NinjaMonkey

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Are we talking about PvP here or did you just try and solo Requiem at level 10?

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Yea, is this a PvP rant? If so, then what exactly would a melee AT with low defenses and stealth (Stalkers) hope to accomplish in PvP beyond just getting crushed? Also, I've been on the receiving end of an AS before as a squishy and many times I live.

I'm not an SR expert like some (I think mine is level 23 atm) but to me it would make more sense conceptually to have DEF increase and not RES. I know many think that the problem with DEF is ... well ... only having DEF but I like having sets with a "strong suit" so you kind of live by the sword and die by the sword. I'd prefer to have something like:

def based set
res based set
def with small res
res with small def

To me this promotes more unique play and experience. This is especially true when you pick a set that is pure def or pure res. These players accept having a main strength knowing that they are giving up versatility. A pure res set is great until it runs into something with -RES. A pure def set is great until it goes against something with insane ACC, or it gets unlucky. Those who don't want to live on the edge and prefer to hedge their bets can take one of the hypbrid sets. It's something like has kept me drawn to CoH and something I'd like to see continue. Though I bet many disagree with a pure DEF set.

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With Enhancement Diversification comes a benefit for ALL City of Heroes powers.

Every power, across the board, is getting a 13.33% reduction in its Endurance cost.

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Are we getting an XP boost too like the one in I5? You know, you convinced us that making the game harder in I5 wouldn't make it longer so you increased the bonuses. So with ED we take a hit in our capacity, which makes the game harder, which will make it longer unless you give us another XP boost.

Using the numbers from Circeus I came up with my own analysis of Ice and Inv. These are his effective numbers which include a crowd of foes and full enhancements:

As an Ice tanker you get:
44% of the Inv def for S/L
44% of the Inv def for Energy
44% of the Inv def for Negative
13% of the Inv def for Cold
13% of the Inv def for Fire

0% of the Inv res for S/L
0% of the Inv res for Energy
0% of the Inv res for Negative
88% of the Inv res for Fire
72% of the Inv res for Toxic

As an Inv tanker you only get:
40% of the Ice res for Cold

The Inv tanker is grossly superior to the Ice tanker in everything but Cold RES. The Inv tanker even beats the Ice tanker in DEF !!!! The entire reason for zero or low RES on Ice was the DEF should compensate. But, if I got the numbers right, the Ice tanker takes a backseat to the Inv tanker in DEF too. To make it worse, Inv beats Ice in DEF by a large amount. So if Ice can't get some good RES values because of it's high DEF, then tell me why Inv gets high RES values AND it gets high DEF?

I'm one of the few who doesn't think all sets should be equal but a set should have SOME advantage to distinguish it. Superior Ice RES is not even close to being an advantage.

I won't even begin to address whether or not the Ice tanker can do his job. I'll leave that alone.

I should note that I play an Inv tanker that I really enjoy so I have a vested interest in protecting Inv. But this latest "technical scramble to balance things" is so poorly thought out that I find myself trying to help the Ice tanker cause. Why? Because I'd like to defend Cryptic on it's other decisions in I5, but this one is so far off that I don't think I can have faith in your decisions, or your visions, anymore. Which is sad because I will be joining the negative doomsayers who I try so very hard to discourage.

If you had the time I think you should trash the entire DEF thing and change it to RES. So instead of getting a DEF buff for each target you get a RES buff. Then give Ice some minor base RES like 20% to just survive.

I felt bad about my post so I tried to run some numbers myself. I'm not sure I have the numbers right but using the spreadsheet I think this is how Ice stacks to Inv when you use the "Effective" totals (foes + enhancers).

As an Ice tanker you get:
44% of the Inv def for S/L
44% of the Inv def for Energy
44% of the Inv def for Negative
13% of the Inv def for Cold
13% of the Inv def for Fire

0% of the Inv res for S/L
0% of the Inv res for Energy
0% of the Inv res for Negative
88% of the Inv res for Fire
72% of the Inv res for Toxic

The good news?
As an Inv tanker you only get:
40% of the Ice res for Cold

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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One shotting by AV's. In a word, you are ALL correct. It's not a good thing for an Ice Tanker to be leveled by a single blow. So we're going back and changing the damage done by AV's so that it's no longer possible for a Tanker to be one shotted.

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Most of the time I post I defend you guys but when I heard you were doing this I find myself asking the same question about what you guys inhale in your breakroom.

Why do you seem to be obsessed with whacking the entire game across the board when one set is out of line?

If Ice tankers are inferior to others in AV fights, changing AVs will help the Ice tanker but it also boosts everyone else. Aren't you trying to reset the balance in the game with I5 across the board? So why did you just make life easier for every other set in the game? You just ruined any balance you established

I'm sorry for the rant but it really seems like:

a) You are knee jerking with some fixes.
b) You have some hidden agenda when it comes to boosting a set like Ice.

Want to know something sad? I don't even play an Ice tanker. But I see all the numbers and I just can't help but wonder what the heck you guys have against the set. There isn't a logical explaination anymore so I have to resort to illogical ones.

