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Sigh... yes, if you take joe couch potatoe against some trained athlete sure, but were not talking that were talking the best on both sides. Of course a skilled player plays better than one who never uses that set or AT.
But assuming equal skill then what? I'll tell you, again.. One will outperform another.
You can train somebody to be an awesome human only player by having them mastering that set of skills.
You can train somebody to be just as awesome of a Tri-Former by having them master THAT set of skills, what I'm talking about is if equally skilled players in their respective builds compaire notes, what one will be outperforming the other.
And dispite what you keep saying that can be measured, hell the skill levels do not even have to be exacting to get an accurate measurement on what sort outperforms the other, it helps but if one is doubling the damage of the other and are even close to the same skill level it's no dang mystery why.
"Ideal" situations indeed. One will outperform the other in most circumstances and while skill can disrupt this if the skill levels are weighted on one side or the other as a rule, in MOST circumstances of equal skill one will outdo the other most of the time. -
Quote:No, I simply do not care how skilled or unskilled a player is, if you take the best of one style against the best of another style one will outperform the other because one thing always outperforms another, cars, athletes,bowling styles,.Considering the amount of argumentative posts he's put up about the way I prefer to play, or the fact that he seems to ridicule pretty much anyone who chooses to play that way....
I'd actually say that he is.
"The One"
I really do not care what works best for somebody based on a learned style, I'm looking at what performs best under perfect flawless or totaly unskilled play styles, because otherwise were not analyzing the AT or sets were analyzing individuals. And that will not help anyone.
And FYI the picture only shows a solid human build with alot of set bonuses, I could post mine as well if this is going to be a point of reference for the future. -
This really is a moot point, as all signs indicate things will be staying as they are for the forseeable future. The possibility was raised analyzed and rejected. Saying the Dev's are "wrong" is just plain sour grapes, it is their game and as such whatever they decide is correct.
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I see this as no different than wanting to not take the status toggle on any scrapper or tank set and saying I need "other" status protection. It has similar restrictions to rooted and granite armor, nobody is forced to take them but they also cannot say they do not have access to status protection either.
You can build an all human if you like but the fact you have no protection to mezz is a flaw in your chosen design not the design of the set.
I'm not overly sorry you don't like it but thats the truth.
They do not redesign an AT to placate the people dedicated to building concept characters.
They said you could build your Kheldian in any manner you like but never made any claims it would be as effective as taking the forms.
This seems to be "their" vision of the AT and playing with or against it is a choice that both sides have to live with the results of their choices. -
Quote:I also wouldn't concider this the best use of a slot ...but if a few of the group your in using eclipse are stunned from this I cannot totaly throw this out as a possibility. I just probably wouldn't do it myself.I believe that Eclipse is the only Warshade power that will benefit from it although I wouldn't really call that a good use of a slot. You won't use Eclipse often enough to really benefit and after using it you are shouldn't need additional mitigation anyway.
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Quote:Your Inherant status ressist IS dwarf form and a tiny bit from controllers. The fact you have chosen to not take this isn't a flaw in the design it's a choice you made in building your character for concept and not effect.
The developers are wrong. We aren't demanding scrapper levels of mezz protection, but we are asking that our inherient mezz protection actually work.
Right now, it does not. Not reliably and certainly not to any degree of fun.
This was already tackled in another thread and if we really are changing how things work so concept builds are not penalized then I want Rooted and Granite form to not have any hinderances and I want alternate Status and ressist toggles that do not have ugly auras in Invulnerability.
Concept characters almost by definition do not work as well as their bread and butter using counterparts, and trying to change this to me makes no sense. -
Quote:I would never argue "fun" that would be pointless, and it's exactly the kind of discussion I try to avoid.Human form is not "equal" to tri-form. They are different. Different in numbers, different in playstyle.
What we seem to REALLY be arguing is "are they equal in FUN?" THAT... is entirely subjective. And since it IS entirely subjective, I will most definitely say beyond a shadow of a doubt, in MY subjective opinion, after playing dual-forms, tri-forms, and several different setups of my human form, that my human form is the MOST fun I've ever had on a Kheld.
Period.
"The One"
If a person comes in and asks "If I master human form only and Tri-Forming playstyle, what build will yeild me the best results in damage and all around performance?" I do not want "Human form is not "equal" to tri-form. They are different. Different in numbers, different in playstyle." as the given answer because it in no way gives them an answer to what they asked.
