NordBlast
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Posts
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Quote:I think, Chriffer meant that you can't perform single transaction in excess of 2 Billions using market. That was said in the referrence to PvPIOs.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
What game have you been playing where you think players are limited to only holding 2 billion inf? When you place a bid on the market that money is removed from your character. Each slot in the market can hold a bid for 2 billion inf. And everyone knows there are more than one item that is listed in the market that has been removed from play in the game. Players use those items to "bank" inf over 2 billion.
Thus using the trade feature players can easily sell things for more than 2 billion by making multiple trade transactions. Once 2 billion is reached a player only has to bid 2 billion on something like a Wentworths Teleporter Inspiration and his character can hold another 2 billion.
A level 1 character with only 3 market slots can hold 8 billion inf. 2 billion on the character itself and 6 billion in bids on nonexistant items.
Real black market transactions are happening now and will happen whether BBO presented or not. And my guess, it is more likely seller will put very rare item on market if he sees reasonable bid as opposite to he doesn't know what bids are out there. -
Quote:Well, I'm not familiar with what type of information markets provided during 1960 and how such information or lack of it were/would affect The Gas Wars. But, I have been keeping tab on stock, options and futures markets since early nineties. Most of exchanges were forced to open more and more information either because of competitors pressure, through goverment regulations or on their own. Majority traders, I have chance to talk to, were welcoming every new iteration of the information disclosure.Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
The gas wars of the 1960s. An example of a system which provided all the information which was not a good thing.
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Quote:I didn't get reference... Would you care to explain?Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Two words: "Gas Wars"
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Quote:Conversely it creates more competition between marketeers leading to narrowing spread between BBO.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Conversely the increased transparency benefits marketeers a lot, we can more easily get good deals on items that we otherwise might miss out on. Sure we'll get a bit less on our sales but we'll more than make up for it with our purchases.
While there are alot of players who are just impatient, the market lag is another driving force to make player impatient. It take anywhere from few seconds to more than 1 minute for system to process your bid. Have you try to creep bid lets say for "magical conspiracy" from 500K to 1.5M in 50K increments? How often will you do it? Isn't it more likely that you will try it in 250K increment or will say "eff it" and bid 1.5M right away? After that you might see post in "Market and Inventions" forum where "Ebil" marketeer expresses joy and calls buyer lazy and stupid because his "Magical Conspiracy" listed for 1,251,234 inf was sold for 1.5M insted of 1.3M. If system displayed BBO and it happened to be best offer, I'd simply bid 1.26-1.3M and take it out instead trying to bidcreep and end up paing 1.5MQuote:Nope, it benefits the patient and shafts the impatient. Buyers benefit a lot by being able to place buy orders and purchase things while they aren't physically standing in the market. Additionally most people are both buyers and sellers (they sell their drops and buy what they want) so the pricing tends to balance out. The only people who get the shaft are the ones who insist on buying shinys immediately no matter the cost, and to be honest they are going to get the shaft no matter what system is used. The double blind system means that people who are patient can get good deals without needing to spend time camping the AH leaving more time available to play the game.
I'd love to see historical information as well.Quote:I would actually like the market to display more information. But the information I'd like to see is more historical data, at least the last 24 hours although an option to see the last week would be nice. This would be a much better way of closing the knowledge gap between marketeers and non-marketeers than increasing the knowledge of the market at the present time. Increasing present time knowledge encourages BUY IT NAO and SELL IT NAO mentalities which generally result in you getting the worst prices. Increasing historical knowledge makes it easier to see what the true market value is.
But, having present time knowlege doesn't prevent you from waiting for better market conditions than lack of such knowledge. It gives you ability, given that you consider existent bids/ask is reasonable, to buy/sell desired item right away instead of taking wild guesses. In no way this system will prevent you from placing low price bid/ high price offer if you don't like current prices.
Yes, I know. I was trying to come up with some solution for sellers who have insufficient funds to list their item at price they wanted to sell.Quote:This is another change that only really benefits marketeers. Currently we're forced to list items at a price where we know they will sell in our desired time frame since pulling them and relisting at a lower price is expensive and really cuts into our bottom line. Allowing us to relist items for free means we can do more expensive pricing to try and maximize our profits without worrying about the cost if they don't sell/
It isn't store. There is no place in my suggestion where I'm advacating to make it store. There is nothing that would prevent you from placing a bid and walking away to do mish or 2.Quote:Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
how about /unsigned. the market is not a store. it is not a market. it is an auction/consignment house. for the love of god, stop using it as a store. place a bid and go walk away and do a mish or 2 and your bid should fill or you may drop what you needed.
also, if the bids are not what a player thinks is high enough to sell on the market it will go off market. this will hurt everyone.
