OVWyx_EU

Ice/Energy is still probably the strongest of the conventional builds for PvP/soloing/single target plus very good survivability in teams including sub-standard ones.

Elec/En and Elec/Elec are both very popular, although I think having played in Ice/Energy if you blapped with it you would probably find either of those combinations a little dissapointing as they're similar, but not quite as good in a lot of respects.

For PvE builds Fire/Ice is a very nice combination you don't see used much, although tight on endurance it's good for teaming and good for soloing. Shiver and Ice Patch both really help the survivability of a high damage AOE primary, I've been really impressed with this combination.

Fire/Energy is also very good, Fire/Elec is OK if you wanted to try something that didn't give you a secondary you'd already used. The Fire Primary in general is very strong for PvE, adding a secondary that gives you a good measure of survivability really helps.

Ice/Ice/Cold is great for a high control build, plays quite differently to Ice/Energy as well so might not feel too much like you'd "done it all before" so to speak. Ice/Ice is nice for a PvP build that's a little different from the norm as well. Works pretty well against certain character types that give your more standard blapping builds a hard time.

Energy Blast I have no real experience of other than the annoyance of teaming with bad ones, knockback drives me nuts, I always delete them before they get to level 20.

Sonic, again, I haven't played, but for teaming I like the set overall. My only concern is a lot of the long animation times. Teaming with one is fun though, lots of damage and boost to team damage from the -res. I teamed quite a bit with a Sonic/Energy Blaster a while back and was really impressed with what he did with the build.

Bleh, there's lots of fun ones out there.

I'd go for avoiding Archery and AR from the primaries. I wouldn't advise Elec with anything other than Elec or Energy secondary, as you'll get no milage at all out of end drain, without that you might as well take something that does more damage.

From the secondaries Fire is still not fantastic for survivability, although if you took a high control primary you could make it work, it always feels a little messy. If you really wanted AOE damage I'd just take the Fire Primary which has more than enough AOE capability, and add a secondary to support it. I'd also avoid devices secondary unless you're building to PvP and/or solo a lot, in which case with certain primaries it can be very good. In a team situation with /devices, you just end up getting outdamaged by the blaster with aim and build up who's doing more front loaded damage. Electricity Manipulation while quite good, has little that Energy doesn't do better, although Elec does look a lot cooler.

Re: Pulling aggro.

If you use single target attacks you shouldn't get much if any, there's no harm having AOEs for when it's possible to use them. Having attacks also helps you deal with any incidental aggro you pull, particularly if a stun, sleep or knockback is part of the attack you take, it can also help protect the team combined with buffing and healing.

I find little more annoying as an empath as having the your team start to scatter because the a single boss has charged the three squishies at the back and they're all thinking about pegging it, being able to throw him back neatly to the tank's feet before he reaches them is extremely useful. I find picking carefully a few suitable attacks can add to what a Defender can offer a team, rather than detract from time which many feel should be spent healing or buffing.

I have never understood how it is so hard to manage primaries and some blasting on an Empath, when I can do it on a Kinetic which is a busier set, but at the same time, people can build their characters how they want as far as I'm concerned. It doesn't necessarily mean I would want to team with them of course, but then I'm quite cranky, so there's lots of things I don't like to team with.

And yes, I do have an Empath, level 37 although I haven't played her much recently. I found at lower level I focussed pretty much entirely on the primary, I respecced her at about level 31 or 32 to take a couple of extra blasts, ones with useful side effects as it struck me as sensible, and I'll still get the leadership pool on her.

I would definitely have respecced her to have some offensive capability sooner if it wasn't for the fact that at the time I was playing with a friend I met on the US server who was (medically, not being rude) retarded, and the teams he ran, extremely enthusiastically and very badly due to some severe memory issues, really did need someone to do nothing except buff and heal. I focussed all my slotting on the primary so waited to take attacks until I could spare some slots for them.

Overall though I see no reason why Empathy should be any different from any other Defender primary in that it's good to play with a good one, not good to play with a bad one, and incredibly irritating to play with one who thinks he's the sole reason the team is doing well when in actual fact they're making a pretty substandard contribution.