Your right, you have never directly said human form is equal to the Tri-Form in performance, but you also have never (that I have read) been able to say " The Tri-Form build if done and played correctly will be usefull in more situations and will yeild better numbers over the long haul." and this makes me think it's because you would like more people to play in the style you prefer.
If that is an error on my part my bad, but I do not know why such a simple type question that is commonly asked in many different ways but usually almost always seeking a best way to build and play inquirery always recieves answers avoiding that little disclaimer.
I don't hate mono-forming, I really really do not. What I do hate is when information is left out or discarded as irrelivant based on playstyle. The people who truely prefer human only will always play human only and this is fine in my opinion so long as they know that they will be doing so at a not in my opinion so slight statistical/numerical dissadvantage.
If the numbers don't matter to them good. All the better. But there is a not so small segment of the playerbase who will care to make the build that will (on average) outperform the other types of build and I do not want the facts obscured behind talk of fun and style choice.
People need to be able to make fully informed decisions and plastering the important facts out front helps that. If every proponant of human form used a disclaimer something like "Many enjoy human forms playstyle better but you are in fact losing alot of potential in damage and ability to tank by avoiding the forms." my posts on here would drop by over 50%. -
Honestly I could care less what your friends think as like minded tend to congregate, and you still have said nothing to sway me or anyone to believe a mono-form can do anything a tri-form cannot but without the added benifits of prolonged sustained aoe damage and the ability to truely HOLD agro.
In each and every scenerio you have recalled (that I have read) it's you and whatever large team with a kin or tank or whatever you need to do what a tri-form could do alone.
Your massive damage spike is nothing any competant Kheldian can't pull off. It's not impressive to me, and It's missleading in my opinion.
It's simply not proving the strength of human only builds in my opinion.
And to be honest I find your "Look how awesome I am on my human only Kheld" posts just as comical as you find my posts questioning their impressiveness.
You attempt to sway people to human only and have only anecdotal evidence to do so, and yet totaly refute any math or statistics that shows otherwise.
I was going to end the post with the last line but you wanted to pick apart what I said so it's only fair to return the favor.
You spike the first mob group and I assume use Unchain Essence, maybe Mire, most likely Eclipse with a healthy dose of FS, what do you do on the second mob? Dark Detonation? Unchain probably isnt up mire most likely isn't either unless your sporting a heavy global recharge and are SB'ed, but SB isn't your power It's the Kins.
Even ignoring all that you still don't have the recharge to have unchain up every mob group if your setting the pace you say you are. And Dark Detonation, possibly Mire, Orbiting Death and a few single target attacks are not an effective attack chain if your dealing with 8 man spawns set to anything over heroic unless you literaly can spam Dark Detonation back to back with no stops and that would require more recharge than you can actually get into your build.
Moving on...
If you really want to show me your ability to tank pick an AV, any one will do, and keep the agro on yourself and not others. This is generaly reguarded as Tanking by tankers who would probably know best.
Any AT with sufficient ressits/buffs can jump into an 8 man spawn long enough for everything to be locked in place and killed with sudden spike damage I do it all the time on my WS, jump in Eclipse,Mire, nuke, and in no way am I tanking.
Do I live? most of the time.
Is anyone else taking agro? Not usually, but the mobs die so fast there is no chance for me to be out-agroed. It's still not tanking, It's taking the alpha long enough for everything to be spiked to death.
You like to go on and on about play style being the most important factor. Alright I'll play.
Here is what I would do with your set up, 8 man spawns with a fire/kin in tow with my Tri-Form.
Port or run in if I had SB, Eclipse, wait for FS, then nuke.
Any stragglers the Fire/Kin can mop up since I'm already using Stygian Circle and moving onto the next group in squid form and spamming my AOE's for around 450 a pop with capped ressits. Even without SB I can spam these two back to back adnausium.
If I run into an EB/AV I can go into dwarf form perfectly safe from mez's and using my dwarf heal I can tank the EB/AV usually without support, I'll never kill him (If It's an AV. EB I can kill in dwarf form but slowly.) but I wont die either, and he will never attack anyone else unless there is a Tank there stealing my agro.
In short the only things I cannot do that you can is sit in the middle of a group of mobs smacking them for 26 points of damage every 2 seconds and spam an aoe attack that does ALOT less damage than either of my squid AOE's.
I can, Eclipse, Nuke, Unchain Essence, Stygian Circle, Mirex2, Gravity Well, Gravitic Emmination, Inky Aspect, and Phase, most likely well enough you wouldn't be able to tell visually who's powers were better slotted.