BTW, you can hardly call majority of Stock, Options and Futures markets throughout the world that operate in similar mode as the stores -
Quote:Somehow I fail to see how providing more information would require spending more time following the market than we already have. You'd have to spend more time following the market when you have less information about it.Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The problem with this is that it actually hurts casual players more than marketeers. Marketeers don't make profits due to a lack of transparency on the market (well we do, but it's not our primary profit source) we make most of our profits due to the fluctuations in the supply (and therefore price) of an item over time. Increased transparency of pricing means that casual players will tend to get less for their items.
Increased transparency only tells you the state of the market at a moment in time. Unless you are willing to spend the time following it you don't know how much the item is actually worth, only what people are bidding/asking right now.
Here are 2 images of AAPL's quotes. First includes top of book and time &sales, second includes only time&sales. You getting much more information with first.
That system benefits the seller and "shafts" the buyer.Quote:Currently if a players lists an item below market price they still tend to get something close to the market price since people have no way of knowing exactly what their asking price is. With visible prices anything priced below market price will get snapped up at exactly that price almost immediately. So prices for marketeers will go down. We're the ones who would be checking the market regularly for low bit items to snap up. Conversely the price that BUT IT NAO players pay is unlikely to change, they will just be able to see exaclty what it is.
I disagree that system based on hiding information is fairer than system providing information.Quote:A double blind auction system is actually one of the fairest market designs out there. The problem is that it requires a bit more effort to learn than the others. The upside is that if you don't learn it you will still tend to get a fair market price when selling.
Listing valuable item for throwaway price puts you at risk that someone buys it at that price in absence of high bidders. Having best bid information will exclude such risk, so you can avoid listing you valubales unless you have sufficient funds to do it.Quote:Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
/unsigned
This would defeat the purpose of the highest bid going to the lowest sales price. If you can see what the asking prices are your just going to bid the lowest amount listed and screw over that seller.
For example a player gets an extremely valuable drop that normally sells for 50 million but for whatever reason he can only afford to set a price of 2-3 million. under your suggestion instead of getting the true value of the drop, you'd be able to snag it for far less than it's worth.
Another solution can be folding listing fees into transaction fees.
You already have this information. If you have bids on item then you can reliably sell it for 1 inf, if you have item offered, you can reliably buy it for 2B.Quote:Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Agreed. On the other hand, I can see an argument for the opposite: display the highest list price, and display the lowest bid price. A potential buyer see that ABCD is the highest list price, and knows that bidding higher than that will guarantee a purchase right now (of course, you'll actually purchase from the lowest listed seller, not the displayed one). A potential seller see the lowest bid price, and knows that listing lower than that will guarantee a sale right now (of course, you'll actuall sell to the highest bidder, not the displayed one).
I'm not convinced that would be a good idea, but I think it's a better idea than what the OP is proposing.
Why? How?Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
Now that I understand what he means, I'll have to /unsign it also.
If this were implemented you'd quickly see a BLACK black market/wents expand. (There is already one for PVP IOs sold away from wents/black market). I'd rather not see more stuff taken OFF the market and sold for price levels at 3 times what it goes for on the market. -
Quote:I'm usually skipping DamageOriginally Posted by GATE-keeper
Level 50 Inv/SS tank. I currently have all my melee attacks six-slotted with Crushing Impact. I plan to begin gradually replacing the CI's with Hecatomb's. I'm wondering if it is feasible to only 5-slot them and am wondering which Hecatomb to skip?
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Quote:Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
What is a BBO price?
Please explain.That's correct.Quote:Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I think it means Best Bid/Offer, as in the highest standing bid and lowest standing sale price.
Let me put here some example.
Item: Numina++ level 50 recipe
Bids | Offers
25M | 30M
20M | 35M
18M | 37M
.......|...
500K| 1.5B
In this example BBO will be 25M/30M
Player coming to the market to buy this item can make instant decision if they want to buy it for 30M or not. So, if the do, they placing 30M bid ant take this item home. If they don't, they can place bid anywhere below ask price and wait. The same way seller can decide if they want instasell for 25M or not -
Anybody seeing this kind of netgraph on ITF?
