I don't have to."

You may very well be correct, maybe Human form does the job as well, but I cannot figure out how nor why it would given the facts and numbers I have seen, but until you explain it in such a fashion that I can evaluate it for merits (and not rely on the I don't like the forms so it's best for my style arguement) I have to keep calling human form equal to Tri-Form what I believe it to be, bunk.

Nope.

Don't ...care...at all.

Meh, don't worry about mid's. Slot what ever you happen across, it won't make a big difference anyways.

Nevermind, It's clear now. You don't actually need the forms because your damage is as good in human form with the right "play-style" and human can tank just as well as dwarf form with well slotted toggles, perma-eclipse and a few breakfrees.

The forms are actually kind of a waste given all that.

Honestly, restricting yourself to human form, "your" damage will not improve, your pets will add to your damage output alot but the only damaging power you really have to look forward to after 28 is quasar and its on a very long timer.

Your human form damage scaler is roughly half what it is in squid form and even below what it is in dwarf. This is the main reason I advocate for Tri-Form builds and attempt to steer people away from human only or mainly human builds.

Careful slotting will mean you get all your good human powers including the pets, and are able to slot them fairly well (4-6 slots each), so your only really loosing the redundant human blasts and things I personaly believe to be of little use like the snare and Orbiting Debt, which are overshadowed by your squid form attacks anyways.

If youre making a concept type build such as human only thats cool, so long as your aware (and willing to admit) your going to have a less able build because of it.

There is no call for more damage, but there is also no call for any changes at all in my opinion.

The people who are asking for (some would say radical) changes are the ones unhappy with the AT as it is (a predominantly damage focused AT with a few minor other tricks)

So in return I could have just said "go roll a damn emp". Thats not how I feel so I did not. This however in no way means I have to agree to changes that would alter either the focus or the percieved focus of the AT, which is in case anyone missed it, damage.