You laugh as if you somehow have the higher ground and proclaim my posts are deteriorating, while your posts really cannot decline as they never held anything but anecdote to begin with.
Your friends think your awesome, this means nothing as mine do too and I could very well be a crappy WS and so could you.
Truth be told I don't find it as funny as you do, probably because you have attempted to take an unassailable position of using nothing in your posts that can be argued because you provide very few facts.
It's a very safe position to take because if you never use any facts or figures then there is nothing that can be proven on either side and you can claim victory with nothing but "well I said it was most fun/best for me" while at the same time making it appear to be a winning playstyle/build to anyone reading.
Anytime you make claims of something being better/worse/equal the burden of proof is on the person making the claims and not the person questioning the claims. You have yet to provide anything that can be measured in any way. You refuse to and I have to question why, other than the obvious "I don't want to/It's not the way I do things/I don't have to."
You may very well be correct, maybe Human form does the job as well, but I cannot figure out how nor why it would given the facts and numbers I have seen, but until you explain it in such a fashion that I can evaluate it for merits (and not rely on the I don't like the forms so it's best for my style arguement) I have to keep calling human form equal to Tri-Form what I believe it to be, bunk. -
Yes, a true testiment to the power of a fire/kin.
I cannot think of an AT/powerset that was even moderately well built who couldn't function well in that scenerio.
And your still not Tanking, your agroing.
Hey look, no numbers...But at least I didn't have to take the time to actually figure anything out to post this.
Totaly unprovable, unfounded statements FTW. -
Quote:
I don't think we'll get Glowing Touch or Reform Essence changed anyway, but if we're very lucky, maybe Castle will see this thread and decide that adding -Res to each PB attack is a good idea.
Thank god, as the first time I heard anyone on my team playing either of my kheldians say the words "HEAL ME!" I would probably kick them then shelve the Khelds because I would know it had finaly reached the point I assumed it eventually would. -
Quote:Actually it's not so much sarcastic as it is me throwing up my hands and saying "whatever".Although I realize this is a very sarcastic post (and I love me some sarcastic humor!)
, I'm hoping that half of it at least is true--the half where I hope we could get you to lighten up just a bit and stop taking everything so seriously... The other half, the part where you like to show why something is good via numbers, I hope remains...
Let's just hope it doesn't come in the form of an extremely argumentative presentation.
"The One"
You believe I take this all too seriously. Maybe, but I will not tell somebody the second best way to do something when they ask "how do I do this?" or "How do I build this?".
I give them the very best numerical possibility I am able to because making second rate builds bothers me when I know there is a better way. Especialy when (at least on paper) It's such a huge margine of better.
If anyone wants to correct me and show me where I made a mistake I'm happy to retract my advice and walk away happy I now know something I did not before.
And seriously if you want a warm hug and an "It's ok, you did great." please call your mother. I don't do that.
If you want the truth and honesty and a "well, you ****** up but here is how you can fix it." then call me.
Some people think I don't know I'm hostile or that i'm not being warm and fuzzy, trust me I know. I'm not here to make friends, I'm here for facts, to help people in the best way I know how, and if every single person on the forums hated my guts but they all got improved builds for it, I would be a happy camper.
I'm not here for the accolades and cheers. I'm here to improve the Kheldian AT. -
Quote:And I have never said there is only one way that can be played.Crap, that means I'll have to keep track of the misinformed assumptions you make of me, just so we're even....(lol)
We'll start with this:
I've never stated that I thought human form was a higher damage dealer than nova. Go ahead. Look up all my past posts. I have stated that I thought it dealt excellent damage, but not "TEH BEST EVAR."
Therefore, I have nothing to "admit to being wrong," as you seem to think.
"The One"
I do however suggest Tri-Form whenever somebody asks how can I improve my build/damage/play as it is the EASIEST way to improve DPS.
Yes, you can work out a strategy to tighten your attack chains limit downtime and all that but if as people keep saying "people don't wanna do alot of work and research" this is the easiest most simple way to improve the play experience on the builds who do not already have this. And in nearly each case I have done this I have gotten an arguement (and I do love to argue and debate) but never will anyone say why NOT to do this with anything substantial that can actually be discussed. It's vague and in more than a few cases missleading and I am tired of argueing improvements with people who truely seem to not want any improvements to be made.