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My search-fu is bad, and I don't remember seeing similar suggestions in the last 6 months.
So, I'm proposing to add display of BBO prices (or maybe even few price levels) to the market interface.
It would streamline player's interaction with market, by allowing to make instant decision whether to go into "BUY/SELL IT NOW" mode or not.
IMO, it will make market much more transparent and will simplify ability of buyers and sellers to find each other.
I understand that an implementation of such proposal will make a life of marketeers in some aspects more difficult and other aspects easier. But marketeers are of my least concern.
Discuss... -
Quote:I'd rather see devs making BBO (best bid/offer) information visible or even show few levels of the book than them implementing restriction on reselling.Originally Posted by Thunderforce
The market mechanics aren't set in stone; they could presumably be changed to make life more convenient for people who buy stuff to use and sell stuff to get rid of it.
For example. a restriction on reselling of goods that have already passed through the market or an interplayer trade would make being a marketer considerably more difficult. For clarity, I'm not saying I think that's a good idea; the ramifications are certainly not obvious. -
Quote:For me, as a buyer that very rarely goes into "BUY IT NAO" mode, flippers indeed have raised the price or/and made me bid_creep/wait_for_fill longer. If they provided any benefit, it was for "BUY IT NAO" crowd and that is irrelevant in my case.Originally Posted by UberGuy
The bolded part is critical, and at the heart of the position that anyone who can't wait some period of time is impatient, and that if they come here and complain about paying a lot without any effort to wait then they are being lazy and feeling overly entitled.Quote:Originally Posted by Another_Fan 
The flipper has raised the price, and or wasted the buyers time.
A flipper does not raise the price unless the buyer insists on paying the flipper by buying right then. Note that there is some chance that a "buy it nao" player may end up paying less for a given item than they would have otherwise since flippers usually reduce price volatility and draw down the top-end price. However, this isn't guaranteed, and in any case depends heavily on the bidding behavior of the "buy it nao-er" -
Quote:Please keep posting... Your nerdrage is so entertaining.Originally Posted by eryq2
Tell that to the people actually wanting the pieces and having to wait and wait and wait and wait and wait........ for bids to actually fill. AND to fill at "their" reasonable price. OH, wait, what's reasonable again? It's whatever they ARE MADE to HAVE to pay in order to even get the damned pieces from WW, that may go months without even filling. You're right. It's not a store, therefore we are made to buy the "luxuries" from the people that can play the game for 5 hours a day and decide what "reasonable" is.
On a side note, i just crafted 5 Posi's, Oblits, and Decimations at level 35 from a toon that i had to stop in order to get those recipes. Checked WW. Guess what? 0 for sell. Hm. I'd never have thought. I just threw them in a bin for future use instead of placing on the market for someone that can actually use them now. Don't seem quite right, does it?
I'm not trying to dictate how you play, but i'm already being made to play your way if i choose to take part in what i like to do and IO toons. More recipes for sale would not kill the game. I think the game was fine before WW was intro'd. therefore, it'd be fine with people actually having more recipes to IO more toons. To say it wouldn't, well, sir, you can't prove that Hyper. -
Quote:Random TF recipe wasn't at TF level, it was at the level of your character (-0 -3). That's why few people I know, kept level 43 toons to run KHTFs. It was maximum level where you can get Miracle+ as a reward.Originally Posted by Ironblade
This is subject to debate. There is now a great scarcity of mid-range level recipes. When you got a random TF recipe, it was at the TF level. Now, when you take a random roll, it's either at your level or as high as the set goes.
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Quote:Originally Posted by gec72
So really what you guys are saying then is that the merit cap is too high.
I guess I understand - it's like having liquidity in real estate, or gold, or foreign currency, or whatever. And for those with vast amounts of inf, no use in cashing them in if they really don't need to. If you're given a drop on the spot, you're forced to deal with it much sooner.
I guess what I don't get is folks in the same forum lamenting that there isn't enough supply, but at the same time admitting that their own actions help lead to the lack of supply. And then that the devs should do something about it. Isn't that more or less saying "Well, we can't really control our own behavior. Devs, you need to do something to force us into acting in the best interest of the markets?" That in essence, the devs gave the players too much freedom?
NordBlast: before merits, were you still running two TF a day? Were you selling the drops?
