Myrmydon

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I think its everybody except Statesman and the rest of the devs that agree to this. That's my concern. Its like he has tunnel vision and Tankers are outside of his realm of focus.

Statesman pretty much implies by his example that his performance is as expected. That's fairly sad. Even worse that he knows he's operating with a bugged power that's providing too much buff, and he's still trying to pass off his performance as a good thing.

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It really is sad, Circeus. And being a user of that very same power, I am worried about what will happen to Invul if they think that what we get from Invinc currently is a bug. Ah well, [censored] minus [censored] is still [censored], no matter how you add it up.

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Point taken, Da5id. Sometimes I have gotten real frustrated over the past year, especially during the arguments over herding when I brought this up and had myself shouted down. I guess I feel vindicated in some sort of really sorry way.

Do you remember how bad tanks were at launch and under I1? We got our major buffs in I2. What I remember is *nerfs* to the tanker set beginning with I3 (including the end of perma-unstoppable.) I figure that was when they realized that the game was broken (again, that coincides with the November date.)

You are right about when they decided on this being irrelevant to the question at hand, however.

I also am getting more and more convinced that it will not be us who defines the new tank. There's just too much history here. We can't even agree on what the definition was for the old tank.

I also have to say that I think you may be right about other ATs filling our spot on a team contributing more than we do. I'd like to see some hard numbers from teams running the same mission over and over again on test, but taking the intuitive approach, it seems like it may be true.

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Tom, you post as if you and De5id are the only ones here that remember tanking before now. You are a quite mistaken if that is the case. I was there through I1 and every issue since. I wouldn't call what they gave us in I2 to be "buffs". The changes to Tanker Knockback was a "give the AT a remote change of doing what it was designed to do" fix more than anything. And, when I3 came and brought the death of the that virtual exploit, "perma-unstoppable" I remember all of the crying and whining about how "broken" Invul was then. (Which turned out to be total BS, btw ) I agree with you that Tankers have been way overpowered from I3 to I5, but the Dev's idea for the AT has shifted too far in the other direction.

You are saying that the new generation of tankers will define us, but I don't think that will be the case. I think we define what we are as an AT within the scope of what the Devs give us to work with. However, Da5id is right about our role being taken over by other ATs. They have always been able to to so and can easily supplant us in teams now if they wish. I3 gave us the illusion that team needed us and now we are upset when we learn that they nver did to begin with. In all honesty, if the current "vision" of Tanks is for us to be the odd AT out, then I suggest that everyone move to a different AT and don't waste your time on Tankers.

However, that is not what you wanted in this thread, Tom. what you wanted was an idea of what our role in a team is. Our role is to control aggro as much as we can. No other AT can quite do it as well as we can, supposedly. Now, take you "been around since launch, pat yourself on the back" experience and prove or disprove it. I can. Can you?

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I mean no disrespect to those who crunch the numbers. But I am saying that if I were not a board hound myself, I would not know that a supported Scrapper could occupy 17 enemies at once as well as a supported Tanker can.

...they can?

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Kit, Statesman isn't handling 17 mobs in a spawn, he is handling 1/3, which is much less than a 7 player mission on Rugged generates. Scrappers can easily get the aggro of 1/3 of that spawn. Trust me, I have done it myself to prove that it can be done. No Tanks were there when I brought my Invul scrapper from 35 to 50, (which from 43 on, WAS ED Compliant and she hit hit 50 before ED was even active, btw. ) And the sad part is, it doesn't require all that much to do so either. The other day, I was in a tean with U-mann and he controlled MUCH MORE than 1/3 of the spawns from both Carnies AND the Asylum mission (which contains TWO Psi AVs). And when things got really crazy, my BS/Invul scrapper Tanked two +2 MIs with a single Empath backing me up so well, it was like having a Hamidon healing blanket. She was so damn good, that I even commented on it in team. (which is something I reserve for the those that I feel are truly worth it) Play your Icer, learn what you can, and have fun, but for Christ's sake, DON'T fanboi these Devs (who obviously have NO IDEA what they are talking about) to the rest of us that know better.

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The Devs effed up on the Tank AT from the beginning and they've never figured out a way to make it work properly.

"Tanks were meant to be aggro managers" - so they gave them single-target Taunt and slightly increased threat in their attacks? Meanwhile, they could also get >100% RES.

The design was broken from the start, and every subsequent change has been made in an attempt to figure out how they should work.

So never mind the "November to May" period, and the unfortunately high-horse tone of your post, Tanks have never worked the way their design intended, and their intended design has changed just as often.