As a side note I am also tired of listening to people claim to be able to tank in human form, maybe they can if they pick up some form of taunt but I never see this in any builds. taking the alpha and absorbing damage is not tanking, and while I realize this is just a poor choice of words it gives the uninformed the wrong idea, and in either case the Dwarf form would always make for a better tanker.
I'll focus on my own build and leave the "informed advice" to the people who obviously know more. -
Quote:No problem at all.If you want to give numbers, then give numbers dont insult the other forums goers. I think if you start giving people your numbers they will repect it and appreciate the effort you put into it. But if you start telling the others they are no good because they dont give numbers then be prepared to be disliked. Not everyone on the forums have the time or the will to start handing out numbers.
Stop acting like it's the end of the world or open up a school were they teach EmoKid 101 -
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Quote:I'm sorry I don't do that anymore, I have recently discovered that number crunching is meaningless compaired to nearly everything else in the game especialy fun and play style.I would like to see some "numbers" from Obsidian on the most effective human-form build, since that is what is what he is asking for. Not beratement on his playstyle of choice.
"The One"
From now on my motto is do whatever, it wont matter. It's all a style preferance thing. -
Meh, don't worry about mid's. Slot what ever you happen across, it won't make a big difference anyways.
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Nevermind, It's clear now. You don't actually need the forms because your damage is as good in human form with the right "play-style" and human can tank just as well as dwarf form with well slotted toggles, perma-eclipse and a few breakfrees.
The forms are actually kind of a waste given all that. -
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Quote:Post-Kheldian retooling, I've been wondering if I could avoid using Nova form entirely.
Mind you, I like the squiddy thingy of doom, but it takes too damn long to flip into it sometimes. Dwarf Mire -> Human -> Mire -> Nova results in the dwarf mire being gone by the time I'm done flipping, and exposes me to a lot of incoming hostility.
I'm wondering if Dwarf Mire -> Human -> Mire -> Blasting might be a tad more efficient. What does Nova have that the Post-I13 humans don't? (Besides flight of course).
You know, I'm tired of this. very.
Abouve is the original post. He is quite clear when he asks an efficiency question.
Did he ask what was more fun? No.
Did he state a prefered style? Nope.
Did anyone on these forums provide him any useful information with which he could make informed logical fact and efficiency based decisions? A few but most drove right into their personal style preference for funzies and not efficiency with absolutely no thought to anything but a gut feeling with no statistical back up, and a total unwillingness to acknowledge that the whole game is based on statistics, its how the damn game is balanced!
And yet people continue to say you don't need math and figures to determine effectiveness. Bullcrap.
I'm so sick of this fluffy cloud mindset that allows people to make any claim they want no matter how wrong or ridiculous because not only do they feel they don't ever have to prove anything but the majority of the forums just rolls along with it without question.
You wanna talk sheep? Not asking questions, not requiring proof is alot more sheep mentality than anything else disscussed here.
My petless Mastermind solos as well as any Brute. Oh wow I see what you mean, thats fun and easy to do.
You want proof? Too bad, I dont have any that can be objectively analyzed and I dont believe any evidence you provide unless it supports my point.
Yeah, I see the light now, this is how the Kheldians will get better, total denial of anything we don't like no matter what facts and numbers say. We can just live oblivious to anything not supporting our views and preferances.
I'm done. Live in medeocrity. I no longer care. -
Quote:I almost missed this.This will be my last post in this thread. I'm done with it. We will A.B.S.O.L.U.T.E.L.Y. N.O.T. change eachother's minds on this. We are very different people and think in very different ways. I can tolerate you and your way of thinking without being "required" to follow your way of thinking about the world--will you be willing to accept the fact that I'm different and tolerate that?
"The One"
Your incorrect, if anyone were to provide me evidence backed up with facts and numbers I would not only retract my statements I would rebuild my WS to the most effective manner, even if that was human only. You however have stated that no matter what evidence or facts are produced you will not budge or admit being wrong.
This is the major difference between us. People who say things like "no matter what you say you will not change my mind." say it because on some level they already know their wrong and have backed themselves into a corner and now have to either fess up to being wrong or do what your doing in saying "Nothing you say will make me change my mind and I refuse to acknowlege any other possibility but my own."
Your dodging facts because you cannot beat them.
The world may or may not be a million years old but carbon dating (yes, science and numbers) would prove if it was or wasn't, because it like so many other things have actually been proven to work and are accepted by people alot smarter than you or me.