I ran more TFs before i13. It was at least 2 KHTFs and 1 ITF daily, 2 Speedens back to back almost daily. Cap SF red side. LGTF, STF, Manti, Hess few times a week.
Junk was vendored, Numina++, Miracle+, LotG 7.5, Jump and Run StealthIO hoarded, other stuff was sold on market.
As soon as toon reached lvl39 it was used as eden opener exclusively. I stopped leveling one of my toons when it reached level 43. It was used only to run TFs that won't give XP.
While I understand that you remark wasn't directed only at me, I want to say that I never complained regarding supply/demand and markets. If there are enough people with similar behavioral traits as mine regarding drops and merits, then no one should be surprised with current market state. -
Quote:I don't know how widespread it is. But I am one of them.Originally Posted by gec72
Well, I definitely agree with the last one. But do we know for a fact that merits are being hoarded, and by hoarded do you mean saved for a higher level, or not rolled at all?
I'm hoarding merits on toons that completely IO'd. I also have been waiting to hit level 50 before doing any rolls on toons that weren't IO'd. Few of my toons are sitting on 5K+ merits each.
Majority of these merits are from TFs: at least one ITF and one LGTF daily, Manti, Numina, Kahn, STF few times a week.
One of my friends has multiple toons at merits cap.
So, you have definately 2 players who are doing that
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Try to get one that spawned at Potter Field. That spawn point has 2 destinations that are far away from drones.
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Quote:As people already mentioned it, it isn't client side lag, it is a server lag.Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain
I don't have any performance drops ANYPLACE in this game.
I will re-read your OP.
But, is it possible this is on your end?
I could have 900 foes on top of me in a Bugged Rikti Raid with 900 players with me, and I don't think I will get choked up.
It manifests itself in such way, that client thinks that power has been recharged but server thinks it hasn't. So you cannot activate you powers even they are shown as recharged. Another manifestation of this kind of lag I observed during anivesary and carnie invasion events: once summoned PA was out for more than 5 minutes while they should have been despawned after 1 minute. -
Quote:Somehow, I'm afraid, devs going to dedicate resources to further curb AFK PvPIO farming without addressing drop rates and demandOriginally Posted by Tokyo
I'd like to propose that we keep the devs out of our market discussions. Not sure about anyone else but I'd prefer not to have a Market i13.
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*getting popcorn and waiting when thread devolves into accusing "bunch of RPers playing tanks with shields or catgirls w/e who purple out their toons even if they don't need it"*
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Quote:IIRC he is EB with AV's HPOriginally Posted by Carnifax
Does he still con as a boss? I remember one team we had where I rolled the mouse over his Health Bar. "Holy crap, he's got 1000s of HP, he's no boss".
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Tankless MoSTF 48:44
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RE: OP
I think, root of hate is in the fact that marketeers injecting themselves as the middlemen into supply/demand chain. IMO this hate has nothing to do with understanding of market and/or economy.
But being the subject of hate, the marketeers automatically become subject of blame (right or wrong) for any problems with market haters might have.
Somehow, I doubt that you would be feeling love to self-imposed middlemen in RL. Unless, of cause, these middlemen provide some "added value" that is important to you.
While some (maybe many) middlemen are important and necessary, many are just imposed on us by society, regulations, traditions, etc., and are rather impediment or parasite with zero or very small added value.
In CoX the marketeers are self-imposed middlemen.
What added value is provided by marketeers? Someone tried to represent "the renting of market slots" by marketeers as added value. Without any numeric data to support it, I highly doubt it. I see it only as a self-serving excuse.
But don't get me wrong. I don't blame marketeers for current state the market.
While marketeers somewhat change market dynamics (see Arcana's post), they cannot change market trends. Market trends are changed only by supply and demand (AE, more inf, faster leveling, drop rates, etc.) -
Quote:Burkholder, Nosferatu, Maestro and Vandal as wellOriginally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Arakhn and Requiem were with the 5th before the Council.
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Quote:Originally Posted by Scientist
I don't know if anyone has duoed the STF, but I'd be rather surprised if they have, as I've never seen a team of 6 finish it successfully (I'm sure speciality teams of 5 defenders and a tank have managed, but I"m talking mostly PUGs here).
STF duo: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=200219
Also, I saw pics of Kahlan's solo RSF, but don't remeber what thread it was posted in. -
I want to be able slot mah purples at level 1... What