Frankly, like I said previously, the Devs should just take some of that "Screw you if you don't like I5 or ED" courage and redo the entire Tank AT. Make it something that works and feels comic-booky, and doesn't look like a Scrapper that prefers to be hit than to hit things.

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You know, for months I disagreed with Foo, but I find myself agreeing with him now.

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Players who do not come to the boards (and who do not remember the 'old days') will not kick Tankers out of their group for Tanking one-third to one-half of a spawn. They will see that as the Tankers' fair share.


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This will be the case until they see a true Tanker in action, then they will KNOW what a Tanker is capable of and will KNOW whether the "Tanker" on their team is a benefit or just taking up a slot. If we are moving toward this sorry level of Tanking that Stateman shows himself capable of (and you yourself agree to), then dump the AT, add it into the Scrapper AT, and give us a new CoH one to replace it. Because, mark my words, if this sorry example that Stateman shows is the one that is accepted as Tanking by the gaming communtiy, then do everyone in the game a favor and DELETE your Tankers right here and now because you will be nothing but an xp leech in a team setting. Now, say what you like, Kitsune, but the fact of the matter is, you might want to listen to what the players that have invested thousands of hours in this game say over some Dev who can create a toon at any level and play might say. The Devs don't possess the skills that are learned playing this game over countless hours here. They don't even play the same game that we do. So, championing their subpar skills will just give them the incentive to destroy our AT instead of giving it the balance that it does not currently have. And if just leeching off of a team is the future of Tanking, then let me know so that I can delete mine and play a character that fits more into the forced teaming aspect of the game that these desingers want us to play by.


Kistune, put some more time into that Icer of yours, then come back and talk to us. Until then, play the game, learn something, and don't try to show your [censored] to people that know better.

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Statesman thinks that tanking 33% of an 8-man spawn is satisfactory.

He thinks that tanking 100% of an 8-man spawn is too much.

He thinks that dropping to 33% of your hp while tanking an 8-man spawn of Carnies is a little more punishment than you should take, but acceptable.

He beleives that tanking double 'your share' of a spawn is good, and that a Tanker should be able to do that better than any other AT.

His avatar is a Tanker.

He thinks that losing 2 players during a mission is unfortunate but acceptable.

Tankers have the highest combination of defensive powers and hp of any AT, and the best aggro management tools of any AT.

...I find it hard to find fault with these numbers, actually. I was testing an Ice/Ice on Champion ("IceNine") up until I got caught up in the CoV testing, and I am by no means a 'career Tanker' (She's my highest Tanker at 22), but I was definitely having fun tanking.

I don't think that Tankers are perfect. I don't think they are done being developed as an AT. But I don't think the role he envisions for them is too far off the mark.

- A Tanker should not be a better soloer than a Scrapper. As good, maybe, but not better.

- A Tanker tanking for a team should take less damage from more aggro than any other single character. Yet, he should not be able to handle the whole spawn without help.

- A Team should want a Tanker along to take the aggro. But they should not need one so badly that they can't go out without one.

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Kitsune, you seem to be new to tanking and Ice as well, so I will only say this. If an Invul Tanker cannot effectively handle 17 mobs (which is our current aggro control cap) with the tools we currently posses by level 32, then delete that character and play a completely different AT. You are doing any team you join a terrible disservice otherwise.

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I'd like to add that I can teach the Scranker way as well. The main difference in his approach and my approach is I pick what dies and how quick I will make it happen.

An Inv Scranker doesn't pick the weakest minion he can find that does S/L. A Scranker looks at the mob and picks the biggest threat to the team. If there is an AV guess who I go straight at after hitting haste/rage/build up/conserve power/2-3 lucks/1-3 rage/etc. It isn't going to be a minion. I'll be straight up in the face of anyone from Antimatter to Tyrant.

A cowardly tank is a shame on all the tanks great and small.

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See, even the Scranks will take pity on States and help him. And I was pointedly leaving out the shame part, Gideon, but by all means add it in.

For all of you that want to get the Tanker community galvanized into helping each other, helping States may be the best way to do it.

Some people only learn that way, da5id.

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Tankers manage aggro better than any other Archetype. They also have the highest combination of hit points and defenses in the game. Their role is to take the brunt of a spawn's aggro just long enough in order for the rest of the team to be able to eliminate the mobs.

Should a skilled Tanker be able to corral EVERY mob? With a lot of skill, it should be possible - but it's certainly not required to be a good Tank. As long as the Tanker can hold onto aggro so that his teammates are facing less than they'd normally face (i.e. 3 minions), then the team has an advantage. Namely, each teammate can quickly eliminate his opposition...and then come to the Tanker's aid at the end.