Just like most of the issues that I5 is supposed to fix you are again whacking away with a Buggs Bunny sized sledgehammer on the entire game (pets, def reduction, AE reduction) instead of adjusting the overpowered sets and/or boosting the difficulty of the mission sliders. What possible business reason can you have for making game wide changes when other possibilities exist?

This is just me but I prefer the spreadsheet showing the DEF and RES to the numbers you posted in the thread showing the damage.

There is a long post in the defender forum that is going on how FF is royally screwed in I5. To support that theory the poster is including figures on how many more hits both the FF defender and the teammates are taking when running the same missions live and I5. It shows similar increases in hits and damage that, on paper, make your jaw drop.

Basically, everyone looks and says "How can an increase of 300% (or whatever) in damage be balanced?" The problem is that the entire purpose of I5 was to make it harder and cut DEF so we all take a beating. So all the poster was proving was that when you reduce the DEF that FF has, you get hit more often and take more damage. I think everyone already knew that would happen.

Now your test isn't about live vs test but the numbers are trying to show a similar conclusion. Taking more damage doesn't mean you are going to faceplant constantly or become totally useless. As you take damage you adjust accordingly and keep going, unless it's just way too much. But showing an increase in damage taken doesn't always lead to the conclusion that you will suffer 300% more since that damage is over a period of time most likely.

I just find more value in the charts that show the base numbers and the numbers adjusted for #mobs in melee. I mean, I didn't have to read much more beyond the Inv 100% def bonus vs the 48% Ice def bonus. I look at the RES numbers and say to myself "ok I expected that but I'm sure the def side will correct the differentce", which of course didn't happen at all. To me, that tells the tale right there. If Ice is supposed to be more about DEF than RES, shouldn't at LEAST be the best at DEF than the other tanker sets?

As a side note, I found the term "hits" to be misleading. It looks like you're really talking damage in those columns but I see that and think it means # of hits taken. It would be nice to have both values - looks like # of hits or # of misses isn't on the spreadsheet.

Hope you don't mind my nitpicking. You should feel good about doing the work to put this together.

I've often said that there is no way to please people in a game forum. I think Cryptic should either not reply at all or hire a PR group to do all the talking. But you know what? Then people would complain about no response or not getting to the devs. So Cryptic lets people like States post and reply but then people complain about his tone. There is no way for Cryptic to win.

Sadly I'm one of the few who gets this. That's why I just roll my eyes when I see people posting "Did you see that States used the word crying in his post? Can you believe that?!" The same people would scream if you said nothing.

Good luck to your brother and all others in the services who are in harms way.

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Wet Ice - six slotted with Defense SO's - provides about 3% defense.

Energy Absorption similarly slotted provides 3% per target (so a maximum of 42%).

*caveat - I'm doing this stuff from memory, so I'll doublecheck it and repost later if I'm wrong.*

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I'm going to go on a limb and ask something here. Does it make any sense to even have a bonus under 3%? Do you really think it will even be noticed? I'm not sure there should even been any bonuses under 5%!! And it takes 6 slots to hit 3%? Do you think that 6 slots for 3% is a worthy investment? I don't care if it's Ice Tanks or Regen Scrappers or Illusion Controllers, I would suggest you try running a power with a 3% bonus and then running it again without the bonus to see if you can tell. I mean really, why bother plugging the number into the code at all?

The absolute worst part about this is that some poor soul may actually try to 6 slot the power because they didn't see this posts or read the forums. I pity that player who spends slots on the power, saves up influence in the 20s and 30s to keep it updated with SOs, only to sit there and wonder why they don't seem to get any DEF bonus from it. Until the day someone tells them and they feel like a complete fool.

Look, if you insist on putting in bonuses that are 1% base, do the non-forum browsing player a favor and take away the ability to enhance it. I still think it's a total waste of coding cycles to even have that number in the calculations. The only thing that could be worse is if some poor player actually wasted time and effort to 6 slot such a power.

Pardon the sarcasm but if you really don't want the players to herd anymore then why does the monkey badge exist with such an insanely high arrest count?

I know you guys get a lot of grief along the lines of "Do you even play an XYZ build?", but "Have you tried to spend a few hours getting your monkey badge even with herding?" Do you consider it balance or fun with herding? It will only get worse without.

On the off chance a dev will read this I will add my opinion.

I still think this "defenders aren't needed in late game stuff is overblown". Technically, who is needed in the late game? Maybe a tanker or a scrapper to help start each battle but after that you don't really need anyone. AV fights become more popular but do you really need a scrapper or blaster for an AV fight?

If you want to get down to bare minimum then Blasters, Scrappers and Defenders aren't needed in the late game. You can get by just fine with Tankers and Controllers. So should we adjust to "fix" this? No. Why? Because that's just trying to find the bare minimum. When defenders (or any AT) don't help or add to the team then you can adjust. Late in the game most players have their attack speed and endurance issues taken care of but it seems like Speed Boost is still able to make the game go faster and help the player focus on their favorite attacks.