The only real difference is there's so damn many Empaths, so many of them are awful, and yet people still make a massive fuss about them all the time like they are the best thing since sliced bread. I have to admit that my absolute least favourite type of team is the Tanker/3 Empath Defenders (none of whom are blasting)/3 x/Empath controllers (none of whom are controlling) and my blaster. Particularly as when I have ended up in teams like that I have inevitably had to ask for Clear Mind every single time I've needed it. Meanwhile the entire team is congratulating itself on "Oh my god this is so great, so many healz lol".

My opinion of EMP has always been that it's a potentially very good power that simply isn't worth the endurance penalties on most blaster builds in most situations. Therefore unless you have power choices and slots to burn, I wouldn't take it. Too situational for my tastes.

My Elec/Elec was a character I put a lot of time in to, it was definitely my favourite blaster for a long time. I made an Elec/Energy and an Ice/Energy to see how they both compared a while back.

The Elec/Energy I still have and I do like it. It's better in most respects than the Elec/Elec. Having stuns in attacks is more slot conserving than having to slot a seperate hold in my secondary, all the little extras in the Energy secondary are quite nifty although I have little use for boost range. I initally wanted to look at taking this one down the end drain route as well, but I didn't. End drain to me is not that awesome now on a blaster, my kinetic does it far better for a lot less effort. Given the choice of combining Power Build Up with Short Circuit or with Total Focus, I decided on Total Focus.

Overall, stronger than the Elec/Elec, certainly for PvP, although for soloing in PvE the Elec/Elec still has some advantages. Essentially just a reflection of the fact that Energy manipulation is far and away the best secondary. Either secondary works with Elec Blast though, and my Elec/Elec with a full PvE build currently is a very nice character to play. I have her built to drain, it works well for soloing combined with holds, I don't use it a lot when teaming. By the time I've drained them, they probably could have been dead.

The Ice/Energy I deleted when I got bored with it. It was kind of like a blaster with training wheels.

This was my understanding, I remember it being discussed when they merged the two enhancement types, and from the occasions I've slotted range in cones I'm pretty certain it's right. Of course it's hard to give a definite answer without some very specific and tricky to set up testing which I haven't done, but it certainly appears to be.

If you want your cone to be wider use it at the edge of it's range - of course that is true whether you extend the range on it or not.

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I'll be home from work by 8:30ish so if I can join a tad late then I'll be there. It would be nice if a raid could be organised at some time or day other than 7pm on Friday because this regular slot is probably excluding a lot of people who regularly work at this time. Just a suggestion.

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Red, the 7:00 start is more like a 7:45 start generally, once things actually get going - I don't think 100 people online ever started anything anywhere near on time.

None have finished before 8:30 yet, although the last couple haven't been too much past that.

If you know you're going to be late I'd suggest logging yourself out on Coward's Hill so you can log in there and you should at least make the majority of the holding phase. Not exactly making the whole raid, but you'll get yourself a HO out of it.

If you're fairly certain you'll be around for the end of it just let me know and I can save you a spot in a team.

Wyx

Will be there, pretty much bound to have a controller in range by then, although I think I've been saying that for the last couple of months it actually should will happen this time.

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I'm wondering what Dreadful Wail would be like in there instead for even more stacked -res....

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I'm guessing pretty good. I really liked the idea of Dark/Sonic so I made one recently (and so far I'm enjoying the character, although I suspect endurance problems will cause me some annoyance fairly soon). I've agreed with my husband to keep that at the same level as his current scrapper though, so it'll be a chilly day in hell before I can tell you much about how Dreadful Wail works with Dark.

Team PvP where we could actually pick our own teams would definitely sound more appealing to me, although not necessarily Pentad.

That's pretty much irrelevant however, given there are very few situations where you'd be repeatedly spamming the poorest attack in your attack chain. Add that to the fact that endurance is going to be a bit of an issue with this combination and I'd go for the lower endurance cost attack, and keep the immobilise to do exactly that.