I just played a Tanker with the following group (actually, at the request of a PM)...

Inv/Fire tanker (32, SKed to 49)
Level 50 Elec/Elec Blaster (it was his mission, set on Rugged)
Level 32 Peacebringer (SKed to 48 or so).
Level 48 MA/Inv scrapper
Level 50 Fire/Kin controller
Level 35 Earth/empathy controller (SKed up to 48)
Level 49 Energy/energy blaster

We faced the Carnival of Shadows. Typically, I'd start combat by Taunting any Strongmen in the spawn. I knew that I could handle their damage best. I'd usually catch some other minions and lts. I'd end up with a good 1/3 of the spawn focused on me, while the rest of my group disposed of the others. Whenever I saw a teammate enter the red, I'd either Taunt the mobs off them or hit the mobs to get their aggro.

End result? Well, no one was that familiar with their builds. The Controller was defeated by getting too close to another spawn. The Peacebringer carelessly tossed off attacks and ended up aggroing too much. After those two defeats, we settled down and functioned fine.

Admittedly, my own health dropped down to a 1/3 several times. I'd get a little concerned, but usually I had Dull Pain ready.

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Sorry Tom, but after reading Statesman’s post in this thread, I cannot let is pass without comment.

WARNING: The post made by Statesman regarding Tanking is a terrible example of Tanker skill. Please do not follow the above method unless you enjoy soloing or being kicked from teams a lot. There are plenty of people out there that will do so, so be warned.


If this is your example of Tanking, Statesman, then you need serious help. You are playing an Invul/Fire with access to at least two AoEs, a cone, Taunt, and (hopefully) Invinc, and the best you can come up with is 1/3 of the aggro in a 7 player mission set to Rugged??? Did you learn anything at all about Tanking in those 32 levels or is this one of those artificially PLed characters that you Devs play in your test environment? I can surely put forward one thing for the benefit of new Tankers that are looking for advice: Do NOT use this example as your guide to Tanking. I play a Broadsword/Invul Scrapper that can grab aggro and Tank better than you can with the support you want tanks to have now. And that’s WITHOUT the passives that you pretty much destroyed in the last few issues. If I can do that on a Scrapper, why on Earth would I ever bring you to my team? There is a very old saying, States, that pertains to this post of yours here:


When the pupil is ready, the master will appear


Are you ready to learn how to Tank, States? There are plenty of us that can show you. I am glad that you have finally come to the forums seeking advice on your skills. Now, post your build so that we can help you and give you the advice you need. Believe me, the first time you really Tank, you really won’t want to go back to what you are doing now. Take our advice and let us help you. Your teams will love you for it. And if you decide to disregard our advice and keep playing this way, then you might as well delete your "Tank" and choose another AT entirely. Your teams would be better off if you did.

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No, it is PvP only. It should have no effect at all on PvE.

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Well, it would explain the crappy Accuracy we seem to be suffering from lately if there is a bug.

And yes, patch notes on "stealth nerfs" would be a nice thing for you to do. EvilGeko hits that nail on the head.

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Yeesh. He really is masochistic lately.

Jack, don't poke your playerbase RIGHT BEFORE you go touring. It ain't healthy. Some of these kids, they're so full of crap that it's messing with their judgement. They're liable to do anything, including taking a swing at your for "ruining" their favorite game.

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I have to agree wit hthe Journeyman on this one, States. Not everyone who might disagree with you will be able to distinguish fantasy from reality. My suggestion would be to rent the Popemobile. That should keep you safe enough to post all of the wisecracks you like.

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If there was actually a number counter for the active population you'd find that the number of players has actually risen quite sharply.

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Just look at how many instanced zones are in CoV when you play to really see that the game population has increased significantly.

Why is the cap only 20k per member anyway? This basically says that all the time we have played our heroes doesn't even count for anything in having a base. At the rate that we gain prestige, it will take forever to get a decent base. And I don't care if it's not fair to the villians. That falls into the "too damn bad" catagroy. CoH was here first. Let us make our bases and give us more prestige. I believe after all of the crap we have been through since release, we have earned it.

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How about taking the fear out of burn then. As is it is useless.

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Agreed totally.

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Q4: Do I start with any Prestige?
A4: All supergroups get a "kicker" of 20,000 Prestige per member up to 15, for a total of 300,000 possible "free" Prestige. If you have gotten this free Prestige and your supergroup membership drops BELOW 15, you will lose 20,000 Prestige for each member that departs. If your membership increases again, you regain the 20,000.