Your dislike of the results science and numbers provide in no way detracts from their accuracy. -
Honestly, restricting yourself to human form, "your" damage will not improve, your pets will add to your damage output alot but the only damaging power you really have to look forward to after 28 is quasar and its on a very long timer.
Your human form damage scaler is roughly half what it is in squid form and even below what it is in dwarf. This is the main reason I advocate for Tri-Form builds and attempt to steer people away from human only or mainly human builds.
Careful slotting will mean you get all your good human powers including the pets, and are able to slot them fairly well (4-6 slots each), so your only really loosing the redundant human blasts and things I personaly believe to be of little use like the snare and Orbiting Debt, which are overshadowed by your squid form attacks anyways.
If youre making a concept type build such as human only thats cool, so long as your aware (and willing to admit) your going to have a less able build because of it. -
Quote:Sigh.. let me show you how to rant.. stand back.I really enjoy my fully human WS. I have basically every single toggle that a WS can get: the 3 shields, shadow cloak, inky, and OD. It's really fun and very "tankable." I have like 52% resists and 20% defenses w/o eclipse and as of now I have eclipse on an 8 second down time. But THATS not what this thread is about! It is relevant though. With eclipse I have capped resists, THUS I am great at tanking. I like to run in with OD and inky grabbing a good amount of aggro, then with sunless mire helping out too.... And of course we have 2 fluffy pets killing stuff too! When your level 50 with IOs slotted end is Really not a problem anymore. Most toggles are down to like .10 end/sec. And most of our attacks are really low too. So, if you have made it this far in my rant, here is the only important part: Orbiting Death is a *very* good power with respectable damage.
Great you have every single toggle (I get the same ressists as you without any of them) and it's very fun. Good so far. You are not Tankable because you cannot hold agro since you have no Taunt aura or Taunt, Tanks are not Tanks because they can soak up damage they are tanks because they can hold agro on them no matter what is done to the mobs up to about 15 mobs, you cannot.
Orbiting death is NOT a good damage power and here is why. With ACTUAL NUMBERS (god forbid anyone is forced to prove their theories with you know...actual facts.
Hotfeet) from Blasters unslotted (I use unslotted numbers on both because slotting wont change the ratios) will do 13.9 points of damage every 2 seconds (and provides a substantial slow -70% besides) for an end cost of 1.04/second.
Orbiting Death), your "very good respectable damage" power will do 8.04 damage every 2 seconds (and provides no other effects) for an end cost of .78/second
Blazing Aura) 11.1 damage .78 endurance/second.
Seems close right? Only here is the thing, Hotfeet is taken by fire controllers for the slow not for the "respectable damage and its usually slotted as such or as a IO mule for sets, and blazing aura isn't taken by most fire blasters because staying in melee waiting for the damage to tick off slowley (still faster than OD but slow) while mobs beat on them instead of you know, playing towards the AT and using their ranged (or hell, even their melee) attacks.
Any aoe attacks and I mean any will outperform the damage of OD both in damage and in endurance used. I havent run the math but I suspect a Defender (You know, one of the lowest damage scalers in the game) using only a well slotted aoe attack would outdamage a fully slotted Orbiting Death.
Please stop "Setting the record straight" without having any numbers (or a clue) to support what you are saying. Because here are the facts.
#1 Tri-Form can do anything a mono-form can do and do it well enough only the math (you know the stuff you all seem to want to avoid anyways?) can tell the difference.
#2 In addition Tri-Form or Duo form have access to abilities you simply dont have, they can either out-damage you or out-tank you or both.
#3 Your damage scaler is almost half what squid form is and still below dwarf form and dwarf form can chain their mire adnausium until your sad little attack chain damage is crying in a corner with a complex. And Tri-Forms are still able to do the same exact damage spikes you can (normaly with just as much damage acc and recharge or again so close only the evil maths could tell) with Unchain and Quasar so please keep going with the equality of the builds..
These are all facts that have been proven over and over and over again, and yet here we are listening to yet another round of "I think but wont touch any numbers to prove it because I'm going on gut feeling, videos, and my Tarot cards" line of crap.
Now that is how you do a rant. -
There is no call for more damage, but there is also no call for any changes at all in my opinion.
The people who are asking for (some would say radical) changes are the ones unhappy with the AT as it is (a predominantly damage focused AT with a few minor other tricks)
So in return I could have just said "go roll a damn emp". Thats not how I feel so I did not. This however in no way means I have to agree to changes that would alter either the focus or the percieved focus of the AT, which is in case anyone missed it, damage.