If you wanted to make use of the immobilise in PvP for it's minus fly capability, it may be worth sticking a couple of accuracy enhancements and possibly a range enhancer in there, but for a build primarily geared towards PvE, I simply wouldn't bother with anything more than the default slot - the only time it's of real use is in AV fights.

To the initial question:

Elec/Ice overall you're not talking about a high damage build, also a bit of a contradiction. The main benefit of /Ice is that it does make it possible for you to really keep enemies at range. Ice Patch and Shiver are excellent tools for this, however in order to get the most out of your limited damage capability you're really going to have to go in to mele.

For a PvE build I'd use Ball Lightning and Short Circuit for AOEs. Short Circuit on it's own for endurance drain isn't worth the trouble (definitely not worth slotting for it), but the damage is OK for an AOE, so three slotted for damage you can really increase your overall damage output especially in team situations.

Charged Bolts, Lightning Bolt, Ice Sword and probably Frozen Fists I'd go with for single target damage, slotting combination of accuracy, damage, recharge and endurance reducers as required.

Voltaic Sentinal I avoid like the plague. The damage is not that great, it's damage over time not burst damage, it's not buffable, it's not controllable, it costs a lot of endurance.

Shiver is absolutely fantastic as slows go, and slows are damn useful anyway. Slotted with two accuracy and two slows (plus probably one endurance reducer, you'd need it I think on most builds) can be extremely useful in cutting down on the damage taken.

Ice Patch is lovely, particularly for soloing, works fine straight out the box, one recharge and you're sorted.

Tesla Cage and Freezing Touch will make handing bosses quite easy although it wont be as quick as on some higher damage builds, slotted both for accuracy and holds, plus probably and endurance reducer in Freezing Touch (the cost isn't as heavy as, for example, Shocking Grasp, but it's still quite a chunk for a set that gets no endurance recovery power).

Pool power wise I agree that Hasten would be very useful, you're not exactly wading in great high damage attacks so having the best ones available as often as possible will certainly be advisable.

Flight does not mesh with /Ice at all. You need to be on the ground to use Ice Patch, which then means you're losing all your knockback protection when you want to use it. In addition to which as overall the build is almost going to have to include a fair amount of time in mele to get a reasonable level of damage, I'd want leaping for it's hold/knockback protection.

Would that work for casual PvP? As well as any casual PvP build works. I tend to find that zone PvP with casual builds in teams of two or three works very well, probably not in the arena.

Elec/Ice overall is going to be best for team PvP basically because it's not an awesome combination for PvP, but could be tweaked to cause people some real problems. Combine slows and -fly with a character that does reasonably good damage output and you start to cause a lot of character types issues - if you try and make a conventional Blapper type PvP build it wont work, so you'd need to do something a little more original.

Have fun.

*sigh*

Voltaic Sentinal is a low damage pet, Chillblain is an immobilise and Freezing Touch is a hold (as is Tesla Cage which you seems to have slipped through the net), all of which I know you're well aware of.

Which leaves four single target attacks, plus a snipe.

Yes, I know the holds and the immobilise do some damage in addition to their primary functions, that does not, to my mind, make them attacks.

No, I am saying that at a certain point number crunching becomes obsolete if you don't consider how the AT plays in addition to the figures.

If all you're worried about is single target damage against an AV or another person in PvP you're discounting a large proportion of the game, and in some character's cases a large proportion of the powers available.

Elec/Ice has single target holds, a sleep, a questionably useful end drain, a PB placable knockdown, and a fantastic slow power, which, incidentally, if you can survive long enough, really doesn't sit well with Regen Scrappers for example, and will bugger up someone's single target attack chain pretty nicely. It also gets four (pretty substandard by blaster standards) single target attacks, five if you count the snipe, and comes with sufficient endurance issues you wont be wanting to use AOEs as part of a single target attack chain unless someone is boosting your end regen.

Broadsword/Regen gets a bloody great sword, and a variety of self healing/survival type powers, and a great endurance recovery power.

That is why I don't think a direct comparison of ST damage over time is a good way to compare the two character types.