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Apparently there is a bug that makes this not happen. I have 4 SG afilliates and none of the mstarted with any prestige, while a friend's SG had 300K. I have bugged it several times, nor am I the only one this is happening to.

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OK...here's what Chilling Embrace ONCE did...

-0.4 to Recharge

We changed it to...

-.32 to Recharge
-.07 to Damage (thought it was .1, to be honest)

Needless to say, Circeus is right - it's a mild nerf! Eek.

We checked a change in so that Chillling Embrace will NOW be:

-.32 to Recharge
-.14 to Damage

I'll post tomorrow explaining these numbers...

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Looks like they did "hire" you after all, Circeus.

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No thanks. I've been out of the video game industry for a while now, I doubt they could afford me based on industry salaries.

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I'll doublecheck the numbers today and post something in this thread (hopefully today).

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Maybe you should just hire Circeus to work on the Ice Armor set.

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Tonight was a busy night so lets see:

Celestial Lad
AceMACE
Lothriel
Vampire Lord (and several Vampire Nation folks)
Myrm
KaliMagdalene


and a bunch of other non-posters.

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Was alot of fun duo-tanking with you, Mal. You adapt to a partner well.

You wouldn't by any chance give me an Archtype respec, would you? If I am to be a crappy Scrapper instead of a Tank, might as well just be a Scrapper. Either that or retweak how aggro control works Tankers. Also, the option for more Respecs would be a nice change of pace. Would show that you at least listen to us occasionally now.

I do NOT look forward to I6.

It's about [censored] [censored] time! I stopped taking CoT missions during the Earth Caster range. The stacking they do with Quicksand is just rediculous and was irritating enough to just skip that crap.

Thanks for the info, little green lizard creature.

Myrmydon
Champion Server

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NAME: Myrmydon
POWERS: INV/SS (Magic)
ORIGIN: Amanda Chalice was born to affluent parents in Seattle, Washington. She had a very normal childhood and was loved by her parents. The Chalice family loved to travel and spent every summer on the road, seeing the sites of America. Her home life couldn't be more stable and she was very happy. Unfortunately, all of that was about to change.

When Amanda turned thirteen, the Chalice family went on a trip to Los Angelos for her birthday. Amanda was ready to see the sights and maybe find a star or two for autographs. As they navigated through the countryside among the cliffs, a motorcycle driver hit a bump in the road and plowed into the Chalice automobile at high speed. Amanda's father lost control of the wheel and the car was sent tumbling down the cliff face near the road. It tumbled to the bottom of a ravine and exploded, killing both of Amanda's parents. It was at this point that her mystical abilities came to life.

Unharmed by the fall or the explosion, Amanda tore her way out of the wreckage as if it were made of paper. Amanda then collapsed to the ground, crying in fits of hysteria. She was taken in by her Godfather, Thomas Wright, a worlock and old friend of the family. He worked hard to help her come to terms with the death of her parents and to learn how to control her newfound abilities.

Thomas Wright found that Amanda's body acted as a resevoir of mystical energy. As Amanda matured, she changed from a small, thin waif into a voluptuous powerhouse. Amanda found that she could tap into her stored mystical energy to gain great strength and resistance to injury. Remembering the ideas of her father, to always help those who need it, Amanda decided to make her way to Paragon City to help those in need. She took on the name of Myrmydon, A nickname given to her by Thomas Wright. As the Myrmydon, Amanda battles to protect the weak and ensure the safety of the people of Paragon.

* The option to change the colors and the symbol of the SG.

* An automatic drop function for anyone that has not logged into their character in 30 consecutive days, including Leaders. Or, give leaders the option to kick other leaders after the 30 consecutive days are up.

* A Headquarters for the SG. This could function similar to the Dance Club.

* Repair of the SG window. Right now, most of the options for viewing don’t function properly.

* Extension of the SG number of members or allow the SG to link with other SGs for chat purposes. This could be another option for a chat channel that we can link to or maybe have several of. Or, change the SG membership to account status instead of just character status.

* An /Ignore SG option. This will allow players to ignore an entire SG membership if they choose.

* A separate SG costume option that could be standardized and changed by the SG leader.

* SG contact that gives only content; Task Forces, Trials, and Story Arcs.

Statesman,
The original penalty on Rage made it situational at best. This complete Endurance drain penalty makes it worthless. I don't use it now because of the penalty and I definitely won't use it with its current change.

What would be the problem with giving us Build Up as well? There comes a point where game consistancy and fun has to be applied above concept. The Build Up tweak would solve all of our issues, even as our damage stands right now, IMO.