The strangest thing about this is that when I run with an all defender or 90% defender team in the 40+ game we just demolish things. The speed and safety of the fights is just sick and wrong. It feels like we are cheating it's so easy. And yet, we're supposed to feel that we're unwanted? If you want to make the game tougher that's fine but please don't feel like Defenders dont' contribute.

FWIW, I still think the worst change the devs ever made was putting -RES into Tar Patch. All you did was make Dark more like Storm and Rad. If this trend continues I will lose interest in the game because the sets will be less unique. Dark used to be the controller like set that was very defensive. Everyone was ok with that because what we lacked in offensive we made up for in defense. You traded damage for security. Now, you have that security plus you boost damage. The lines between Rad and Storm were more blurred. Worst part is that it wasn't necessary. You might as well give FF, Emp and Kin a -RES power because it makes just as much sense as giving it to Dark (zero).

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that's a tough one. I'm looking hard at Power Buildup as an EP as well. But just out of curiousity, with 6 damage SO's in an attack power, on top of FS and SP, will I already be reaching the defender damage cap? If not then PBU sounds good. I'm not a numbers expert so no idea.

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Depends on the mob size. You may want to check Ladioss_Sop's guide. I think there's a chart in there on what it takes to reach the cap.

What you could do is reduce your damage slots to compensate. If you have limited slots then you can just count on Fulcrum and PBU to compensate for the slots you don't put in for damage. I don't know where you would put them but it's an option that sounds fun.

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What do you suggest for lower level say though 20 given the I3 update?

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I don't think I3 changed any of my previous suggestions. Kinetics has been made better because of I3 (Siphon Power and Fulcrum Shift are better as is the heal of Transfusion). I think all the stratetiges and thoughts that I suggested still apply.

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What about the new Epic powers? Are you going to change the build to roll something in at 41?

My kin/psy build at 36 has kick/tough/weave instead of leadership and I bypassed Stamina. I am starting to look at putting Stamina into the build and running the leadership toggles looks promising too.

If you redo the guide for Epic powers it might be nice to include powers by level. With Stamina in the mix you may run into some sticky situations on what power to take when.

I wanted to tag this thread and also add a question. At 15 with my DDD I'm enjoying Howling Twilight. Since it's early it's hard to tell how useful it will be later but one thing I found strange was the supposed END REC aspect. Maybe I just need to wait for SO but right now I don't see this power helping with my end recovery.

I'm debating whether or not to make this part of my disorient / hold powers. I will of course get TT but right now I really like Dark Pit. I was thinking that with Hasten and maybe some recharge enhancers I could make HT part of an attack cycle were I keep the mob either held or disoriented. The end recovery would be awesome but right now I just don't see it happening at all.

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By contract, Buffs from the same caster and the same power on the same target do not stack. However, ALL buffs on one target, will stack if they come from a different caster, or from the same caster but a different power.

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Does this mean I should bug Siphon Power?

It is the same buff from the same caster yet it will stack with itsenf for about 2s. And yes, I have confirmed it with damage numbers as well as the graphics. For 2 attacks after the 2nd Siphon Power they will do more damage than the rest of the attacks which have only one Siphon Power applied which, in turn, has more than the base attack.

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I had not noticed that. I can test it next time I'm on. I might be able to stack siphon powers still. I assumed that each application was a -25% to target damage. If not, I would say it's a bug.

At 32 I can say that it's getting better but I can't compete with a blaster. The problem with MoG is that it adds to +DEF and I have trouble just hitting. It's also hard to compete with a Nova like power where the entire room just falls.

I think it will get better as I progress. I should get more attacks maxed out and hopefully more mobs will be vulnerable to Psychic.

One bad thing, it's a major kick to the crotch when you face something that is Psy resistant like BP. You struggle all this way and then someone is resistant to your meager attacks. Like I didn't struggle before?!! Geessshhh. Give me a break.

I'm not sure about parry.

The rad attacks might stack debuff but the debuff duration is so short I think it's be a waste. In that specific situation you'd probably be better off with damage.

I'm not positive but there may be some debuffs that don't stack. However, I can't think of any right now. You might just have to search the AT specific forum for your question on a specific power.

You have to be more specific. Some debuffs do stack. For example, with kinetics, I can siphon power multiple times. If I hit a target twice they get -50% dmg (-25 plus -25). It also stacks the buff for +40% dmg (+20 plus +20) to me and those near me.

Bump and adding to the list of thanks for this guide. I also have a question and didn't want to clog up the board with a new post.

Any kin/psy players want to share their thoughts? I've read how a few of the powers aren't great for kinetics because of aggro but I wanted to know what others are doing. The more I play my kinetic guy the more I think psy was a horrible choice. I typically put myself near the melee for heal, siphon power, and ID. If I pick up Psychic Scream at 14 (which was my plan) I could end up eating dirt. But, at level 13 I only have MB and Lance and it's really hard to solo and I don't get to help offensively very much.

After a long session in Boomtown, I'm thinking that I should look to travel power pools at 14 (what a long walk that was) and waiting until 16 to add to my offense with TB.

Thank goodness for this guide. Like someone else I thought TB would be like the FF power and wasn't going to get it.