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I think you'd need to have atleast a 10 min attack chain thats min/maxxed adding up all potential numbers able to hit too eek results out taking into account what you can get to an end bar, how long end rec takes and then decide who has most raw damage potential and then on who has most survivability to conduct so much damage before defeat.

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Where as I think you would get a better idea playing the game and seeing how the sets work, not crunching out 10 minutes worth of hypothetical numbers. Blasters, Defenders and Controllers, are just not as simple as "run up and hit it and use the optimal pre-calculated attack chain for the best DPS", you really do have to approach them with a certain flexibility, or you'll spend a lot of time looking at the floor from very close up, particularly with Blasters.

Defiance is not a factor at the sort of level where you'd have that big an attack chain.

Scrappers seem to critical against bosses a lot more than 10% of the time, although that could just be my perception. Thunderous Blast is hardly part of the standard attack chain. Add to the fact your blaster is a lot squishier and probably isn't just using attacks, unlike the scrapper who will probably attack pretty much constantly. The Blaster I would imagine would use both Tesla Cage and Shiver in their attack chain, both of which have long animations, and may also use Ice Patch, although that'd be less likely in a team situation. Factoring everything together, there really shouldn't be a great deal in it.

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Blaster damage > kin defender damage on a PuG, but we're talking about a team of friends who probably know what they're doing and will run with a tanker.

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So am I, Blasters do more damage.

I know the maths on Kinetic damage with Fulcrum Shift. Yes, the majority of the time a Kinetic will function at or near the cap, but it's not a given that you automatically arrive pre-put at the 400% cap because there are other powers that you may find it necessary to use, you may not always play in a large team, and that pesky blaster stood next to you might kill half your mobs before you get chance if you're not quick about it.

In addition to which the Blaster stood next to you is at the 500% cap, doing a whole bucket load more damage that your kinetic in the same situation.

I play in regular SG teams with people who know the game very well. My Kinetic has and often does out damage Blasters in Pick up Teams, but not decent ones. Blasters do more damage than Kinetic Defenders because of what happens in the first part of the fight when Aim and Build up are active. In a large team with a lot of damage dealers a Kinetic may and certainly should increase the overall damage by a larger amount than the difference between a Kinetic's damage and a Blaster's damage, but Defenders quite simply do not do as much damage themselves.

Max, although you're not looking at aim, you're also not taking criticals in to account, it'd be a close run thing, but I think the Scrapper would probably have it in single target.

If you want to demonstrate a Blaster type that's outdone by scrapper types in single target damage, Elec/Dev is, but only if you don't take in to account telemining.

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I'd love to see how elec/ice will outdamage BS/regen.

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That's a pretty weak combination, but I think it'd be doable. Ball Lightning and Short Circuit (slotted for damage - no point slotting for endurance drain with Ice Secondary) and in a team I think you'd do it. You could add the Electricity Epic for another AOE and you'd be there. Single target it'd be moderately weak, but with some interesting abilities that Broadsword/Regen wouldn't give you.

Firstly, Kinetic Defenders do not run at 400% all the time, although in a big enough team you will usually be able to get there the majority of the time.

Secondly, you are going to be devoting some of your time to buffing, debuffing etc, in a large enough team to be getting mob size to cap on damage this takes a fairly noticably amount of time - you wont spend more than half your time blasting unless you totally neglect your primary, or expect everyone to stop and stand still for 20-30 seconds every time you need to SB/ID them.

Finally, and most importantly, Blasters are not about damage over time. This is where number crunching fails you next to knowledge of how they actually play. Blasters are about front loaded damage, even if you stagger Aim and Build up, which is sometimes appropriate, it is unlikely that the majority of the mobs will not be dead within the first 20 seconds of the fight, with an AOE based blaster using Aim and Build Up together after the first 10 seconds all you have left are the scraps, at which stage I'd probably be finishing up with some nice mele attacks you as a Defender you simply do not have anything to rival, for example, Bonesmasher, Energy Punch and Total Focus to finish off that boss. Damage over time is meaningless in most practical situations, certainly ones where you have a Tanker rounding things up.

I have only ever come accross one Kinetic who could give even the lower damage of my Blasters a run for their money damage wise, and that is not a Defender, it's a Controller which I built myself to see if I could do exactly that.

That's correct, but really, with Kin primary, if I were taking the Thunderous Blast (and I would) I'd slot it 3 damage and 3 recharge, not for drain. Why Drain them, when you could just kill them instead?

Not to mention the fact you have Transferrance and Short Circuit for any survivors.

Slotting Short Circuit and Transferrance for Endurance Modification, and with the Power Ancilliary pool for Power Build up, you would have an extremely impressive drain based build, while still using the Nuke and any other attacks you might take for damage. Think of the drain on the other attacks as just a top up - it can help to keep enemies drained, but is sufficiently low that enhancing it would give you no noticable return.

You will not do as much damage as a well built blaster. I have played with and played both, you simply will not. If a Kinetic Defender is outdamaging a Blaster ever they have a terrible build. Kin/Psi is a great set, but even capped out you do less damage than a blaster without any outside buffs, you can make a good versatile build, but you simply cannot outdamage a well built blaster.

Defender damage starts to become quite nice when you have a rad or a dark, along with a Kinetic, the combined buff/debuff makes for a pretty good damage output - certainly my Kinetic is extremely effective in that sort of a team as I do have a moderately offensive build on her, but I don't for a minute kid myself that I wouldn't be outdamage by a well built blaster in the same situation, and by a fairly considerable margin. I'm not a big one for relying completely on numbers to see how the game works, a lot of it is how the sets play together which I think some of the forum number crunchers tend to miss out on, but in this particular case you really do only need to look at the numbers to see that Blasters do more damage.

However that isn't really any reason not to do it, the damage isn't bad, but the main strength is in your boost to your team's damage, which is most noticable on blasters and scrappers. If the team you're making includes Blasters and Scrappers then your Kinetic will add massively to the team's damage output. Partly in your own damage, Kinetics is a defender set that allows you to slot your secondary without any real sacrifice to your primary, simply because you do not need many attacks to have a good attack chain, but mostly in your boost to your team member's damage.

My main arguement is with the "we have a tanker and a healer sorted" like it's a necessity. Neither are. It's an idea I can't understand, the EU servers are horrendous for it, two out of every three defenders I meet are empathy, over half the level 50 defenders on Union are empathy and a good proportion of the controllers, whenever I try to do anything with people from outside our SG the "but don't we need a healer" thing crops up, even in level 50 teams and from people who have multiple level 50 characters. It is really, seriously, not a requirement for a decent team. Nor is a tanker. Like most sets, in certain circumstances, certain character types are more efficient, a well balanced team is good fun to play with, but these character types are not necessarily the requirements for one, in fact some of the best teams I play in have neither.

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Note: The above is satire. I like buff/debuff sets a lot, and have a Forcefield Defender myself. I'm just annoyed that the Devs decided to make a bunch of badges exclusively for healers, including 3 SG-healing badges that unlocks extremely worthwhile hardware.

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Ditto, in a permanently full and active SG we do not have a single Empathy Defender. Strangely, we have simply never "needed a healer".

Totally unintentional, I assure you.

I find that views on inspirations, in and out of PvP, tend to be very dependant on what archetype people usually play. Squishy characters tend to use more inpsirations in general, not just in PvP, and be quite dependant on break frees for survival. I would no more consider PvPing without them than I would go in to a Carnie or Malta mission without them. Even if I'm teamed with someone who offers status protection, I still want a couple, just incase it drops at the wrong moment.

I'll be there, Controller, blaster or defender. Given how much stacked AM there was today (12 lots in the holding phase!) if we're looking at a similar turn out I'll just bring something with a hold rather than my kinetic, just for the sake of being idle.

Have:

1 x Dam/Mez and 1 x Resistance/End Red.

Would like:

Dam/Accs.

Drop me a global tell or a PM if interested.

Cheers,

Wyx